Question ABOUT Bernhard

[steve jones]

Yet.

I'll happily promote you for a cut. Help me think up some usernames 

SJ

[robertp]

On "originality". These is getting very close to the current media obsession with plagiarism. Plagiarism, as usually defined, is wrong. But using "common knowledge" which not everyone knows is quite a different matter. When I write about Roman history (my profession), should I indicate the source from which I first learned Augustus became emperor in 27 B.C.? Of course not...and I don't remember even when I first learned it, let alone where. The application to music  and music pedagogy is obvious.  If not so obvious, there's Charles Rosen's "Influence: Plagiarism and Inspiration" in 19th-Century Music, 1980.

On a personal and pianist level. I cam to this forum about a year and one-half back, getting back to the piano after a very long hiatus. It's hard in ushc cases not to encounter Bernhard's postings. Some I knew and agreed with, some I knew and disagreed with, and much I didn't know at all.  I found even when I disagreed that B. had supportable reasons. And I found nothing in his advice which didn't work, and wasn't confirmed later by the superb teacher I found (also by way of these forums).  So I'm personally very grateful to B. for unwittingly some guidance when I was getting back into the keys.

But back to originality. It's one thing if someone recounts, say, the various methods of playing double octaves. You could probably find earlier examples of the methods, and earlier still. So all they all unoriginal? Of course not. Is common knowledge. But say in that recount of the methods you find reference to practicing double octaves by sitting with your back to the keyboard  . One of two things ensues. Either the author devised that method on his own, or she/he got it from someone else. In the latter, credit should be given, since that method would definitely not be common knowledge.

Trying to sort out what B. has been saying according to originality. To what end? Don't go there.

[prometheus]

I guess it is a side effect of the desperate attempt to establish copyright on intellectual property as something natural and something just.

[pianistimo]

yes.  even composers plagarized openly.  that is why some of their works remain unpublished.  agreed about giving credit where credit is due.  i think that bernhard likes the idea of making students think for themselves.  it is a good idea - but not all students think the same.  it might work with very bright students - but the dumb ones would just sit there.

also, for me, as an adult student coming back to lessons after a period of time (although i never quit practicing) - it was good to have a teacher just give some pablum out.  the thing is - that he gave me three jars at once and i had to remember it and i try to make it delicious.  and, after while you're back where you wanted to be and start the creative juices.  it sometimes takes a jump start.  you don't want to be oblivious to obvious errors to others.  i can't believe some of my stupid mistakes now - but i was sincerely unaware of them until they were shown to me.

i think the best idea is to start piano when you are young.  but, obviously that's not possible for everyone.  the next best idea is to find a good enough teacher that you don't have to switch teachers anymore than three years at a time.  if you are switching every six months - something is wrong.  also, to find a teacher who knows their limits and will tell you.  i can teach this and this - but i am weak in this area.  and, one who is not jealous of their students and not want them to progress to another teacher.  i think bernhard sounds humble and yet quite knowledgeable. 

i think you have to watch out for the teachers that are too 'picky.'  but, there's a fine balance.  you don't want someone saying 'oh that's good' when it's terrible.  someone who gives you the good with the bad and still encourages you (if you need it). at my age, i can take some pain and disillusionment.  it doesn't go over very well with 8 year old girls.  if i get a lot of crit - it makes me want to go and practice and get better.  sometimes i cry in private - but i never let my teacher see that.   and, i usually can be persistent enough to solve whatever is going wrong.  my latest intruige is not making things sound too 'staid.'  to pump it up (like that chef on tv that says 'bam' every time he puts hot sauce or spices in his cooking). 

[pianistimo]

say, did you know that certain companies are trying to own particular dna's (via patent) so that if another company wants to do research - they have to contact this company that owns it and ask.  of course, lately - they dont' want to let go of the dna because then their research will be compromised (they think).  but the consumer is hurt because the company to solve the problem will be one instead of twenty or more.  bernhard openly shares his information - so i'm not saying this about him at all.

[prometheus]

A breast cancer gene has already been patented. The patent hasn't been challenged yet.

[pianistimo]

yes.  i think that was it.  you must read 'reader's digest,' too.

