Arm Weight, Wrist, Hand weight, finger movement

[liszt-essence]

Generally I have been told that

"your fingers should only support your hand's weight, and not actually press on the keys"

My question to any advanced pianist here is, how does this work for you?

And how do you use your arm weight, your wrists and your hand weight? And how do you incorporate all of those things with finger movement?

(I know this might be a very general question, but I hope that anyone would have an answer to it)

[franz_]

First of all, every hand is different. So exactly copy from a virtuoso will never work. You have to search yourself the best way, the easyest way to progress. In generally, it are the fingers that move, and not the whole arm. The wrist can help you coordinate and give a driection but when f.e. playing scales, you don't have to move your whole hand/wrist. Just the fingers. For octaves f.e., you need a very souple wrist, when you contract your wrist, it will never work. Practice, try out, search,.. for yourself.

[kriskicksass]

Each part of your mechanism (ie. your hands, arms, etc) can be used for any part of piano playing. Depending on the situation, I may use my fingers for volume and my arms for tone focus and control, or I may do the exact opposite.
There is no universal way to play the piano. Each different touch, weighting, whatever leads to different tone, different colors, and different volumes; what's really important is that you know how your mechanism works and how to make all the different sounds you need (and hopefully when it is appropriate to use those sounds).

[franz_]

Just an example: Kissin and Horowitz, 2 fantastic pianists. Both have greath technique, and both hold their hands totally different.

[liszt-essence]

Thank you both for your advice.

To get a little bit more specific then,

My playing varies from day tot day , even from hour to hour.  I have very little concistency in my playing, also the sounds I produce vary greatly.

Often I produce a rather 'woody, mechanical' sound that often lacks in volume.
 
Or I produce a very 'hard and loud' sound wherein the notes itself sound more like eachother and there is less distinction between them making the piece very loud and dull.


I've been looking for ways to make a correct sound but haven't found one. And if you both say that this is a personal thing, which is pretty logical tho then there really isnt any point in asking these questions of particulair 'how-to' things.

So my new question is then, did you go through a similair period and what did you learn?

[pianistimo]

i've learned that very little effort goes into playing the piano.  pretend you are dead.  sit at the piano.  (don't fall over) lift your arm up but let you hand be floppy.  at first don't even try to hit all the right notes - notice how much speed you have.

now, if you want all the right notes - play a little slower and pretend the piano is a massage patient.  you are massaging the keyboard.  go in and out and about with your hands.

now, shut your eyes.  i always play in the dark after a good practice session.  minimal lighting so i don't rely so much on the music - but more on the sounds.  this has helped me achieve the sound i want much more than having the lights on and focusing on notes.

[faulty_damper]

Generally I have been told that

"your fingers should only support your hand's weight, and not actually press on the keys"

Who generally told you this?  If you followed this direction, and you probably did as it's an easy direction, you would know how this works.  So the question is "how does it work for you?"

Out of curiosity, are you asking because you have tried it?  Did you find it a terrible advice?  So are you asking because you didn't think you followed the direction correctly?  Did this advice come from someone who you thought was an authority?  And are you now unsure that this advice is credible given that it doesn't seem to work?

So my new question is then, did you go through a similair period and what did you learn?

Yes, I went through this same period when I was a new student and tried everything an ambitious student could get his hands on.  Almost all of it was useless and some of it actually damaging.  I even imitated these "great" musicians and sometimes, it was actually better than what I was doing but later found even better ways, easier ways than what I originally imitated.

Your question is about technique.  From what you describe (woody, mechanical, varying greatly) there is no way you can get better as a pianist no matter how much you practice.  You may gain greater control but its only greater control of a poor techniqnue.  This means infinite hours of practicing to "get it right" instead of having it correct from the beginning and fine-tuning it with practice.

