Christianity - Plague of the MIND

[prometheus]

Some versions of God's law say that we should stone people to death.

Capital punishment violates international human rights.

[ramseytheii]

Are the Law of God and the laws of nations diametrically opposed?  Wouldn't a perfect government protect God's law?  It is not an exaggeration to say that with the legalization of pornography, contraception, abortion, and gay marriage in one state, the government of the United States is unquestionably flouting God's law.

Well, these perfect governments perhaps exist somewhere even now, for instance in Iran, where the government is recently forcing all secular professors out of the universities on the basis that their teachings oppose the word of the Lord.  When they followed the law of God 15 or so years ago, and declared fatwa on Salman Rushdie, surely this is another illustration of the perfection of that government. 

My confident and probably arrogant presumption that you will disagree further illustrates my point, that in Amerika, when people refer to any sort of religion in poltiics, they are really only referring to one kind, whether they know it or not.

Anyways, what is a law in context of the Gospels?  Jesus told his followers to pay taxes: he didn't say that was a law to be enshrined in all of Christendom, he said pay your taxes because the money belongs to the government, and not you.  He also said to abandon all posessions and pretense of the previous life (before receiving the Spirit).  So in this sense I think Christianity and government are indeed diametrically opposed, since there would be no need for government if people didn't claim ownership to property and money. 

It says very clearly in the Scriptures that Christians have to bear the cross on their backs, in other words, suffer through persecution and hardship.  As soon as a government is organized, with an army, and a rule of law imposd over all the people in the land, to fight persecution through these typical wordly means, the cross is thrown off the back and onto the ground in contempt. 

Walter Ramsey

[maul]

Dinosaur fossils were put here to test our faith. If you believe that there were dinosaurs then you are going to hell.

[johnny-boy]

Dinosaur fossils were put here to test our faith. If you believe that there were dinosaurs then you are going to hell.

Huh?

[maul]

Yep, that god is a real prankster by golly. Better start believin.

[prometheus]

Ive seen people claim that.

[johnny-boy]

If I recollect correctly, I believe there was mention of "giants" in the Bible prior to “The Flood".

John

[prometheus]

You mean nephilim. They are fallen angel/human-hybrids. A way for Lucifer to destroy gods creation because the fallan angel blood would make humans evil.

At least I think that is a basic interpretation. There has never been a real giant skeleton found.

We may actually even find them. We already found the opposite.

[johnny-boy]

You mean nephilim. They are fallen angel/human-hybrids. A way for Lucifer to destroy gods creation because the fallan angel blood would make humans evil.

At least I think that is a basic interpretation. There has never been a real giant skeleton found.

We may actually even find them. We already found the opposite.

I'd say the remains of dinosaurs are proof of the existence of giants. 

John

[prometheus]

But dinosaurs aren't even humanoid. Sure, if you find a fossil you may not realise.

[pianistimo]

wow.  so much happened since i was gone. 

ramseytheii, i think, is quite correct in his assessment that the government of God is different than the government of man.  although Christ said to 'pay to cesar what is owed cesar and to God what is owed God.'  i take that to mean that if you don't have a lot of money - God looks on your heart.  donations can take many forms.  sometimes they are donations of time.  i've calulated time, gas, money and feel that because of the way society is set up - we have to calculate things to make them come out right - to be able to pay bills and pay what is due society AND pay God.  10% can be a calculation not just of your physical money - but your physical energy as well.  he says that we rob Him in tithes when we do not consider others - but paying only to a church can be a flaw, imo.  you can help the poor, help a widow, buy a gift for a child (birthday or whatever), help a school with donations - imo, this is charity.  also, veterans, various other charities - they all are donating time and money to a cause that is beyond our own. 

i tend to think community work is a part of the gospel.  whatever your community is lacking - you can add to it. even something as small as books to the library, or flowers to a common area, or a mowing, or painting something to look better.  this is a donation, also.  God says we should do everything to His glory - so it all goes back to Him anyway!