[steve jones]

yes.  even composers plagarized openly.  that is why some of their works remain unpublished.  agreed about giving credit where credit is due.  i think that bernhard likes the idea of making students think for themselves.  it is a good idea - but not all students think the same.  it might work with very bright students - but the dumb ones would just sit there.

Film composers make a living a plagarizing!

Honestly, I could show you COPYRIGHTED material that has been ripped in filmscores so bad. Take Jerry Goldsmith's Alien score. This was and remains extremely well regarded. Yet the memorable flute motif from the opening cue is a direct rip from Gustav Holst 'The Planets'! Later in the score there is an adaption of some of Bartok's 'Music for strings, percussion and celesta'.

I wonder what the temp tracks were for those cues? lol

Fortunately, Goldsmith was lucky enough to get away with this. Poor Hans Zimmer on the other hand is being sued for his blatent use of 'The Planets' in his Gladiator score. I the Holst foundation (or what ever their name is) are successful, I bet there'll be some arseholes tweaking in Hollywood! 

SJ

[prometheus]

yes.  i think that was it.  you must read 'reader's digest,' too.

No, it was a prime example in the ethical discussion about the problems created and the problems solved by more knowledge about human genetics.

[leucippus]

Trying to sort out what B. has been saying according to originality. To what end? Don't go there.

I think there has been a huge misunderstanding in this thread on that point.  My posts weren't intended as an attack against Bernhard for plagiarism.  I agree with others, that he has a right to share all his knowledge without necessarily referencing his sources.  Moreover, it's been pointed out that he does indeed reference Chang's book and recommends it.

My comments about that where in respond to the original comments posted by the author of this thread,…

I am astonished that so many of you readily accept his (Bernhard's) philosophy.

-Monsieur Le Renard

I was merely pointing out that much of Bernhard's philosophy is widely known and accepted by others.  It's not necessarily his own unique point of view.  That's not an accusation of plagiarism, it's simply pointing out the fact that Bernhard's ideas are hardly original or unique to him.  I think there's a big difference between accusing someone of plagiarism and wanting people to understand that a person's ideas are not necessarily original or unique to them.
 

[tac-tics]

Is there anyting wrong with blindly following a false prophet?

Is there??

If not, I offer anyone who will follow me eternal salvation for the modest price of wearing a paper hat everywhere they go for an entire week.

[prometheus]

Do people really believe Bernard? What claims does he make that require faith? And who follow him blindly? I don't really get it. Does it matter who he is? Isn't all this pure ad hominem.

Rather discuss the validity of the things he said. And not if they are original, if we have to believe him when he claims his computer runs on a waterfall in his garden, that we should blindly follow Horowitz and Lang Lang instead because we have heard their recordings, etc etc.

[crazy for ivan moravec]

could he possibly be the pianist/composer bernhard arndt? or Bernhard Renzikowski?

[leucippus]

He does offer many good tips, but for some of what he preaches, such as not practicing technique but rather gaining it through repertoire, I am astonished that so many of you readily accept his philosophy.

Personally I don’t think this particular thread is about Bernhard or blindly following others nearly as much as it's about misunderstandings.

I can't speak for Bernhard, but I have read Chang and I know that a lot of people misunderstand Chang on the point about gaining technique through repertoire.  Chang isn't saying not to practice technique.  He's simply saying that rather than blindly following progressive technique exercises (like Czerny for example) you can actually make up your own technique exercises from pieces that you would like to add to your repertoire (or even from existing repertoire)

That doesn't mean that merely practicing your repertoire will provide you with proper practice in technique.  Even Chang suggests taking excerpts from pieces of your repertoire and using those as technique exercises.  In fact, he actually harps on it being a waste of time to practice the parts of your repertoire that you’ve already mastered.

He also suggests that you play them with different timings and cadence and not always strive to make them sound one particular way. So it's not the same as merely saying that practicing your repertoire will automatically replace a need for practicing technique.  It's just a suggestion to practice technique material that is more closely aligned with what you want to play.

In fact, I've just read some resent posts made by Bernhard and it appears that he is quite concerned with practicing technique as well.  Like Chang he just doesn't believe that you should blindly follow a program like Czerny's.

