Joyce Hatto

[ahinton]

I think that we'll really just have to wait and see - and wait and see we will surely be able to do, for this, as I have suggested, is unlikely to go away again now and, given the sheer number of other parties with potential involvement (other artists, other record companies, etc.), it is likely also to run and run when it finally does get to court. Robert von Bahr of BIS in Sweden has so far commented, albeit rather wryly and in a carefully owrded manner that could be taken to imply that he'll not likely be reticent with the ammunition if and when he may believe it becomes necessary to use it. The sheer scale of this fraud - IF it is such (and I do stress the "if") is such as to ensure that the case may well drag on into next year even on its own merits alone, but if it becomes the tip of the iceberg in the industry as a whole (which is not entirely inconceivable), then we could be looking at decades of litigation rather than merely months or years in a massive multiplicity of cases .

Best,

Alistair

[opus10no2]

If only we could have a massive multiplicity of alistair alistairs 

[ahinton]

If only we could have a massive multiplicity of alistair alistairs 

Although I can't imagine how that happened (and I've now corected it), I can imagine what an appalling prospect that wouild be...

Best,

Alistair (the one and only?)

[ramseytheii]

Maybe the final result of all this will be attention drawn to a bunch of pianists who made excellent recordings that are not so well know.

I hope so - Laszlo Simon's recording of Mazeppa sounded terrific, and I am definitely interested to hear his other transcendental etudes.  But I've never heard of him until now!

Walter Ramsey

[ramseytheii]

This controversy has now been recognized in the NY Times:
https://www.nytimes.com/2007/02/17/arts/music/17hatt.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

Walter Ramsey

[ahinton]

It's also been reported in today's The Daily Telegraph in UK (no URL, I'm sorry to say - I have the hard copy); I daresay other British newspapers will have covered, or be covering, this story with the diligence and journalistic voracity that one might expect.

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

It's also been reported in today's The Daily Telegraph

There is nothing in the Daily Sport.

Thal

[ramseytheii]

The more I think about the critics the more irritated I get.  They showered these recordings with platitudes, saying they were "benchmark" interpretations of standard repertoire that has been recorded thousands of times, that they were the product of the greatest pianist of the 20th century, that they were definitive. 

Would all these critics, knowing now that the recordings area ll from other pianists, be so kind as to go back to the Laszlo Simon disc, the Bronfman disc, and write the same thing they wrote when they thought it was someone else?  Does a difference in .02% of tempo really determine what is an average performance and what is a "benchmark"? 

Walter Ramsey

[cmg]

Dear cmg,

Sorry to hear about your disappointment.  Here are two thoughts.  When you said

You could have said more clearly that you had email exchange that you believed to have been with Ms. Hatto.  I would love to know more about your relationship with Carlo Grante.

I met Carlo in Miami in the early 1990s.  He was close friends with a doctoral student studying with Ivan Davis at that time at the U of M, where he also studied with Ivan.  The doctoral student was and is a longtime friend of mine, as is Ivan, and she introduced me to Carlo.  I socialized with Carlo during that period in his Southwest Dade County apartment (groundfloor) and in my friend's home nearby.  My recollection of him is that of a brillliant, kind man.  A world-class pianist then, as he is now.  I hope that satisfies your curiosity.

I didn't bother to qualify my email communications with Joyce Hatto and her husband in terms that would indicate that they were perhaps fraudulent and, therefore, to be discounted as evidence that I had been in touch with her.  It never crossed my mind until I read this latest attack on the authenticity of her recordings that perhaps everything about her was a hoax.  As I'm sure you know, most of us have email relationships with individuals who are actually who they purport to be.  For me to assume that Joyce Hatto's emails were a fabrication by somebody else is not the kind of assumptions I routinely make.  I'm sure you don't either.

I mentioned Carlo because his name has now been insinuated into this alleged scandal.  Having met him years ago and spent time with him socially, I can't imagine that he would be anything but horrified at being implicated, even, as it is, quite innocently.  I found -- and still find -- this rumor-mongering to be nauseating.  The evidence of a hoax is persuasive but hardly conclusive.  What disgusts me is the assumption that the verdict is already in and the Hatto recording enterprise a fake.  To think that the prosecutors in the press out there are suddenly omniscient is absurd.  And now the NY Times has weighed in?  I'm unimpressed.  The Times has recently been taken to task for erroneous reporting on the Iraqi war and their notorious false reports about Saddam's "mass weapons of destruction."

What irritates me is that those who are convinced of this hoax are so insulting to people who have had faith that Hatto is the "real thing."  Ivan Davis, to those of you who may not know much about him, is one of the most extrodinary musicians alive today.  He is, of course, a brilliant pianist and teacher, but also an extremely intelligent man who knows more about the piano repertoire than you or I or anyone else on this forum.  And I don't say that lightly.  His knowledge is literally encyclopedic.  His recording collection rivals any university library.  His personal relationships with the greatest pianists of our time and familiarity with their distinctive styles of playing would put him the perfect position to spot fraud in Hatto's recordings.  He has spent his own share of time in recording studies and is more than familiar with the current technology.  Could he be defrauded?  Possible, but not probable.

