Christianity - Plague of the MIND

[pianistimo]

without God we have shostakovich's impression of life in stalinist russia.  i just heard shostakovich's fifth symphony (and as great as the composing and scoring - felt that it was a symbol of an oppressed composer - showing exactly how children are turned into 'believers' of something else in russia).  shostakovich gave a performance of this symphony to a concert hall in russia - and the 'planted KGB spies' after they heard the piece thought that the people in the concert hall were planted.  so they gave another performance to only government people - and they also liked the piece.  how could they not!  it was an honest impression of what was happening in russia.   places in china.  places in iran and probably still iraq - where christians are killed for believing.  they are not allowed to have any religion which claims adherance to any law other than the one that is for that country.  it is a very stark reality. 

you all may laugh - but i believe in manifest destiny.  the son's of abraham (father of MANY nations), imo, are the very sons (including some arabs of ishmaels descent) who know of God, Jesus Christ, the history of their nations, and they have the bible as a foundation for their own governments.  britain and the usa in particular - could very well be the tribes of ephraim and manassah.  they were said to 'obtain the blessing'  that was given them in the bible as they turned into complete nations.  the continent of australia and islands such as hawaii.  the 'straits' - of gibralter.  these were manifest extensions of God's blessing in their wealth and prophecied to happen this way in the bible!

all through history, God has had a small hand in human affairs.  after all - there are many verses that say 'he lifts up, and brings low...'  so noone is in government that he has not allowed to be there.  for HIS purposes.  i do not understand the reign of hitler and why God allowed him to fulfill his evil plans - and i understand the reasoning for some of disbandoning God as they feel he disbandoned them -

but - if israel is God's chosen (to lead the world in righteousness) to keep his law and his tenents.  maybe it was a purpose towards 1947 and the beginning of the state of israel.   would the state of israel have come into existence without people being forced from their lands and forced to live in their own country - which is appropriately israel?  i don't know - but for me - if God is returning first and judging first the jews (part of israel) then he will be pleased to 'come to His own.'  Jesus Christ was born a jew and yet - died for all.  His jewishness is nothing - because in the spirit - we are neither male nor female - slave nor free.  i take it that the color of our skin will not matter either!  and yet, in our governments - race is an issue.  we have to fill out forms telling which race we are.  this is ridiculous to God.  if we are human - we are part of one great race - all descended from adam.

when a person becomes a Christian they are, imo, LESS likely to become racist and bigoted.  after all, Christ died for the entire world.  He said 'i have come to bring life...'  and 'He gave His only begotten son, that whoso believeth , believeth in Him - should not perish - but have everlasting life...'  if we know salvation is granted to the weakest and poorest among us - then God certainly doesn't grant favorites.  perhaps - in the very long term scenario - He will show us at the resurrection of the dead that all the governments of mankind failed because they did not have the peace (knowledge of God's ways) and the love (knowledge of God himself) that they needed to be successful governments.

[thalbergmad]

And here endeth the reading from the book of senseless witterings, chapter 4.

[pianistimo]

many people try to make sense of the jewish holocaust - and, imo, if it is to have a great significance in the future - it is that the jewish people - alongside Christ -of whom they denied as savior - will suddenly be ressurrected in glory.  the firstfruits (as He was) of a love that goes beyond all comprehension.  from hatred to love.  that is exactly what Christ himself experienced on this earth.  simply for proclaiming God's laws and ways - which the jews continued to do and were persecuted for.  satan does not persecute without reason.  he wants God to die.  he wants God's ways to be destroyed.  so, imo, He attempted to destroy knowledge of God and knowledge of hope.  the jews who survived the holocaust are reminders that God ALWAYS has a 'remnant' people to carry on throughout history the 'vision' of what happened in history as well as what will happen in the future. 

the reason i believe in the ultimate saving of the jewish race is that isaiah speaks of israel (even the land) as a bride.  isa 52:1 'awake, awake, clothe yourself in strength, o zion; clothe yourself in your beautiful garments, o jerusalem, the holy city.'  after this verse there is a prophecy of sorts of the oppression of the jews (vs. 3) ...you were sold for nothing (just as joseph was in egypt) and you will be redeemed without money...but, you will not go out in haste, nor will you go as fugitives - for the Lord will go before you and the God of Israel will be your rear guard.'  this hasn't happened yet.  but it will.