[johnny-boy]

But dinosaurs aren't even humanoid. Sure, if you find a fossil you may not realise.

I wasn't speaking of humans, just creatures that would be classified as giants. My point was in reference to Memminger's statement: "If you believe that there were dinosaurs then you are going to hell".

Why would the Bible state the existence of such giants, and then send you to hell for believing it?

John

[prometheus]

But a giant isn't a creature of giant size but a very large humanoid.

[johnny-boy]

But a giant isn't a creature of giant size but a very large humanoid.

I believe the Bible was referring to a time when everything was in giant proportion, i.e., animals and vegetation.  I'll leave the interpretation of Biblical giants up to the Biblical experts. I just remember a minister once talking about there being a time of giants on Earth (when everything was of gigantic proportion).

I guess I could Google.

John

[prometheus]

The fallen angels also copulated with trees and butterflies? I don't remember that passage.

[thalbergmad]

The fallen angels also copulated with trees

I don't beleaf it.

[ramseytheii]

wow.  so much happened since i was gone. 

ramseytheii, i think, is quite correct in his assessment that the government of God is different than the government of man.  although Christ said to 'pay to cesar what is owed cesar and to God what is owed God.'  i take that to mean that if you don't have a lot of money - God looks on your heart.  donations can take many forms.  sometimes they are donations of time.  i've calulated time, gas, money and feel that because of the way society is set up - we have to calculate things to make them come out right - to be able to pay bills and pay what is due society AND pay God.  10% can be a calculation not just of your physical money - but your physical energy as well.

I read this passage differently actually: since the money they are asking about belongs the Caesar, then something else belongs to God - allegiance.  Didn't Jesus say, never take an oath?  The Pledge of Allegiance, for isntance, or whatever Canadians say to the Queen, is exactly what he is referring to.  The spirit and its morals belong to God, and the material posessions belong to the government.

This passage to me is true in both the sacred and secular sense.  The government manufactures money, and hands it out, then asks for it back.  Along the way we trade with ourselves.  But ultimately the money belongs to the institution that made it.  You hear the argument sometimes that it is immoral to pay taxes that will go to support a war, or to support an abortion clinic, or to support the death penalty, but actually that is off-base.   You don't support your parents by giving back your allowance.

Walter Ramsey

[pianistimo]

walter ramsey, you are way ahead of me.  please forgive me for teasing you mercililessly about your faith.  i see you have it.  of course, you tease me, too.  so we're even.  in any case...agreed.

the thing is - we are born into a country.  so, if you do not decide that killing for your country is an option - you can pledge allegiance to it by giving to it.  taxes, time, vote, whatever - but as you say - it is only a temporary government and not perfect.  when a perfect government exists - we will know it.

[ahinton]

"Render unto Thalbergmad the things that are Thalbergmad's - and render unto Pianistimo the things that are Pianistimo's"; on the basis of recent posts, that would arguably appear to leave the former with unlimited access to British massage parlours and the like and the latter with similarly unlimited access to the dedicatee of Bruckner's Ninth Symphony.

"Vive la difference"? - or "it takes all sorts to screw up a world"?

Answers (if any) in another thread, s'il vous plaît...

Best,

Alistair

[pianistimo]

wait...the order of the second two makes it appear that i'm screwing up the world.  that is only thal's dream.  mine is much more sensible. 

[lostinidlewonder]

I hope I wont open a can of worms now but i think it will be inevitable.

The Catholic Church cannot be considered christian because of several things. Firstly confession breaks the relationship between yourself and God, forcing that you cleanse yourself from your sins by telling another human (a father, which calling him father is agains a slap in Gods face because god said very clearly, I am the only Father.  All humans are equal, would a sheep call another sheep a shepard?) who acts as an intermediary between yourself and God.

Secondly idol worship and ancestor worship which is strictly forbidden in Christanity runs rampant in all Catholic churches. Many catholics have St whoever pendants around their necks, they kneel before statues of the virgin mary and light candles, they pray to other saints for guidance and help.

