Beethoven and the modern piano

[bradley]

I have a question...

I'm busy finishing learning the Waldstein sonata (op 53). Now, I know that Beethoven's piano only went down to an F, but there are one or two places where I think that if Beethoven had had a semitone more below that (an E), he would have definitely written it down there. The places I'm talking about in particular:

are in the 1st mvt: m 285 the E and F - in the previous bar the bass is in octaves; surely Beethoven would have wanted to carry on in this vain if he had had the lower E? I am considering playing the E and F in the LH in octaves (doubled an octave lower)

in the 3rd mvt: m 74 - the LH E in the beginning of the bar: surely Beethoven would have wanted this too to be an octave if on considers the previous bars?

Let me know what you think - I personally think it sounds better with the added octaves...

Thanks, Bradley

[xhunterjx]

I say no, I think Beethoven knew what sounded better.

[maxy]

if you are to play  in front of a jury, don't add the basses.  Otherwise, do as you like.

[xhunterjx]

also, dont post the same thing twice, please.

[pianiststrongbad]

I have never studied the Waldstein so I can't refer to specific parts.  Personally, I don't see a problem with adding octaves.  I have done it before.  Do what you think sounds better.

[mikey6]

In the Alfred edition, there are a couple of places Tovey puts the [8] in - the 3rd movt where you mentioned and the 2nd bar of the 2nd mov. which I thin would not distort the music terribly - it seems obvious and I've heard it done - Beethoven was known to push the boundary of the piano's limitations.
The place you suggest in the 1st mov. I would not however, because according to my edition the notes are 'e' and a 'd' above it in the LH, he obviously wants the 'd' which would not be possible with the LH down the octave.
I heard of Barenboim's performance of the c#min prelude and fugues that he added extra octaves down the bass of the piano so it's not uncommon, but we're not Barenboim! and therfore probably could not get away with it!

[pianistimo]

i liked the suggestions and would duly mark them in.  i don't understand what the 'd' has to do with the lh.  maybe you have to explain more.  i tried it and it didn't cover up the sound as i thought it might.  you can play it fairly softly--but it sounds fuller.  also, if you follow the 3rd movement's ideas - at about m. 46 the lh is written in octaves (so you know that's what he intended).

[stevie]

I say no, I think Beethoven knew what sounded better.

no, he knew what sounded better on the pianos of his time, not ours

[xhunterjx]

no, he knew what sounded better on the pianos of his time, not ours

Still, I feel you shouldn't play anything different than what the composer intended.

A lot of people don't use pedal on Bach because Bach didn't have a pedal.

[pianiststrongbad]

A lot of people do play Bach with pedal.  My teacher said to me once after I played Bach with no pedal, you made the mistake of sitting down at the piano, you should take advantage of it (meaning use the pedal).  Gotta agree with Stevie on this one, Beethoven only knew what his piano was capable of, not ours.

[mike_lang]

It may be a good idea to reference Charles Rosen's book entitled "The Beethoven Sonatas - A Short Companion" on this topic.

Best,
ML