isa. 62 'for zion's sake i will not keep silent, and for jerusalem's sake i will not keep quiet, until her righteousness goes forth like brightness,a nd her salvation like a torch that is burning.  and the nations will see your righteousness (God will grant it), and all kings your glory; and you will be called by a new name, which the mouth of the Lord will designate, you will also be a crown of beauty in the hand of the Lord, and a royal diadem in the hand of your God.  it will no longer be said to you, 'forsake,' nor to your land will it any longer be said, 'desolate.'  but, you will be called, 'my delight is in her, and your land 'married'; for the Lord delights in you, and to Him your land wil be married for as a young man marries a virgin, so your sons will marry you;and as the bridgroom rejoices over the bride, so your God will rejoice over you.'

'on your walls, o jerusalem, i have appointed watchmen (people who can tell us the times in which we live); all day and all night they will never keep silent.  you who remind the Lord, take no rest for yourselves; and GIVE HIM NO REST until He establishes and makes Jerusalem a praise in the earth....'

[thalbergmad]

Would it be possible in just a couple of short sentences, if you could advise me what the hell you are prattling on about this time.

Thanks in advance.

Thal

[pianistimo]

i forgot my train of thought - being that i went and cleaned up the house for a couple of hours and really didn't give it a second thought.  perceptions are always different for everyone - and i suppose my perception of 'plague of the mind' is similar to ahintons or pianolist's - one of them or both said and agreed that killing others for religious reasons was a fur cry from proseletyzing.  although, i myself, do not really like the door to door stuff.  usually, i say - i already have a church and shut the door.  but, not without smiling.
 
there are other ways God comes to people.  one is by miracles.  miracles are not easily forgotten, but with my own life - it's been more than 20 major ones and hundreds per week of minor ones.  just little prayers for other people who are sick or some need i have to find something lost - or i've even prayed over the garbage disposal - and amazingly it was stuck - and then - starts working.  i really can't explain these answers to prayer at all - other than God. 

peace of mind.  there are times when everyone's brains get a little messed up - and you need encouragement, comfort, etc. and noone is around at the time to give it.  if you pray at these times - it's AMAZING the comfort that one can feel.  i'm serious.  (sorry to keep saying that).  also, i've learned to turn to reading the bible in whatever mental state i'm in.  usually if i'm sad or angry - i feel much MUCH better.  and even if i'm already joyful - it give me a purpose and direction in my day.  there's nothing in the bible that is truly depressing.  it's quite positive.

[thalbergmad]

there's nothing in the bible that is truly depressing.  it's quite positive.

Yeh, murder, stonings, crucifixtions, aminal sacrifice, war, torture, slavery, plagues etc.

Not depressing at all.

Thal

[asyncopated]

It will not happen that way. If you expect something like this you probably are searching at the wrong direction.

Also looked under the table, in the cupboard and on the top shelf.... nope not there.  Give me a clue?  North, south, east or west?  Am I hot or cold?  Is he playing hide and seek again?

Perhaps you could convince him to take sometime out of his busy schedule to give me a call.  I'm sure he has my mobile, but if he really needs it pm me so that I can give it to you to pass it on.

[pianowolfi]

Also looked under the table, in the cupboard and on the top shelf.... nope not there.  Give me a clue?  North, south, east or west?  Am I hot or cold?  Is he playing hide and seek again?

Perhaps you could convince him to take sometime out of his busy schedule to give me a call.  I'm sure he has my mobile, but if he really needs it pm me so that I can give it to you to pass it on.

Ok these parts of a scene from Goethe's Faust may give you an idea. Because I could not express it better than Faust in his answer to Margaret's question.


MARTHA'S GARDEN
[MARGARET. FAUST.]