There is this hierachy in the catholic church and God clearly states that we are all equal and none of us are more holy than the other. Yet all catholics look at the pope as a figure of God, they are more excited to see the pope walk past them than to pray to God and feel god who walks past us everywhere and anywhere.

The crusades initiated by the cathlolics has killed more people than all the world wars put together. This makes me think of how the muslim religion was spread, by the sword, conquer these people, take away their religion, give them yours or death. This is all clearly written in history so I am not making this up.

The law in the bible is basically broken in two, the old testament law and the new testament. Christ replaced a lot of  the old laws, especially of sacrifice. In the old law pepole had to sacrifice animals to deal with their sins, now God has given us Christ, a permanent sacrifice, to deal with our sins. So laws change. Same with what you eat, what you put into your body. Christ clearly said it is not as bad what you put into your mouth than what comes out of it. So I am always upset when Jehovas Witnesses say to me they will not accept blood transfusions. They are ignoring Christs teachings.

GOD IS MYSTERIOUS. THE MORE WE TRY TO GUESS WHAT HE IS OR WHAT HE ISN'T THE FURTHER WE GET AWAY FROM HIM. THE MORE FAITH GUIDES US TO ACCEPT GOD THE CLOSER WE COME TO THE TRUTH. BUT NO HUMAN WORDS WILL EVER DESCRIBE GOD. How do you explain love? You cannot, it is a force and you can only explain what it does to you.

[lostinidlewonder]

The thing about dinosaur fossil or whatever else we dig up from the ground they still do not disprove or prove the bible. So what if they find dinosaurs, god perhaps let them exist and then exit this world! The speed that time moves at in Genisis is very difficult to measure. What I mean is that perhaps even a trillion years could pass in the time Genisis talks about. This would allow dinosaur bones and whatever other old animals or plant stuff you want to find in the ground. Just because the bible doesn't mention dinosaurs doesnt mean anything! There are many more things it doesnt mention simply because it has no real importance!

[leahcim]

GOD IS MYSTERIOUS. THE MORE WE TRY TO GUESS WHAT HE IS OR WHAT HE ISN'T THE FURTHER WE GET AWAY FROM HIM.

So is he mysterious or was that just one of these guesses you're SHOUTING about? It seems to me, "mysterious" is a human word you've used to describe God viz "God is mysterious" - so that's bollocks then. I can't help but pity your audience if you talk between playing pieces "Beethoven cannot be described in words, so I'm going to fart pfffft pfffft pffft pfffffft...this next piece Beethoven wrote in 7 days, but depending on the speed of Genesis, that could have been a trillion years. What?"

I prefered the bit about the bible that could send you to hell, higher in the thread What kind of mileage do you think you get from a King James? Vroom, Vroom.

[mike_lang]

The Catholic Church cannot be considered christian because of several things. Firstly confession breaks the relationship between yourself and God, forcing that you cleanse yourself from your sins by telling another human (a father, which calling him father is agains a slap in Gods face because god said very clearly, I am the only Father.  All humans are equal, would a sheep call another sheep a shepard?) who acts as an intermediary between yourself and God.

Penance is a holy sacrament.  When a priest does this, he absolves in the name of Christ.  Part of Catholic doctrine is that the only Priest is Christ, the High Priest.  All of our priests are only priests, insofar as they enter into Christ's priesthood.  The point, of course, is that when one confesses sins in penance, or confession, there is a threefold process by which God absolves sins.  The sacrament was instituted by Christ himself.

Secondly idol worship and ancestor worship which is strictly forbidden in Christanity runs rampant in all Catholic churches. Many catholics have St whoever pendants around their necks, they kneel before statues of the virgin mary and light candles, they pray to other saints for guidance and help.