Here's a typical complication that arises with this hoax/conspiracy theory:

I've read comments that Hatto's recordings sound muffled and distant as if they had been manipulated (faked) by an engineer.  A reasonable observation.  But, here's a counter-argument:    Barrington-Coupe has commented that the latest Ravel recording, done in the last weeks of Hatto's life, had to be remastered to eliminate audible moans on some of the tracks (particularly "La Valse" -- which, interestingly, is Hatto's own original transcription containing passages from the orchestral score that don't appear in the transcription).  The moans were Hatto's who was suffering horribly from cancer in the end.  And the moans arose from her pain.  Barrington-Coupe felt compelled to edit these out.  Hatto, it has been reported for years now, refused everything but aspirin to control her pain.  She wanted to keep a clear head to make her recordings in the last years of her life.  It was the goal that undoubtedly enabled her to survive her particularly insidious form of cancer for so many years.

Barrington-Coupe, I'd also like to add, is a man now in his 80s.  He is and has been ill himself for some time.  Is it that probable that an ailing, elderly man taking care of an elderly, ailing pianist-wife would have the time, energy and resources to perpetuate the greatest fraud in the history of recorded classical music?  Furthermore, he has never been known to be the most accomplished of recording engineers.  He runs a shoestring operation out of Cambridge and comes from a "budget-label" background.  We're not talking Sony, BIS or Hyperion here, you know.    

But is all this a lie?  Is this part of the hoax?

For me, all I have to do is listen to Hatto's recording of the Prokofiev "War Sonatas."  I love these pieces and have literally dozens of recordings by dozens of great pianists.  I've worked on all of them and studied them with some very fine pianists.  Just listen to the Eighth, in particular.  I defy anyone to find a commercial recording out there that rivals it.  It's transcendental playing that is beyond rare.  

I'd rather listen to this "hoax" recording than one by any other pianist on earth.  And that goes for many of her other recordings.  If she's a "hoax," then "Viva la Hoax."      

    

[jakev2.0]

The fact that this scandal has been revealed is not appalling - the fact that it has taken place is appalling.  This whole affair is an assault on the artists whose work was stolen, the memory of this woman, the integrity recording engineers, the people who bought the albums, and the estimation of classical pianism as a whole. The extent to which her recordings were fabric8d is not entirely known, but all reasonable people can make the concessions that this poor woman did not record any Godowsky or Transcendental Etudes in her late 70s. People who have been scammed shouldn't feel stupid; they should feel scammed, and take appropriate legal action.

Barrington-Coupe, I'd also like to add, is a man now in his 80s.  He is and has been ill himself for some time.  Is it that probable that an ailing, elderly man taking care of an elderly, ailing pianist-wife would have the time, energy and resources to perpetuate the greatest fraud in the history of recorded classical music?  Furthermore, he has never been known to be the most accomplished of recording engineers.  He runs a shoestring operation out of Cambridge and comes from a "budget-label" background.  We're not talking Sony, BIS or Hyperion here, you know.   

Well, we know that he didn't cover it up very well.

Hell, why don't I just time shrink some Gilels recordings and trumpet Robert Scrarfo as the greatest pianist nobody has heard of.  ...The truly baffling thing about this whole affair is the amateurism with which the scam was executed.

[cmg]

Hell, why don't I just time shrink some Gilels recordings and trumpet Robert Scrarfo as the greatest pianist nobody has heard of.  ...The truly baffling thing about this whole affair is the amateurism with which the scam was executed.

Well, Robert Scrarfo, imo, IS the "greatest pianist nobody has heard of."     I say go for it!

But, seriously, folks, your arguments supporting the hoax are beyond credible.  I admit it.  But can't we wait for that nice, juicy, scandalous, revolting lawsuit to hit the courts before we pass judgment?  My head's still spinnng over Anna Nicole Smith, who, by the way, was a fantastic harpsichordist.  (I have some private label CDs -- check out Ebay.) 

[ahinton]

There is nothing in the Daily Sport.

Thal

Just give it time (obviously some slow sports journalists there...)

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

The more I think about the critics the more irritated I get.  They showered these recordings with platitudes, saying they were "benchmark" interpretations of standard repertoire that has been recorded thousands of times, that they were the product of the greatest pianist of the 20th century, that they were definitive. 

Whatever the critics may have said, the fact remains that the expression "standard repertoire that has been recorded thousands of times" is hopelessly wrong when applied to the Chopin/Godowsky Studies which, as I wrote earlier, have only ever been recorded complete by three pianists and played complte by one more (besides Hatto, that is - assuming that she also did so). If only those works WERE standard repertoire for pianists!...