Margaret. Promise me, Henry!
Faust. What I can!
Margaret. How do you feel about religion? Tell me, pray.
You are a dear, good-hearted man,
But I believe you've little good of it to say.
Faust. Hush, hush, my child! You feel my love for you.
For those I love, I'd give my blood and body too,
Would no one of his feelings or of church bereave.
Margaret. That's not enough. We must believe!
Faust. Must we?
Margaret. Ah, could I but impress you, Henry dear!
The Holy Sacraments you also don't revere.
Faust. I do revere them.
Margaret. But without desire, alas!
It's long since you confessed or went to mass.
Do you believe in God?
Faust. My darling, who dare say:
"I believe in God"? You may
Ask priest or sage, and you'll receive
What only seems to mock and stay
The asker.
Margaret. So you don't believe?
Faust. Sweet vision, don't misunderstand me now!
Who dare name Him?
And who avow:
"I believe in Him?"
Who feels and would
Have hardihood
To say: "I don't believe in Him?"
The All-Enfolder,
The All-Upholder,
Enfolds, upholds He not
You, me, Himself?
Do not the heavens over-arch us yonder?
Does not the earth lie firm beneath?
Do not eternal stars rise friendly
Looking down upon us?
Look I not, eye in eye, on you,
And do not all things throng
Toward your head and heart,
Weaving in mystery eternal,
Invisible, visible, near to you?
Fill up your heart with it, great though it is,
And when you're wholly in the feeling, in its bliss,
Name it then as you will,
Name it Happiness! Heart! Love! God!
I have no name for that!
Feeling is all in all;
Name is but sound and smoke,
Beclouding Heaven's glow.
Margaret. That's all quite nice and good to know;
Much the same way the preacher talks of it,
Only in words that differ just a bit.
Faust. Wherever the light of Heaven doth shine,
All hearts repeat it, everywhere, and each
In its own speech;
Then why not I in mine?



nuff said

Edit:  I somehow felt a slight temptation to write "Pianistimo" instead of "Margaret". But really only a slight one.

[pianistimo]

faust is the devil.  but, he's rather persuasive.  if he thinks feelings are God - and for people to look inside themselves.  but, i think God (despite being in and through the universe - as pianowolfi says) is only a prayer away.  He wants personal contact with us - and margurite -despite her simple mindedness - wants faust to experience something that he once had.  he doesn't want it.  it is a willingness to recognize God as supreme.  Lord and Master.  faust is his own master.  therefore, he is actually worshipping himself.  and, he wants margurite to worship him too. 

this isn't surprising, since he wanted Christ to also bow down and worship him.  after Christ fasted fourty days and nights -he 'then became hungry.'  i always laugh at this statement.  of course, he was hungry!  and, being closer to temptation, Satan said that he would give him all the kingdoms of this world (which means he thinks he owns them now) if He would 'fall down and worship' him. 

but, we cannot worship the creation or anything 'made' - or what is 'feeling' - because feelings can be deceptive.  Christ said, 'it is written, man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God.'  so - i once again wish not faust to explain God - but God to explain Himself.  He says 'I am that I am.'  He just is!  and he dwells 'in light unapproachable' and 'at the sides of the north'  wherever that 'north' is.  perhaps He will reveal Himself soon - at the second coming of Christ.  every eye will see Him.

[pianowolfi]

Faust is not the devil in this drama. The devil appears later in the person of Mephistopheles. You may read more at

https://www.levity.com/alchemy/faustidx.html

Faust has though an alliance with Mephistopheles (Mephisto), but he will be saved at the end as you will see if you read the whole drama. What i recommend to do because Faust has inspired many musical compositions also.

 

[ahinton]

Faust is not the devil in this drama. The devil appears later in the person of Mephistopheles. You may read more at

https://www.levity.com/alchemy/faustidx.html

Faust has though an alliance with Mephistopheles (Mephisto), but he will be saved at the end as you will see if you read the whole drama. What i recommend to do because Faust has inspired many musical compositions also.

 

Yes, indeed, susanistimo dear; you of all people really should be absolutely sure where and who the real devils are!...

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

May I try to assuage my astonishment that this thread has run to as many as 611 contributions by suggesting that "Christianity", of itself, far from being a "plague of the mind", is instead a subject which, for no imaginable or justifiable reason, prompts certain people of particular persuasions to seek to plague other people's minds with their interpretations of it?

Some of the things done, said and written in the name of Christianity almost beggar belief - and not just Christian belief, either...

Best,

Alistair

[asyncopated]

Pianowolfi, thanks for the quotes from faust.  I rather enjoyed them.  I've been wanting to read gothe for sometime now and you've convinced me to pick up a copy!

He just is!  and he dwells 'in light unapproachable' and 'at the sides of the north'  wherever that 'north' is.

I think I have problems with all of those statements.  "He just is".  I don't think god, or christ for that matter is in the same way human beings are.  The essence of being must be different, he is after all omnipotent and we are not. 

