Just Friends ?

[m1469]

Do you think it's possible for two people to just be friends if they are generally both intimately attracted to whichever gender the other is ?

[ted]

Yes.

[mephisto]

Yes.

[arbisley]

Yes.

[bernhard]

It depends.

If the friendship is in addition to a fulfilment of the (I am assuming sexual) attraction, then yes. (I would imagine that in most successful marriages/long term couplings friendship is a very important component).

However, if the attraction is not fulfilled / satisfied (usually because one of the parties is not interested - if they both are the attraction will be fulfilled and we are back on the case above), then no, because true friendship cannot flourish in the presence of the resulting deep feelings of frustration, resentment and repression of feelings. If one of the persons is blissfully unaware of it, this lack of awareness will in time be interpreted (correctly) as lack of appreciation/consideration. Soon the attracted person will become a "confident" and experience all sorts of intense sufferings. I cannot imagine anything less condicive to true freindship. If the feelings (again not mutual) do surface, then intense embarrassment will again prevent any true firendship. So, no, it is not possible.

Ted and Mephisto are either talking about the first case (fulfilled attraction), or they are wishful thinkers in deep denial (or still hoping)

(And Arbisley is just too young to know better)

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[prometheus]

I don't understand the question. Do you mean that it would be hard to be not more than friends or do you mean it would be impossible to be friends if you can't be partners because a partner is a friend of the gender you are attracted to?

Obviously every human has the potential to befriend any other human, unless we are considering mental disability as well. So why would it be impossible in this particular case and how does that work?

Actually, even if you clarify this I guess I fail to understand the question. When one person tells the other she or he wants to be 'just friends' does this actually mean what it says? Or is it a soft rejection? Isn't it quite significant to be friends? If you look around you people go through more partners than friends. What does that mean? And most people that stop being partners also stop being friends.

You generally hear people claim females need a 'click' when trying to find a partner. This means that perfectly acceptable males that for some reason don't 'click' end up being 'just friends'?

Another thing that amazes me is that people don't need to become friends first before they become partners. No, people seem to emerge themselves into the romantic illusion when they meet someone new that invokes intense feelings. How can you think you love something when you have only met that person weeks or days before? Are there people consciously fooling themselves? Can they 'suspend reason'? I don't understand.

[mephisto]

It depends.

If the friendship is in addition to a fulfilment of the (I am assuming sexual) attraction, then yes. (I would imagine that in most successful marriages/long term couplings friendship is a very important component).

However, if the attraction is not fulfilled / satisfied (usually because one of the parties is not interested - if they both are the attraction will be fulfilled and we are back on the case above), then no, because true friendship cannot flourish in the presence of the resulting deep feelings of frustration, resentment and repression of feelings. If one of the persons is blissfully unaware of it, this lack of awareness will in time be interpreted (correctly) as lack of appreciation/consideration. Soon the attracted person will become a "confident" and experience all sorts of intense sufferings. I cannot imagine anything less condicive to true freindship. If the feelings (again not mutual) do surface, then intense embarrassment will again prevent any true firendship. So, no, it is not possible.

Ted and Mephisto are either talking about the first case (fulfilled attraction), or they are wishful thinkers in deep denial (or still hoping)

(And Arbisley is just too young to know better)

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

I think you may have missunderstood the question(or maybe I did ).

I am a boy, and I am not ghey. Therefor I understood the question as asking if I could be a friend with a girl, and nothing else. I answered yes becuase I have many friends who are girls.

I guess I missunderstood the question.

[arbisley]

Ted and Mephisto are either talking about the first case (fulfilled attraction), or they are wishful thinkers in deep denial (or still hoping)

(And Arbisley is just too young to know better)

Actually, now you've said your dash, I completely agree, because I was just sending a short reply and didn't really think about it. I've experienced both of the cases in fact, with the same girl.

My brother positively adored her and they got on really well together, but when he asked her out, well, she just couldn't understand.

I didn't really know her that well, but by the end of the year we ended up good friends. At a barbecue at the end of the year however, we were relatively intoxicated, and we got to saying extremely deep personal things to each other. I thought we'd be just really good friends, but it did end up in kissing. However, I won't se her any more, and we will remain good friends, although the attraction at one point went further than that.

In the end, I'm still inexperienced!

[prometheus]

Bernards point is that sexual attraction will play a disruptive role in the friendship between a male and a female, if they are both hetrosexual.