So the real problem here is probably nothing more than just misunderstandings all the way around.   Monsieurrenard is probably just misunderstanding what Bernhard is "preaching". 

[bernhard]

could he possibly be the pianist/composer bernhard arndt? or Bernhard Renzikowski?

Nah. Bernhard is completley unknown - his only claim to any fame is pianostreet.

He is just a modest piano teacher with much to be modest about.
(There: Now I am plagiarising Churchill )

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[bernhard]

Maybe Chang and Bernhard are one and the same... 

Actually this issue has been brought out before:

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,4750.msg45132.html#msg45132
(Bernhard and Chang assure pianostreet readers that they are not the same person – but then they would say that, wouldn´t they?)

(Ah, the lack of originality... )

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[bernhard]

I think there has been a huge misunderstanding in this thread on that point.  My posts weren't intended as an attack against Bernhard for plagiarism.  I agree with others, that he has a right to share all his knowledge without necessarily referencing his sources.  Moreover, it's been pointed out that he does indeed reference Chang's book and recommends it.

My comments about that where in respond to the original comments posted by the author of this thread,…

I was merely pointing out that much of Bernhard's philosophy is widely known and accepted by others.  It's not necessarily his own unique point of view.  That's not an accusation of plagiarism, it's simply pointing out the fact that Bernhard's ideas are hardly original or unique to him.  I think there's a big difference between accusing someone of plagiarism and wanting people to understand that a person's ideas are not necessarily original or unique to them.
 

I am going to pick on my good friend Leucippus here.

A quick search using the key words “bernhard Chang” and specifying posts by member “Bernhard” returned 80 posts in which Chang is mentioned and acknowledged as required reading material. I notice that there are 4 times more posts of mine mentioning (and praising) Chang than the total of your own posts. (There are far more posts - these are just the ones picked up by the search engine)

I selected three as being perhaps of  intrinsic interest:

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,16088.msg172255.html#msg172255
(Bernhard gives his opinion on Chang)

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,7230.msg74361.html#msg74361
(Reply #9 – Bernhard talks about the origins of his ideas and comments on Chang)

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,4145.msg38369.html#msg38369
(playing apparatus anatomy – reply #9 has one of the few instances where Bernhard disagrees with Chang)

What I do find most ironic though, is that this alleged charge of plagiarism is already a plagiarism, since other posters have tried to make it stick before (I was always acquitted, I am happy to say). I have not seen you give credit to – amongst others – Ian Memminger, for instance:

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,5298.msg115317.html#msg115317
(reply # 30)

You may be interested in my reply to him (reply #:34)

Finally, although I do agree with most of what Chang says (and in rare occasions I disagree), I would submit that the bulk of my posts have nothing to do with the subject matter on Chang´s book. For instance, I have provided list upon list of obscure repertory. I have commented and graded numberless pieces (where in Chang´s book or even elsewhere can you find over 200 Scarlatti sonatas grade and commented upon?). I have provided extensive pedagogical advice in the teaching threads; I have even posted pancake recipes, for crying out loud (do you find those in Chang´s book as well?)!

And saying that "Bernhard´s ideas are not original or unique to him" seems a bit trivial. Can you give any example of any human being for which that is not the case? And what is the point exactly of saying it? (personally I feel like saying "duh")

I suggest you read a few more of my posts before you jump too quickly to conclusions.

By the way, to say that Hanon is helpful to beginners because  they cannot yet cope with the complexities of a piece is rubbish. It demonstrates two things: ignorance of Hanon´s pedagogy: Hanon is only advisable after one year of piano study by Hanon propnents. Second it demonstrates  that either you or your teacher do not have familiarity with repertory of quality for complete beginners. Try this thread and you will see that there are plenty of pieces that can be taught in the very first lesson.

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,4140.msg38111.html#msg38111
(True repertory for total beginners)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2147.msg18098.html#msg18098
(Easiest piano piece ever written)

 

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[bernhard]

Now, guys, seriously, amusing as this thread may be, don´t you have something better to do? (e.g. practising the piano?)

