Blame it on Bernhard!

[barnowl]

Extremely rude, Inga and DS.


I reported your posts and I sincerely hope the two of you are severely punished.

[ingagroznaya]

Kak ti mozesh tak picat? Shto c tvoim komputerom, kak ti eto delaesh. Mnogo tvoih studentov paranoidni? V kakom plane?

I use piano keys to type. After playing lotsa Cherny that's how it normally comes out. Your piano does not type the same?

It was Baby Fish Translator, Debussy. If you want to add Russian to your computer, there is an easy way. You can add "stickers " to the keyboard you have, add Russian language as an option in Windows ( if it's windows) and you can type your heart out. Stickers covers half of the key, so if you do already have two alphabets on yours, it probably would not work. I don't know...
You can buy those stickers on the net for about 5 bucks, if you search russian websites.

My students are not any more or less paranoid than I am. One thing is clear - we are all deeply confused here.

[mephisto]

Philosophy no. 2 (the Gourmet school of piano playing – you may even eat Brocolli, as long as you love it).

In this school, you only play pieces you love. (which may even include Czerny). Fortunately the piano repertory is so vast, that there is no need to play any piece one does not like.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

Based on this philosphy, that I share with you, I started to learn the 1st mwt of Alkan`s sonatine. I know that I will not be able to play this piece up to  tempo(three eight notes=132). I may be able to play it put to something like 110-120. Is it smart to play pieces you know you wount be able to play up to full tempo?

[ingagroznaya]

Extremely rude, Inga and DS.


I reported your posts and I sincerely hope the two of you are severely punished.

by playing Hanon for a year and nothing else .

Come on, Barnowl!  I am as confused as you are. A day before this silly thread started I posted something on the subject of exercise ....about some potential students I've met who love exercises more then actual music.  And then a day after I read this spooky conversation between Bernhard and Debussy.

As much as we all love Bernhard ( me included ), he sometimes responds to his own posts.
Read the comment about his cooking skills. It was so out of the blue. But then I am paranoid, what can I say? Bernhard does not speak russian or does he? I'm genuinely confused. Please, Branowl, take it lighthearted. I don't mean to offend anyone. I really don't. I just feel some of the posts here are not genuine in one way or another, while some are.

[bernhard]

I'm genuinely confused.

These days, if one is not confused, one is not thinking clearly.

I just feel some of the posts here are not genuine in one way or another, while some are.

I believe this to be a good development. It means that one has to try out and find for oneself what is true and what is not, instead of relying on authority ("Liszt said so" - "Beethoven did so" - "My teacher swears by it".)

To put a further nail on the authority coffin, what about these definite statements by a few authorities:

There is not the slightest indication that nuclear energy will ever be obtainable. It would mean the atom would have to be shattered at will.
(Albert Einstein, German-born American physicist, 1932)

"There is no likelihood that man can ever tap the power of the atom. The glib supposition of utilizing atomic energy when our coal has run out is a completely unscientific Utopian dream, a childish bug-a-boo."
(Robert Millikan, American physicist and Nobel Prize winner, 1928)

Who the hell wants to hear actors talk?
(H.M. Warner, Warner Brothers, maker of silent movies, 1927)

The radio craze will die out in time.
(Thomas Edison, American inventor, 1922)

The wireless music box has no imaginable commercial value. Who would pay for a message sent to nobody in particular?
(David Sarnoff, American radio pioneer, 1921)

Professor Goddard does not know the relation between action and reaction and the need to have something better than a vacuum against which to react. He seems to lack the basic knowledge ladled out daily in high schools.
(New York Times editorial about Robert Goddard's revolutionary rocket work, 1921 - note that the day after Armstrong walked on the moon in 1969, the New York Times printed a short boxed item on page 2. It read in full: "Errata: It has now been conclusively demonstrated that a rocket ship can travel through the vacuum of space. The Times sincerely regrets the error.")