This reminds me of a time when I wanted to light a candle (it was actually firecracker) so I went to get a magnifying glass.  It was sunny but cloudy and I had to wait until the clouds moved to expose the sun before there was any intensity to the light focusing on the wick.  It took quite a long time as the clouds would block the sun now and then.  I was persistent and took pleasure in the attempt.  After much time, finally, I was able to light the candle.

"POP!!!"
Quite unexpected.  Not that I didn't expect it.  Seeing some smoke.  Did it light up? Was it about to burst?  I gave it a second more.  A second too long.  I didn't expect it, not so soon.

I couldn't hear very well.  Everything in my right ear was muffled like there was cotton stuffed down my ear canal.  My left ear was better as I had turned that side away to protect myself from the impending explosion.  I didn't know that wick was already lit and by the time I covered myself, it was too late.  I was deaf in my right ear.

I could have just taken a lighter and lit the wick.  It would have been much easier and produced a faster and more predictable result but what fun would that be?  Trying to do something in a manner that was terribly stupid, at least in retrospect, gave me a result that could have had permanant damage.  I had the option of a lighter - faster and better result, but I chose the magnifying glass - caused deafness.  Which one would I choose now?

See, playing the piano is like lighting a candle.  Using a poor tool can lead to undesirable results but using the proper tools can mean better, faster, and more consistent results.  Both will get the job done but one will require more effort than needed.  Am I still deaf in my right ear?  After a few hours I regained my hearing (with only slight permanent damage).  Being a human being with some degree of intelligence, I no longer light candles with magnifying glasses.  I just wait for somebody else do it.

[bernhard]

Who generally told you this?  If you followed this direction, and you probably did as it's an easy direction, you would know how this works.  So the question is "how does it work for you?"

Out of curiosity, are you asking because you have tried it?  Did you find it a terrible advice?  So are you asking because you didn't think you followed the direction correctly?  Did this advice come from someone who you thought was an authority?  And are you now unsure that this advice is credible given that it doesn't seem to work?
Yes, I went through this same period when I was a new student and tried everything an ambitious student could get his hands on.  Almost all of it was useless and some of it actually damaging.  I even imitated these "great" musicians and sometimes, it was actually better than what I was doing but later found even better ways, easier ways than what I originally imitated.

Your question is about technique.  From what you describe (woody, mechanical, varying greatly) there is no way you can get better as a pianist no matter how much you practice.  You may gain greater control but its only greater control of a poor techniqnue.  This means infinite hours of practicing to "get it right" instead of having it correct from the beginning and fine-tuning it with practice.

This reminds me of a time when I wanted to light a candle (it was actually firecracker) so I went to get a magnifying glass.  It was sunny but cloudy and I had to wait until the clouds moved to expose the sun before there was any intensity to the light focusing on the wick.  It took quite a long time as the clouds would block the sun now and then.  I was persistent and took pleasure in the attempt.  After much time, finally, I was able to light the candle.

"POP!!!"
Quite unexpected.  Not that I didn't expect it.  Seeing some smoke.  Did it light up? Was it about to burst?  I gave it a second more.  A second too long.  I didn't expect it, not so soon.

I couldn't hear very well.  Everything in my right ear was muffled like there was cotton stuffed down my ear canal.  My left ear was better as I had turned that side away to protect myself from the impending explosion.  I didn't know that wick was already lit and by the time I covered myself, it was too late.  I was deaf in my right ear.

I could have just taken a lighter and lit the wick.  It would have been much easier and produced a faster and more predictable result but what fun would that be?  Trying to do something in a manner that was terribly stupid, at least in retrospect, gave me a result that could have had permanant damage.  I had the option of a lighter - faster and better result, but I chose the magnifying glass - caused deafness.  Which one would I choose now?

See, playing the piano is like lighting a candle.  Using a poor tool can lead to undesirable results but using the proper tools can mean better, faster, and more consistent results.  Both will get the job done but one will require more effort than needed.  Am I still deaf in my right ear?  After a few hours I regained my hearing (with only slight permanent damage).  Being a human being with some degree of intelligence, I no longer light candles with magnifying glasses.  I just wait for somebody else do it.