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[alwaystheangel]

Now, guys, seriously, amusing as this thread may be, don´t you have something better to do? (e.g. practising the piano?)

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

Once a piano teacher, always the piano teacher.

These kind of posts must just kill you.  All the theories and conspiracies...

[leucippus]

And saying that "Bernhard´s ideas are not original or unique to him" seems a bit trivial. Can you give any example of any human being for which that is not the case? And what is the point exactly of saying it? (personally I feel like saying "duh")

Well I didn't mean that quite the way it looks in print.  I think it needs to be tempered within the context of the issues that were brought forth by the author of this thread in the opening post.  He was asking why anyone would blindly follow your "philosophy".    I was merely trying to point out that much of what you "preach" is supported by many others.  I suppose in doing that I inadvertently made it sound like you are incapable of having an original idea.  I do appologize for that, that was not my intent.

By the way, to say that Hanon is helpful to beginners because  they cannot yet cope with the complexities of a piece is rubbish. It demonstrates two things: ignorance of Hanon´s pedagogy: Hanon is only advisable after one year of piano study by Hanon propnents. Second it demonstrates  that either you or your teacher do not have familiarity with repertory of quality for complete beginners. Try this thread and you will see that there are plenty of pieces that can be taught in the very first lesson.

I have no teacher.  I am a self-learner.  The only thing I know is that I personally found the first few Hanon exercises to be far simpler than any of the pieces that you suggested could be taught as a first lesson.  I have since learned some of those beginner's pieces and they were much more difficult to learn than Hanon was by far.

So while Hanon may not be recommended, it's still the easiest thing that I've ever played yet.  And I did find it useful for helping me to get a feel for the keys before I was able to play anything more complicated.  It also helped me with cadence and synchonizatoin of both hands.  And I personally felt that experience was useful when I went back to learn those beginning pieces (which took me much longer to learn).  So just from that experience alone and for no other reason I would recommend Hanon to someone who never touched a keyboard before.  I just don't see how you can lose with it.

[richy321]

I've noticed, reading posts on these forums, that many of you whole-heartedly trust the member Bernhard about technique and such. He does offer many good tips, but for some of what he preaches, such as not practicing technique but rather gaining it through repertoire, I am astonished that so many of you readily accept his philosophy.

I would like to answer this point more directly.  I do trust Bernhard and accept his ideas whole-heartedly, but not blindly and not without weighing and understanding the reasoning behind them and trying them out.  Another reason is more empirical:  I have tried Hanon and his like (e.g.  Phillipe and Cortot) quite assiduously and have found them of very little benefit.  Many people in this forum have expressed the same experience.  This does not even address the issue of extreme tedium experienced in doing Hanon for many (but not all) people.  This is not an issue that can dismissed lightly, as it can mean the difference between a self-sustaining  experience in learning techique as opposed to an aversive one, sufficient to discourage the effort entirely.

It should be noted that the rejection of Hanon in favor of more musical material (including Czerny and actual repertory) did not originate with Bernhard or Chang.  If you read any of the better known books on piano technique of the last 50 years (e.g., A. Whiteside, W. Newman, G. Sandor, S. Fink, S. Bernstein) you will find that they all come out on the side of repertory and against Hanon, in some cases vehemently so.   The only one I found in favor of Hanon was Boris Berman, a Russian, but I found nothing helpful in his entire book and I know nothing about his credentials as a teacher, so all I can say is that he is distinctly in the minority.  What's more, he doesn't even try to address the critique of Hanon that is pretty much in the mainstream today so his position is not exactly persuasive.

As for Bernhard, although he didn't originate the ideas we are discussing (and neither did Chang, but the way), he has been by far the most vocal and successful in articulating the contra-Hanon position, so much so that I, for one, do not begrudge him much of the credit.  And I hope that the hint that he let slip above - "yet" -  means that he has something in the works, in the form of published medium that presents his thoughts in a more systematic and convenient form. I woudn't hesitate to buy the first copy.      

As for M. Renard, if you find Hanon to be rewarding, no one is trying to take that away from you.  Do continue.  But don't come around here planting innuendos.  It was very unseemly, and not well informed at all.        
 