But sexuality also plays a role between two straight males; they have to compete against each other. So the only pure friendship can exist between a homosexual male and female. Their neither compete against nor chase each other.

[arbisley]

I see, but then, surely you don't HAVE to compete against one another? although it can destroy relationships. It didn't destroy mine with my brother...

[prometheus]

But you share half your genes with your brother.

Genes compete, people just carry them.

[bernhard]

Bernards point is that sexual attraction will play a disruptive role in the friendship between a male and a female, if they are both hetrosexual.

But sexuality also plays a role between two straight males; they have to compete against each other. So the only pure friendship can exist between a homosexual male and female. Their neither compete against nor chase each other.

No, that is not my point.

My point is that "pure" friendship cannot exist with sexual attraction (by the definition of the word pure).

Even in the case of a male homossexual and a female, the female may still have an attraction for the homosexual male (in fact  many women have this particular fetish: they  get a high from the hope of "reforming" the homossexual  guy - and some macho men have the same fetish in relation to lesbian women).

Sexual attraction has been extensively researched from a biochemical point of view in recent years, and it seems that  "chemistry" between people is far less of a metaphor than it was previously believed. So "pure" friendship is probably only possible  betwen people (of watever gender) who experience no "chemistry"  whatsoever towards each other.

The problem at the root here - it seems to me - is unfulfilled, unrecquited attraction. This will be the true friendship killer.

If there is no attraction, or if the attraction is fulfilled on both sides, then friendship may follow. (Or the reverse: Attraction may follow friendship - ad Monica and Chandler demonstrated)

Of course it is perfectly possible to be deeply attracted (sexually) to someone and have no interest whatsoever in friendship. Usually when (and if) these relationships come to an end you never want to see the person ever again.

But even if a deep non-sexual relationship develops between two people who once were sexually engaged, once the sexaul relationship stops, the non-sexual relationship will suffer, and things will not be what they once were.  But this is sort of obvious, is it not?

Arbisley & Zheer: I was pulling your legs. 

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[prometheus]

I said a homosexual male and female. Not a homosexual male and a hetrosexual female.


I don't really understand the difference between a 'pure friendship', no idea what that means, being impossible because of the definition of pure, and sexual attraction disrupting friendship between two people.

Do you mean 'friendship+' isn't a 'pure friendship'? Or do you mean that friendship and sexual attraction are mutually exclusive? Or many with the exception where both are committed to it?


Unfulfilled attraction. Unfulfilled desire. I thought buddhism had a solution for this?

[bernhard]

I said a homosexual male and female. Not a homosexual male and a hetrosexual female.

Sorry, I misunderstood you. But even then, a homosexual male and a homossexual female can almost make an heterossxual couple 

I don't really understand the difference between a 'pure friendship', no idea what that means, being impossible because of the definition of pure, and sexual attraction disrupting friendship between two people.

Do you mean 'friendship+' isn't a 'pure friendship'? Or do you mean that friendship and sexual attraction are mutually exclusive? Or many with the exception where both are committed to it?

I guess we will have to discuss the concept of friendship and what it actually involves, which I am sure may be different for different people. And of course there are different levels of friendship from  mild acquaintance to deep intimacy (but not physical).

But to avoid writing a treatise at this point I would say that both romantic (in the troubador sense, that is chaste) love and sexual attraction will wreck friendships unless there is life commitment on both sides. If there is commitment on both sides , then friendship will survive (at least as long the commitment),

If Seinfeld could not get away with it, no one can

Unfulfilled attraction. Unfulfilled desire. I thought buddhism had a solution for this?

True, but most people are not attracted to that particular solution (and as far as solutions go it is a bit like Alexander cutting the Gordian knot)

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[prometheus]

I do know the solution of Alexander

[pianistimo]

bernhard and prometheus are very funny.  seinfeld and alexander.

well, here's the dilemma for me.  i go in to the piano lesson thinking only of music and come out smiling half the day just from looking at my piano teacher.  then, i think - i must quit lessons. (which i had to do anyway with a broken leg).  the thing is - once you meet a musician who can do everything and looks good too - you are constantly slapping yourself and trying get out of that 'dismal' situation we call infatuation.