Best,

Alistair

[ramseytheii]

Whatever the critics may have said, the fact remains that the expression "standard repertoire that has been recorded thousands of times" is hopelessly wrong when applied to the Chopin/Godowsky Studies which, as I wrote earlier, have only ever been recorded complete by three pianists and played complte by one more (besides Hatto, that is - assuming that she also did so). If only those works WERE standard repertoire for pianists!...

Best,

Alistair

Right, but the site which exposed the Chopin Mazurka fraud said they had collected "1,500" recordings of the Mazurkas.  Had she really recorded the Chopin-Godowsky as we are to believe, it would no doubt be incredible, but the critics found everything she "did" to be the gold standard:

"...there is no doubt in my mind that hers is this cycle's [Transcendental etudes] most technically accomplished, stylistically perceptive, and musically satisfying traversal on disc since Claudio Arrau's. It has all the surface bravura Freddy Kempf musters up, but with infinitely more culture and brainpower behind the proverbial wheel."

"...an amazingly light-fingered Mazeppa, where the middle-register double notes and outer melodic leaps emerge in strain-free perspective. Rarely has this piece sounded less clattery and notey. Hatto's quicksilver, ultra-supple Feux Follets easily matches Richter, Nojima, and Kissin for double note proficiency and poetry (her choices about when and when not to pedal are worth a dozen expensive piano lessons)."

(We'll probably be seeing fallout from this: "You could argue that the F minor etude's cascading triplets go too fast for comfort, but they never race out of Hatto's control.")

"Her interpretations are unlike most I've heard, offering many singular insights and surprises."  This referring to the complete works of Ravel, allegedly recorded in two days...

"And without violating the letter, Hatto somehow always manages to leave a fresh, individual imprint upon everything she touches." (also Ravel)

My point is that critics were trying to convince us that these recordings put everyone else to shame, that they were brand-new interpretations the likes of which have never heard before, and so on.  In my fantasy land these same critics will go back to the original source for these interpretations and shower them with the same praise.  Of course this will never happen, but even if it did, these critics, who obviously were judging more on a dramatic life story then observation of the music, have already discredited themselves beyond repair.

Walter Ramsey

[jakev2.0]

Hey guys, what should "Hatto" record next? The Godowsky Etudes? Great idea...say, *ahem* whose recordings should we use for...precedent? Only by a couple other pianists, you say? Well, it's not like anyone will CHECK will they?

[ahinton]

I met Carlo in Miami in the early 1990s.  He was close friends with a doctoral student studying with Ivan Davis at that time at the U of M, where he also studied with Ivan.  The doctoral student was and is a longtime friend of mine, as is Ivan, and she introduced me to Carlo.  I socialized with Carlo during that period in his Southwest Dade County apartment (groundfloor) and in my friend's home nearby.  My recollection of him is that of a brillliant, kind man.  A world-class pianist then, as he is now.  I hope that satisfies your curiosity.

Many thanks for this information.

I didn't bother to qualify my email communications with Joyce Hatto and her husband in terms that would indicate that they were perhaps fraudulent and, therefore, to be discounted as evidence that I had been in touch with her.  It never crossed my mind until I read this latest attack on the authenticity of her recordings that perhaps everything about her was a hoax.  As I'm sure you know, most of us have email relationships with individuals who are actually who they purport to be.  For me to assume that Joyce Hatto's emails were a fabrication by somebody else is not the kind of assumptions I routinely make.  I'm sure you don't either.

Exactly; if we all did that every time anyone communicated with us over anything, nothng would ever get done, would it?!

I mentioned Carlo because his name has now been insinuated into this alleged scandal.  Having met him years ago and spent time with him socially, I can't imagine that he would be anything but horrified at being implicated, even, as it is, quite innocently.  I found -- and still find -- this rumor-mongering to be nauseating.  The evidence of a hoax is persuasive but hardly conclusive.  What disgusts me is the assumption that the verdict is already in and the Hatto recording enterprise a fake.

I have not heard from Crlo what he thinks, but I would imagine tht it concurs with your assumption; you are also right to say "hands off" until a reliable verdict has been pronounced. I do not object to it being publicised, but I do object, as you do, to snap judgements being made in what passes for the little courtrooms in people's minds until such time as the whole case has been heard in court.

 To think that And now the NY Times has weighed in?  I'm unimpressed.  The Times has recently been taken to task for erroneous reporting on the Iraqi war and their notorious false reports about Saddam's "mass weapons of destruction."

I don't think that this is fair to NYT's coverage of the hatto case so far, unless there is something more than the piece cited in this thread earlier; it is reportage only, not accusation.