Another legendary post by faulty!

[liszt-essence]

Pianistimo, thanks for the advice, im going to try it.

Faulty, I don't get your point, you speak too mysteriously and philosophical for me.

" there is no way you can get better as a pianist no matter how much you practice. "

I totally disagree with that, I have become better as a pianist since I started practicing.

Maybe I just don't understand what you are saying so please feel free to enlighten me

 

[bernhard]

Pianistimo, thanks for the advice, im going to try it.

Faulty, I don't get your point, you speak too mysteriously and philosophical for me.

" there is no way you can get better as a pianist no matter how much you practice. "

I totally disagree with that, I have become better as a pianist since I started practicing.

Maybe I just don't understand what you are saying so please feel free to enlighten me

 

This is actually a wonderful mental state to be in.

You´ve read something intriguing that seems to go against everything you believe.

At the back of your mind there is that nagging doubt that maybe, just maybe you have been wasting a lot of time on the wrong thing (look at  my signature quote).

Then you hang on for dear life to your beliefs even though you are now sligtly unsure.

This is truly exciting!

In zen Buddhism, one pursues a particular experience called "enlightenment". The zen master laughs his hear out: "You are already enlightned! What are you pursuing?" Btu the student is not convinced. In certain traditions (e.g. Rinzai-Zen) the maser will provide the student with a "Koan": an apparently non-sensical, illogical question, to which he guarantees there is an answer - in order to focus the student´s efforts (even though - the master assures us - effortlessness should be the aim of our efforts).

Take Faulty´s post as your koan. It is a most excellent one!

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[nyquist]

Generally I have been told that

"your fingers should only support your hand's weight, and not actually press on the keys"

My question to any advanced pianist here is, how does this work for you?

And how do you use your arm weight, your wrists and your hand weight? And how do you incorporate all of those things with finger movement?

(I know this might be a very general question, but I hope that anyone would have an answer to it)

I am not an advanced pianist but I will answer anyway.  For the piano to make sound a key needs to be lowered.  To take key-drop one coordinates several mechanisms, below (each of which could be used in isolation):

1) The finger moving from the knuckle joint
2) The hand moving from the wrist (moving the knuckle joint)
3) The forearm rotating (moving the knuckle joint)
4) The forearm moving from the elbow joint (moving the wrist and the knuckle joint)
5) The upper-arm moving from the shoulder moving the elbow back (also moving the wrist and knuckle)

Different piano playing approaches emphasize different mixes.  I study with a teacher of the Taubman technique.  (Taubman teachers do not speak in these terms necessarily.)  My current understanding is that Taubman emphasizes 1, 3 and 4.  (2 sneaks in as "shaping".  There is almost none of  5).  Seymour Fink uses 5.   The older "finger technique" preaches the exclusive use of 1. (Here is an idea: pick your favorite set and found your own piano teaching school.)

Say we are talking about "scaly" passages.  To play each note the tip of the finger moves towards the keybed by a combination of the finger moving from the knuckle joint while this joint itself is moving because the forearm is rotating and at the same time the elbow joint is opening (extending).  There is a "wind up" phase before each note in which the three mechanisms are prepared: finger is raised at the knuckle, the forearm counterrotates, the elbow joint contracts.  If one uses the three mechanisms, none needs to call attention to itself.  The overall appearance is of small movements with the hand staying close to the keyboard and almost a "twitchy" feeling to it.

Part of the training is to coordinate the wind-up and execution of a series of consecutive notes in an efficient and (it is to be hoped) graceful way.  In-and-out movements, variation of the height of the wrist (shaping) and of the angle of the forearm to the keyboard serve to accomplish this.

I don't believe that this can be learned without a teacher.  (It can be hard to learn with a teacher.)

nyquist

[pianistimo]

very succint.

i was going to say that faculty_damper had some similarities to bernhard in his story telling abilities.  i have my piano in secondary sunlight - so i don't expect it to explode if i use a magnifying glass.  but, i have seen people use them in the evening when their eyes are tired.  perhaps i will try that.  hopefully the pages won't burn if i do it in full sunlight.  i will watch for smoke first.

