reincarnation

[johnny-boy]

“There is no reason for one to continue living, according to darwinism which 'designed' all life, after we have procreated.” – Prometheus

Maybe not for you and Darwin, but there sure as hell is for me!

“Death isn't eternal either. One isn't death. One dies. And once one has died one is no longer. Someone that has died can thus not be in a state of eternal death.” – Prometheus

Right,  you’re dead – forever.

John

[pianowolfi]

Souls have never been observed and they almost certainly don't exist. No afterlife has ever been found either. If there is one then it is very far away and it would take us a very very long time to reach it because of the limit of light speed.

Prometheus, i'm thinking a lot about your comments and I find them very interesting. I'm not a philosopher, so I'm not able to prove the existence of a soul for you, though i'd like to . For me whatsoever the daily life suggests the existence of a soul at every moment. I feel and I think. I can enjoy listening to or playing beautiful music. If someone offends me my soul hearts very distinctly and I feel its existence even more than I like...So I seem to observe soul every day. I can watch objects. I can even watch my thoughts without any additional physical instrument just by thinking. Why shouldn't I assume the existence of a soul? How long this soul exists is the next difficult philosophical question and I'm sure there have been written tons and tons of pro and con books about that subject. But don't claim there is no definition of what soul is, there are for sure millions among philosophers and psychologists.

Seems to be as a silly idea to try to delude yourself away from the fear of dying. I don't think it works either. These people still fear death.

I live with the opinion that soul, afterlife and reincarnation do exist. But it would be absolutely no problem for me to live with the opposite opinion if someone is able to prove me plausibly that these things don't exist. Maybe i would have less problems to live without the belief in all these "irrational" things. But yet I haven't met the person that could prove me all that definitely. Can you? The belief in soul, afterlife and so on indeed doesn't automatically take away the fear of death. I probably would be less scared of death if i knew there is nothing after it. So fear of death is no reason for me to believe in soul and afterlife. Or to believe in the contrary.

just a few aphoristic thoughts

[prometheus]

Maybe not for you and Darwin, but there sure as hell is for me!

Darwin didn't design you. I meant evolution as decribed by darwin. Why do we age? Because evolution never demanded a system that prevented us from ageing. If you die after you passed on your genes your genes will live on. And that is what it is all about. You are only a body for your genes to live through. Now if almost all creatures die of old age before they manage to pass through their genes their genes do not get passed through. Now, if there is a mutation making you live longer or age slower then that person has one less problem passing through their genes. So people with these genes will have more chances of passing them through. This means these genes become more dominant until all organisms of the paticular species have these genes.

Now, you may want to live forever. Actually I don't want to live forever but first off I wouldn't want to age at all. But I also would like to fly through the air using my wings. And it would be nice if I could dive in water really deep, and then swim along with the dolphins. It would also be really nice if I had wheels as well as legs. I could do down slopes really fast. But I don't have these things. And neither do you have all the things you want. Even if you call it logic it is totally irrelevant. Life on earth is not governed by your or mine logic. It has a logic of its own that we have come to understand. Thanks to people like Darwin.

Right,  you’re dead – forever.

After I die I no longer exist. So I can't do anything. That includes being dead. Only a few days after I die my body will still be there. But my dead body has little to do with me. Who I am is in my brain and after I am died it will no longer work. After hours of death the information stored in my brain will be lost forever while the connections build up in my neural network that is my brain start to decay. You can still revive a person after all brain activity is stopped. It will cause brain damage but you are still salvagable. Actually, if a brain stops working for too long and the person is still rivived the brain damage can be so severe we are actually talking about another person. Imagine waking up in the body of a person that has just had a near death experience.

[prometheus]

Prometheus, i'm thinking a lot about your comments and I find them very interesting. I'm not a philosopher, so I'm not able to prove the existence of a soul for you, though i'd like to .

I would like too, but that doesn't have any influence at that what we will really find. I would like to find a god and a soul and a heaven, etc etc. But I rather want to find how nature really is and accept her as she is.