What irritates me is that those who are convinced of this hoax are so insulting to people who have had faith that Hatto is the "real thing."  Ivan Davis, to those of you who may not know much about him, is one of the most extrodinary musicians alive today.  He is, of course, a brilliant pianist and teacher, but also an extremely intelligent man who knows more about the piano repertoire than you or I or anyone else on this forum.  And I don't say that lightly.  His knowledge is literally encyclopedic.  His recording collection rivals any university library.  His personal relationships with the greatest pianists of our time and familiarity with their distinctive styles of playing would put him the perfect position to spot fraud in Hatto's recordings.  He has spent his own share of time in recording studies and is more than familiar with the current technology.  Could he be defrauded?  Possible, but not probable.

I do not know Ivan Davis personally but I have long known who he is - and I would not expect him to have been fooled by this, so we'll have to see what, if anything, he says about it. Marc-André Hamelin suspected nothing until he remembered that what he calls a misreading by Carlo at the end of the second CG study is replicated in the Hatto version and that he "should have smelt a rat, but didn't" - now whether this was, in both cases, a genuine reading of something that differed in the source material used by CG and JH from that which M-AH used, I do not know, but this could easily be ascertained.

Barrington-Coupe has commented that the latest Ravel recording, done in the last weeks of Hatto's life, had to be remastered to eliminate audible moans on some of the tracks (particularly "La Valse" -- which, interestingly, is Hatto's own original transcription containing passages from the orchestral score that don't appear in the transcription).

Is this a written transcription? I'd be fascinated to see her ms.

The moans were Hatto's who was suffering horribly from cancer in the end.  And the moans arose from her pain.  Barrington-Coupe felt compelled to edit these out.  Hatto, it has been reported for years now, refused everything but aspirin to control her pain.  She wanted to keep a clear head to make her recordings in the last years of her life.  It was the goal that undoubtedly enabled her to survive her particularly insidious form of cancer for so many years.

Barrington-Coupe, I'd also like to add, is a man now in his 80s.  He is and has been ill himself for some time.  Is it that probable that an ailing, elderly man taking care of an elderly, ailing pianist-wife would have the time, energy and resources to perpetuate the greatest fraud in the history of recorded classical music?  Furthermore, he has never been known to be the most accomplished of recording engineers.  He runs a shoestring operation out of Cambridge and comes from a "budget-label" background.  We're not talking Sony, BIS or Hyperion here, you know.    

This is one of the things that bothers me; if one considers any activity as though it may be fraudulent, one would first expect to be able to detect some kind of motive for the possible fraud. It hardly seems likely that money was behind it - after all, these CDs were't made for nothing, nor are they exactly selling in platinum disc quantities either.
But is all this a lie?  Is this part of the hoax?

For me, all I have to do is listen to Hatto's recording of the Prokofiev "War Sonatas."  I love these pieces and have literally dozens of recordings by dozens of great pianists.  I've worked on all of them and studied them with some very fine pianists.  Just listen to the Eighth, in particular.  I defy anyone to find a commercial recording out there that rivals it.  It's transcendental playing that is beyond rare.  

I'd rather listen to this "hoax" recording than one by any other pianist on earth.  And that goes for many of her other recordings.  If she's a "hoax," then "Viva la Hoax."      

Well, as i have said, let's wait and see. From the small amount of reported reaction from Mr Barrington-Coupe so far, mild-manneredness rather than affront appears to be the response; how he'll cope with what might be a very long court case I have no idea, but if he is exonerated, there will be an awful lot more egg on an awful lot more faces than will be the case if he isn't - and, given the sums involved, those eggs could be of Fabergesque value...

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

Right, but the site which exposed the Chopin Mazurka fraud said they had collected "1,500" recordings of the Mazurkas.  Had she really recorded the Chopin-Godowsky as we are to believe, it would no doubt be incredible, but the critics found everything she "did" to be the gold standard:

"...there is no doubt in my mind that hers is this cycle's [Transcendental etudes] most technically accomplished, stylistically perceptive, and musically satisfying traversal on disc since Claudio Arrau's. It has all the surface bravura Freddy Kempf musters up, but with infinitely more culture and brainpower behind the proverbial wheel."

"...an amazingly light-fingered Mazeppa, where the middle-register double notes and outer melodic leaps emerge in strain-free perspective. Rarely has this piece sounded less clattery and notey. Hatto's quicksilver, ultra-supple Feux Follets easily matches Richter, Nojima, and Kissin for double note proficiency and poetry (her choices about when and when not to pedal are worth a dozen expensive piano lessons)."

(We'll probably be seeing fallout from this: "You could argue that the F minor etude's cascading triplets go too fast for comfort, but they never race out of Hatto's control.")

"Her interpretations are unlike most I've heard, offering many singular insights and surprises."  This referring to the complete works of Ravel, allegedly recorded in two days...