Taking the best left-handed pitcher in baseball and converting him into a right fielder is one of the dumbest things I ever heard.
(Tris Speaker, baseball expert, talking about Babe Ruth, 1919)
 
The idea that cavalry will be replaced by these iron coaches is absurd. It is little short of treasonous.
 (Comment of Aide-de-camp to Field Marshal Haig, at tank demonstration, 1916)

Caterpillar landships are idiotic and useless. Those officers and men are wasting their time and are not pulling their proper weight in the war.
(Fourth Lord of the British Admiralty, 1915)

Lee DeForest has said in many newspapers and over his signature that it would be possible to transmit the human voice across the Atlantic before many years. Based on these absurd and deliberately misleading statements, the misguided public ... has been persuaded to purchase stock in his company ...
(U.S. District Attorney, prosecuting Lee DeForest, American radio pioneer, for selling stock fraudulently through the mail for his Radio Telephone Company, 1913)

That the automobile has practically reached the limit of its development is suggested by the fact that during the past year no improvements of a radical nature have been introduced.
(Scientific American, Jan. 2 edition, 1909)

I confess that in 1901 I said to my brother Orville that man would not fly for fifty years. Two years later we ourselves made flights. This demonstration of my impotence as a prophet gave me such a shock that ever since I have distrusted myself and avoided all predictions."
 (Wilbur Wright, American aviation pioneer, speech to the Aero Club of France, 1908)

Sensible and responsible women do not want to vote.
(Grover Cleveland, U.S. President, 1905)

The horse is here to stay, the automobile is only a fad.
(Advice of President of Michigan Savings Bank to Horace Rackham, lawyer for
Henry Ford, 1903 - Rackham ignored the advice and invested $5000 in Ford stock, selling  it later for $12.5 million)

Flight by machines heavier than air is unpractical and insignificant, if not utterly impossible.
 (Simon Newcomb, Canadian-born American astronomer, 1902)

Man will not fly for 50 years.
(Wilbur Wright, American aviation pioneer, to brother Orville, after a disappointing flying experiment, 1901 - their first successful flight was in 1903)

I am tired of all this sort of thing called science here ... We have spent millions in that sort of thing for the last few years, and it is time it should be stopped.
(Simon Cameron, U.S. Senator, on the Smithsonian Institute, 1901)

If God had intended that man should fly, he would have given him wings.
(Widely attributed to George W. Melville, chief engineer of the U.S. Navy, 1900)

The amount of misguided ingenuity which has been expended on these two problems of submarine and aerial navigation during the nineteenth century will offer one of the most curious and interesting studies to the future historian of technologic progress.
(George Sutherland, American lawyer and author of 20th Century Inventions, 1900)

It is apparent to me that the possibilities of the aeroplane, which two or three years ago were thought to hold the solution to the [flying machine] problem, have been exhausted, and that we must turn elsewhere.
(Thomas Edison, American inventor, 1895)

The more important fundamental laws and facts of physical science have all been discovered, and these are now so firmly established that the possibility of their ever being supplanted in consequence of new discoveries is exceedingly remote.... Our future discoveries must be looked for in the sixth place of decimals.
(Albert. A. Michelson, German-born American physicist, 1894)

Fooling around with alternating current is just a waste of time. Nobody will use it, ever.
(Thomas Edison, American inventor, 1889)

We are probably nearing the limit of all we can know about astronomy.
(Simon Newcomb, Canadian-born American astronomer, 1888)

The phonograph has no commercial value at all.
(Thomas Edison, American inventor, 1880s )

Such startling announcements as these should be deprecated as being unworthy of science and mischievious to its true progress.
(Sir William Siemens, on Edison's light bulb, 1880)
 
Everyone acquainted with the subject will recognize it as a conspicuous failure.
(Henry Morton, president of the Stevens Institute of Technology, on Edison's
light bulb, 1880)

... good enough for our transatlantic friends ... but unworthy of the attention of practical or scientific men.
(British Parliamentary Committee, on Edison's light bulb, 1878)

The Americans have need of the telephone, but we do not. We have  plenty of messenger boys.
 (Sir William Preece, Chief Engineer, British Post Office, 1878)

This telephone has too many shortcomings to be considered as a means of communication. The device is of inherently no value to us.
(Western Union internal memo, 1876)

The abdomen, the chest, and the brain will forever be shut from the intrusion of the wise and humane surgeon
(Sir John Eric Ericksen, British surgeon, appointed Surgeon Extraordinary to
Queen Victoria, 1873)

Louis Pasteur's theory of germs is ridiculous fiction.
(Pierre Pachet, British surgeon, Professor of Physiology at Toulouse, 1872)

It's a great invention but who would want to use it anyway?
(Rutherford B. Hayes, U.S. President, after a demonstration of Alexander Bell's telephone, 1872)