Rich Y

 

 

[steve jones]

Once a piano teacher, always the piano teacher.

These kind of posts must just kill you.  All the theories and conspiracies...

You see how he tries to control us? 

SJ

[alwaystheangel]

You see how he tries to control us?

SJ

yeah...


but he's go a point.  A good one too!

[bella musica]

Now, guys, seriously, amusing as this thread may be, don´t you have something better to do? (e.g. practising the piano?)

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

You tell 'em!  (I have an excuse - I'm on my lunch break at work with NO PIANO!!!  I'm going into withdrawal!)

[jakev2.0]

For clarification, Tiger stopped coaching with Butch Harmon in 2004 and is now with Hank Haney (sorry to be a golf nerd).

koji

LOL, buddy - u r in da wrong playze...i think u b lookin 4 da üb3r n3rd5 golf forum down da hall. ROFLCOPTER!

[penguinlover]

Maybe I am too simplistic.  But I am glad to have someone who has already done the research to ask questions of. I don't have the time to get as deep as Bernhard goes.  I will glean what I can from his posts, as well as anyone else's. So what if what he says has been said before.  Have you ever heard the expression, "If my bullet fits your gun, shoot it"?  We're here to help each other. 

[tac-tics]

Now, guys, seriously, amusing as this thread may be, don´t you have something better to do? (e.g. practising the piano?)

Indeed. This forum is surprizingly tolerant of crap. The moderators -- if there are any or if they have any specific duties at all? they are not advertised as they are on other forums -- The moderators here never seem to lock posts no matter how off topic or degenerate they may get.

Of course, no offense to the owners or moderators of this site. I love the community here and it works well even with such laiser-faire policies.

[arbisley]

Probably the very beginning of technique is just another copy of what has been done before. People don't change, they do similar things to what they did 500 years ago and put a fancy name on it. Take for example, french TV: they're constantly showing things on the news as if they're the result of someone's amazing imagination. "We have discovered that children learn better whilst having fun" original-huh?

I think that it would be extremely boring if bernhard just posted a link to chang's book every time someone asked him a question! He does have a talent, or should I say, and acquired skill for convincing people of something because he tells it in a creative intelligent way, backed up with examples, experience etc.

Learning the piano is an extremely personal matter! Singers are more aware of the difference in technique because their body is the instrument, but pianists alike should think of their "configuration" as being unique, and that they should apply to themselves what works. Therefore comes the need to have a teacher who can comunicate to you and make YOU do things that you couldn't before. I discovered reading one of bernhard's posts that I was doing anyway what he was saying, but taking longer to achieve things because I didn't know what I was doing.

In my opinion, people who glorify Hanon (this is not supposed to be criticism) already do what Bernhard says, as I found out, that is, concentrating on moving the arm in the direction of the movement etc., basically, they naturally do what they should. It's like Alexander Technique; most people struggle doing things because they always do certain things the wrong way, but some people might come along and say they aren't difficult because they don;t have the problems in the first place. Bernhard is probably like "remedial" teacher. Points out the obvious things you are doing and tells you why you do them and how they can be improved.

Of course you shouldn't worship one person because we are all different and understand things in a different context. Being original in this context is explaining something in a way that a person "discovers" something from a new approach.

I might sound sexist, but I think that's one od the main reasons girls often have more trouble with maths. Our brains do work differently depending on our gender, and guys are bad at doing certain things which girls do naturally etc. They just can't work out the logic behing mathematics somtimes because that is not accustomed to them.

Same for us. We don't always like what bernhard says because he says it in a way we've never been told before. I get it pretty well, but then make it part of what I know already. Old technique shouldn't just be chucked out. They are misunderstood because they were formed in different environments from nowadays, and should be treated with caution. They nonetheless work in their own way. Just like bernhard does, and what I like about him is that he is persuasive, but leaves your opinion to yourself, doesn't try to sell it to you.

[kriskicksass]

I have a lot to disagree with Bernhard on (my insane love of technical exercises, TU vs TO in teaching, etc), but I've developed a lot of respect for him in my time here. Simply put, he is one of the hardest non-administrator members of this forum. Even if he occasionally takes a little hiatus every once in a while, you need only call his name and he'll respond (eventually).