He dwells 'in light unapproachble'.  So where he lives there is high radiation content?  Lots of X-rays and gamma rays?  If you are speaking figuratively, what do you mean by light?  Should it not be that he is just unapproachable?  I take it then by light you mean goodness... whatever that may mean, because to me goodness is not an absolute, but a human defined concept.  So he lives in goodness that you can never get to.  Great! Excellent! if that is at statement of fact, and we know that to be true why bother looking for him?

You already pointed out the problem with the north.  He is obviouly not at the pole.  In case he gave us wrong directions, we even looked at the south pole.

What I'm trying to say is that these statments to me are mostly meaningless, you might as well say something like, "the sun rises because helio's chariot pulls it along."  To me, it makes for good imagery and literature, there is hardly any meaningful content. 

May I try to assuage my astonishment that this thread has run to as many as 611 contributions by suggesting that "Christianity", of itself, far from being a "plague of the mind", is instead a subject which, for no imaginable or justifiable reason, prompts certain people of particular persuasions to seek to plague other people's minds with their interpretations of it?

Here is a proposal for the definition of christianity ( or any other religion ) as a disease
(n.)  A condition of psychosis where a patient assumes the existance of and worships one or more deities.  This behavior hinders the patients ability to think rationally and in the most extreme cases exhibits a severe lack of insight into the unusual or bizzare nature of such behaviour.  A religious episode is often described as involving a "loss of contact with reality".  The disease varies in severity amongs patients.  By todays standards, this disease can be infectious, where the young are particularly vulnerable.  However,  there seems to documented cases of individuals which have developed an immunity.  There is as yet no known cure.

[mike_lang]

I think I have problems with all of those statements.  "He just is".  I don't think God, or Christ for that matter is in the same way human beings are.  The essence of being must be different, he is after all omnipotent and we are not. 

I agree that God's existence is not the same as human being's existence.  After all, we are made in the image of God, and we receive our existence Him, the Source of existence.  His existence is fuller (the fullest), but of the same essence.  He is omnipotent because he is the First source, the Prime Mover, and receives his existence from no one, because He is existence.  For that reason, we say He is.  For that reason, He said "I am Who Am."  Certainly, the one Being who is independent in the fullest sense of the word can be omnipotent.

[pianistimo]

very well put!  i'd say that if noone can contraindicate God - then we, who are fools for his sake, will be justified by faith that what He left behind (the Holy Spirit) is proof enough.  also, His creation is seen by everyone as a fairly complex machination that has to be 'precise' to allow life to flourish and grow.  if the sun was minutely closer or father we'd either be burned up or frozen solid.  also, the distances from earth to moon to sun are in such proximations as to allow complete and yet precise solar and lunar eclipses.  that is a riddle that cannot be solved without a pretty darn good mathematician God.

[prometheus]

Existence and being omnipotency contradict each other.

[ahinton]

Here is a proposal for the definition of christianity ( or any other religion ) as a disease
(n.)  A condition of psychosis where a patient assumes the existance of and worships one or more deities.  This behavior hinders the patients ability to think rationally and in the most extreme cases exhibits a severe lack of insight into the unusual or bizzare nature of such behaviour.  A religious episode is often described as involving a "loss of contact with reality".  The disease varies in severity amongs patients.  By todays standards, this disease can be infectious, where the young are particularly vulnerable.  However,  there seems to documented cases of individuals which have developed an immunity.  There is as yet no known cure.

It's an interesting proposal, as a proposal, although it is not one that I share; instead, I believe that it is, in most cases, people, not religions, that are dieased. As you know, I am not anti-religious on principle, although I am well aware that some people pervert religious teachings for the benefit of pursuing their own agendas; victim subjects of this kind of activity are not confined to religions, however.

Best,

Alistair

[mike_lang]

Existence and being omnipotency contradict each other.

How so?

[prometheus]

Asyncopated, the idea of religious as a virus comes from Dawkins. He proposed the idea of a meme, an idea or concept that seems to propagate and spead like a virus. The meme can have any nature.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meme


As for immunity.

I remember how I grew up as a child. I grew up in a 2000 pop town with three basic schools, one protestant, one catholic and one general. I went to the protestant one. We used to sing religious songs, we were told stories from the bible, we used to pray, things like that.

At the same time we had a local library where I loved to go to look at books about science and technology. I remember looking at a book about space, space travel, the solar system. I also remember loaning all books about dinosaurs, even before I could read myself.

So I knew very early on that the earth was very old and that many many animals existed and had died out. I also knew that this knowledge was linked to technology and that it gave mankind the ability to build things. There was no mentioning of god.