A man has been arrested in New York for attempting to extort funds from ignorant and superstitious people by exhibiting a device which he says will convey the human voice any distance over metallic wires so that it will be heard by the listener at the other end. He calls this instrument a telephone. Well-informed people know that it is impossible to transmit the human voice over wires.
(News item in a New York newspaper, 1868)

Well-informed people know it is impossible to transmit the voice over wires and that were it possible to do so, the thing would be of no practical value.
(Boston Post, 1865)

Dear Mr. President: The canal system of this country is being threatened by a new form of transportation known as 'railroads' ... As you may well know, Mr. President, 'railroad' carriages are pulled at the enormous speed of 15 miles per hour by 'engines' which, in addition to endangering life and limb of passengers, roar and snort their way through the countryside, setting fire to crops, scaring the livestock and frightening women and children. The Almighty certainly never intended that people should travel at such breakneck speed."
 (Martin Van Buren, Governor of New York, 1865(?)

No one will pay good money to get from Berlin to Potsdam in one hour when he can ride his horse there in one day for free.
(King William I of Prussia, on hearing of the invention of trains, 1864)

Drill for oil? You mean drill into the ground to try and find oil? You're crazy.
(Drillers whom Edwin L. Drake tried to enlist to his project to drill for oil, 1859)

I watched his countenance closely, to see if he was not deranged ... and I was assured by other senators after he left the room that they had no confidence in it.
(U.S. Senator Smith of Indiana, after witnessing a demonstration of Samuel Morses's telegraph, 1842)

The abolishment of pain in surgery is a chimera. It is absurd to go on seeking it...knife and pain are two words in surgery that must forever be associated in the consciousness of the patient.
 (Dr. Alfred Velpeau, French surgeon, 1839)
 
Rail travel at high speeds is not possible because passengers, unable to breathe, would die of asphyxia.
(Dionysius Lardner, Professor of Natural Philosophy and Astronomy at University College, London, and author of The Steam Engine Explained and Illustrated, 1830s)


What can be more palpably absurd than the prospect held out of locomotives traveling twice as fast as stagecoaches?
(The Quarterly Review, March edition, 1825)

What, sir, would you make a ship sail against the wind and currents by lighting a bonfire under her deck? I pray you, excuse me, I have not the time to listen to such nonsense.
(Napoleon Bonaparte, when told of Robert Fulton's steamboat, 1800s)

I would sooner believe that two Yankee professors lied, than that stones fell from the sky.
(Thomas Jefferson, U.S. President, on hearing reports of meteorites, 1790s(?)

The view that the sun stands motionless at the center of the universe is foolish, philosophically false, utterly heretical, because contrary to Holy Scripture. The view that the earth is not the center of the universe and even has a daily rotation is philosophically false, and at least an erroneous belief.
(Holy Office, Roman Catholic Church, ridiculing the scientific analysis that the Earth orbited the Sun in edict of March 5, 1616 )

The multitude of books is a great evil. There is no limit to this fever for writing; every one must be an author; some out of vanity, to acquire celebrity and raise up a name, others for the sake of mere gain.
(Martin Luther, German Reformation leader, Table Talk, 1530s(?)

...so many centuries after the Creation it is unlikely that anyone could find hitherto unknown lands of any value.
(Committee advising King Ferdinand and Queen Isabella of Spain regarding a proposal by Christopher Columbus, 1486)

The usefulness of Hanon is non-debatable.
(Lostinidlewonder)
 

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[ingagroznaya]

I failed once Etude 14 from Opus 740 on one of my exams. I mean really failed. I played it to the bridge ( it's not really a bridge, but since I can not use "midsection" ... ). I played the sucker to the middle . Without stopping, I'd come back to the beginning. 3, 4, 5 times. By round number six it was clear - I don't know where I am going. I can play it, but I can't end it.  I just CAN'T. I forgot how!!!  You'd think examinators would have stop me. Hell no. They just sat there amused and listen. I was not ready to give up either. Walking off stage on some odd note, seemed scarier then continuing. Being a typical teenager, I was so stressed by preparation, I figured -- it's either me or them.

It probably was not my most dignified performance, but surely one of the most memorable.
O dear Karl, we love you long long time!

