Holes in scientific theory

[meiting]

My two cents. This post will take me far longer than I have to write, so I'll either do multiple, or just let the window sit here and return to it later

First things first: God and science CAN coexist. it's only the Christian god and science that cannot. Remember that a being that is technologically advanced enough will seem to be a god-like creature, and we don't really know enough about the universe to know whether or not technology might exist for something to be created out of nothing (which I'll get to in the next paragraph). Yes, current scientific theories say that conservation of energy/mass means that nothing can be created or destroyed, but that doesn't really mean much. Every theory/law that we have is based on observation and human calculations, and we really don't KNOW that they will stand up in all circumstances. So it is really possible that a god created the universe, but for that to be true certain things have to have happened in order.

I'll detail the big bang theory here a bit more for those of you who didn't pay attention in school The big bang comes from what we can a singularity. Now this gets a little tricky, because we don't know what happens in a singularity. Conventional laws of physics hold true until extreme circumstances, and anything that people tell you about what happens inside a star is already only based on theory. But theory can't touch a singularity because the number "infinity" is involved, and then all of it breaks down. Quantum theory holds up slightly better, but it does not apply to anything larger than a proton so it doesn't really help us that much. Now, a singularity is also what we call a Black Hole, which I'm sure all of you have heard of. The conventional understanding of a black hole is that it's a lot of stuff packed into the smallest space possible, and that anything goes in can't come out. It's actually not quite true. Apparently, some black holes are LOSING mass. and that leads to interesting side-issues that I'm not going to get into. In reality, we have absolutely no idea what happens inside a blackhole. So the original big bang is kinda like a black hole, where all this matter is squished into this point - except that this theory has major holes and doesn't really work, at least can't work without us knowing a bit more about singularities. Because what goes into a singularity can't come back out again, so how does the big bang occur? There are other theories on how big bang occured, but there is none that completely solve every problem. One interesting conjecture is that matter CAN be created out of nothing, and basically the big bang was the only time when all the circumstances were met (and we have no idea what they are) and hence this lotta matter was spat out of it, creating this universe. If that is true, then there could very well be a god who created the universe.

Now, regarding matter, what came out of the big bang was not exactly hydrogen, or even particles. Only afterwards did the stuff coalesce into quarks etc. So if common theory of the big bang is correct, and that there could have been or was another universe before this one, it could have had completely different atoms, possibly even a completely different set of laws of physics.

Personally, i'm not a christian, and I find the bible to be childish and funny. Let me explain myself (and therefore adding my two cents). For those of you who has read Dan Brown's Da Vinci code, bear with me. For those of you who has not, I highly recommend it. The writing is not that great, the book is so-so, but the research he did was superb. One has to take what he writes with a grain of salt, because he is trying to make a point and will likely discard certain bits of information as he sees fit, especially in a novel. Indepedent research, however, will show that what he said about the dead-sea scrolls are correct - they contain a couple other gospels that were written. The story appears to be that when the Church was putting together the new testament, there was a call for people to write gospels, and compete to be put into the bible. And something like 53 gospels were written, which meant that almost 50 gospels were not included in the bible. And the Church went ahead and destroyed all of them, except that a few made it to us through the dead sea scrolls. The fact that you have all of these people worshipping the bible and its stories, and that they were obviously only versions of what happened (The church had specific criteria for selection I'm sure - one of which was that the gospels HAD to make Jesus look like the son of god, and not all of them that were written believed so.), just makes me laugh.

Anyway, that's my two cents. And that took erm, an hour and a half, with 5 Scarlatti sonatas between the first two paragraphs, and first movement of Chopin #2 concerto during the final one.

[chopinetta]

yeah thanks for all the LOOOOONG info... but next time try to type everything in ordinary english! hehehe all those terms!

[liszmaninopin]

I have a couple personal thoughts on how matter can come out of a singularity, or appear to anyway.  (Although some black holes do slowly lose small amounts of mass)  Instead of imagining matter escaping from the singularity, imagine the singularity itself expanding, thus forming the universe.  Nothing can escape from the universe in theory, because nothing exists beyond it.  So in a way, the universe behaves like a singularity, in that nothing can ever escape from it.  Honestly, though, a piano forum is not the place to discuss this.  If someone really wants to research the big bang theory, there are countless daunting volumes of literature describing many intricate theories and speculations about it.  But, the evidence of an expanding universe, cosmic background radiation, and other things suggest beyond reasonable doubt with our current evidence that the big bang did indeed occur.

[chopinetta]

so everyone, what is your own theory?

[ysn1016]

The beginning of life on Earth can be explained through non-religious means, and in a more thorough and convincing way.