"And without violating the letter, Hatto somehow always manages to leave a fresh, individual imprint upon everything she touches." (also Ravel)

My point is that critics were trying to convince us that these recordings put everyone else to shame, that they were brand-new interpretations the likes of which have never heard before, and so on.  In my fantasy land these same critics will go back to the original source for these interpretations and shower them with the same praise.  Of course this will never happen, but even if it did, these critics, who obviously were judging more on a dramatic life story then observation of the music, have already discredited themselves beyond repair.

Walter Ramsey

In my response I was not necessarily suggesting that the critics might not have been caught out - merely that any one of them who referred to the CG Studies as frequently recorded standard repertoire would need his/her head examined; did any of them do this?

The point at issue here where critics and CD buyers are concerned is that
(a) the technology exists for anyone to do the kind of thing that WB-C is now accused of doing and
(b) most people won't know, so there is never any guarantee that what it says on the packaging is what's inside.

Whatever the outcome of this forthcoming case, the eventual fallout will surely be that many people will become infinitely more suspicious of the classical recording industry and many critics will be a lot more wary, with the result that we may find the the recoded music criticism industry will become a fast depleting one...

Best,

Alistair

[jazzyprof]

I have still seen no credible eveidence that the recordings claiming to be hers are fake.  I think the discussion here is distasteful. If it must go on could it transfer to another thread.

Perhaps this will help convince you:
https://www.charm.rhul.ac.uk/content/contact/hatto_article.html

[cmg]

The point at issue here where critics and CD buyers are concerned is that
(a) the technology exists for anyone to do the kind of thing that WB-C is now accused of doing and
(b) most people won't know, so there is never any guarantee that what it says on the packaging is what's inside.

Whatever the outcome of this forthcoming case, the eventual fallout will surely be that many people will become infinitely more suspicious of the classical recording industry and many critics will be a lot more wary, with the result that we may find the the recoded music criticism industry will become a fast depleting one...

Best,

Alistair

Amen.  It's only a matter of time.  Digital enhancement and alteration of photographs and film have become commonplace.  "What's real" and "what's not" have almost become questions that go begging so long for an answer it's almost not worth asking.  The virtual seems to be superceding reality. 

Brave new world.  Well, "new" but hardly "brave."  If you'll please excuse me, I REALLY need a drink.

[ahinton]

Amen.  It's only a matter of time.  Digital enhancment and alteration of photographs and film have become commonplace.  "What's real" and "what's not" have almost become questions that go begging so long for an answer it's almost not worth asking.  The virtual seems to be superceding reality. 

Brave new world.  Well, "new" but hardly "brave."  If you'll please excuse me, I REALLY need a drink.

Enjoy that drink - as long as it's not virtual. As I mentioned before, people who now wnat to place their faith behind DVDs as some kind of insurance against the kind of fraud that is being alleged here are being very short-sighted; it's just that much more work to fake a DVD. If you'll please excuse ME, I REALLY must go and fake a new piece...

Best,

Alistair

[jakev2.0]

One possible good to come out of skepticism towards digital recordings...is a possible renewed interest live concert performance. 

[ahinton]

One possible good to come out of skepticism towards digital recordings...is a possible renewed interest live concert performance. 

As Sorabji would have said in a different context (and, who knows, maybe in this one also) - "LOUD CHEERS"!!

...and if you sense any kind of endorsement from me here, please do not chide yourself...

Best,

Alistair

[m]

Is it possible that Carlo Grante, Mr. Simon, and others were actually stealing HERS recordings?  

OK, OK...

The disturbing thing about the story are the critics. Just think, they present Mrs. Hatto as “the most extraordinary recordings I have ever heard...”, while were saying nothing about original artists, which shows worth of our modern critics.

[ahinton]

Is it possible that Carlo Grante, Mr. Simon, and others were actually stealing HERS recordings?  

OK, OK...

The disturbing thing about the story are the critics. Just think, they present Mrs. Hatto as “the most extraordinary recordings I have ever heard...”, while were saying nothing about original artists, which shows worth of our modern critics.

The possibility that you mention is not newly raised; others have suggested it before you. I can tell you categorically in Carlo Grante's case that the answer is an absolute no.

Sadly, this matter is now threatening to get into yet deeper waters. Ms Hatto's death in June last year is being called into question, as is the treatment she allegedly received in Addenbrooks hospital in Cambridge, UK and whether she even had cancer at all; after all, she was supposedly diagnosed with it in 1970 and survived until 2006, which is pretty extraordinary (though perhaps not entirely impossible). Questions are now being asked as to whether she may have died many years ago and also whether the same or similar fakery might have attached to the Sergio Fiorentino recordings on the same label. Hopsital records are, of course, confidential, even after death (other than to the executors of the deceased and not even always to them), but death certification (including cause of death) is in the public domain so can - and no doubt shortly will - be checked by those interested in pursuing such things. Some people are also interested in checking the authenticity of the marriage (if any) between Hatto and William Barrington-Coupe, which would also be public domain material if it exists. Anything more than that would require police search warrants; these would not usually be issued unless something rather deeper than mere allegations of recorded fakery is suspected.