[pianistimo]

does anyone know hanon's first name?  btw, i'm in the lostinidlewonder camp.  i don't think hanon is any worse than broccoli.  but, for beginners nowadays - the 'dozen a day' stuff is short and sweet and gets it done, too.  hanon isn't a long term project.  it's a short term march.  gets the fingers working together.  has worked on many very young students who cannot play complicated left hand passage whilst the right hand is doing something else.  take a three or four year old.  they learn the letters of the alphabet and all the sounds phonetically to be the best readers.  if you compare those small building blocks (when forgotten) with a sightreader who seems to be taking off - they will be surpassed in a few years by the one who took the time to learn the small building blocks and put them together in different ways.  you can't always go by who seems to be progressing the fastest.  sometimes progression is an illusion and the turtle wins.  (of course, sometimes turtles stay turtles, too).

on the other hand, some older students are creative thinkers (a few) and would be happy to have bernhard to allow them some freedom to basically choose what they want to play and/or make-up exercises.  (i don't doubt that lostinidlewonder is quite creative, too, and has students make up exercises or makes them up himself).  i'm not saying that one way is the only 'right' way.  there are so many paths and it's really a matter of matching up the student/parent ideals to the teacher's.  if you find you are not 'clicking' then it's time to look for someone who shares ur views.  there are so many different styles of teaching and playing.  the best thing, imo, is to listen to your teacher play and ask urself if that is the sound you want to make, the type of music that you want to play - and if you like their technique (even if they are not perfect, perfect).  some teachers are very good teachers but don't play at perfection level.  they play for fun and often can improvise and make things sound like they 'own it.'  to me, that's what piano is about.  you can either 'own' the composer's version - or have a teacher that says - go ahead, add the extra octaves.  if you have a teacher that is too strict - it's also a hinderance to creative thinking.

**the only danger to allowing a student to think they 'know it all' is when they argue about teacher's choices quite openly and don't respect the teacher.  i think if you want something totally different than your teacher is offerring - you should switch teachers.  respect is a non-negotiable thing, imo, despite the creativity factor.  if a teacher suggests one thing or another - at least TRY it.  i've been learning this myself - not to judge before i try something.  for instance, i had a teacher that taught me the rest of  rudimentary, middle level to advanced studies in about three years.  i would not trade that experience for anything - but, i use a very different approach to the keyboard now, and it works just as well if not better.  it may be that as students progress - they need to find teachers that push them onto thinking more about experimentation with sound and efficiency of practice.  if you always stay doing the same thing over and over - there is no real progress after awhile.

[pianistimo]

sorry to go on and on - but i think a teacher's philosophy basically sets the mood for the teaching.  i happen to be really 'structured' in the first few years.  almost militaristically.  the reason for this - is that students really DON't know what they want to do with the keyboard.  you show them all the possibilities - and then, they can go from there to expand and become creative.  learning to sightread as well as play with comfortable hand positions is #1 (and how to make sound) for me- and not just playing without effort.  some students will never learn to sightread if you don't push it.  once they become comfortable with playing the piano in a jazz manner - they don't see the need to learn all the notes and give a general chordal version.  of course, these people are not necessarily unmusical.  they may actually be more musical than the person who plays note-by-note - but, when it comes to professional musical capabilities - people expect a sightreader.

if you spend a lot of beginners lessons ONLY on creative and making them think they are geniuses - you'll have goofs after a couple years that won't listen to a teacher.  i've found that discipline isn't a bad word.

just as with parenting - though - you have different philosophies like this - and some cultures respond to my way better than others.  in japan and china they are used to this.  in america, no.  in fact, the discipline factor could be a determinant in the serious level of study a student will actually do vs the 'having fun' part.

[ingagroznaya]

does anyone know hanon's first name?

 
I think it is a hysterically funny question.
Charles-Louis - I had to look it up. Am I that ignorant? 

[ingagroznaya]

just as with parenting - though - you have different philosophies like this - and some cultures respond to my way better than others.  in japan and china they are used to this.  in america, no.  in fact, the discipline factor could be a determinant in the serious level of study a student will actually do vs the 'having fun' part.

My 28/37/50 Japanese was replaced by firm 60 Chinese student. She said on the phone that she is at that age, where she would rather lie, but it was VERY FIRM 60. Cultural differences... tell me about it. Russian seems lazy compared to Asians.

I do not have an Asian kid who is not musical. I do teach several Asian adults who started from scratch and think Asian parents put too much pressure on kids. Who do you think my best performing adults are? In terms of learning AND having fun? Piano takes discipline.

P.S. I have not fired those two kids by the way, pianistimo. They both "got it", that I am not kidding.

