overrated pianists of the 20th century

[brewtality]

Richter. I can't see how Neuhaus preferred him to Gilels.

[Classicalized]

Guys,

Have you realized that EVERY GREAT PIANIST has (at least) a member that really DISLIKES him?

All the big names have appeared in the OVERRATED topic...
And most of the same names appear in the UNDERRATED section...


 

Dear Mr. Stormx:

      You've got it!  You have reached the summit (probably years ago), saw the uselessness of participation in fruitless conversations, and added a politically-correct comment!  I truly congratulate you.

Wishing the best,

Classicalized

[steinwayguy]

Richter. I can't see how Neuhaus preferred him to Gilels.

Have you heard his Prokofiev, Scriabin, Schumann, Rachmaninoff, Schubert and Liszt? THAT is how Neuhaus preferred him to Gilels.

[Waldszenen]

Have you heard his Prokofiev, Scriabin, Schumann, Rachmaninoff, Schubert and Liszt? THAT is how Neuhaus preferred him to Gilels.

Couldn't agree more.

I find Ashkenazy and Argerich to be slightly overrated, but I still enjoy listening to them both.

[Dazzer]

Couldn't agree more.

I find Ashkenazy and Argerich to be slightly overrated, but I still enjoy listening to them both.

I guess the whole crux of the matter is that you listen to the music as the music, and not as something from the a performer. (i hate my playing either way but meh! )

[Waldszenen]

IMO that's the way everyone should listen to music.... but even if you do so you can't help but notice certain flaws and strengths of different performances.


For example, I simply cannot tolerate any Chopin played by Idil Biret.

[piano88]

Gosh this thread has been going on for ages. I think we should all agree to disagree. As they say, some man's meat is another man's poison.
Surely there are more important things to discuss!
AD

[buddy]

 What do you all think of Olga Kern, the 2001
Van Cliburn winner?

[Motrax]

I'm seeing Olga Kern live in two weeks! I saw her live before, and I have her CD of Rachmaninoff's Transcriptions, and the Corelli Variations.

I think she is an incredible pianist, but is much, much better live than recorded (which is not necessarily the case for some pianists). Her interperetations sometimes seem over-dramatized and too romantic, but when you actually sit in a hall listening to her it makes much more sense somehowWhen I saw her live, her Kindersenen was absolutely incredible, as were her Corelli Variations and Barber Sonata. She played one of the movements from the Rachmaninoff-Transcribed Violin Partita (the Gavotte I think), and although she took a lot of liberty in interperetation, it was still wonderfully done.

[stevie]

lang lang and meiting sun.

i actually agree about meiting sun, his technique is of course, fabulous.

but his musicality isnt really anything special, to me.

[musicsdarkangel]

Ashkenazy is NOT a good pianist.  I heard a recording of him playing some Beethoven sonatas, and i almost gagged.  The playing was so dry and harsh.  

AHHHHH YOU ARE SO WRONG MY GOD IM GOING TO PUKE KILL ME NOW

[pita bread]

Ashkenazy is NOT a good pianist.  I heard a recording of him playing some Beethoven sonatas, and i almost gagged.  The playing was so dry and harsh.  

That would be his piano.

[Waldszenen]

That would be his piano.

I think his piano sounds weird - it has an odd fat tone.

[practicingnow]

Richter is the most overrated pianist of the 20thc.  Here's why...

I find him usually brutal and insensitive.  His tone is ugly most of the time, and his attack is offensive.  Many times I wonder if he even understands the music that he plays.  He has little sensitivity to changes in harmony, no color, and limited variety of touch.  His pedaling is unimaginative.  He has a certain intensity at all times, a kind of drive, that is for sure.  I think that is why people love him.  Sometimes it suits the music he plays (Prokofiev, etc.) but that is only by accident, not by choice.  I think that his energy and intensity distract his fans from making actual qualitative judgements about his playing, but it is generally not good music making.  Take his celebrated recording of Feux Follets, the "greatest version of all time!" - is that not the angriest Feux Follets you ever heard?  Where is the charm?  the magic?  the grace and deftness?  It's just pure brute mechanical force, and I am not seduced by it.  Well, that's just one recording that irks me - I won't go into any other ones...
People like to compare him to Gilels, an absolutely consumate musician, technician, and musical mind - and that is an insult to Emil.

