can anyone buy me this piano?

[bearzinthehood]

That's a notation convention.  Because of rubato you can play them before or after the left hand (which keeps a steady tempo), as long as they sound like a melody.  I recommend you explore period performance practices before you go around preaching that anyone is doing something wrong.  It only bespeaks the limitations in your understanding.   

I'd like to see your source on these performance practices.  I generally would be weary of a performance practice that is contrary to what is written.  And it's perfectly possible to play it rubato and still play the rhythm as written.

[pianistimo]

bradley lehmann puts it this way.  it's a matter of preference.  bradley says some people like strict tempos - everybody steady (organ solo - 'light my fire' by the doors).  then, there's general rubato where the beat slows down and speeds up (julie andrews - first part of 'the sound of music' where kostal is conducting a steady beat but they speed up and slow down within the limitations). and finally, melodic rubato - where quantz, mozart, and chopin take the lead.  one or more parts 'bend' cleverly ahead or behind the beat. 

schumann was a bit old fashioned - so i think it fits, here.  also, he was highly sensitive to voice.  often, in voice, you have spots where there is an actual 'breath' sort of written into the piano part (and other times you cut short the beat to make the space for the breath) and other times not.  when it is not written in - there is a sort of rubato with the melody over a very strict accompaniment.  when i hear it the way my teacher plays - it is as if an instrument or voice is singing above the accompaniment and doing whatever it is moved to do.  sort of as jazz, today.  we hear the inspiration and not just the 'steady beat.'

hope that this is what my teacher might say.  i don't really know his reasons.  i do know that he has studied with some really great teachers and knows what he is doing.  in fact, i kinda doubt what i said before about him sightreading - because he is not known for making mistakes even then.  he would at least practice something easy until he 'got it.'  apparently this is what he meant to do, imo.

[iumonito]

I'd like to see your source on these performance practices.  I generally would be weary of a performance practice that is contrary to what is written.  And it's perfectly possible to play it rubato and still play the rhythm as written.

If you seriously want to open your mind to this, I will be happy to throw a few guide posts.  Otherwise, I have no interest in spending any time on fighting about this.

You should start here, including the materials cited:  https://www.societymusictheory.org/smt/pdf/ped/2005RothsteinDescription.pdf

Get a hint here, then tie it to the body of literature on the same approach in Mozart (for example, in the memorable Konrad Wolf book).  https://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/viewArticle.asp?articleID=237

More on point, get this and absorb it:  https://www.musicweb.uk.net/classrev/2003/Nov03/Schumann7_Vorraber.htm

Matching dotted rhythm and triplets is quite common.  You should need nothing more than the Konrad Wolf book (which beautifully illustrates that in such situation the exception to the rule is to play 4 against 3).

I am trying not to be annoyed by you.  There is more to music than what can be notated.

[pianistimo]

the liner notes on vorraber were really enlightening to me.  the other ideas were too, but mostly the way it was explained in the last thread you gave.  tonight i will sleep better knowing that maybe my ear is not playing tricks so much as telling me that i liked what i heard.  sometimes you have to learn to trust your ear again - after growing up.  when children are small - they just like what they like.  what they hear that makes them move spontaneously.  the upbow of a violin - the dance - whatever.  then, after  a certain number of lessons everything is pedantic. 

now, i think i also see that 'touch of God' to man in michelangelo's painting.  it is a creative spirit going beyond the composer to the performer who is touched to 'create again.'  you have to be careful doing too much of this -  but i think my teacher is always tasteful.

[bearzinthehood]

If you seriously want to open your mind to this, I will be happy to throw a few guide posts.  Otherwise, I have no interest in spending any time on fighting about this.

You should start here, including the materials cited:  https://www.societymusictheory.org/smt/pdf/ped/2005RothsteinDescription.pdf

Get a hint here, then tie it to the body of literature on the same approach in Mozart (for example, in the memorable Konrad Wolf book).  https://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/viewArticle.asp?articleID=237

More on point, get this and absorb it:  https://www.musicweb.uk.net/classrev/2003/Nov03/Schumann7_Vorraber.htm

Matching dotted rhythm and triplets is quite common.  You should need nothing more than the Konrad Wolf book (which beautifully illustrates that in such situation the exception to the rule is to play 4 against 3).

I am trying not to be annoyed by you.  There is more to music than what can be notated.

Ok look, I know what rubato is.  Every once in a while you come across something in Chopin that's like 22 against 12 which could benefit from rubato.  This, I don't think is such a case.  Had Schumann indeed intended that this be played as was on the recording then he could have notated it as such, it's not something impossible to notate.  Furthermore, I think it sounds better as it is currently notated.  So, play it however you like, but I know what is written and I know what I like to hear, and in this case they are both the same.

[pianistimo]

that's where interpretation becomes an individual thing.  some like melodic rubato and others don't.  when you are an emerging artist (which i think my teacher has already emerged) you have to have something about your recordings that are worthy of recognition.  otherwise, you are the millionth person to play it exactly as everyone else.  i'm not saying that anne sophie mutter is a bad violinist - but she takes very slow tempis (which help hear every single note and phrase and utterance) but haifetz takes some element of risk.  when you hear an artist take a risk - you say - 'i will probably never hear this particular performance again.'

usually, it has some element of jazz freeness (unexact note placement).  i dare you to find ANY longtime favorite performances that do not have this in some form or other.

[teresa_b]

  I generally would be weary of a performance practice that is contrary to what is written.  And it's perfectly possible to play it rubato and still play the rhythm as written.

Can you direct me to a performance online, or a sample on Amazon, or anything, where this is performed "as written"?  I get what you're saying, but what I understand is "correct" is simply the RH dotted 16th note coming a very tiny increment earlier than as played by pianistimo's teacher. 

I have listened, out of curiosity, to a couple of renditions from albums on Amazon--the rhythm is identical to the one here.

Teresa

[pianistimo]

really, i'm learning something here, too.  i would probably have done as bearzinthehood and divided everything up equally.  he does have good ears to hear the difference.  i think this difference is good - and i didn't realize there were others that do the same on this particular piece.  perhaps my teacher isn't all genius - but i don't want to take away this image of him.  i like to think he thought of this all by himself. 

i've heard him practicing and practicing different ways of approaching a passage.  usually, i'm content to just play it.  must be like gourmet cooking.  you have to not only have good ingredients - but jazz it up, so to speak.

[iumonito]

Ok look, I know what rubato is.  Every once in a while you come across something in Chopin that's like 22 against 12 which could benefit from rubato.  This, I don't think is such a case.  Had Schumann indeed intended that this be played as was on the recording then he could have notated it as such, it's not something impossible to notate.  Furthermore, I think it sounds better as it is currently notated.  So, play it however you like, but I know what is written and I know what I like to hear, and in this case they are both the same.

   This is what makes art beautiful, if that's the way you like it, that is the end of it.

Be mindful, though, that those who disagree with you are not wrong, we just disagree.

Don't forget to make the rest underneath start and last exactly as notated.  I guess you will get a nice 3 against 2 that way.