People often misinterpret prayer to the Virgin Mary and the saints.  It is not that we worship them; it is that we ask them to pray for us.  When someone is titled "Saint", it is because the Church has come to the conclusion after much time and review that this person must be in Heaven.  We know, of course, the same of Mary, who ascended body and soul.  It is logical that someone who is in the Beatific Vision, or is in direct sight of God, would pray more powerfully than us.  Therefore, we ask them to pray for us.  Worship and adoration is reserved for God alone, in the persons of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

There is this hierachy in the catholic church and God clearly states that we are all equal and none of us are more holy than the other. Yet all catholics look at the pope as a figure of God, they are more excited to see the pope walk past them than to pray to God and feel god who walks past us everywhere and anywhere.

The greatest title of the Pope is servant.  There has to be some organization to the Church.  When there is not, we end up with thousands of Protestant denominations.  I'm not sure where you read, however, that no person is more holy than another.  Of couse we are all equal in dignity and created good, but naturally, someone who has a better relationship with Christ through prayer and ministry is going to have more sanctifying grace.

The law in the bible is basically broken in two, the old testament law and the new testament. Christ replaced a lot of  the old laws, especially of sacrifice. In the old law pepole had to sacrifice animals to deal with their sins, now God has given us Christ, a permanent sacrifice, to deal with our sins. So laws change. Same with what you eat, what you put into your body. Christ clearly said it is not as bad what you put into your mouth than what comes out of it.

The bible is not broken into two, nor is the Law.  The two books are one Word of God.  The coming of Christ in the fullness of time replaced the need for material sacrifice, as we now have the eternal Paschal sacrifice Who transcends time and space.  We longer need sacrifice animals, as God has given us his only Son, that so long as we eat His body and drink His blood, we may have eternal life in us.  Some laws change - these are simply traditions.  The Law does not change.

GOD IS MYSTERIOUS. THE MORE WE TRY TO GUESS WHAT HE IS OR WHAT HE ISN'T THE FURTHER WE GET AWAY FROM HIM. THE MORE FAITH GUIDES US TO ACCEPT GOD THE CLOSER WE COME TO THE TRUTH. BUT NO HUMAN WORDS WILL EVER DESCRIBE GOD. How do you explain love? You cannot, it is a force and you can only explain what it does to you.

Of course God is mysterious.  But what light do you glean if you never attempt to understand the Mystery?  We know that the Infinite is by definition beyond the comprehension of the Finite, however, this does not mean that we cannot advance our knowledge.  Faith guides us to accept God?  Faith precedes understanding, that is true.  But faith is a foundation upon which knowledge is built.  If you love someone, don't you want to get to know him or her?  It cannot be any different with God.

Best,
Michael

[lostinidlewonder]

So is he mysterious or was that just one of these guesses you're SHOUTING about? It seems to me, "mysterious" is a human word you've used to describe God viz "God is mysterious" - so that's bollocks then.

I didnt say GOD IS MYSTERIOUS, that is one way GOD describes himself in the bible. Get your facts right.

I can't help but pity your audience if you talk between playing pieces "Beethoven cannot be described in words.....

Again incessant babble. Beethoven and God have nothing in common. And you have no idea how well I talk to an audience, I have them eating out of my hands, mwhah. Not that i have anything to prove to you, so whatever, moving on.

Penance is a holy sacrament.  When a priest does this, he absolves in the name of Christ.  Part of Catholic doctrine is that the only Priest is Christ, the High Priest.  All of our priests are only priests, insofar as they enter into Christ's priesthood.  The point, of course, is that when one confesses sins in penance, or confession, there is a threefold process by which God absolves sins.  The sacrament was instituted by Christ himself.

This is where catholics and christians stand in difference. A priest dealing with sin is NO DIFFERENT to anyone else praying for forgiveness. We are all equal afterall. The catholic church can confuse you by saying it is better because of this and that, but in all essense it takes away the equality of power. Saying priests have more power, more connection with god than any one else, which is just wrong imo.