[ingagroznaya]

but, for beginners nowadays - the 'dozen a day' stuff is short and sweet and gets it done, too.  hanon isn't a long term project.

I don't know... it just not my thing.
I have not met too many teachers in my area until this year. So I had no idea as to where I stand. Comparing the notes was really whacky.
My first several lessons are extremely intense. Unlike "Bernhard's" short lessons daily, I ask for an hour lesson even with very small kids. Parents are extremely involved at first, but not allowed to a lesson. I figured if they have the time to bring a kid to 15 minutes lesson every day, or 30 minutes twice a week -  they do have time to get involved.

Hanon just does not fit my paranoia. He seems kind of square, mechanical and too easy to do.

[pianistimo]

paranoia.  this could get ugly.  (just kidding)  i don't exactly hold a gun to back of my students first few lessons.  or even start there.  usually i start lessons explaining about the history of the piano and all the parts on the piano - with a sheet that names the basic parts.  i ask them to learn all of that stuff - and then i'll point to one or two items and ask them to name them at the start of each lesson.  and, what it does. 

then, i progress to the keyboard.  usually i have them play the entire keyboard with tetrachord form lh 5432 rh 2345 (this works really great with little fingers) they play each note and say the note as they move up.  ABCD EFGA  ABCD EFGA etc. 

i guess i don't just start in on hanon like it's a bash party.  just alittle bit of info at a time and i don't expect sight reading complete exercises at first.  sometimes i just give little bits and we do a sort of reparte of information about how to hold the hands and all.  it's not anymore for me - lift the fingers very very high and strike the notes.  it's more (lets get this done and move on)  as long as they play fairly evenly for the first 3-4 lessons - i'm not particular about the exact playing as much as just encouraging them that they are doing well.  young children need lots of encouragement.  if everything they do is 'wrong wrong' they will not like playing.  i think it's a 'become familiar with your instrument' for the first couple of lessons.

the 'dozen a day' exercise my four year old daughter LOVES.  she likes to relate playing the piano to actual physical exercises.  that's what dozen a day is about.  skipping rope, touching toes, etc.  she relates to this really well.  it's almost like our first few lessons she made those her 'songs.'  little kids don't really know a song from an exercise.  may as well keep it that way for a few lessons.  then, i move to actual songs and fun stuff combined with a bit of moving around.

also, i start them right in on the idea of the circle of fifths.  i ask them to count up 10 notes on the keyboard from the left - and start at C (doing tetrachord) to play the C scale (and explain that the alphabet stops and repeats again at G - which can be a hard concept at first - so you have to say it out loud). 

then, i put a little ring on the rh ring finger and say  - ok.  take your lh and gently place it over your rh.  pull your right hand out and you are set for the next scale.  G.  the scale of G will have a surprise note - (ring finger) and you must remember to 'sharp' it.  then we talk about sharps. 

i don't wait a long time to introduce a lot of stuff - because i think younger kids actually 'get it' if they watch you do it and then do it themselves.  the rings have helped a lot.  you can make cheap ones out of anything or buy special ones at a toy store.  girls like it anyway!

[ingagroznaya]

  hanon isn't a long term project. 

I see each of my student as a long term project. I find it very difficult to raise the bar. 15 minutes of Hanon out of 45 minutes practicing = damaged student I can't take. There are a lot of other teachers around.

[ingagroznaya]

What? They don't know how to play anything after a first lesson???

[pianistimo]

there's no surprise that beginners are already futzing around and play for you what they like a little bit.  but, usually 3-4 year olds are very anxious to just goof off and learn the white notes from the black notes.

i trace their fingers the first lesson and we sort of combine the idea of fingers to notes and then i first focus on seeing if they can find notes all over the keyboard by patterns.  'can u play middle C with your rh two (second) finger - three (third) finger?  etc.

then - we'll play groups of two and three black notes - first together and then 1212 2323 3434 5454...  or 123212321... 

i think for beginners it's not about pieces but building blocks.

by the time they are done with a few lessons they can say what intervals they are playing as well.  'happy birthday' being an easy way to learn seconds (and they can play it on the two black notes).  they might not know the entire happy birthday song - but they can at least get started on it.  tetrachord form is the way i'm changing a lot of my beginner songs to (if it is not written in a method book).  it's just easy for the fingers.

i think if you can find a student that matches pitch with their voice - you know u've caught a fish.

