What makes a piece "the hardest"

[bflatminor24]

Well I disagree with your professor. He must follow the John Cage school of thought. *** American bastards, always messing things up.

John Cage would argue that footsteps are music because they could be "organized." What a moron. No wonder nobody listens to John Cage. I hate him.

~Max~

[pianiststrongbad]

He actually studied from Cage   I disagreed with him too

[debussy symbolism]

Actually, music is organized sound in time.

[ahinton]

Well I disagree with your professor. He must follow the John Cage school of thought. *** American bastards, always messing things up.

John Cage would argue that footsteps are music because they could be "organized." What a moron. No wonder nobody listens to John Cage. I hate him.

OK - and, believe me, I'm no proselytizer for the Cage cause myself - but Cage is only one kind of American composer. In the past hundred years or so, America has given us composers as diverse as Ives, Reich, Feldman, Copland, Sessions, Diamond, Nancarrow and Carter and hosted the Frenchman Varèse (almost all of whose surviving work was written during his last 45 or so years there).

I don't hate Cage. I just don't listen to him (except recently when a composer that I respect listened to a recent performance of Sonatas and Interludes and found to his astonishment that he actually enjoyed it - learning of this prompted me to make myself listen to it once more and, frankly, if I never hear it again, it'll be too soon). Why don't I listen to Cage any more? Simply becuase nothing I've ever heard from him has done anything for me whatsoever. Likewise with most of the work of the Amercian minimalists. I just don't want to be confronted most of the time with what strikes me largely as emptiness when listening to music. I want to be excited, upset, moved, invited to concentrate, etc. There's usually more substance to be found in a few bars of a Sessions symphony or a mature orchestral work by Carter than in whole hours of this kind of stuff. But that's only my personal opinion. It doesn't make me "hate" anyone. Nor does it make me contemptuous of Americans.

Now come on - this America-bashing is getting alarmingly close to the "death to America" chanting that is nowadays expected to follow Friday prayers in Teheran!

Best,

Alistair

[mephisto]

Now come on - this America-bashing is getting alarmingly close to the "death to America" chanting that is nowadays expected to follow Friday prayers in Teheran!

Best,

Alistair

And that is racism.

Least favourite composers:
Stockhausen
Boulez
Sciarrinio(original works)

I don`t hate them, but I think there are much better composers out there.

[bflatminor24]

OK - and, believe me, I'm no proselytizer for the Cage cause myself - but Cage is only one kind of American composer. In the past hundred years or so, America has given us composers as diverse as Ives, Reich, Feldman, Copland, Sessions, Diamond, Nancarrow and Carter and hosted the Frenchman Varèse (almost all of whose surviving work was written during his last 45 or so years there).

I don't hate Cage. I just don't listen to him (except recently when a composer that I respect listened to a recent performance of Sonatas and Interludes and found to his astonishment that he actually enjoyed it - learning of this prompted me to make myself listen to it once more and, frankly, if I never hear it again, it'll be too soon). Why don't I listen to Cage any more? Simply becuase nothing I've ever heard from him has done anything for me whatsoever. Likewise with most of the work of the Amercian minimalists. I just don't want to be confronted most of the time with what strikes me largely as emptiness when listening to music. I want to be excited, upset, moved, invited to concentrate, etc. There's usually more substance to be found in a few bars of a Sessions symphony or a mature orchestral work by Carter than in whole hours of this kind of stuff. But that's only my personal opinion. It doesn't make me "hate" anyone. Nor does it make me contemptuous of Americans.

Now come on - this America-bashing is getting alarmingly close to the "death to America" chanting that is nowadays expected to follow Friday prayers in Teheran!

Best,

Alistair

G-damn Alistair, why you always gotta be so reasonable? Can't I say I hate something now and then without being scrutinized? Sheesh.

I was mad because I had a very obnoxious discussion about "what makes good music" with these idiots who think emo guitar music is some kind of godsend. "Everything is subjective" really gets under my skin - can't people grow up and learn to accept standards in Western music? Like developing a theme, tonal harmonic progression, etc. My god.

~Max~

PS - i was kinda stoned while writing this so forgive my laconic speech and what not. Sheesh.

[counterpoint]

Actually, music is organized sound in time.

Don't you think, there could be music, which is pure optical?  

[ahinton]

Now come on - this America-bashing is getting alarmingly close to the "death to America" chanting that is nowadays expected to follow Friday prayers in Teheran!

And that is racism.

What is? The America-bashing? The remark about the "death to America" chanting? The actual chanting itself? If the first, then it is not I that is doing it. If the second, (a) I do not agree that it constitutes "racism" in itself since, whatever my view of it may be, I did not actually express it in pejorative terms and (b) the fact that such activity does indeed take place there at such times is widely reported both in Iran and in America. If the third, then this is presumably anti-American racism expressed by the chanters, for which again I cannot be held responsible, since I am not one of their number.

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

G-*** Alistair, why you always gotta be so reasonable? Can't I say I hate something now and then without being scrutinized? Sheesh.