To me god was myth right away. I never realised that they tried to teach me at school that god was real. The stories of the bible, I realised of course that these stories took place a long time ago, in another place. To me they were telling me myths, fairy tales. Like the other fairy tales that I was told; snow white, sinderella, etc. To me this character called 'god' was like any other character. I do remember that some stories were very strange to me. For example, the arc of Noah and Abraham wanting to kill his own child. Also, Job and Moses.


Only later I realised that this character was supposed to really exist, even in our time. And that we were supposed to thank and worship him. It took a very long time before I could really accept it to be true that this was really what was happening with this god-character. That some people truely thought it was not a myth. I mean, adults were supposed to be sensible people. Surely they would see.

Still, I can't say I understand theism and god. I mean, I can approximate it using reason and fact. But I still can't really comprehend.

Why did I turn out to be so immune? Maybe it is the fact that the people telling me these stories, the primary school teachers didn't seem to believe the stories themselves.

But maybe it is also the child-science books. I grew up with the idea that humans could understand and did understand the world. That the world wasn't such a mystery. I maybe I never had a reason to need god to patch up uncertaincy in my life.


I do have to note that I never understood evolution at that age. I was a child and children believe everything. In a sense I was 'brainwashed' by science because as a child you can only learn through 'brainwashing'. Children believe everything. There is no way around it.
But when I left 'high school' I though that evolution was a weak theory that was poorly understood. And one that was being questioned by scienstists and one that was going to be abandoned within years.
I never realised this was religious propaganda. I didn't know religious people were so powerful and that they were out to kill the truth. I thought all these claims came from scientists. I mean, why would the people of those myth stories, sometimes nice but also often quite strange, want to attack science?

[prometheus]

How so?

God can't create a stone she can't lift himself. So she isn't omnipotent. Seems like a insipid play of words. But you can't get around it. It is implied in the two words themselves.

Omnipotent means infinitely powerful. Something infinite never actually exists. Infinity is a theoretical conception. Real power is always limited. So if a god exists it must have a limited power. Even if his power is trememdous.

Same with 'all knowing'. If God is all-knowing then she already knows the future. You can only be all-knowing if the world is deterministic. If it is she can't change the future. So then what power do you have? No power at all. It means she is as trapped in faith as everyone else.
If not, she can't be all-knowing.

If you tamper with these words, all-knowing doesn't really mean knowing everything, but knowing a lot , then the definition of God collapses. We only know; all knowing, all powerful, everywhere, always, holy, etc. But if the power of god is limited and her knowledge is limited then we actually need to define it. And the point of these words omnipotent, omniscient, etc was to be able not to define god. If you definite god then god can be, and will be, refuted.

[mike_lang]

God can't create a stone she can't lift himself. So she isn't omnipotent. Seems like a insipid play of words. But you can't get around it. It is implied in the two words themselves.

Omnipotent means infinitely powerful. Something infinite never actually exists. Infinity is a theoretical conception. Real power is always limited. So if a god exists it must have a limited power. Even if his power is trememdous.

Same with 'all knowing'. If God is all-knowing then she already knows the future. You can only be all-knowing if the world is deterministic. If it is she can't change the future. So then what power do you have? No power at all. It means she is as trapped in faith as everyone else.
If not, she can't be all-knowing.

If you tamper with these words, all-knowing doesn't really mean knowing everything, but knowing a lot , then the definition of God collapses. We only know; all knowing, all powerful, everywhere, always, holy, etc. But if the power of god is limited and her knowledge is limited then we actually need to define it. And the point of these words omnipotent, omniscient, etc was to be able not to define god. If you definite god then god can be, and will be, refuted.

I would like to know how you qualify the statement "Real power is always limited."  This statement seems to be the foundation of the supposed contradiction, yet I am not sure how you come to this idea.   Limited by what?  What real power?  The power found in nature, which is subject to God?  Do you mean that the One who  created nature, and therefore, natural law, is limited by His own creation?

[prometheus]

No, it goes beyond that.

The nature of the laws of nature aren't relevant. If you change the constants of the universe the laws of nature will most likely 'go ape' but then still you can't create a stone you can't lift. (matter may not even form under normal circumstances in a universe with different constants).

Let's look at what it means to have power. Power means you can influence something. So power means to influence something to make it do something it does not do by itself. This means something must resist this influence. Otherwise it will happen automatically and you aren't influencing it.