But let me comment that neither I am a qualified philosopher and that in general a scientist of some kind do research. Contemporary philosophers most often work outside the field of science. Which I think a soul would not be, if it existed.

For me whatsoever the daily life suggests the existence of a soul at every moment. I feel and I think. I can enjoy listening to or playing beautiful music. If someone offends me my soul hearts very distinctly and I feel its existence even more than I like...So I seem to observe soul every day.

I am not sure how you define a soul. But to me, especially in this context, it would be some sort of 'organ' that stores our personality after we have died so that we can live in the afterlife or that we can be reincarnated.

Now, this definition has little to do with how one feels or how one can enjoy music. I think we can be sure to say that I don't have a soul. But that doesn't mean I can't enjoy music as much as you. Or that I have less sophisticated feelings, etc etc.
I have seen people claim that they were godly creatures and that I was a monkey because I supported darwinistic evolution while they believed in creationism. Regerdless of souls or no souls, regardless of ki, of karma, of creationism or evolution. We are all the same people.

Neurology and psychology do not conclude that the emotions human experience are impossible without souls. On the contrary. Using chemicals and drugs we can influence our feelings and emotions. Do you think that heroine has a particular influence on the soul? Actually, I think I have heard someone else make a similar point but a lot stronger. But I can't remember. I will try to look it up.

Why shouldn't I assume the existence of a soul?

Because there is no evidence for it. The fact that you feel like a human feels does not mean souls exist. I don't know exactly where you make this jump of logic, but you do somewhere.

How long this soul exists is the next difficult philosophical question...

Well, since souls 'purpose' is generally to make an afterlife possible and since these are often eternal we also know how long the souls decribed by these ideas exist according to these ideas.

...and I'm sure there have been written tons and tons of pro and con books about that subject. But don't claim there is no definition of what soul is, there are for sure millions among philosophers and psychologists.

But can anyone tell me how a soul works? If, like you seem to think, a soul influenced emotions we consider to be as typically human then can you decribe how this proces works? Is the brain linked up through the neural network? Does adreneline affect the soul? And when one dies is the soul something invisible containing my entity that floats into heaven? If so, what kind of matter is it made? Is it made by cells similar to the other cells in the human body? How do they differ with other neurological cells? Or is it a new form of matter? Where does it fit in with the standard system? Charge? Mass?

These are all needed for a theory of the soul to be presented. I am talking about a scientific theory and no that does not mean the same as those people that say: "Ooh, evolution is just a theory" think it means. I want a description that is complete so that we an go and look if it is true.

But yet I haven't met the person that could prove me all that definitely. Can you?

What do you want me to prove? The lack of existence of the soul? Or something else? I didn't quite get it.
Now I won't go into this before you answer this with the fear of wasting valuable bandwidth. My posts are already too lenghty.

The belief in soul, afterlife and so on indeed doesn't automatically take away the fear of death.

No, it doesn't. And this is so strange to me. If you believe that you go to heaven and if you truely believe it is eternal bliss. Then why not join right now? Of course the reason would be that suicide is a sin. But then when god takes your life, I would be absolutely delighted.
The fact that those people still don't want to die makes it very hard not to assume that their faith isn't as strong as they claim. And I think that goes for most religious ideas. I believe, and I don't use the world often, that these people, in the back of their mind, know it is all non-sense. No disrespect to the people who delude themselves, they can still be as nice or as bad as any other human, but I do believe this is probably true.

I probably would be less scared of death if i knew there is nothing after it. So fear of death is no reason for me to believe in soul and afterlife.

What do you fear then? Judgement? Hell? Uncertainty? I guess the main reason for fear of death, which I will now claim I don't have but when it happens I will probably not be so sure anymore, is uncertainty. Death is a major event in your life. You don't remember birth or conception of course. So this is really the only big event you ever experience. But you don't know what happens to you after you die. Now for some reason the human brain does have a problem imagining how it would be when you do not exist. The reason is of course that it is both impossible and unneeded if it were not. So we have this big event, with all kinds of expectations but absolute uncertainty as well; no one has returned to us back from death to tell us what it was like. And as far as we know it isn't possible.