it's much different once you get married.  it's much better actually.  you really know the person and it's not a fantasy (but it still can be) - and you know they accept you for who you really are.  my husband's love is the kind of love that can go on forever with me.  he's seen me at my worst and still loves me.  and, he keeps confidences.  not that my teacher wouldn't - but that is infatuation on one side probably (my side).  how can you create a relationship by forcing someone to love you if they are stretching their hands out to measure a comfortable distance (arms length reach).

so - you have to do this little thing with your mind.  i am a professional i am a professional (*cracks and breaks down).  i mean - you don't want your studio turning into some sort of laughing stock - and women or men coming out half dressed.  it is a brilliance of the mind that knows how to treat people as people and not things or toys of manipulation.  that is the secret of piano teachers.  that is probably their attraction as well.  they are 'safe.'  but how safe?  how safe is your piano teacher?  i know mine is very safe - but i want to write a novel to warn people of the occasional piano teacher that cuts up students in the downstairs basement.  (my mind is off today).

[pianistimo]

i am putting off doing housework today.  looking at piles of laundry and a closet that was restructured and have to stuff things back in.  it is not motiviating.

i am going through a list of about 20 people i had to give the 'friends' speech to.  one was way back when i was 16 or 17 and the guy broke down in the rain and started crying.  i couldn't believe it.  i was flustered by it - so i went with him somewhere and tried to soften the blow - but the more i talked the worse it got.

then, there was this one guy that kept following me around or showing up at my HOUSE unexpectedly.  this was not the classical guitarist.  this was a creep, i say.  finally after enough 'knocks' he would see me coming and back up.

now, the classical guitarist - i never gave him the friends speech - but he was much like my piano teacher and very careful and ordered with his words so i never got the impression we were anything but friends.  the only time i pushed it was when i tried to reach into his shirt pocket to retrieve something - but i was in the car and it was over the glass windshield.  he must have thought i was trying to rip his shirt off.

now that i think about it - he gave me the friends speech in college.  it was short and sweet.  'i can't marry you.'  he gave no reasons.  his friend accomapnied me outside and i screamed the the loudest scream i ever did in my life.  then, instantly i felt better.  after that we were still pretty good friends.  but, when he asked me two years later if i wanted to look at houses - i gave a sort of shrug.  it was around then that i was writing my husband.  i saw this guy at some function later after i married and he asked 'i didn't really mean anything to you , did i?'  i was so stunned by that comment.  why don't guys say what they mean .  i mean - if i meant something - why did he say several years before 'i can't marry you.'  what did he want.  a casual affair - the nerd.

[pianistimo]

i take it back.  he wasnt' a nerd.  and, he probably was better off marrying someone else.  i mean the guy was too hot for me.  you know, spanish looking, dark eyes, tall, but too hairy (i saw him once on the squash court).  my husband is hot too - but one experience with this guy and i think i wouldn't have survived.  died right on the bed.  too much electricity.  now, this is not to say that my hsuband isn't hot.  we just 'click.'  we're neither to hot or cold for each other and we are from sort of similar upbringings and culture.  i think if i was expected to cook all afternoon - as with the spanish culture - it would kill me also.

[m1469]

I guess I missunderstood the question.

No, you did not misunderstand.

[arbisley]

well, here's the dilemma for me. i go in to the piano lesson thinking only of music and come out smiling half the day just from looking at my piano teacher. then, i think - i must quit lessons. (which i had to do anyway with a broken leg). the thing is - once you meet a musician who can do everything and looks good too - you are constantly slapping yourself and trying get out of that 'dismal' situation we call infatuation.

Well I have a certain experience similar to that.
My singing teacher at school is obviously gay and has a partner.  The thing is, in class he always has that bit of a funny tinkle in his eye, but I know it's nothing serious, just amusing. He is quite poncy in a kind of way, but then so extremely nice, he wouldn't be the kind of person to try it out on you...

[arbisley]

Arbisley & Zheer: I was pulling your legs. 

Don't you believe it! That was the first time I'd kissed someone, and it was two months ago.
Nothing new since...