Also, after beginning supplemental studies with a conservatory professor with a rather modern approach to technique, I have taken several of the techniques Berhnard advocates into my "bag of tricks," most notably the TO arpeggio, and in the proper context they are entirely appropriate.

(However, I feel obligated to say that for the elemantary, primary, and secondary levels of training, I find teaching TO to be inappropriate. A solid TO technique is founded in swift motions of the arm, flexible wrists, supple hands that can be rapidly expanded and contracted, and a solid TU technique. Couple that with the fact that telling a young student not to pass the thumb will immediately result in choppy scales and arps, and you can see why I find TU essential for pedagogical purposes.)

EDIT: And as for Bernhard not posting recordings, I like to believe that he has all the technological means to do so but still chooses not to. To ask a teacher to play for you before taking his/her advice is to say "put up or shut up" and spit in his eye. Asking for proof of one's skills before accepting his advice not only shows insolence but also a lack of trust and respect for that individual, and any student who doesn't have faith in a potential teacher's abilities doesn't deserve to study with that teacher. (I know I sound like a butthole, but you'd understand if you'd ever had a student ask you to play an audition for him rather than the other way around. The nerve of some people...)

[leucippus]

Asking for proof of one's skills before accepting his advice not only shows insolence but also a lack of trust and respect for that individual.

Welcome to the real world.  Employers always ask for experience, references, and/or credentials.  This is certainly true in the world of industry, but private people also do this when hiring a maid, a butler, a gardener, you name it.

What makes a music teacher exempt from this standard practice?

In fact, most people I know who seek out a music teacher do ask around for references.   So I think your statement here is unrealistic at best.   Asking for references or proof of skills isn't insolence, it's simply being smart.   Taking advice from someone you know nothing about is nothing short of gambling.   I'm not referring to Bernhard in particular as he does seem to have references here from other formulites who have taken his advice and found it to be useful.  I mean with over 5000 posts under his belt and a huge following of fans he must be doing something right.  That in itself is a credential that is noteworthy.  But in general your statement about showing insolence when asking for a person's resumé or skills is nothing short of absurd.  It's pretty much standard etiquette in today's society. There's nothing insolent about it at all. 

[c18cont]

Friends,

I am old compared to many of you, (67)...and have studied (and later taught at all levels), both music and math. I began study at age five....BUt NOTE!!

On the forum, you do not know if even that is true...That requires your own observations and intuitive reasoning, or just guessing....The anonymity of the internet requires it...It is a great...and yet terrible characteristic of being online, that we all face...

So it is for all of us in regarding Bernhard, other than any who may actually know him personally..

I say, I could never express myself as well, or be accepted as having understanding to the level of Bernhard, and I believe he is a much valued part of this group. I know that many of you see much the same thing; we then support each other..............

It's all we have to go on, and it is the final test of the position anyone on the internet occupies..I like and support Bernhard's material, as presented, and under the "rules" of the internet. I know many of you do so as well. 

My Regards,  John Cont

[ramseytheii]

Lang-Lang doesn't even know how to play music. The fact that he has incredible technique doesn't mean he actually 'known' anything. You don't get technique through knowledge. You get it through practice. And if you have unlimited time it doesn't really make that much of a difference how you practice, as long as you don't get any injuries.

I mean, Gould is one of the biggest names ever. Should we have taken advice from him on ergonomy just because his name is so big? Or about playing Mozart for that matter?

I think you are too extreme, because a lot of technique can come through knowledge, but then in the end one needs a certain amount of talent.  It reminds me of the story of a young man who wanted to study with Busoni; he played some Liszt for him, and Busoni said, "You are very talented."  THe student replied, "Yes, I worked for hours and hours on this piece."  To which Busoni said, "Perhaps you are not so talented."

But about taking someone's advice just beacuse of their reputation, I agree 100%.  I for the life of me cannot imagine why any young, impressionable piano student would put their lives at risk studying with such people as Gary Graffmann or Leon Fleischer, both piansits who frankly have no idea how to play the piano, and effectively ruined their own careers through too much harmful practice - Fleischer's "comeback" notwithstanding.  They once had big performing careers, which earned a certain reputation; but I would much rather study with someone who knew what they were talking about, and was unknown, then a famous person who has no clue.