[ingagroznaya]

  young children need lots of encouragement.  if everything they do is 'wrong wrong' they will not like playing.  i think it's a 'become familiar with your instrument' for the first couple of lessons.

Gosh, How familiar? This is a hummer, this is a key for the first two lessons? That's where you place your book?
I think even very young kids are very smart now days. They sense the false complement.  I feel there is a huge sense of accomplishment to leave your first lesson being able to play something everyone can recognize, no?

[pianistimo]

for me, that's a misnomer - to skip over introducing them to the entire instrument. 

i literally take it apart in front of them.  i take off the board and show them the strings, the mechanism, the inside of the piano.  what makes the sound.  if this takes 15 minutes and that's the entire lesson - that's ok.  also, we trace the hand. talk about finger numbers. and the musical alphabet.  they can deal with playing each note of the keyboard for 10-15 minutes a day in tetrachord form the first week.  it's learning how to use muscles they've never used before.

give me a sample of ur first lessons.  i understand -no hanon- but how to introduce the very young child to so many notes?  it's sometimes overwhelming.  don't u have to make them feel like they own the entire instrument and keyboard from the start?

[ingagroznaya]

Which method are you using ( if any ), Pianistimo? I think it would be so much easier to understand.
You don't use Hanon? ( no pun intended )

[pianistimo]

i use my own method for a while and then to bastien.  i like bastien because the method also does use a lot of tetrachord form and also they have LARGE notes.  very young children cannot read those old method books with very small note heads.  you get faster results i think by enlarging everything.

and, i make my own flash cards.  why buy everything.  u use up all your own money (or wait forever for the parent to remember to buy them).  there's places on the internet to copy the flashcards and then u can enlarge.

basically, as i see it - whatever works.  some people are stuck on one method.  i say - use as many as you want combined.  if something works, why not try it.  i found a very old method in the library that explained reading the staves very well.  basically, it said that children can use 'markers' to help learn the notes on the staff.  three spaces in either direction (treble or bass) is C above or below mid-C.  also, two ledger lines above and below the staff are also C.  if you have these 'markers' you can learn to sightread faster.  even little children can learn these five notes (flashcards) and where they are on the keyboard quickly.

a lot of method books seem to keep a child in one spot for a long time.  i think it's good to move around (do some practice without worrying about sightreading) and then some practice that is focused on a certain area of the keyboard.

i bet, also, that if young children were asked to play a lot of games at the keyboard, they'd learn very quickly.  for instance - you play a note and ask them if they can decide if it was this note or that note (two very close notes).  if they can tell the difference between 1/2 notes - you also know you've caught a fish.

[pianistimo]

for teenagers - hanon's 'the virtuoso pianist' is one of the few books (besides cooke's scales and arpeggios - and even that doesn't write them out) that has the scales written out for four octaves with chords to play at the end.  i remember using that book extensively to learn all the fingerings of the scales. 

my teacher used to break down each according to where the thumb was.  i would play CDE as a cluster, for instance, and then FGAB as another.  if students can play this really fast up and down the keyboard -it's a good start to visualizing fingering.  then, you break it down to each finger.

one octave = rhythms of one note per beat (say at 60 to 120 per quarter - but broken down to each sixteenth note in actuality).  then rhythms of two for two octaves.  rhythms of three for three octaves.  four. and finally five all in one beat on low C and high C.

having the chords written in at the end really helps the student to contemplate the I IV V V I type of cadence in a fuller sound.  with the very young students i show them this with the tetrachord pattern only (moving the thumbs into place for I and IV - and moving the rh up for V).

basically, the second half of the hanon 'virtuoso pianist' is the same as 'cooke's book'  with better modifications and explainations (as it is newer) in cooke's.  you have practice of trills, chromatic scales, repeated notes, thirds, sixths, chromatic scales in minor thirds - etc.  as i mentioned before - i don't always take this to extreme - because unless ur playing godowsky or liszt are you really going to be playing in sixths?  but, there's a beethoven sonata that i can think of with some sixth patterns going on.  i guess it's a matter of 'when u get there.'

most of my past students have been young.  i want to start teaching the older students (although i've had a few adults).  hanon is probably a first year topic and not a repetitive 'lets bang our heads against the wall again today' - for more than it takes to learn the coordination of doing certain things hands together.  it's not evil.  it's not good.  it's just there.  it's a neural connection thing.  if an adult can't play hanon - they're a dead fish.  it takes a little mental thing to do it hands together.  if hanon is hard - can u go any farther really?