[pianistimo]

it's all in the personality of the guy.  was talking to a person at the pool where we go swim.  he said his son will probably never meet a girl because he would never make the first move.  (i don't know why he said this -because his son was only six years old)  i told him the same for my son.  he's not asked a girl out and he's 17.  he's happy playing computer games and tells me that girls get in the way and are bothersome.  he calls his little sister a 'bugger.'  but, they are great friends. 

i'm proud of him, too, though - because maybe he'll go to college first and then have a girlfriend.  to me, it's a good idea.  i always think as a parent it is best to act non-chalant.  i mean - if he started bringing over a girl who was always wearing black and had tatoos and stuff - i might start talking. 

when he was 10 he said he wanted a girlfriend that looked like pamela anderson.  i thought that was way premature.  then, he said - he was going to have a lot of girlfriends at once.  (i tried to act non-chalant)  now, he says - 'is thirty too old to marry?'  i liked that question.  i just want to see him get past 20. 

in seventh grade i was really worried about him though.  i said 'so...any girls chasing you yet?'  he said - they're all ugly.  only my english teacher is good looking (or something like that).  i was taken aback - and had to keep my mouth shut.

[le_poete_mourant]

Don't you believe it! That was the first time I'd kissed someone, and it was two months ago.
Nothing new since...

sigh...
"You must remember this/ a kiss is just a kiss"

I have a general rule of conduct, which is that close friends are off-limit.  This came about after I tried to date one of my best friends.  Well, that worked for a couple months just fine, except then she went on a school trip to Spain & France, and hooked up with a  guy who I thought was my friend.  (Therefore, competition can destroy other relationships.)  As you can imagine, that made for quite a nasty break-up, and quite honestly, I do sort of wish I had not entered into this relationship because at least I would still have the strong friendship we had in the beginning.  Last time we had a real conversation, it degenerated into screaming profanity. 

Therefore, my current girlfriend was not a close friend of mine when we began dating; I judge this not just by intimacy and significance of conversation and trust level, but by the length of a friendship, which is why I say she was not a close friend of mine.  I did not begin dating her until I was sure I "knew" her well.  That is, I was certain that we could get along, we had lots in common, and we could communicate.   

Now, a close female friend of mine, I am not strongly attracted to.  However, I think it is fair to say that most women have some attractive features.  Ok... maybe... at least one.  But that's not the point.  I push aside my thoughts of her attraction because I value the friendship more and I have learned my lesson.  (And because I'm currently busy.) 

Well, now I think my ex is a complete and utter b!t(h, which is unfortunate because I used to think she was a lovely person, even when we were just friends.  Ah well. 

in seventh grade i was really worried about him though.

It's natural in seventh grade to be mortified of girls for some boys.  I was like that too.  Now I'm a man-ho.     Well, not really.  But I mean, often it's better to wait until you're older.  9th grade is a good time for dating.  You know a bit more about girls, you're a bit more developed, and you can make better decisions about someone's character. 

And... sometimes it's embarassing for us to tell our mothers about girls.  Uncles are better for that kind of thing, I find.  But mothers and fathers, it gets embarassing.  I mean, these are the people who used to change your diapers, for goff's sake. 

[pianistimo]

good point.

i'm kinda hoping for the old fashioned back yard wedding and that i'll get along with the in-laws and be a helpful grandma and not one that's pushed into the back seat with a command to shut up.   

i want to be able to talk to the girl.  that she has a brain.  that she will understand why my son is so messed up.  (just kidding) actually, i think he's cool.  it's just that i can't get him to like housework yet - but it is actually a very good feature in a man.

[le_poete_mourant]

Listen, if a man can cook, clean, garden, and fix things, he's set for LIFE.  Not only will the girl love him, the girl's mother will love him... particularly because her own husband probably is only good for fixing things.  That's the real benefit of being a "nice guy" as opposed to a "tough guy"; maybe the tough guys appeal to the loose girls, but the nice guy is going to get points with the parents, and that's very very important.  Moreso for a guy than for a girl, because when you have a daughter, there's a greater protective urge; daughters are (generally) viewed as more virtuous and parents will sometimes get upset if you "violate" their daughter. 

[zheer]

Listen, if a man can cook, clean, garden, and fix things, he's set for LIFE. 