People often misinterpret prayer to the Virgin Mary and the saints.  It is not that we worship them; it is that we ask them to pray for us.  When someone is titled "Saint", it is because the Church has come to the conclusion after much time and review that this person must be in Heaven.  We know, of course, the same of Mary, who ascended body and soul.  It is logical that someone who is in the Beatific Vision, or is in direct sight of God, would pray more powerfully than us.  Therefore, we ask them to pray for us.  Worship and adoration is reserved for God alone, in the persons of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

This is against christianity, to say that we ask some human who is dead to PRAy for us. What the heck. When the virgin mary died she died, she is in the ground, she was no raised into heaven and is there looking down at us. The ressurection was made clear by christ in the new testament. NO where in the bible does it say mary is in heaven, nor does it give any humans the right to say someone is a saint etc. It is a roman catholic device.

Of couse we are all equal in dignity and created good, but naturally, someone who has a better relationship with Christ through prayer and ministry is going to have more sanctifying grace.

NO NO NO. In my mind this is very very wrong. More sanctifying grace? please. If a prostitute prays for me in all sincerity it is as great as a high priest of whatever praying for me with all sincerity. God looks at us all equally, thus when we pray we pray with faith, faith is given to us by god, we have nothing to boast about, no one is greater than another, we are all brothers and sisters, no human is our spiritual father but God and GOD ONLY!!

The bible is not broken into two, nor is the Law.  The two books are one Word of God.

The old testament, the new testament, two different teachings from one god yes. But they are two laws. THe laws for the new world, that is after christs sacrifice and the laws for the old, before christ. This is clear. God even tell us we will be judged according to differnt laws based on what period we lived. Those that died before christ will be judged with the old law, and those after christ with the new. Study.

Of course God is mysterious.  But what light do you glean if you never attempt to understand the Mystery?

Of course we must strive to undertand I do not go against that. But i say god is mysterious because atheists think he doesnt exist beacuse he cannot be proved or there is no hard evidence etc. anyway....

[mephisto]

"It is odd that the Bible says, 'God created man,' whereas it is the other way round: man has created God" - Bela  Bartok

Enough said.

[prometheus]

I didnt say GOD IS MYSTERIOUS, that is one way GOD describes himself in the bible. Get your facts right.

What a strange comment. And an even stranger ciritisism of his knowledge of the facts. He never said that the bible didn't say what it said and you clearly said what you said.

Your logic would mean that when you say something that is in the bible then you can't say it yourself. And when someone finds it strange she or he doesn't know the facts.

The only reasoning behind this must be that you think everyone needs to know every passage of the bible by heart and that no one is allowed to question any of them. If they do question them it is a sigh that they don't know that it is the bible. If they knew they would never dare to question it.

If a prostitute prays for me in all sincerity...

Why does one want to meet with prostitutes?

No really. You use a prostitute as a paragon of immorality, to contrast with a priest. I find that very bad taste and very immoral. The main reason people are prostitutes is because they don't have a better alternative. Most of them are victims.



Let me just say that I think that you are more impressive than Pianistimo, also based on the discussion I had with you more than two years ago.

[berceuse]

"It is odd that the Bible says, 'God created man,' whereas it is the other way round: man has created God" - Bela  Bartok

Enough said.

You do know Bartok converted to Unitarian right? He attended the Unitarian Church regularly.

"Supreme serenity still remains the Ideal of great Art. The shapes and transitory forms of life are but stages toward this Ideal, which Christ's religion illuminates with His divine light." - Franz Liszt

“The aim and final end of all music should be none other than the glory of God and the refreshment of the soul.” - J.S. Bach

While dying he still called on the names of Jesus, Mary, Joseph, kissed the crucifix and pressed it to his heart with the cry, "Now I am at the source of Blessedness." - Frederic Chopin

"My faith is the grand drama of my life. I'm a believer, so I sing words of God to those who have no faith." - Olivier Messiaen

"It is a great consolation for me to remember that the Lord, to whom I had drawn near in humble and child-like faith, has suffered and died for me, and that He will look on me in love and compassion." - Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart

"When I open my eyes, I can only sigh, for what I see is contrary to my creed: and I must despise the world for not perceiving that music is a higher revelation than any wisdom or philosophy. It is the wine that inspires new creations, and I am the Bacchus, who presses out this wine for men, and makes them spiritually drunk; when they are sober they bring to shore all kinds of things which they have caught. God is nearer to me than to others. I approach him without fear, I have always known him. Neither am I anxious about my music, which no adverse fate can overtake, and which will free him who understands it from the misery which afflicts others." - Ludwig van Beethoven

Enough said (just kidding, lets not start some sort of quote war please)

[prometheus]

Surely almost all qoutes you will find about religion are 'pro-religion'.