[pianistimo]

ps thanks for reminding me of hanon's first name.  i don't see it on the cover of my book here.  he shall probably remain nameless and faceless (and bernhard may see this as a good thing).  just for fun - i shall take some clay and make a bust of hanon.  i will place it in my miltaristic studio soemthing like 'mao tse tung'  - and claim that if u learn a few of his exercises - you earn the right to take it outside and smash it on the concrete.  ok. back to respect. 

even mozart was very kind to fux.  he went - read the entire book - and then modified and made it better.  it's just hanon didn't know any better at the time.  fux said only certain things were 'permissable.'  well, mozart fixed him.  i take it that these people were sincere and really wanted to help students get from point A to point B.  the only problem is they had them over-march.  i mean how many times do you need to march up the hill and down again?

[pianistimo]

someone has a very wise saying on their personal message - i think it's something like 'A is to B as C and D'  - i take this to mean - don't repeat stuff over and over if you're actually at C and can combine it with D.  did i interpret this correctly?  hanon is to repertoire - as chopin is to chopin.'  but - chopin did it in less time and is actually the more pleasant to listen to.  it's just that to GET to chopin - (as most adults can't even sight read him let alone play him at first) you have to march up and down a little.

hanon exercises are good for sightreading in treble and bass clef as well as leger lines, btw. 

i fully expect a loaded M-16 to shoot now.

[pianistimo]

ok.  i challenge a video cam competiton with each of us taking a lame adult student and turning them into a chopin etude whiz (pick any etude).  i don't claim that i'll win - but i'll get them from point A to B to C.  it may take longer - but they're going to play evenly and without glitches that stay with some adult students for a lifetime.  of course, even i have glitches with chopin - but that is because my memory is failing.

here's the student - 'all thumbs mary'  - she comes for the first lesson:

bernhard
ingagroznya
lostinidlewonder
barnowl
pianistimo
galonia
and whomever wants to join

'imagined first lesson - as to what i'm thinking vs. saying.  blah blah blah - and remember now - if you don't practice the same length of time eVERY day as ur lesson length - you are kicked out.'  this will ensure my student will at least keep up with yours.

now - bernhard may be ahead of the game - giving so many lessons per week.  but, ours are better adjusted - being lazier.  they won't stress out that they are not doing it exactly as we said.  in fact, they may not even care.  they may be purpsoely doing it differently.  just to get that added attention and care they don't get at home.  piano lessons may actually be a form of psychology couch.  will the person still love me if i do this?  no wonder so many piano teachers smoke.

[ingagroznaya]

i fully expect a loaded M-16 to shoot now.

I would not know in which direction to aim, dear pianistimo. Sometimes I feel as if something really wrong with my focus.

[pianistimo]

and you think you have problems.  ok - i'll try to explain myself concisely.  chopin really doesn't have any forerunners with exercises that help u play chopin.  you just have to get into chopin's mind.  whereas, with beethoven, hanon (scalesandexercises) and czerny exercises might actually help.  i think it's helped me.   perhaps this is why chopin preludes are even hard for me.  all these unqiue fingerings and hand positions.  you have to 'think' differently with chopin.  to be much more creative.  for him - it's all about 'above' the keyboard and not march march march in a precise way.  chopin is thinking 'play like the wind' - express the etherial.  beethoven is thinking 'express they psychological' - like shakespeare.   classical forms. predictable.  they both have passion -but it's directed differently at teh piano.  one is madness and the other is madness - but they're different.

chopin seems to say with each piece - 'figure this one out at the piano.'   you can't really study the score away from the piano very well.  (at least i don't do it to the same extent with chopin).  he is also a monster with repeats.  changing a note here or there - like it's nothing to remember all this.  at least beethoven has the courtesy to just  put in a repeat sign and leave it at that.  i credit chopin for leading brahms into this 'never repeat anything the same way twice' stuff. 

ok.  with adults that are past the 'give me some pablum' stuff - wouldn't u say - memory is the next 'exercise.'  how to memorize.  how to see patterns.  i think lostinidlewonder has some GREAt stuff on this!  for me, it has been a longer process than some of the other pianists here and at uni.  for me, it's a combination of listening to myself on a taperecorder and knowing what's coming next instead of just playing what comes tot he fingers.  and, to analyze the piece and then - go a step farther and try to write it down (when i have spare time ahahahahahah) to see if i actually remember the notes or the key or anything.  take barber's nocturne.  when i first saw that - i thought - ok - i really like this piece - but will i ever see through it?  now i'm seeing patterns and hear what's coming (so i know if i'm playing a note wrong - vs. everything sound ok to me).

btw, bernhard  - i think you give great tips, too.  i think that there's a balance of the two ideas - creativity and spontaneity and organized madness.  also, i really like ur idea of giving more lessons per week than just one.  if i had time and energy - it would be the thing to do.  but, alas - i don't have either.