This whole thing can and will only be damaging to an already over-pressurised "classical" record industry, whatever the outcome of any of it; public distrust, once established, will be hard to overcome, even if the entire thing is eventually proved in court to have been perfectly above board and Mr Barrington-Coupe wholly exonerated.

Best,

Alistair

[jakev2.0]

fakery might have attached to the Sergio Fiorentino recordings on the same label.

Heh, at least Fiorentino fans can sleep easy tonight knowing their idol *did* in fact exist...and he *could* actually play the piano... 

&mode=related&search=

But yeah, incredibly scary that serious artists like Fiorentino will inevitably come under suspicion for this fraud.

[ahinton]

Heh, at least Fiorentino fans can sleep easy tonight knowing their idol *did* in fact exist...and he *could* actually play the piano... 

&mode=related&search=

But yeah, incredibly scary that serious artists like Fiorentino will inevitably come under suspicion for this fraud.

Suspected fraud - alleged fraud - yes, but not actual fraud until conclusively proven in a court of law, to which the case has not even yet got because no one has yet sued anyone. It is not only Fiorentino who could come under suspicion but almost anyone else; if this case, even so far, ends up "proving" anything at all, it is that no one can ever be 100% certain that what they see on the front cover of a CD is what;s inside in any or every particular.

Best,

Alistair

[ramseytheii]

The disturbing thing about the story are the critics. Just think, they present Mrs. Hatto as “the most extraordinary recordings I have ever heard...”, while were saying nothing about original artists, which shows worth of our modern critics.

marik I couldn't agree with you more.  The Laszlo Simon Mazeppa especially was impressive.  I don't know if the same critics need to review these more obscure disks, since their platitudes all proved to be empty, but these discs deserve to be heard and noticed, and hopefully that is one positive thing that can come out of all this mess.  Even people like Ivan Davis, who talks about the Hatto Transcendental Etudes on his website, should be willing to apply those same comments to the pianists who were truly playing (mostly Simon).  Not just willing - we need to see it happen.

Walter Ramsey

[cmg]

Well, for what this is worth to those already convinced of fraud in the Hatto affair, I spoke last night with Ivan Davis, expecting that he might be horrified and mortified at the lastest developments.  He just laughed.  His faith in the veracity of the Hatto recordings remains unshaken.  

He did find it extremely amusing that Carlo Grante's Godowsky/Chopin is alleged to be Hatto's.  He said the irony in all this is that Carlo, of course, was one of his students and, having Carlo's recording and Joyce's, he might be in a position to compare them and come to a reliable judgment.  

He also stands by the authenticity of his communications with Joyce and her husband.  I wouldn't have insulted him by suggesting that "Joyce" is a complete fabrication by a deluded man in Cambrige.  That rumors are now going there suggests that the conspiracy theory has officially gotten out of control.  This Hatto Affair thing may some day rank right up there with the theory that NASA never put a man on the moon -- only filmed the event in a studio to perpetuate a hoax.  Remember that one?  Oh, yeah, and the Beatles thing where you could hear "We buried Paul today" if you manually manipulated the disc to play backwards?  Paul ain't dead.  

Just a day earlier, he mailed me a copy of Hatto's Ravel recording.  If Joyce isn't playing, then the pianist who IS is nothing less than remarkable.  One of the best "Gaspard"s I've heard in years and it has all the hallmarks of what I have come to recognize in Hatto's recordings:  utter clarity of line, scrupulous attention to the score, a gorgeous sound, and a total mastery of the instrument.

And, yes, we still have those computer analyses to contend with, don't we.  I think the assumption that they are like a DNA analysis has to be challenged.  There's always room for error as well as room for disaffected individuals in the music industry who might like to stir up trouble by perpetuating their own little mean-spirited hoax.  Nothing should be discounted.

It ain't over yet, folks!  Stay tuned and open-minded.

[ramseytheii]

The rest of the internet blogosphere has finally started to catch up with piano forum.
Alex Ross is a famous music critic for The New Yorker magazine, he gives a blurb here:
www.therestisnoise.com

AC Douglas a classical-music loving curmudgeon,
www.soundsandfury.com

On an Overgrown path, probably the most well-informed music blog out there, has actually contacted Hatto's husband who agreed to answer questions in writing.  OaOP is not sure the questions will ever come back, but they did submit them, so if you are interested it might be worth your while to keep checking here:
https://theovergrownpath.blogspot.com/2007/02/some-help-and-understanding-needed.html

Also, I noticed that Pristine Classical has added a couple new recordings to their site exposing plagiarism.  It seems they are still updating.

Walter Ramsey

[jazzyprof]

It ain't over yet, folks!  Stay tuned and open-minded.