You don't see someone say: "All passion and creativity comes from atheism".

[johnny-boy]

Surely almost all qoutes you will find about religion are 'pro-religion'.

You don't see someone say: "All passion and creativity comes from atheism".

Yeah, I wonder why not.

John

[berceuse]

Surely almost all qoutes you will find about religion are 'pro-religion'.

You don't see someone say: "All passion and creativity comes from atheism".

That actually sounds like something Nietzsche would say.

"Nietzsche was stupid and abnormal." -Leo Tolstoy  

Ok I will stop now.

[mephisto]

You do know Bartok converted to Unitarian right? He attended the Unitarian Church regularly.

"Supreme serenity still remains the Ideal of great Art. The shapes and transitory forms of life are but stages toward this Ideal, which Christ's religion illuminates with His divine light." - Franz Liszt

“The aim and final end of all music should be none other than the glory of God and the refreshment of the soul.” - J.S. Bach

While dying he still called on the names of Jesus, Mary, Joseph, kissed the crucifix and pressed it to his heart with the cry, "Now I am at the source of Blessedness." - Frederic Chopin

"My faith is the grand drama of my life. I'm a believer, so I sing words of God to those who have no faith." - Olivier Messiaen

"It is a great consolation for me to remember that the Lord, to whom I had drawn near in humble and child-like faith, has suffered and died for me, and that He will look on me in love and compassion." - Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart

"When I open my eyes, I can only sigh, for what I see is contrary to my creed: and I must despise the world for not perceiving that music is a higher revelation than any wisdom or philosophy. It is the wine that inspires new creations, and I am the Bacchus, who presses out this wine for men, and makes them spiritually drunk; when they are sober they bring to shore all kinds of things which they have caught. God is nearer to me than to others. I approach him without fear, I have always known him. Neither am I anxious about my music, which no adverse fate can overtake, and which will free him who understands it from the misery which afflicts others." - Ludwig van Beethoven

Enough said (just kidding, lets not start some sort of quote war please)

The only reason why i sort of respect the church is because of art and music.

Not sure that Chopin really was christian.

[wishful thinker]

Wow, I've been away a few days and look what's happened! Prometheus has lost his crown of PianoForum's most ignornant bigot to someone called Lostinidlewonder 

In Cristo, fratelli

[prometheus]

Yeah, I wonder why not.

John

Because religion is only a motivation. If you aren't religious you don't have a religous motivation. If a motivation is religious or not makes no difference. So an atheist will never claim she or he is so creative or motivated because her or his motivation is not religion. And that is what it means to be an atheist, not being religious.

So an atheist may say the same thing as a christian. Only she or he will talk about something else.

[pianistimo]

Christ treated everyone equally whether they were taxcollectors, greedy, insincere, and had many of the vices of theives and prostitutes.  even demon possessed people.  did you know that mary magdalene was the one whom Christ exorcised seven demons?  He replaced her previous thoughts with good thoughts from the influence of the Holy Spirit.  when the Holy Spirit indwells in a person - they become a new 'man' or 'woman' than they previously had been.  in fact, the church is sometimes called 'called out ones' or the 'community of saints.'  they are saints while still alive and also saints at death.  they are granted eternal life in the judgement because Christ paid the penalty for their sins.  noone can 'absolve' your sins.  you cannot do any sort of 'penance' except go to Christ.  there IS a scripture that says to 'admit your faults to one another' (carefully choosing whom you tell) so that prayer can be said in your behalf to overcome the sin.

[berceuse]

The only reason why i sort of respect the church is because of art and music.