In 1953, Urey and Miller sparked a container of elements believed to be present in the primordial atmosphere, and were able to produce the precursors of amino acids.  Later similiar experiments revealed that  purine and pyrimidine bases (the building blocks of RNA and DNA), ATP, sugars, and lipids could be created by simulating the earth's atmosphere billions of years ago.  These molecules developed, through evolution, into the organisms we see today.

(I'm not sure if this has already been said, I'm sorry if it has been  )

[eddie92099]

Meiting - all that and you play the Brahms Paganini Variations! You never cease to amaze me ,
Ed

[meiting]

Ed, thanks a bunch Astronomy was one of my favorite subjects, and I've tried to keep up after middle school (believe it or not I did most of my scientific reading before high school )

Regarding what I said, I just went back and read it and decided that I needed to add 1 more thing to the big bang theory: It is entirely possible, and quite likely, that big bang occured not as a big bang of mass, but rather a big bang of energy. I'm not exactly sure on this point, but I think if it is a LOT of energy, then singularities doesn't quite occur cuz we have no mass. So that could be the answer, that all this energy set off the big bang and then they all turned into mass later. But how one gets energy to turn into mass is a separate problem.

Regarding life on earth, the experiment by Urey and Miller just confirmed the theory that we had all along. Though the fact is that the earth has life on it is probably a freak accident. And hence why some god-fearing individuals likes to call in the reinforcements of god. i can't disagree to anyone who says god created life, but then I also can't agree with them. We just don't know enough. It's all nice and good for someone to believe in god, to have faith, but I'd rather have faith in something more tangible. I have on no less than 17 occasions said aloud "if there is a god, let him strike me down with lightning right now" and I have never been struck by lightning yet. Not even close. Though i wouldn't expect god to miss.

Love to all, and a wonderful week.

mt

[liszmaninopin]

Meiting, you have an interest in astronomy?  I have always found that fascinating, although I prefer biology and physics.  Unfortunately, I've not had any real formal classes in either (I'm 15), my knowledge just comes from reading.  Sometimes I've mentally taunted the idea of god, but rarely out loud, because I don't want to offend anybody if possible.  Anyway, if there was a god, one wouldn't need to voice one's opinion.  This god could read your mind anyway, and would have long ago smitten (to steal a Biblical favorite) atheists and agnostics.

[meiting]

Actually, what I really like is a cross between astronomy, astrophysics, quantumphysics, and particlephysics. I guess I like the idea how you can have the biggest and the smallest (astronomy and quantumphysics) all go together and not work with either

Whenever I see a biblebeater, I just have to voice my opinion. I'm trying to save them. They're dooming themselves to a life of obsession, and it's not healthy. But none of them want to be saved. And they say I'm stubborn.

[rachmaninoff_forever]

Here is something for you evolutionists?

Supposedly humans came from large apes, probably gorillas. How come capuchin monkeys are by far the most intellegent. They even use simple tools to accomplish things. according to evolution theory. The capuchin monkey had to get dumb, grow large, then grow smart all over again. Capuchin's have no need to grow larger. They are fast enough and go anywhere to get food and smart enough to avoid all enemies.

boliver

We didn't come from apes, we just happen to share the same ancestors.

[jesc]

String Theory is driving me nuts.

What's freaking me out is that for fifty years there's not an actual realworld breakthrough with the theory. I mean, when einstein got to the theory of relativity, they got the mass energy equation and in some way that help usher in the nuclear age.

The hole I'm seeing is that if it's true, it could be useless since you might need to actually perceive the 11th dimension to exploit it or apply it.

I don't know, I just want someone to come up with a theory that actually does something... like... I don't know... wireless transmission of energy? or even free energy?

uh... after some time I feel like a selfish, uncaring, ill informed board of director flogging a research employee shouting "Shut up! I want results!" 

 

[thalbergmad]

We didn't come from apes

I did and I have photos to prove it.

Thal

[fftransform]

You guys should buy some textbooks before you open your mouths.  I've never seen such a ludicrous pile of inaccuracies and fallacious reasoning.  Why would you even speak about something you know so little about?

Obviously this is directed at people who were posting 8-9 years ago, when this thread was started (why is it bumped?), but I'd like to dissuade conversation from continuing in this vein.  I would strongly suggest asking questions (non-loaded ones), as opposed to sharing ignorance.

[rachmaninoff_forever]

I did and I have photos to prove it.

Thal

Would you mind showing me then?  I think that we both believe in evolution right?

[j_menz]

I don't know, I just want someone to come up with a theory that actually does something... like... I don't know... wireless transmission of energy? or even free energy?

Didn't Nicholas Tesla do (or at least claim to have done) both?

[jesc]

Didn't Nicholas Tesla do (or at least claim to have done) both?

Yes, but the man has been surrounded by myth. Years ago, I did try to find out about Tesla's free energy and so forth however at some point the search became akin to UFO/paranormal investigation.

and... ouch... necrothread... 2004. If there's any constant is that I always fall for these.