*i'd sort of like to see that experiment, live.

[benedict park]

I dont really "care" about stances etc. 
i know its important, but i usually with my OWN STYLE 
such as my wierd fingering on the fastest songs lol.

...

[liszt-essence]

Nyquist,  thank you for your explanation. It's very handy to have a good technical oversight of how my arms and fingers work together, I will focus my attention more to these mechanics and hopefully it will really sink in so I will be able to find a very natural sensitivity in my 'control'


Bernhard, although I appreciate your involvment, I don't really think that you are able to tell what's going on in the back of my mind and what's not. But I thank you for your help and I really appreciate that so don't get me wrong please.

Faulty, I have read through your reply a couple of times and I still don't understand.. hopefully the deeper meaning of what you're really trying to tell me will show it self to me sooner or later. 

Thank you,
Tom
 

[bernhard]

Bernhard, although I appreciate your involvment, I don't really think that you are able to tell what's going on in the back of my mind and what's not. But I thank you for your help and I really appreciate that so don't get me wrong please.

You are not in a wonderful mental state then. 

BW
B.

[liszt-essence]

You are not in a wonderful mental state then. 

BW
B.

"You´ve read something intriguing that seems to go against everything you believe. "

Bernhard, I simply don't understand what that guy is talking about..

Now maybe if I did, maybe then it would interfere with everything I believe. But untill I understand, no

[nick]

Generally I have been told that

"your fingers should only support your hand's weight, and not actually press on the keys"

My question to any advanced pianist here is, how does this work for you?

And how do you use your arm weight, your wrists and your hand weight? And how do you incorporate all of those things with finger movement?

(I know this might be a very general question, but I hope that anyone would have an answer to it)

The use of weight to depress keys for rapid scale like passages for me has been the wrong thing to do. Raised fingers only with only enough pressure to keep the key down once struck has been exactly what I have been after. Watch pianists that you admire their sound and see what they look like when they play and then imagine the possibilities of how they produced those sounds, then think of ways you can narrow down the choices until you think you've got it, and then practice that way and see what happens. Good luck!

Nick

[loops]

you know, there are N billion ways to move all the various muscles involved in depressing a piano key, and after reading various anatomy books, investigating a physics book about how the elbow is a lever, trying all the different advices such as to hit keys from a great height with relaxed arms to get a ringing sound etc etc etc, I decided that frankly hitting the piano keys was NOT something that should be dealt with by my conscious mind.

However, my conscious mind likes to be involved and participate in getting things "right". So, the tasks I gave it were 1) give up notions of right and wrong 2) to observe what was happening specifically with regard to whether my hands were tense or strained in any way 3) observe the quality of the sound. If my hand is tense or wrist strained I think how to get a natural flowing action (this is where giving up right and wrong is important. Why should I get tendonitis because some idiot in a book says piano playing has to be done without moving x, y and z muscles?) 

Think about relaxed arms: obviously, you don't want to sound like you hit the keys with a chair leg, so you are advised to play with relaxed arms. But if you are so relaxed your fingers are floppy, you get  twiddleypoops, so you have to have some muscle being "strong". But which ones? How strong? Are you relaxed 1 cm above the wrist and 92% tense for 73% of x,y z remaining muscles? maybe only in this passage and 64% tense in another passage? This is the kind of thing conscious mind gets involved in if you let it and it leads to only one result: tension ..... I have to be relaxed     ...........  !!!!!!!

Also, it is illogical to suppose that only one particular theory works for all music, all hands and all personalities.

Much better to trust that your body will learn to produce the sound you want provided you allow it to, by observing accurately and without judgement.

[liszt-essence]

Something intresting happened during these last days and since I started this topic.