Not sure that Chopin really was christian.

On the subject of Chopin, it is my understanding that he was born Catholic but rarely, if ever, discussed religion. Liszt is quoted as saying: "Sincerely religious, and attached to Catholicity, Chopin never touched upon this subject, but held without attracting attention to it. One might have been acquainted with him for a long time, without knowing exactly what his religious opinions were." Also a quote from one of his serevants: "He was religious but, as I could observe, he didn't like to let it be known to anybody. Not out of curiosity but for fear of an accident."

On an unrelated note, did you know Romanian philosopher Emil Cioran almost converted to Christianity because of his love for Bach? I found that to be very interesting.

[johnny-boy]

I remember reading in Tchaikovsky's letters about his thoughts on religion. He said he was too afraid not to believe.

Best, John

[mike_lang]

This is against christianity, to say that we ask some human who is dead to PRAy for us. What the heck. When the virgin mary died she died, she is in the ground, she was no raised into heaven and is there looking down at us....NO where in the bible does it say mary is in heaven...

Of course the Virgin Mary is in Heaven - she was the sinless Mother of God.  At the end of her life, she ascended to Heaven body and soul.

[johnny-boy]

So an atheist will never claim she or he is so creative or motivated because her or his motivation is not religion

I don't know, couldn't the atheist say he/she is "so creative or motivated" because he/she doesn’t have the limitations attached to a religious person?

John

[maul]

Yeah, prometheus kinda missed the mark there... and quit referring to everyone who isn't religious as an atheist. Cling cling cling to religion. Dilute the mind. Enjoy the bliss. Get your free dose today.

[lostinidlewonder]

Wow, I've been away a few days and look what's happened! Prometheus has lost his crown of PianoForum's most ignornant bigot to someone called Lostinidlewonder 

In Cristo, fratelli

It is good to see you can judge someone so confidently by only reading what they write.

[pianistimo]

the challenge to christianity was not started by us.  talk about bigotry.

[prometheus]

I don't know, couldn't the atheist say he/she is "so creative or motivated" because he/she doesn’t have the limitations attached to a religious person?

Religion has many negative effects. But this is not one of them. Religion does not limit motivation and creativity.

Actually, as I said before, religion provides a higher risk of becomming a fanatic. And fanatics are quite motivated.

[ada]

Christ treated everyone equally whether they were taxcollectors, greedy, insincere, and had many of the vices of theives and prostitutes. 

What vices do prostitutes have?

Apart from (in most/many cases) poverty, lack of education, a drug habit and children to support? Add to that HIV, a history of sexual abuse and a whole lot of desperation. Those vice-filled hussies.

I suppose you are going to tell me they tempt poor innocent men into lustful ways.

[pianistimo]

from watching vice squad and booty hunter, i'd say that they, on a scale of 1-10 are probably 2 in the worst crimes ever committed.  of course, there are the occasional 'lets mangle the guy.'  but, i haven't really ever heard of that in the news.  you know, the man gets tied up and butchered.  usually it's the other way around.  and, agreed - there is a lot of sadness to a prostitutes life.

prometheus isn't one to see this yet, but perhaps he will.  i think Christ saw it right away.  after all - He knows all of mankinds vices.

perhaps we dont' realize the extent of the sin of prostitution, too.   Christ sees it through different eyes.  He sees the worth of every woman - no matter what she thinks of herself.  and, His purpose was to free all mankind from the slavery of sin (whatever sins).  it IS a slavery because people in prostution become bound to their pimps (from what i understand - and have a hard time breaking away without fear for their lives.  this is part of the problem - and then, the other part is that it breaks up families if the wife hears about it.  what woman wants to be with a guy who's been seeing prostitutes?  and probably visa-versa.  i think God wants us to be faithful to our mates.  that is having honesty to a high degree - and admitting fault if something has been done so that a mate can have adequate choice in their health matters.  this is #1 to keeping aids down, too.

[ada]

I'm sorry. I don't understand what you're saying.