[mephisto]

You can`t write like that, like every little thing you say is true. What I hate is pianists that are afraid of playing brutal and misses all the climaxes. Richter does definetlynot that. And if you want to hear Richter play soft listen to his WTC. Gould(who I love) plays more brutal than Richter. And brutal is definetly not a bad word.

Most overrated pianist of all time IMO is Cziffra.

-The Mephisto

[brewtality]

Most overrated pianist of all time IMO is Cziffra.

-The Mephisto

Banned

[stevie]

cziffra is often as brutal as you can get, whats wrong with him?

[thracozaag]

Richter is the most overrated pianist of the 20thc.  Here's why...

I find him usually brutal and insensitive.  His tone is ugly most of the time, and his attack is offensive.  Many times I wonder if he even understands the music that he plays.  He has little sensitivity to changes in harmony, no color, and limited variety of touch.  His pedaling is unimaginative.  He has a certain intensity at all times, a kind of drive, that is for sure.  I think that is why people love him.  Sometimes it suits the music he plays (Prokofiev, etc.) but that is only by accident, not by choice.  I think that his energy and intensity distract his fans from making actual qualitative judgements about his playing, but it is generally not good music making.  Take his celebrated recording of Feux Follets, the "greatest version of all time!" - is that not the angriest Feux Follets you ever heard?  Where is the charm?  the magic?  the grace and deftness?  It's just pure brute mechanical force, and I am not seduced by it.  Well, that's just one recording that irks me - I won't go into any other ones...
People like to compare him to Gilels, an absolutely consumate musician, technician, and musical mind - and that is an insult to Emil.

  We think alike.  There are certain Richter performances which are, of course, fabulous, but in general I concur with your assessment (especially the part with Gilels).

koji

(PS: although it's amusing to state overrated pianists at all in public piano forum, keeping in mind a pianist like Richter has more ability in his little pinkie than all of us combined)

[da jake]

I could play Richter under the table. 

Speak for yourself, Koji.

[m]

Richter is the most overrated pianist of the 20thc.  Here's why...

I find him usually brutal and insensitive.  His tone is ugly most of the time, and his attack is offensive.  Many times I wonder if he even understands the music that he plays.  He has little sensitivity to changes in harmony, no color, and limited variety of touch.  His pedaling is unimaginative.  He has a certain intensity at all times, a kind of drive, that is for sure.  I think that is why people love him.  Sometimes it suits the music he plays (Prokofiev, etc.) but that is only by accident, not by choice.  I think that his energy and intensity distract his fans from making actual qualitative judgements about his playing, but it is generally not good music making.  Take his celebrated recording of Feux Follets, the "greatest version of all time!" - is that not the angriest Feux Follets you ever heard?  Where is the charm?  the magic?  the grace and deftness?  It's just pure brute mechanical force, and I am not seduced by it.  Well, that's just one recording that irks me - I won't go into any other ones...
People like to compare him to Gilels, an absolutely consumate musician, technician, and musical mind - and that is an insult to Emil.

I completely agree with your comment about comparison with Gilels is a nonsense.  They are just way too different. Gilels cannot be judged by Richter standards and vise versa. Besides, on a personal level Gilels was suffering whole his life being compared to Richter--it was his life biggest tragedy and is actually very sad.

But... the fact that these both major pianists of the last century were compared in their native Russia, where the audience is quite educated and critical and absolutely loved both of them, makes one think that it might actually was something that people thought about Richter as number one.

There was time when I did not like Richter. Yes, I listened to all his recordings, and thought how overrated he is. His brutality very often shocked me. I did not understand his lack of sensitivity to color, and harmony changes. I did not understand his apparent lack of human warmth. I did not understand his "generic" approach to phrasing, dynamics, I did not understand his music making and thought that he actually was not that "musical".

It was until one day when I went to his recital and heard him life for the first time. That was probably one of my strongest musical experiences ever. He played with piano lid half open and never went over mf dynamic range (and he played both books of Brahms-Paganini as an encore). After the first chord of Schubert G-Major Sonata whole my body just sank into the chair and all my muscles contracted. I stayed in this position until the end of the recital and was afraid to look around. After the concert I did not want to see anybody, I did not want to talk, I did not want to hear anything. I don't remember how I got back home, but I remember taking a subway (in Moscow metro) train and in a while finding myself going the opposite direction.

Next few weeks I was playing only Richter's recordings, listening and re-listening them and every time finding new colors, dynamics, nuances, harmonies, etc., which previously escaped my attention.
It is very a famous Neihaus' saying that Richter sees music from an altitude of flying bird, embrasing the whole, and yet delivering every little detail.
It was the time when I grew to understand Richter and grew to understand what a MUSICIAN he is.