I try to keep an open mind and I also like to check things out for myself.  I do have a small personal interest in this matter because several months ago I first learnt of Joyce Hatto on this forum.  Her story was compelling.  At the time I had just begun to learn the Chopin Etude Op. 25 no.1 and was listening to several different recordings of the piece.  I have versions by Perahia (my favorite), Pollini, Zayas, Browning, Idil Biret, and a few others.  I didn’t really need any more but the praise given to the Hatto recording of the complete Chopin etudes (75th Anniversary Edition) convinced me that I simply had to have it in my collection.  I ordered it from the UK and $25 and a few weeks later the CD was in my hands.  It was very good but didn’t quite knock my socks off.  It certainly did not displace my favorites from their top spots. 

And now I find out (from da legendary sdc) that it wasn’t Joyce Hatto at all but Yuki Matsuzawa at the piano.
https://www.amazon.com/Chopin-Etudes-Opp-10-25/dp/B000001MRA/
To assure myself that my ears were not playing tricks on me I downloaded Matsuzawa’s Op.25 no.4 and used Audacity to compare its waveform with that of the Hatto version.  The timing on Matsuzawa’s is 1:36 while Hatto’s is 1:39.  It turns out that the 3 extra seconds on Hatto’s is just dead space at the beginning of the track.  When I erased that space and synched up the two tracks they were virtually identical.  I am now convinced by the evidence of my own eyes and ears that the Hatto recording is a copy of Matsuzawa’s.  You can see the waveforms here:
https://www.box.net/public/k84vgh81i2

The Matsuzawa CD is from 1999 while Hatto’s was recorded in 2003 and released in 2006. 

In her liner notes Joyce Hatto recalls a conversation with Cortot: “ ‘After all,’ he added cheerily  ‘the dead cannot be easily sued’. ”  Irony of ironies.     

[ramseytheii]

Two more links on the Hatto affair, which discuss the role of critics (soberly) and provide a few more pieces of information.  This page also indicates that several more recordings have already been exposed as rip-offs, but I think their only source is the iTunes database.  They mention Vingt Regards, the Ravel cycle (Hatto's supposed personal edition of La Valse was apparently the work of Roger Muraro), and others.

Part 1:
https://www.classicstoday.com/Classics/ConcertReview_ASPFiles/ViewConcertReview.asp?Action=User&ID=533
Part 2:
https://www.classicstoday.com/Classics/ConcertReview_ASPFiles/ViewConcertReview.asp?Action=User&ID=532

Walter Ramsey

[m]

marik I couldn't agree with you more.  The Laszlo Simon Mazeppa especially was impressive.  I don't know if the same critics need to review these more obscure disks, since their platitudes all proved to be empty, but these discs deserve to be heard and noticed, and hopefully that is one positive thing that can come out of all this mess.  Even people like Ivan Davis, who talks about the Hatto Transcendental Etudes on his website, should be willing to apply those same comments to the pianists who were truly playing (mostly Simon).  Not just willing - we need to see it happen.

Walter Ramsey

 

One very famous pianist was telling me a true story, happened to him.
He was suppose to play all Bach recital in Paris, but last minute desided to replace it with all Chopin. The next morning there was a review on... how bad was his BACH recital...
 

PS: I will look at L. Simon's recording.

[ramseytheii]

Pristine Classics has added more to their website, detailing dozens of CDs that have been identified by lay-listeners to be frauds.  THe link here:
https://www.pristineclassical.com/HattoHoax6.html

They are careful to say, they have not themselves done analysis on these records but it certainly doesn't look good!

Walter Ramsey

[daniel patschan]

Well, for what this is worth to those already convinced of fraud in the Hatto affair, I spoke last night with Ivan Davis, expecting that he might be horrified and mortified at the lastest developments.  He just laughed.  His faith in the veracity of the Hatto recordings remains unshaken.  
 

Of course he laughed ! What else could he do ? There is serious danger that his reputation will be permanently damaged if the recordings are really just fakes. On his website he praised Joyce Hatto like she was a direct descendant from Godfather himself, which was BTW one of the reasons why i ordered 6 of her CDs. Very sad.

[mephisto]

Joyce Hatto: Joy to cheat!

As written on another board

[iumonito]

Roger Muraro, by the way, is a great artist.

I am telling you, we should keep track of the Hatto collection, as I think they are selected in very good taste.  We can only hope someone creative makes buying these recordings (I mean the originals, undoctored and properly credited) easy.

[ramseytheii]

Pristine Classics still updating - their response to Joyce Hatto's husband's recent article:
https://www.pristineclassical.com/HattoHoax7.html

And his article:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/02/20/npiano20.xml

Walter Ramsey

[m]

Interesting,

Every big artist had a very distinguish style--Gilels, Horowitz, Rachmaninov, Gould, etc. You can recognise any of them from two notes.
Heck, you can recognise Hamelin or even, excuse me, Ashkenazi or Bronfman.
Just wondering what was Mrs. Hatto's style? 