For example, lifing a rock from the planet earth. If you want to move the stone up it will not automatically do so because of the force of gravity. The force of gravity resists the stone going up. What it means to have power or infuence means that you have power greater than the resistance. So power is always resisted. So how is this power infinite? Or absolute? Power is always a set quantity.

The classical argument goes like this:
    1) God exists
    2) Existence is power
    3) If a being exists, then it must have power
    4) If all beings have some power, then they have some power to resist God
    5) If beings have the power to resist God, then God does not have absolute power

Now, you can argue: "What about outside this universe." Well, then, what kind of universe do you propose? Like I said before, you will have the same problem.

Then what if there is no universe at all? But then how can something be all powerful in nothingness?

But let us reverse the burden of proof. Why don't you propose something god could do to show us she is truly omnipotent? Is there an act that can only be done if you are omnipotent?


Surely, if god exists in a higher plane of reality that plane will also have it's own set of laws/principles. Otherwise, either nothing will happen or everything will happen at random.
Imagine a reality where god needs to do everything using a miracle. God needs to create a new individual miracle for everything that happens. That would be nuts. That's not our world.
Also, how can god be her own definition. Something must be beyond god. Otherwise you could just as well define god as the whole universe and everything that exists within it. This abandons the classical theist definitions. I wouldn't call that 'god.


As for god and the relation with the laws of nature. Clearly if god exists then the way she operates is through the laws of nature. They must be her laws. And why would see need to break her own laws?

As for god and human logic. Maybe god is beyong human logic.

If that is so then god is either beyond human logic because she is beyond it because logic is no good or she is beyond it because our logic is 'human'. Surely logic is good in general, eventhough it is merely human. Logic words very well.

Maybe logic fails when it comes to god because it is 'merely human'. But then this is not limited to 'logic'. All human thoughts fail when it comes to god. Even our logical thoughts, which work quite well when applied to other things. So then you can make no claims about god at all because they are human claims.

This means that making claims about god are just as wrong as making a logical claim about god. This means all of theology is useless. This means humans can't practice religion. How do we know praying is a good thing when it comes to god? It is merely a human idea.

[pianistimo]

God has done many omnipotent acts.  one was causing time to go backwards (not even stand still)  - as an example of an old testament story - believed by many to be a fable - that a sundial actually was witnessed to go backwards.  the parting of the red sea for moses and the israelites.  the dreams that joseph was able to interpret for the pharoah (before).  the noatian flood.  belteshazzar's feast and subsequent seeing the hand of God - tell him exactly the historical things that would happen - and having them come true.  the prophecies of the bible that are occuring as we speak.  individual miracles in many Christians lives.  they are all divine acts and not under a 'natural law' and yet they happen within our gravitational and normally 'natural law' abiding situations. 

when Christ died, there was a 'great' earthquake.  another is prophecied to happen before his return.  some might say - well, there are earthquakes all over the place.  but, not of the magnitude we're talking here.  it is enough for the entire earth to know that something, someONE, is saying 'attention please.'  that is after the other plagues that are signalling the return of our Lord and Savior.  armageddon is not a totally unrational thought considering the weapons of destruction that we now have.  BUT, what will be completely unrational is that the weapons suddenly are of no use except to destroy those who made them and who are making war with them.

do you realize that those who fight God at his return will have their eyes 'melt in their sockets?'  they will be receiving the plagues of their own creation.  but, it is said in revelations that God will protect and defend and return to 'his flock.'  king david said 'though a thousand fall at my right hand...'  i believe this.  when the final days of this current earth are seen - i don't think anyone will doubt there is a God. and, btw, the exact location of armageddon is in the bible and preparation for it is occurring now.  all the nations will meet at the valley of meggido (the valley of decision) which is a valley very near israel and iraq.  how interesting the turn of WORLD events to follow the bible?!  rev 16:16 'and they gathered them together to the place which in hebrew is called 'har-magedon.'  shortly after this gathering there is a 'great earthquake.'  immediately, the sun is said to become black and the moon to 'blood.'  perhaps people will be looking out of eyes that have endured the destruction of God after the attempts of man.  the plagues of God are said to be the 'last day' or the 'judgement day.' 

[prometheus]

Time going backwards makes no sense. A statement like this shows a lack of understanding about what time is. Please rephrase it in a relativistic sense. Energy can influence time. So when you rephrase it in a way that is understandable and when you give numbers on can calculate the energy required.