Since I got to pick the mind of the pianists here, it seems like something was triggered inside of me.

Not so much a technical thing. More like an insight, something picked up on a sub-concious level.

It's like I discovered something I was forgatten, I got more self assured of my discovering the piano and various techniques. That discovery is a very unique path, that there is no such thing as a 'one and only' way.

Conciously I always knew this, but it seemed that I just 'Feared' to go there. To take the step to go. To learn how to fly.

Loops, you're just goddamned right

I thank everybody for their support and answers.

[quasimodo]

It's like I discovered something I was forgatten, I got more self assured of my discovering the piano and various techniques. That discovery is a very unique path, that there is no such thing as a 'one and only' way.

However, the shortest (therefore the less exhausting) path  from a point to another is straight line. Sometimes you can't go this way, but when you can and don't then you're acting stupid.

If I come back to your initial post and thread-title, you seem to imply your piano-playing is essentially based on finger movements, yet finger movement is not necessarily a "straight-line". The "straight-line", most economic way of depressing the keys is to share the effort between different parts of your body, especially from the shoulders to the tip of your finger(s). Using only fingers means all the effort is localized in the finger and the muscles which command it, therefore it's more tiring because the intensity is localized there, while the rest of your physical ressources are not used.

If I understand correctly that's what is behind faulty's metaphore: the straight-line to light a fire is to use a lighter, not a magnifying glass.

[liszt-essence]

If I come back to your initial post and thread-title, you seem to imply your piano-playing is essentially based on finger movements

No my playing is not based on finger movements.. Just like you said, I (try) to use my whole body when playing (including from shoulder to fingertip)

I made a mistake to try to use my fingers down from the point where the main knuckles start (the ones closest to the wrist) just for weight converting. So I avoided curling them and playing with that part as well. Now I actually use them again.  (Haven't been trying that for too long tho)

[bernhard]

Something intresting happened during these last days and since I started this topic.

Since I got to pick the mind of the pianists here, it seems like something was triggered inside of me.

Not so much a technical thing. More like an insight, something picked up on a sub-concious level.

It's like I discovered something I was forgatten, I got more self assured of my discovering the piano and various techniques. That discovery is a very unique path, that there is no such thing as a 'one and only' way.

Conciously I always knew this, but it seemed that I just 'Feared' to go there. To take the step to go. To learn how to fly.

Loops, you're just goddamned right

I thank everybody for their support and answers.

I told you so!

You solved your koan.

How does it feel, to be enlightened?

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[Loops and Nyquist: another two legendary posts! ]

[liszt-essence]

I told you so!

You solved your koan.

How does it feel, to be enlightened?

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[Loops and Nyquist: another two legendary posts! ]

It feels good..

Yeah..

[nick]

Thank you both for your advice.


Often I produce a rather 'woody, mechanical' sound that often lacks in volume.
 
Or I produce a very 'hard and loud' sound wherein the notes itself sound more like eachother and there is less distinction between them making the piece very loud and dull.


I've been looking for ways to make a correct sound but haven't found one. And if you both say that this is a personal thing, which is pretty logical tho then there really isnt any point in asking these questions of particulair 'how-to' things.

So my new question is then, did you go through a similair period and what did you learn?

Have you found your answer yet?  When you said you produce a woody sound that is not very loud, I personally would go for that. It indicates you most likely are not using weight to produce the sound which I think causes lack of clarity, much like your second sentence saying- or it is loud and lacks distinction between notes. Many people on this forum and elsewhere use weight to produce the sound and it may work for them, but in my experience no. Crystal clarity was lacking and the fingers were not as energetic, although oodles of volume. I choose less volume for clarity.

Nick

[archneko]

there is no exact position. Just as long as your hand is relaxed, your wrist isn't creating a hump, and that your fingers are curved. The reason your hand should be curved is that you would have more mobility and it'll help you play really fast songs while the flat finger thingy causes alot of tension. I think the wrist in an awkward position is a case of tendonitis?