Walter Ramsey

[thracozaag]

But about taking someone's advice just beacuse of their reputation, I agree 100%.  I for the life of me cannot imagine why any young, impressionable piano student would put their lives at risk studying with such people as Gary Graffmann or Leon Fleischer, both piansits who frankly have no idea how to play the piano, and effectively ruined their own careers through too much harmful practice - Fleischer's "comeback" notwithstanding.  They once had big performing careers, which earned a certain reputation; but I would much rather study with someone who knew what they were talking about, and was unknown, then a famous person who has no clue.

Walter Ramsey

 I guess I was (and am) one of those "young impressionable piano students", because what I learned from both of those amazing musicians cannot be measured.

koji

[arensky]

studying with such people as Gary Graffmann or Leon Fleischer, both piansits who frankly have no idea how to play the piano, and effectively ruined their own careers through too much harmful practice - Fleischer's "comeback" notwithstanding.  They once had big performing careers, which earned a certain reputation; but I would much rather study with someone who knew what they were talking about, and was unknown, then a famous person who has no clue.

Walter Ramsey

Well, I don't think you can say they didn't know how to play... listen to Fleisher's Brahms Bb Concerto and "Wanderer Fantasy", Graffman's Islamey and Prokofiev 3rd. My god, what amazing playing!

And yet you have a point, clearly they were doing something wrong, playing too hard, too fast, whatever; I don't know what they did to injure themselves. I heard Graffman before his injury, playing the Rachmaninov Paganini Rhapsody, and afterwards, playing the Beethoven 3rd Concerto. The Beethoven was the better performance, it had more involvement, spaciousness and a greater variety of tone color. Be that as it may if you were studying to be a fighter pilot, who would you want to be your instructor; the pilot who had never flown in combat, or the battle scarred veteran with a leg or arm off who could no longer fly, but had seen and done it all? There comes a point when the music student needs to hear it from the racing horse's mouth, not it's stablemate.

[ramseytheii]

Well, I don't think you can say they didn't know how to play... listen to Fleisher's Brahms Bb Concerto and "Wanderer Fantasy", Graffman's Islamey and Prokofiev 3rd. My god, what amazing playing!

And yet you have a point, clearly they were doing something wrong, playing too hard, too fast, whatever; I don't know what they did to injure themselves. I heard Graffman before his injury, playing the Rachmaninov Paganini Rhapsody, and afterwards, playing the Beethoven 3rd Concerto. The Beethoven was the better performance, it had more involvement, spaciousness and a greater variety of tone color. Be that as it may if you were studying to be a fighter pilot, who would you want to be your instructor; the pilot who had never flown in combat, or the battle scarred veteran with a leg or arm off who could no longer fly, but had seen and done it all? There comes a point when the music student needs to hear it from the racing horse's mouth, not it's stablemate.

Fleischer plays intermittently, after a pause of decades being unable to play with his right hand, and Grafmann performs not at all.  Their careers which could have been going through this whole time, what I mean is they could have been contributing great recordings like those this whole time (I especially love the Fleischer-Szell Beethoven recordings), were sidelined by harmful practicing.  I perhaps spoke too strongly in my first post, but it seems to me dangerous to take advice on how to practice, how to play, from these "battle scarred veterans."  Though the analogy is imperfect, because nobody ever said that from their injuries, they learned the rigth way to practice.  They survived as human beings, but their performing careers were shot down.  Much better to take advice on practicing and playing from someone who has known the right way.

Walter Ramsey

[netzow]

Does Bernhard get a free Gold Membership? If not someone should start a campaign

[leahcim]

I would submit that the bulk of my posts have nothing to do with the subject matter on Chang´s book. For instance....I have even posted pancake recipes

But you've not found a decent source for 'context' yet?

Perhaps the idea that piano teachers [or to that matter, people making pancakes] must be original may in part explain the lack of decent teachers and food to be found near me?