And an earthquake, it takes just a little energy. One could calculate how much energy it takes to accelerate the earth to .9999C and it takes a finite amount of energy. An earthquake is nothing compared to that.

Using just a few of our atom bombs we can create a global earthquake.

[pianistimo]

noone can yet ressurrect the dead - and the earthquake will be in combination with the dead in Christ rising from their graves.  ezekiel 37 'and He said to me, can these bones live? and I answered, O Lord God, Thou knowest...thus says the Lord God to these bones, BEHOLD, i WILL CAUSE BREATH TO ENTER YOU THAT YOU MAY COME TO LIFE.  AND I WILL PUT SINEWS ON YOU, MAKE FLESH GROW BACK ON YOU, COVER YOU WITH SKIN, AND PUT BREATH IN YOU THAT YOU MAY COME ALIVE; AND YOU WILL KNOW THAT i AM THE LORD.'

sorry for the caps.  i looked up and i though - oh well.  we'll both go eat some lunch and that will be that.  but, when it all happens i'll be saying - 'that's what the bible said!'  also, it says exactly where Christ will 'land'  - ezekiel 43:1 'then he led me (the angel) to the gate, the gate facing toward the east; and behold the gloryof the God of Israel was coming from the way of the east.  and His voice was like the sound of many waters; and the earth shone with His glory....' 

did you know that in israel - many people pay for 'hot burial plots' right near the east gate of the temple because they want to be first in line to see God.  i realize this is kind of silly because - good things can wait.   but, in all seriousness - if God is even telling us the location that He will return - He is a very well thought out - and methodical God.

you still haven't mentioned any awe over the precision of placement of size of the solar and lunar eclipses of the sun/moon/earth in relative placement in the heavens.  do you realize they fit over one another perfectly in size?  how could this happen in a big bang? 

[prometheus]

noone can yet ressurrect the dead

We can. But it depends of the definition of dead. You can revive a human after his body stops functioning. But only after about 10 to 20 minutes.

If it takes longer then patterns in the neural net of the brain start to degrade. If you safe all this data, which requires a HD way bigger than we have, and if your instruments are fine enough, ours are too crude, you can rebuild the brain bit by bit.

It takes very little energy to do so because we are talking about the molecular level.

If the data is lost it is lost. Both to God and to us. But by definition god is supposed to know everything. So it will never be lost to her. If god would forget it and then remember it again then she can do something very strange indeed. But she can't because that would contradict another property of god.

[asyncopated]

Time going backwards makes no sense.

This is true, partly because our concept of time is so primitive.  It's quite meaningless in the context of science to say time flows backwards, although it does have very powerful implications. 

For one thing, if you look at newton's laws, they go forward as well as back.  In fact you can't tell which direction is forward.  You just have to define one.  The same for quantum mechanics, if you exclude measurement (measurement is an inherently non-linear process and causes all sorts of funny problems).  If you look at schrodinger's equation, it is a hyperbolic equation, and hence you have parity symmetry in time. 

The first time one encounters laws that break this symmertry in classical theories is when you consider many interacting particles.  Only then we see that the somehow, the symmetry is broken.  This is particularly true of thermodynamics and statistical mechanics.   

In short, we know very little about time.  Having said that, there have been several very recent proposals to send particles back in time.  One proposal I read about uses entanglement in quantum mechanics, with all the implications of the EPR paradox and the like.  The other aims for something more akin to bending space time (using high energy lazers). 

I don't know the details because this is not really my field for research, but prima facie, there experiments seem to be very interesting whether they manage to succeed or not.

[asyncopated]

I agree that God's existence is not the same as human being's existence.  After all, we are made in the image of God, and we receive our existence Him, the Source of existence.  His existence is fuller (the fullest), but of the same essence.  He is omnipotent because he is the First source, the Prime Mover, and receives his existence from no one, because He is existence.  For that reason, we say He is.  For that reason, He said "I am Who Am."  Certainly, the one Being who is independent in the fullest sense of the word can be omnipotent.

Erm, your concept of fuller or fullest implies that we can measure a property call omnipotence   in human beings and in god.  Also you imply that not only can you measure this property, but you can also order it.

So on a scale of 1 to 10, god is 10? humans are 9?  dogs are 5? rats are 2? and how about bacteria and single cell organism 1.0001?  and inanimate objects?  1.0000001?