I think you are saying that prostitutes are sinful. If so, I direct you back to my earlier post.

[pianistimo]

and i direct you to God who sees things differently than we do.  it IS a sin.  nothing can change that.  no matter what we think.  i tend to think that if we were animals - we'd definately be doing it with whomever we thought attractive.  it would also lead to a lot of jealousy and killing.

[prometheus]

Sin is only a way to label someone that has made a 'mistake', or choose to do something 'wrong' so that others can unleash their aggression on that person.


I saw lostinidlewonder do the same. A prostitute is the pinnacle of sin for christians. This shows their obsession with sexuality, or the obsession of their god with sexuality if you must believe them, instead of with real morality. Who is hurting who. A prostitute does not harm people.

Its only a sin because it is a traditional taboo; females were to be virgins or otherwise they would be useless in arranging marriages. And it is a sin so that we can unleash our aggression; Stoneing, honor revenge. You see that a lot in the more primitive societies. If a female does something 'wrong' sexualty the honor of the family is damaged and the brother or father kill her. Happens with both christians and muslims. I don't know a contemorary jewish case probably because they are fewer.

[thalbergmad]

What vices do prostitutes have?

Apart from (in most/many cases) poverty, lack of education, a drug habit and children to support? Add to that HIV, a history of sexual abuse and a whole lot of desperation. Those vice-filled hussies.

I suppose you are going to tell me they tempt poor innocent men into lustful ways.

1. Poverty - get a proper job
2. Lack of Education - should not have played truant so much
3. Drug habit - give it up
4. Children to support - should not have had it if could not afford it.
5. HIV - should have used rubbers
6. Sexual abuse - occupational hazard
7. Desperation - join the club

Those poor poor prostitutes.

[pianistimo]

dear prometheus,

agree with thalbergmad.  also, the whole entire church (no matter which one) is full of sinners.  are you saying that prostitutes cannot go to church.  this is ridiculous.  we do not live in the victorian age anymore.  i would bet that even some church pastor's wives have made some passion plays - but only because they are jealous of the constant attnetion of younger women towards their husbands.

church, work, whatever situation a person is in - you have people variously repulsed or attracted to each other.  and, some can maintain a very good 'working mind' mentality and avoid the thoughts altogether.

joseph, although tempted by a high powered good looking woman - chose to get out of the room when tempted by her.  we all have the inner fortitude to make our lives whatever they will be.  if you believe it is a sin, then you are condemned by your actions.  if you have not yet 'come to Christ' - of course, you will not feel guilty. 

the churches that i've attended have never asked for any sort of 'confession.'  thus, noone would know if they were a previous prostitute or murderer.  i don't say this to compare the sins - but in a sense - a prostitute is stealing something very precious from a man.  and, she gets nothing in return when she is older but a certain dead-beat look from too much drinking and getting it on.  people CAN change, though.  and, they can be the BEST christians because they can help others avoid the sin that they had.  whatever sin it might be.  drinking, gambling, prostitution, whatever. 

now, i think some christians might go overboard and never have  drink, never play cards, and never rip off the clothes of their mate.  it's a kind of freeing experience to just ask your husband if he doesn't mind losing a t-shirt and ripping it from top to bottom.  don't know if bible studies have been known to enter the topic of sex - but i think it  might free some people from the idea that the church is against it.  married sex is sanctified and encouraged as far as i know.  i would even go so far as to say - encouraging them to read and be informed of sexual practices which enhance their love for each other.  my own personal views may be different than another woman's - so whatever keeps two people together enjoying one another is ok by me.  rather that than have a man looking for a prostitute to fulfill unmet desires.  it's probably a case of deciding 'which is worse?'  i also think that people should discuss their sexual fantasies before getting married to see if the other person is turned on by them or will probably not be interested.  i think finances are lower on the list of reasons for divorce than probably sexual dissatisfaction.  when people are young - they don't really want to put into words what they are expecting...but i think that it's a good idea.  a list of sorts.  what you really want.  what you would settle for.  what you could never take.