I also want to know that one should be sceptical when making conclusions about ones own motivations. You cannot analyse the functioning of your own mind. I have a long list of things about myself that I have been trying to explain to myself and others. These lists are becomming longer and longer and I am becomming less certain that I will ever be able to understand my own inner workings.

[johnny-boy]

"After I die I no longer exist. So I can't do anything"- Prometheus

Right, because you're dead, forever. I don't understand your point.

John

[prometheus]

I am not dead. I am no longer. So how can I be anything if I can't be anything because I don't exist?

This was just partly a joke and partly trying to avoid someone making the argument that one can be dead eternally so that something can happen eternally. But being dead is not something that happens. It is the lack of something happening to something that lacks existence.

Ok, I am sure someone else understands this. If Johnny still doesn't get the nuance in difference betwene 'being death' and 'dying' then someone else can give it a try. Maybe that will work.

[johnny-boy]

Dead is dead no matter how you state it.

John

[prometheus]

Yes, but there is a difference in the use of words.

If you are being in heaven you are being dead. But if you stop existing then you die but you never are in a state of death. So in theory there would be a difference between the two.

[pianowolfi]

I would like to find a god and a soul and a heaven, etc etc. But I rather want to find how nature really is and accept her as she is.

 I completely agree. Same for me. But these two aren't necessarily  inconsistent imo.

I am not sure how you define a soul. But to me, especially in this context, it would be some sort of 'organ' that stores our personality after we have died so that we can live in the afterlife or that we can be reincarnated.

 According to the German Philosopher Franz Brentano the main characteristic of the soul is Intentionalityhttps://plato.stanford.edu/entries/brentano/#Intentionality perhaps that will help us a bit.

Now, this definition has little to do with how one feels or how one can enjoy music. I think we can be sure to say that I don't have a soul. But that doesn't mean I can't enjoy music as much as you. Or that I have less sophisticated feelings, etc etc.
I have seen people claim that they were godly creatures and that I was a monkey because I supported darwinistic evolution while they believed in creationism. Regerdless of souls or no souls, regardless of ki, of karma, of creationism or evolution. We are all the same people.

For me it would be a real offense to you if I would claim you have no soul. (Btw I have nothing to do with creationists)

Do you think that heroine has a particular influence on the soul?

Yes, the soul can be influenced by physical, chemical and physiological processes.

What do you want me to prove? The lack of existence of the soul?

  Yes.

What do you fear then? Judgement? Hell? Uncertainty?

The latter

  I guess the main reason for fear of death, which I will now claim I don't have but when it happens I will probably not be so sure anymore, is uncertainty. Death is a major event in your life.

Yes and a very interesting one I think https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,16922.msg205420.html#msg205420

[BoliverAllmon]

Being in heaven I couldn't bear to know that at the same time another human being is condemned to hell for eternity. That's something I wouldn't wish even on my worst enemy. So heaven would not be heaven for me, sort of...

In some ways I agree, but not sure how I will handle it.

boliver

[prometheus]

I completely agree. Same for me. But these two aren't necessarily  inconsistent imo.

They are. We haven't found a soul, a god or a heaven in nature. We did find it in a book written by bronze age people.

According to the German Philosopher Franz Brentano the main characteristic of the soul is Intentionalityhttps://plato.stanford.edu/entries/brentano/#Intentionality perhaps that will help us a bit.

Ok, I will read it later.

Yes, the soul can be influenced by physical, chemical and physiological processes.

How? And if this is true, wouldn't it have to be true that we can observe the soul? I mean, if the soul interacts with out brain then surely we can measure the effect of the soul on the brain?

  Yes.