Since then I heard Richter a number of times live, and every time I was under the same hypnotic power.
One of my favorite his recordings is Schubert 2nd movement from B flat Major Sonata (live from Prague). I was trying to analize it many times. It is actually quite ridiculous--he does not have any dynamics, colors, or timing changes and yet, it is absolutely gorgeous. It seems that this person thought about music with different categories.
 
I also heard Gilels live quite a few times. Every time was quite an experience. He was touching me to the bottom of the heart. He was HUMAN and in every note he played (doesn't matter right or wrong) you had a feeling that he understands about life everything. Needless to say I adore him and in many ways prefer listening to him rather than to Richter.

The only difference is that I always felt that Gilels was a HUMAN, and Richter was a MAN FROM A DIFFERENT PLANET. That's why I never compare them.

[stevie]

i also hate how richter and gilels are always mentioned in the same breath.

and gilels was really stupidly modest, anyone would get the impression that he is a '2nd rate richter'.

yes, they shared the same teacher, yes they were russian, yes they both hand awesome technqiue, but thats where the similarities end.

the real importance is what seperates them and makes them the unique and great artists they are.

also, on a purely technical note, i think gilels' octaves were superior to richter's.
although this may merely be a matter of style and taste - richter looks like he played with greater force, and hence the slight lack in speed by comparison.

[practicingnow]

 
(PS: although it's amusing to state overrated pianists at all in public piano forum, keeping in mind a pianist like Richter has more ability in his little pinkie than all of us combined)

Hey Koji - I'd rather hear you anyday   

[practicingnow]

It was until one day when I went to his recital and heard him life for the first time. That was probably one of my strongest musical experiences ever. He played with piano lid half open and never went over mf dynamic range (and he played both books of Brahms-Paganini as an encore). After the first chord of Schubert G-Major Sonata whole my body just sank into the chair and all my muscles contracted. I stayed in this position until the end of the recital and was afraid to look around. After the concert I did not want to see anybody, I did not want to talk, I did not want to hear anything. I don't remember how I got back home, but I remember taking a subway (in Moscow metro) train and in a while finding myself going the opposite direction.

I wish I was there - I appreciate this commentary very much, because you were originally coming from my side of things.  I have always wanted someone to explain the whole Richter thing to me, but all I ever get are answers like:
"Oh, you should just listen to this or that recording, then you'll know"
or
"Oh, he's just so great and if you don't think so then you're crazy"
or
"If you have to ask you'll never know"
- or some nonsense like that.  But no one ever says anything really substantial - oh well, I appreciate you sharing your experience like that - like I said, wish I was there!

[chromatickler]

i just want to say i like richter's playing very much 

[brewtality]

I detest Richter's playing.

[thracozaag]

But... the fact that these both major pianists of the last century were compared in their native Russia, where the audience is quite educated and critical and absolutely loved both of them, makes one think that it might actually was something that people thought about Richter as number one.

There was time when I did not like Richter. Yes, I listened to all his recordings, and thought how overrated he is. His brutality very often shocked me. I did not understand his lack of sensitivity to color, and harmony changes. I did not understand his apparent lack of human warmth. I did not understand his "generic" approach to phrasing, dynamics, I did not understand his music making and thought that he actually was not that "musical".

It was until one day when I went to his recital and heard him life for the first time. That was probably one of my strongest musical experiences ever. He played with piano lid half open and never went over mf dynamic range (and he played both books of Brahms-Paganini as an encore). After the first chord of Schubert G-Major Sonata whole my body just sank into the chair and all my muscles contracted. I stayed in this position until the end of the recital and was afraid to look around. After the concert I did not want to see anybody, I did not want to talk, I did not want to hear anything. I don't remember how I got back home, but I remember taking a subway (in Moscow metro) train and in a while finding myself going the opposite direction.

Next few weeks I was playing only Richter's recordings, listening and re-listening them and every time finding new colors, dynamics, nuances, harmonies, etc., which previously escaped my attention.
It is very a famous Neihaus' saying that Richter sees music from an altitude of flying bird, embrasing the whole, and yet delivering every little detail.
It was the time when I grew to understand Richter and grew to understand what a MUSICIAN he is.