  Yes and no, having truck loads of money , having basic DIY skills , and being in good health will set you for life.PPPPPPPPPPffffffffftttttt  , i think things are a little more complex than being able to cook,clean and garden, anyway i know fully well that some women will go crazy if they see their other half doing house work, you know role play. ( might be wrong)

[pianistimo]

i would only be bothered if he cleaned better than me.  i already know he cooks better.  it didn't bother me in the least.  especially on the weekends.  he'll cook breakfast and i love it.  but, the mess afterwards!  you'd think a bomb went off in the kitchen.  theres stuff spattered on the walls and the floor - and the pan that the eggs and onions were fried in - is stuck like soemthing else.  i've learned how to appreciate the good and just clean up afterwards.  i look at my son - and then look at the dishes - but he never gets the hint.  i usually clean everything. 

although - lately, he's been cleaning out the car really well and polishing the wheels.  that's almost enough.  it's nice to get into a clean car.  i'd say half the romance for women is a clean smelling, clean-cut guy that will at least say 'hello' to the mother.

now, about the second half of that response - i was wondering about the virtuous part.  i think guys and girls should be treated equally on that one.  if the girl isn't virtuous - whose fault might that be??  hmm.  maybe the guy she's dating?  anwya, i dont' worry about m y daughter just yet.  i said 'you want jewelry' ?  i'll get you some every year (but i get some during the year too)  never rely on guys to give you 'icies' as the song says.  also, if she wants to go to the movies or buy stuff - she goes straight to her dad.  so --now a guy is going to have to treat her as good as her dad or she'll probably not look at him.  i hope she stays virtuous.  there's not that many around because the system isn't set up to reward virtuous women.  noone congratulates virgins (except at a wedding).

[le_poete_mourant]

now, about the second half of that response - i was wondering about the virtuous part.  i think guys and girls should be treated equally on that one.  [...] i hope she stays virtuous.  there's not that many around because the system isn't set up to reward virtuous women.  noone congratulates virgins (except at a wedding).

I agree... but I think that for a young woman, our culture views it as a "loss of innocence" whereas for a young man it is "becoming a man."  The parents of the lady in question might be a little offended, shocked, upset... whereas the parents of the guy may just say, "hey, it's your ***, stick it where you want."  (Not the most delicate of sentiments, but...) 

[pianistimo]

i never told that to my son.  never really worried that much (yet) though.  society might say one thing - but if a guy has sisters and they realize it could be their own sister - it's kinda better, i think.  i really believe that there's an advantage to larger families, too, because they see how much work the youngest is (changing diapers, etc) and realize it's not like you can just party and never worry about the consequences. 

i don't mind him drinking a few beers, driving, taking a girl out, etc. - but i'm hoping he'll drink responsibly and not drive, or designate a driver, and bring the girl back when her curfew is in one piece.  i think that it shows consideration for her safety.  most girls die after midnight - as i see it.  i mean you read the papers - 2 am drinking, partying.  that's what kills girls and they don't even realize it.  they're too young.  either by driving while drinking or otherwise.  and, girls should hang out with groups - i think.  that girl that got killed in nyc a few months back came out of the bar alone.

nowdays we have cell phones, too, which is really nice.  they can call and say where they are.  and, if they need help.  i think the speed dial is something that should be preprogrammed.

[ted]

All this is far too complicated for me. I can't speak for you people, but I repeat that I am quite able to have a friendship and no more with a woman to whom I am physically attracted. It is neither a question of misunderstanding nor one of denial. I know because I have actually done it several times. It's rather like refusing to scratch a flea bite. After a while it doesn't itch at all. If you start scratching it it gets bothersome.

[pianistimo]

that's funny.  girls=flea bites.  have to use that one on my son for now.

[rc]

I'll just chip in that I've never been able to maintain a friendship with a girl I'm attracted to for very long before I start misinterpreting things and 'getting ideas in my head'...  Can only maintain control for so long before I have to get the hell out, or say something stupid.  Maybe easier to do when you're already in a relationship and have that foundation?

Rejection is no big deal, I don't even mind losing friendship, most relationships are repairable with time and there's such an abundance of cool people to befriend...  The real danger is becoming angry and bitter from it.

[thalbergmad]

I'll just chip in that I've never been able to maintain a friendship with a girl I'm attracted to for very long before I start misinterpreting things and 'getting ideas in my head'

It might not be you that is misinterpreting things. Many women are a tease.

I have been led up the garden path and dumped at the gate many times.

Thal

[pianistimo]

maybe that's because you let the woman do the leading.  this time - take charge.  tell her it's your way or the highway.  when women find out they can't pull one over on you - they will probably either stay or leave.  my husband can now get away with practically anything.  he's well built - like you - and he knows that i love him for his body.  well, his mind, too.  he's got a good one. 

seriously,  you can't just let women tease you mercilessly. 

[m1469]

i want to write a novel to warn people of the occasional piano teacher that cuts up students in the downstairs basement.  (my mind is off today).