I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing to try to be reasonable, as long as that does not interfere with one's opinions and/or one's ability to form them; whether I "always" achieve that is almost certainly a matter of others' opinions, however. Of course you have a right to say that you hate whatever and/or whoever you like, just as I have a right to question the validity of - and/or the rationale behind - a stance that appears to suggest that there is something wrong with all American music for no reason other than that it is American. By the way, since I mentioned Varèse earlier, how might he fit into your view on American music? - would you regard him as American because almost everything that we know of his was written in America or would you consider him from a different standpoint because he was originally French?

Best,

Alistair

[mephisto]

What is? The America-bashing? The remark about the "death to America" chanting? THe actual chating itself? If the first, then it is not I that is doing it. If the second, (a) I do not agree that it constitutes "racism" in itself since, whatever my view of it may be, I did not actually express it in pejorative terms and (b) the fact that such activity does indeed take place there at such times is widely reported both in Iran and in America. If the third, then this is presumably anti-American racism expressed by the chanters, for which again I cannot be held responsible, since I am not one of their number.

Best,

Alistair

Anti-american chanting happens everywhere. Not only in Iran...

[ahinton]

Anti-american chanting happens everywhere. Not only in Iran...

I'm by no means convinced that it occurs "everywhere", but you still don't clarify what exactly you felt to be representative of "racism" in the earlier remark...

Best,

Alistair

[cfortunato]

And now begins the perpetual (and inevitably unintellectual) debate over "what is music," where I get to read a bunch of hippies tell me everything is subjective...

~Max~

"Hippies"?

What decade do you think it is, exactly?  And where can I find these "hippies"?

Do you get into arguments with flappers and suffragettes, too?

[mephisto]

I'm by no means convinced that it occurs "everywhere", but you still don't clarify what exactly you felt to be representative of "racism" in the earlier remark...

Best,

Alistair

I`ll back my remark.

The reason I wrote it was because you were bashing muslims. Muslims are usually non-european.

[ahinton]

I`ll back my remark.

The reason I wrote it was because you were bashing muslims. Muslims are usually non-european.

Well, thanks for the clarification, but you clearly misinterpret my intentions. I was "bashing" no one. Do remember that you were the one who apparently appreciated my recent remark that there should be the establishment of a Palestinian state. I do not wish to see Israel"wiped off the map" (even the way they are behaving now), but I do wish to see Palestine "wiped on the map". I merely repeated what is so widely circulated - that certain Iranians do chant death threats to America. I did so without bias, whatever I might think about it. I also did not suggest that this kind of behaviour is typical of Muslims the world over - and, for the record, I do not believe that it is so.

I hope that this clears up any misunderstanding.

Best,

Alistair

[debussy symbolism]

Don't you think, there could be music, which is pure optical?  

What is "optical" music? If it contains sound, than optical or not, it is in time.

[jre58591]

John Cage said that "music is an organization of sound." I think that is only half-true - music is more than just an organization. I think music must inspire human emotion or thought. I can organize the sound of a ticking metronome...I wouldn't consider a ticking metronome "music."

i think it was varèse that said that music is an organization of sound. and, also, i guess you dont consider ligeti's poëme symphonique for 100 metronomes music then.

&search=ligeti

[mike_lang]

i think it was varèse that said that music is an organization of sound. and, also, i guess you dont consider ligeti's poëme symphonique for 100 metronomes music then.

Will someone please explain to me the 100 metronome Ligeti piece to me?  I know there's meaning, but I don't understand it yet...

Best,
ML

[jre58591]

Will someone please explain to me the 100 metronome Ligeti piece to me?  I know there's meaning, but I don't understand it yet...

Best,
ML

not sure i know how to explain it. maybe its a form of minimalism. i definitely consider it music though. btw, fix the link in the quote.

[Nightscape]

That metronome piece is certainlly related to minimalism.... Reich has done a similar piece called Pendulum Music, where microphones are hung from the ceiling and swing back and forth above a speaker that they are connected to.  This produces feedback at certain intervals which get closer and closer together.

[bflatminor24]

"Hippies"?

What decade do you think it is, exactly?  And where can I find these "hippies"?

Do you get into arguments with flappers and suffragettes, too?

Wow, good one. After all, when you can't argue with someone using logic, pick semantics! A pedantic rationale is always the best way to have a debate indeed.

I like how you failed to acknowledge the issue of "what is music," which I was hoping people might elaborate on to facilitate the discussion. I already stated what my view of it is.

And I don't think the metronome piece qualifies - It inspired zero emotion and/or thought for me. It might as well be my turn signal.

And Alistair, I was being facetious with you. I like how you speak unambiguously and reasonably.

~Max~

[ahinton]

Alistair, I was being facetious with you.

I know you were!

I like how you speak unambiguously and reasonably.

I do try...

Best,

Alistair

[counterpoint]

(oops, that was a double entry of me)

[counterpoint]

Will someone please explain to me the 100 metronome Ligeti piece to me?  I know there's meaning, but I don't understand it yet...

I think, this is one of Ligeti's most philosophical pieces.

Take some machine, which produces the most uninteresting and unmusical sounds, you can think of (as a continous click-cklick-click... in exactly the same time distance is)

But now take 100 of them and wait until the springs are getting tired...
seams as the metronomes come to life as they die away...