Since then I heard Richter a number of times live, and every time I was under the same hypnotic power.
One of my favorite his recordings is Schubert 2nd movement from B flat Major Sonata (live from Prague). I was trying to analize it many times. It is actually quite ridiculous--he does not have any dynamics, colors, or timing changes and yet, it is absolutely gorgeous. It seems that this person thought about music with different categories.
 
I also heard Gilels live quite a few times. Every time was quite an experience. He was touching me to the bottom of the heart. He was HUMAN and in every note he played (doesn't matter right or wrong) you had a feeling that he understands about life everything. Needless to say I adore him and in many ways prefer listening to him rather than to Richter.

The only difference is that I always felt that Gilels was a HUMAN, and Richter was a MAN FROM A DIFFERENT PLANET. That's why I never compare them.

  Thanks for sharing your very eloquent story--the great tragedy for many of us is that we  will never have the opportunity to see these amazing artists live and in their element; recordings (and even videos) just don't do them justice.  I remember talking wtih an English professor at the University of Michian who, in one season (1952) heard back-to-back-to-back:

Horowitz
Kapell
Bolet

  I wanted to scream.

koji

[arensky]

Overrated pianist (in his prime, now he seems to be almost forgotten): Alexander Brailowsky.

And what about Vladimir de Pachmann? Genius or charlatan?

Disagree about Brailowsky, he's one of the few who understands the Polish rythmic groove in Chopin; Yes he's a little heavy handed, but the spirit makes up for it IMO, and quite a technique, still my favorite recording of Totentanz and the Chopin Polonaises.

De Pachmann? A little of both, flights of genius (Chopin's Impromptu in F#) and flights of horrifying disaster (Chopin/Godowsky Revolutionary Etude for the LH). I think in his prime(no recordings) he was probably a genius, particularly at Chopin. He was a really weird dude...

[arensky]

Martha cannot sight-read all that well

Neither could Hoffman! 

[brewtality]

Neither could Hoffman! 

but he could play everything by ear.

[arensky]

but he could play everything by ear.

That's right! He heard Josef Lhevine play Liszt's "Lorelei" after lunch one day, and played it that night at his recital, having never seen the sheet.

On another occasion at a party, he played Chopin's  f minor Ballade; BACKWARDS!!!

[Waldszenen]

I remember talking wtih an English professor at the University of Michian who, in one season (1952) heard back-to-back-to-back:

Horowitz
Kapell
Bolet

  I wanted to scream.

koji

Why....?

[thracozaag]

Why....?

  Do I really need to explain?

koji

[sevencircles]

Neither could Hoffman! 

but he could play everything by ear.

So can Martha!

Lazar Berman could barely sightread at all.

[arensky]

So can Martha!

Lazar Berman could barely sightread at all.

Sightreading is important if you are a collaborative pianist, scurrying around accompanying instrumentalists, singers and choirs. These people and groups of people want their piano part, and they want it now!     And it's great for learning new music, the better you can initially grasp something, the further along you are. But couldn't we train our ears as well as our eyes? The musical establishment overlooks this; after 3 years of solfege or ear training, you're on your own. Funny, music is an ear art, not an eye art; something's wrong here; reading is only a means to an end, not an end in itself. We need a thread about this if there isn't one already....

Erroll Garner (an illiterate musical genius, a prodigy on the order of a Saint-Saens or Mozart, but that's another thread) was once asked by a reporter, "Doesn't it bother you that you can't read Mr. Garner?" ERROL: "No way man, no one can hear you read!" 

[mikey6]

Is there any possible way that someone could answer this post with a completely objective opinion? All these pianists obviously are famous for a reason. (and i doubt like most of today's musicians, it's sex appeal!)

[xvimbi]

Is there any possible way that someone could answer this post with a completely objective opinion? All these pianists obviously are famous for a reason. (and i doubt like most of today's musicians, it's sex appeal!)

Sorry to rain on your parade, but the term "objective opinion" is a good one

Reminds me of my favorite joke, you know:

Masochist: "Please, please, torture me!"
Sadist: "No"

[piazzo23]

I detest Richter's playing.

I detest Hamelin´s...
in a good way 

[brewtality]

I detest Hamelin´s...
in a good way 

riiight. Hamelin is mostly too controlled, I would like him to unleash the fookin' fury once in a while.

[ahmedito]

Koji,

Regarding your comment about those amazing concerts, the stories m grandfather tells are incredible. During the second world war, all these incredible pianists took their tours to latin america, and other unaffected parts of the world.