[barnowl]

These days, if one is not confused, one is not thinking clearly.
Best wishes, Bernhard.

etc.

etc.

etc.

This wasn't a post, but an obelisk!

Well done, Bernhard.

Now, I must ask, how is Bernhard pronouced?

BERNhard? BernHard? BERNard? BernARD.

Or, perhaps the 'Bern' mimics the sound in wee bairn? (If yes, it's a strange way to spell 'wee'.)

[pianistimo]

trying to stay on topic.  hmm.  i always thought it was BERN ard and didn't pronounce the 'h'.  the 'h' is a german addition - or perhaps an american ommission.  if he lived in american, he'd be bernard.  but, bernhard sounds better actually.  more diginified.

[gorbee natcase]

Will you stop giving me good ideas

 Thanks Gorbee

[bernhard]

Now, I must ask, how is Bernhard pronouced?

BERNhard? BernHard? BERNard? BernARD.

Or, perhaps the 'Bern' mimics the sound in wee bairn? (If yes, it's a strange way to spell 'wee'.)

Bern - hard

Or as comme-le-vent once - legendarily - put it, "burn hard"

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[barnowl]

Bern - hard

Or as comme-le-vent once - legendarily - put it, "burn hard"

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

And that , says Panistimo is more dignified. than the cockney "burn 'ard" 

Thank you for the enlightenment, Bernhard.

Anyway, for what it's worth...

In search of a second recital piece, I  bought  Works by Russian Composers (that's the name of the book) at...

https://www.sheetmusicplus.com/store/smp_detail.html?cart=7142228827&item=3165868

Anyone think it's a good choice? Recommendations of a recital piece from this book?

I mentioned this quest in another thread, and a suggestion resulted in my buying the book.

Finally...

Pianistimo, since I learned your name and gender, it has always gnawed at me that you didn't spell it Pianistima.

[ingagroznaya]

Forget Russian composers,  why Bernhard constantly winks?
I have a friend named Bernhard, we just call him Bud. Why our Bud is continuously winking? I want to know.

[bryfarr]

I just bought a Czerny Opus 740 CD at...
I might be a fool for having done so, because the reviewer, although swooning over Francisco Libetta's pianism, mentions that he plays it twice as fast as Vivien H. Slater does in her ("pedantic")recording that's been floating over the internet.

Don't diss Czerny. I love Czerny. Without him, how would I be able to play the Moszkowski etudes? I already got down the first 2, Emajor and the Gminor ones, not perfect but getting there. I also study Beethoven's Rage over a lost penny, and don't tell me that there are not elements of Czerny in the piece. Scales, arpeggios, chords. All in all, Czerny is awesome.

Yes Czerny studies are perfect for Beethoven and the other composers of that era.  Vivien Harvey Slater recorded Rage Over a Lost Penny, in fact, and she performed it at Wigmore Hall, London and the reviewer stated he considered her one of the top 5 woman pianists in the world. This was around 1982.  I read the review, though I don't think it's available online.

When I am trying to figure out how to play a Czerny study well - with warm rounded tone, clean lines, a feasible tempo, I go to VHS's recordings.  When I want to be dazzled I listen to Libetta's but I can't match his virtuosity.

[martinn]

This was a nice read, although the thread is really antique. But I learned that as a player, you either like made up excercises or you don’t (and teachers can belong to both schools also). Excercises are at least convenient, because the are focused on something, and usually brief and can be mastered quite quickly. As a beginner, my progress with student ’compositions’ is more slow, and for warmup on a lesson I like to have learned a new excercise for audition every week. I seem a bit sceptical to the opinion that excercises should be avoided by all means, and that they are a ’complete’ waste of time. I don’t know where I am going , and feel that anything is good for brushing up sightreading and some problem solving skills. Also, I don’t know exactly what composition I wan’t to learn or what would be a good choice, always.