There is also the occasional student who stabs their piano teacher to death in the teacher's own living room.

[m1469]

All this is far too complicated for me. I can't speak for you people, but I repeat that I am quite able to have a friendship and no more with a woman to whom I am physically attracted. It is neither a question of misunderstanding nor one of denial. I know because I have actually done it several times. It's rather like refusing to scratch a flea bite. After a while it doesn't itch at all. If you start scratching it it gets bothersome.

I agree.  But I wonder, how longterm are these types of friendships ?

[le_poete_mourant]

There is also the occasional student who stabs their piano teacher to death in the teacher's own living room.

But let's be fair.  Those are the teachers who make their students play Hanon.  They get what's coming to them.

 

i don't mind him drinking a few beers, driving, taking a girl out, etc. - but i'm hoping he'll drink responsibly and not drive, or designate a driver, and bring the girl back when her curfew is in one piece.

Don't show him any Mel Gibson movies then. 

[pianistimo]

ouch.  i used to sort of 'idolize' mel gibson.  but, you don't have to go to the movies - he drinks in real life.  poor guy.  i mean he has the perfect life and family.  guess the stress of having too much money is as much as not having any at all.

personally, i kinda like his movies.  now, which movie were you referring to? 

[prometheus]

Someone started talking about characteristics of perfect partners.

I wanted to say something about that because from some point of view the Netherlands has the 'best males' and the 'worst females'.

In our culture it is very normal for males to clean the kitchen, to take care of the children, those kinds of things. The other side of the coin is that the females here are used to this. They have really strong personalities, they are 'bossy', they wear the 'pants' too often, they are not submissive at all.

Of course all this is stereotype but in most parts of the world, South-America, Africa, Near-East, far east, males are much more macho and females are much more submissive.

There is this stereotype that American, or rather lets just take Californian, girls are too spoiled and that they have too high demands. But this is still different from my point about the properties of dutch females.

Actually, I am confronted by these things when foreigners living in the Netherlands describe this to me. So my conclusion was that we have the best males and the worst females. If this is true then I find this rather strange. Does that mean that once the quality of males goes up that of females goes down? What is the mechanism?

Do notice though that males here have no feel for romantism at all.


In the end, things in the field of sociology are always more complex than amino acid folding, so we know nothing.

[pianistimo]

i think the problem is blondness.  blond girls are spoiled no matter if they come from the netherlands or caliifornia.  if you look good - you maximize it to the utmost.  why do you think pamela anderson hasn't worked a day in her life (oops - i take that back - she's a model). 

ps i think there is such a thing as finding the right 'match' or 'click' as someone put it.  some guys hate really 'submissive' type of women...and some act that way but are secretly dominant.  then there's some guys that love the dominance and actually go around looking for **.  they feel better that way.  take thal for instance.  could you see him with a really submissive girl.  she'd be dead in a matter of seconds. 

personally, i think the best model is the one from the garden of eden.  a sort of mutual friendship with the guy ultimately taking responsiblity for anything that goes wrong.  of course, he blames it on her - but it takes a load off of a woman to say 'it's all his fault.  he made me do it.'  of course, men look at it differently.  they think women are sneaky and all that.  actually, they might be right.  but, it's very transparent after two years of marriage.  if your wife is saying one thing and means another - you read it after a while. 

[prometheus]

Eve? But she is my mother? Futermore, she seduced Adam into obeying Lucifer.

Didn't I make it clear that I wasn't talking about 'spoiled' in the sense of the Carlifornian steotype? (blonde or not)

[bernhard]

Actually, I am confronted by these things when foreigners living in the Netherlands describe this to me. So my conclusion was that we have the best males and the worst females. If this is true then I find this rather strange. Does that mean that once the quality of males goes up that of females goes down? What is the mechanism?

There are several studies on the pecking order of chickens. In large commercial chickenhouses geared towards egg production, cockerels are not allowed (since you do not want inseminated eggs). Soon some chickens will start behaving like cockerels towards other chickens, and soon one of them will become the "cockerel" for that particular group. The transformation is not only behavioural but also involves te acquisition of secondary sexual characteristics like bigger size, development of a cockscomb and differntail plummage, to the extent that an observer would take the "chicken" to be a cockerel (it will also mount other chickens).

So basically this is what happens when a true cockerel is absent.

Therefore, given your statement that Dutch men are basically whimps, the ladies moved on to fulfill the gap.

BW
B.