[cmg]

Interesting,

Every big artist had a very distinguish style--Gilels, Horowitz, Rachmaninov, Gould, etc. You can recognise any of them from two notes.
Heck, you can recognise Hamelin or even, excuse me, Ashkenazi or Bronfman.
Just wondering what was Mrs. Hatto's style? 

You really can do that?  You can recognize any big artist from just two notes?  That's amazing.  I doubt many others could do that.  Horowitz, maybe, I could spot right off, but a lot of that has to do with the sound of his own piano -- which he took on tour with him in the latter third of his career.   I'd also agree that Horowitz' ego and genius totally absorb the composer he is playing and stamps his unique, neurotic personality all over it.  But not always, of course.

I remember hearing Walter Klien when I was a kid.  He played the Mozart A minor Sonata as if it were middle-period Beethoven:  huge sonority supported by liberal doses of pedal.  I loved it.  So, I ran out and got his old Vox set of Mozart Sonatas.  His approach there was the complete opposite.  Dry, precious, intellectual.  The point being:  here was the same pianist, in the same repertoire and his approach totally differed from his live performance.  He wasn't recognizable at all.

And the great Argerich.  She can approach the Chopin E minor as if it were late Hummel -- more classical than early Romanic -- then turn around the next night and perform it in a High Romantic style where it sounds almost competely improvised.  I've heard her do this live and on recordings.  Once again, I wouldn't say this great pianist had a "distinguish style" that was consistent. 

Kissin and Rubenstein?  I bet you'd be hard-pressed to tell them apart in many recordings.  Gillels and Ashkenazy in Beethoven.  You really think you could easily distinguish the two in recordings?

The piano, unlike the human voice, doesn't have a distinct enough variation in timbre/color (for the most part) to make it easy to identify/distinguish the person performing on it.  And a pianist's so-called "style" alters with the perioid of the composer being played.  Argerich's Bach could be confused with many other pianists' Bach. 

But no one, for example, would confuse Callas or Tebaldi singing the same repertoire.  The voice has a very strong personality that almost anyone can easily distinguish.  Sutherland never sounds like anyone but Sutherland.  The same for all the great vocalists.  But Bronfman and Graffman in the same repertoire?  Yeh, anyone could be in doubt.

That's the whole point of the Hatto hoax!  Obviously, it IS very easy to be fooled.  Barrington-Coupe, it now seems, had the good taste to scout out recordings to plagiarize that had a consistent approach to them:  fast tempi, clean finger-work, big (but not too big) sonority in chordal and octave passages that were never bangy, and a wonderful sense of musical line.  Then he remastered them with enough reverb, etc. to disquise the recording venue.

If you think you can easily identify the greats that Barrington-Coupe ripped off, give us your list.  I'm sure dozens of great pianists would like to hear what performances of theirs have been stolen.  And, yes, by now, I'd wager all 110 CDs of "Hatto" are fakes.  Sad, but true.   

[ramseytheii]

Pristine Classics, which is still being updated, added an interesting feature where they took a recording from their own archives and manipulated it in many ways to disguise its origin.  Here's the link:
https://www.pristineclassical.com/HattoHoax8.html

Also, it turns out on the supposed Hatto "Encores" disc, two tracks were ripped off directly from Hamelin, with no manipulation in the speed at all.  How could anyone imagine getting away with that, since the very consumers that buy Hamelin's discs would be all over Hatto's?!

Walter Ramsey

[ahinton]

Also, it turns out on the supposed Hatto "Encores" disc, two tracks were ripped off directly from Hamelin, with no manipulation in the speed at all.  How could anyone imagine getting away with that, since the very consumers that buy Hamelin's discs would be all over Hatto's?!

A little more easily than you might think, actually. These tracks are on an old CBC CD (recorded 1987, released the following year) which I'm not even sure is still available; the piano used is a Fazioli, so this might have made a few people who have the recording to sit up and think, but its circulation has been nothing like so wide as his Hyperion Chopin/Godowsky complete studies 2-CD set which is in any case much more recent and far more fixed in the memories of more people.

Best,

Alistair

[leslieb547]

For a considered, in-depth, discussion on this subject listen to this mornings BBC radio 3 CD review discussion. Available for the next 7 days on <www.bbc.co.uk/radio3/cdreview> the result seems conclusive, and sad.

[ronde_des_sylphes]

https://www.gramophone.co.uk/newsMainTemplate.asp?storyID=2765&newssectionID=1

A "confession" of sorts.

[ahinton]

https://www.gramophone.co.uk/newsMainTemplate.asp?storyID=2765&newssectionID=1

A "confession" of sorts.

Indeed so - and with "sorts" being very much the operative word (see my remarks various today on the BBC Radio 3 messageboard, on rec.music.classical.recordings and on the Pianophilia and Yahoo! Pianophiles newsgroup). There's quite some way to go on this yet and a number of important questions that remain unanswered...

Best,

Alistair