In a span of three years, my grandpa heard the following: (I know the feeling, I also wanted to scream)

- Claudio Arrau playing all of Beethovens sonatas and concertos
- Rubinstein playing all of Chopins nocturnes and 2 books of Iberia.
---- well, actually the list goes on, but I realize that those 2 examples should be more than enough. Other names include Bachaus, Emil, Sviatoslav, Wilhelm (kempf of course), Fisher and Cziffra.

[princessdecadence]

And don't even mention Richard Clayderman, that sac-religious beeping bleep.  Yeah I don't like him.

oh my lord! That's a pretty quote!

and to this PeterHK guy whoever he is - Gould made everything Gould not Bach.

[Waldszenen]

  Do I really need to explain?

koji

That "Why...?" didn't turn out the way I wanted it to: picture someone screaming "WHY!?!??!?" before they're about to die and that's what I was trying to say.

[okeanos]

I'm so thankful I'm not the only one who thinks Horowitz is way overrated.
After hearing Rubinstein's Chopin, Horowitz's sorta made me ... uh... yeah...
Btw, anyone can tell whose recording for Liszt's La Campanella is good? So far, the best I've listened to is a midi which I typed into the computer... that's just very sad...

[musicsdarkangel]

I'm so thankful I'm not the only one who thinks Horowitz is way overrated.
After hearing Rubinstein's Chopin, Horowitz's sorta made me ... uh... yeah...
Btw, anyone can tell whose recording for Liszt's La Campanella is good? So far, the best I've listened to is a midi which I typed into the computer... that's just very sad...

No one can sound like Horowitz.  No one.  That is why he's not overrated.


For La Campanella, Yundi Li, Andre Watts, and Yvegny Kissin are all very good recordings (and feckin' impressive).

The most amazing recording was done by Josef Lhevinne, but I can only seem to find a crappy version on cd.  My teacher played me one on a record, and it was astounding.

[etudes]

I'm so thankful I'm not the only one who thinks Horowitz is way overrated.
After hearing Rubinstein's Chopin, Horowitz's sorta made me ... uh... yeah...
Btw, anyone can tell whose recording for Liszt's La Campanella is good? So far, the best I've listened to is a midi which I typed into the computer... that's just very sad...

also try nikita magalof (spelling) and Cziffra

[alhimia]

No one can sound like Horowitz. No one. That is why he's not overrated.

I'm sorry, but I have to disagree with you. there's one Dutch pianist (Frederic Meinders) who is able to sound exactly like Horowitz. It's amazing. If you listen to live recordings of his Rachmaninoff or scriabin you will hear it. Problem is, it's almost impossible to get some live recordings of him.

[etudes]

I'm sorry, but I have to disagree with you. there's one Dutch pianist (Frederic Meinders) who is able to sound exactly like Horowitz. It's amazing. If you listen to live recordings of his Rachmaninoff or scriabin you will hear it. Problem is, it's almost impossible to get some live recordings of him.

are you serious???
i always think that no one will be able to sound like Horowitz

[alhimia]

are you serious???
i always think that no one will be able to sound like Horowitz

Yes, I'm serious. I always thought it was impossible to sound like Horowitz, especially on a different grand piano, until a friend of me showed a recording of him. It was a shock, I really couldn't believe my ears. He was able to play like Horowitz (or at least to get exactly the same effect) on a totally different grand piano. So, yes, it's really possible to sound like Horowitz. Later I heard that at this live concert he was VERY nervous, and normally, when he feels more relaxed, he sounds even more impressive. It's amazing.

[m]

I'm sorry, but I have to disagree with you. there's one Dutch pianist (Frederic Meinders) who is able to sound exactly like Horowitz. It's amazing. If you listen to live recordings of his Rachmaninoff or scriabin you will hear it. Problem is, it's almost impossible to get some live recordings of him.

Original Van Gogh cost many millions, if not priceless. You can get a reproduction for a few bucks. The very good copy (including canvas texture), will still be well under $100.

Horowitz never copied anybody, making his own mistakes, but being unique. The difference between Horowitz and the Dutch pianist you mentioned is that Horowitz is HOROWITZ, and the Dutch pianist only sounds like HOROWITZ. Who needs a clone?

[stevie]

possibly, but a horowitz clone would sound cool, obviously.

i mean, if he plays different pieces that horowitz didnt play, in a horowitzian way, it would be wikid.

[Kassaa]

How do you know how Horowitz played those pieces lmao.