Plural Grammar

[ramseytheii]

When referring to two different people named St Francis, does one properly say, "Saints Francis," or "Saint Francises".
(Ie, "Liszt wrote two Legends about two different [Saints Francis]/[St. Francises]")

Walter Ramsey

[pianistimo]

'saints francis'  i thought.

determiners are not used with titles, right?  you wouldn't say THE doctor or THE saints.

how about 'saints francis (roman numeral) and (roman numeral)'   or did they not have an assigned number?

unfortunately liszt got confused over the names himself and accidentally called peter francis of assisi.  he ended up walking on the water too, i guess.  also, st. francis of assisi tried to resemble Christ by telling people he was born in a stable.  liszt ran with the idea and probably was using two francis's (his split personality) - the one that stood for Christ walking on the water and peter his disciple  and liszt himself and his prodigious students.  he always had some sort of grandiousity to his ideas.  seriously he was delusional over the franciscan order, too. 

[ramseytheii]

'saints francis'  i thought.

determiners are not used with titles, right?  you wouldn't say THE doctor or THE saints.

how about 'saints francis (roman numeral) and (roman numeral)'   or did they not have an assigned number?

unfortunately liszt got confused over the names himself and accidentally called peter francis of assisi.  he ended up walking on the water too, i guess.  also, st. francis of assisi tried to resemble Christ by telling people he was born in a stable.  liszt ran with the idea and probably was using two francis's (his split personality) - the one that stood for Christ walking on the water and peter his disciple  and liszt himself and his prodigious students.  he always had some sort of grandiousity to his ideas.  seriously he was delusional over the franciscan order, too. 

I don't understand your post.  Who is Peter in this context?  Francis of Assisi was indeed the Saint who preached to the animals.  Francis of Paolo also walked on waters, yes Christ did it too, but this Saint wasn't representing him, he was just doing his own thing, as far as I know.

Walter Ramsey

[pianistimo]

it's all very mysterious to me.  thanks for not getting too irate.  i mean, in every religion there's some kind of humor.

[dorfmouse]

 "Liszt wrote two Legends about two different St. Francises"

This version sounds right to me, but I have problems working out why … I think it’s because here the word “Saint” is functioning as part of a whole name, not as a separate noun.
For example one would not say “I wrote a story about the two Freds Smith,” or “X wrote a biography about the two Queens Elizabeth.”
But when it’s a compound word, like “mother-in-law”,  or “court-martial” then the main word becomes plural. “Liszt wrote two legends about two different mothers-in-law.”  "The two soldiers faced seperate courts-martial."
Well, that’s my theory!

[ramseytheii]

it's all very mysterious to me.  thanks for not getting too irate.  i mean, in every religion there's some kind of humor.

Now I really don't get it!

Walter Ramsey

[pianistimo]

but...we wouldn't say 'two different fred smithes?'  i'm confused, too.  a little. i think if they had numbers they should be assigned.  saints I and II.  but, don't take my word for it.  my daugher corrects my english and she's only going into 7th grade.  she's always been able to comprehend all the rules and put them to practice.  (dorfmouse is probably correct).

[bench warmer]

Make it simple by  using an analog to something you know. Suppose there are 2 MD's named Smith  that needed need to be paged in a hospital.  The person would say "Doctors Smith" So you would say Saints Francis.

But you don't need any of that. Francesco d'Assisi was nicknamed Franco and Francesco di Paolo was nicknamed Cheech. 

[pianorama]

I think it would be the 2 St. Francises, but if you had say St. George and St. Peter you would say: blah wrote blah blah blah about Saints George and Peter.
I think. Maybe. Hmmmmm......
 What does it really matter anyways?

[crazy for ivan moravec]

"Saint Francis" is a compound noun, meaning, 'saint' becomes part of the name.

therefore, if we're referring to two different persons, we can either use "Saints Francis" or "Saint Francises", but never both in plural form.

------------------------------------------

In analogy, if we have Fr. Clement Distura and Fr. Clement Fungot:

"Frs. Clement" OR "Fr. Clements" is correct.
Of course, we would normally say, "Frs. Distura and Fungot" because this is clearer. But in the case of "St. Francis" where the modifier "saint" becomes an integral part of the name, only one is pluralized in form.

[pianistimo]

take it from a catholic, ramseythei.  my husband's family is russian orthodox - and they're all perfect grammarians.  church related.  maybe they had to help write up the monthly newsletters?  as for me, noone really bothered telling me all the in's and out's.  i got along fine until grad school.  whew.  that was a headache.  i would read the 'rules' that the teacher set forth in writing essays and term papers and think - if i remember all this it will be a miracle.  i had to write my paper three or four times and it still had a few flaws - but i never realized i had it in me to write half decently.

most things make perfect sense after you practice them for awhile.  for instance, i remember he said - the first time you introduce a person, you use the entire name.  mr. saint francis.  (just kidding) also, you make sure to tell everything about their background at the time of introduction.  after that, it's just first name basis.  of course, with a saint - you might get things all confused using a first name with a title.  saints francis - sounds better than getting a first name confused with the last.  saints are confusing anyway.  so many DO have similar names.  maybe mentioning when they lived?

i hope i have the title saint someday.  what do you have to do to be an official 'saint?'  walk on water?  i've done that in the bathtub.  but, noone saw me.  it was actually a freak accident when the curling iron fell in.  just kidding again.  sorry.

[ahinton]

OK, so try this one, then. What do you suppose would be the correct plural first person to use when writing or speaking of the Canadian musicologist Marc-André Roberge and his friend, colleague and compatriot the pianist Marc-André Hamelin - "Marc-Andrés" or "Marcs-André"?

Best,

Alistair

[pianistimo]

making things difficult again.  the two marc's andre?  after both are introduced formally with first and last names?  i don't know.   

[ramseytheii]

OK, so try this one, then. What do you suppose would be the correct plural first person to use when writing or speaking of the Canadian musicologist Marc-André Roberge and his friend, colleague and compatriot the pianist Marc-André Hamelin - "Marc-Andrés" or "Marcs-André"?

Best,

Alistair

\
Hahaha, good one!
I definitely vote for Marcs-Andre.

Walter Ramsey

[steve_m]

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