It is a logical possibility to prove the lack of somethings existence. That is why I have been talking about a theory. If you want to have a model of reality someone else is going to accept it needs to be falsifiable. This means that the theory must actually say something that is verifiable.

Imagine someone trying to disprove the existence of, lets say fairies. One would have to look everywhere to make sure they are no where. But then they can also be invisible. Or in another dimension, or on another planet. Or in another time-line. So how do you think we would be able to prove the lack of fairies, goblins, invisible pink unicorns, etc etc. The list is as endless as you want it to make.

Surely no one believes in something because no one can prove that it does not exist. So if this is true we don't need to discuss it any futher.

[pianowolfi]

Now, prometheus, another problem. Yesterday my wife payed me a nice compliment saying: "You have a beautiful soul!"(And she does'nt believe in afterlife and such.) What do I do if I have no soul?!!! "You know, honey, there is no soul. That must be an error."

[johnny-boy]

Now, prometheus, another problem. Yesterday my wife payed me a nice compliment saying: "You have a beautiful soul!"(And she does'nt believe in afterlife and such.) What do I do if I have no soul?!!! "You know, honey, there is no soul. That must be an error."

Maybe she was talking about the sole of your foot pianowolfi.

John

[zheer]

 I hope not, i like to think that when its all over a   , slow deep warm sounding voices are heard which send amazing sensation through-out the body, one then begins to see his or her self birds eye view slowly but surly reaching the sky and all else seem pointless and not relevant, this process being the most majica and amazing thing to happen to any person. One then beging to feel very light safe happy and free as though flyin as one enter a state of zero total zero into nothingness.

[prometheus]

The word 'soul' does not always refer to the supernatural or biblical 'soul'.


https://thesaurus.reference.com/search?q=soul

[pianowolfi]

Maybe she was talking about the sole of your foot pianowolfi.

John

impossible because in German soul= Seele; sole= Sohle 

[prometheus]

So it is more probable that she referred to the capital of S-Korea.

[johnny-boy]

I’ve been thinking about the questions posed on this thread. I think if there is nothing more than our short lifespan on this Earth then what good is. I want to continue to live and develop forever; otherwise there’s no significance in life (at least not on a personal level).

I still maintain; if we can come into existence once, it can happen again and again. If the first man and woman can be created, then why can’t they be recreated? Also I think “who we are” is determined by more than our environment. I think there are characteristics imbedded in our souls that aren’t formed during our life on Earth (possibly from another time and place).

The existence of life boggles the mind. We speculate about it, we joke about it, we worry about it, and when we’re completely alone in the quiet of night we desperately plead for answers. The human race is very insecure; and understandably so. We can play the role of the tough guy/gal but underneath we’re all insecure.

We’re not going to find the answers on this side of life – it’s probably not possible. We’ll only know (or not know) when we make the ultimate journey through life’s “passage through death”.

This thread has come to an end for me. There are no answers to be found here or anywhere else on Earth.

Journey on…

John

[pianowolfi]

This thread has come to an end for me. There are no answers to be found here or anywhere else on Earth.

You sound pessimistic to me. Perhaps there ARE some answers. I don't give up searching. The great masterworks of music and other arts f.e. maybe a kind of answer to huge questions like that. Why should huge questions have simple one-sentenced answers, or even answers that are expressible with words at all? Perhaps we just tend too look for answers at the wrong places?

[lisztisforkids]

Heaven is Mozart playing on...

[johnny-boy]

You sound pessimistic to me. Perhaps there ARE some answers. I don't give up searching. The great masterworks of music and other arts f.e. maybe a kind of answer to huge questions like that. Why should huge questions have simple one-sentenced answers, or even answers that are expressible with words at all? Perhaps we just tend too look for answers at the wrong places?

Not pessimistic at all pianowolfi.  I just realize there are questions (for whatever reason) can't be answered in this lifetime. Even if someone comes up with the right answer we won’t know for sure.

Saying this; I do believe in an afterlife. Otherwise we’re living for another purpose other than ours.

John