These are not sensible concepts to use with god.  They just don't work.  I still am not closer to understanding what First source and Prime move mean.  You need to speak in language I can relate to and understand, and make it such that there is no obvious contridiction in what you are saying.  Otherwise I just think god is a huge contridiction, and i don't think that that's right either.

[pianistimo]

imo, noone will discover anything that God doesn't want revealed at the right time.  space/time travel, ressurrection of the dead (for more that a few more years), eternity - these are concepts beyond us.

[asyncopated]

imo, noone will discover anything that God doesn't want revealed at the right time.  space/time travel, ressurrection of the dead (for more that a few more years), eternity - these are concepts beyond us.

How does god reveal something to us? Do we have to think about it or does he just show us?
I got 5 problems sitting on my desk that needs solving.  So I can just say, god will show me when he chooses to and not bother about them?  My boss will not be pleased. 

[ahinton]

God has done many omnipotent acts.  one was causing time to go backwards (not even stand still)  - as an example of an old testament story - believed by many to be a fable - that a sundial actually was witnessed to go backwards.  the parting of the red sea for moses and the israelites.  the dreams that joseph was able to interpret for the pharoah (before).  the noatian flood.  belteshazzar's feast and subsequent seeing the hand of God - tell him exactly the historical things that would happen - and having them come true.  the prophecies of the bible that are occuring as we speak.  individual miracles in many Christians lives.  they are all divine acts and not under a 'natural law' and yet they happen within our gravitational and normally 'natural law' abiding situations. 

when Christ died, there was a 'great' earthquake.  another is prophecied to happen before his return.  some might say - well, there are earthquakes all over the place.  but, not of the magnitude we're talking here.  it is enough for the entire earth to know that something, someONE, is saying 'attention please.'

But how do you, or can you, "know" these things - any of them? You weren't there at the time. Your sources for all of them are simply twofold - firstly, the English translation of certain Bible stories that you have read and, secondly, your implacable and unequivocal belief in those stories. Now I am not saying that this did happen and that didn't happen; what I do say is that, as I was not present at any of the events you mention, the best that I am in any position to come up with is, "according to [xyz]'s translation of certain chronicles by author [abc] dated [defg], the author wrote that [hij] event/s occurred in the location of [klm - no, not the head office of the Dutch airline!]" and, for me, that's simply nowhere near sufficient or scientifically satisfactory evidence to support these things without leaving great chasms of doubt. Never mind the sundial; is there any archælogical evidence to support, for example, either the earthquake theory or the meterological freak event affecting the Red Sea at the time?

that is after the other plagues that are signalling the return of our Lord and Savior.

OK - sorry to sound as though I'm repeating the question, but from what source do you derive your contention that there are, or will be, other plagues and that these will specifically signal - and be designed for the sole purpose of signalling - the return of anyone at all? I'm not challenging you because I necessarily think that you are wrong; I'm just asking you from what evidence you arrived as this very particularised conclusion.

armageddon is not a totally unrational thought considering the weapons of destruction that we now have.

Hey, wait abit; I thought that "Armageddon" was supposedly a phenomenon that would be visited upon mankind from a source outside mankind's control, whereas the havoc that can be wreaked with the weapons of destruction that mankind now possesses (as distinct from those mythical ones that may well be located in the murky recesses of what passes for the politically late Donald Rumsfeld's imagination but which no one's ever managed to find in Iraq) is within mankind's control and will be wreaked (if ever) by mankind upon mankind.

BUT, what will be completely unrational is that the weapons suddenly are of no use except to destroy those who made them and who are making war with them.

If only!

do you realize that those who fight God at his return will have their eyes 'melt in their sockets?'

No, I did not realise that at all, so I am indebted to you for alerting me to this. Where did you learn that? If it's true, I'll presumably be exonerated from this particular variety of optical torture, if for no better reason than that I have never had any intention of "fighting God".

they will be receiving the plagues of their own creation.

Well, it is undoubtedly true that many humans are indeed visiting tragedies upon themselves and their fellow humans (you can call these "plagues", if you wish, although I don't think that you or I seek to limit our terms of reference here to the kinds of medical demics usually conjured up by the term "plague"); I do not, however, share your evident belief that this is entirely beause of Bible prophecy, but at the same time I am not seeking to deny that the Bible might include such prophecy.

but, it is said in revelations that God will protect and defend and return to 'his flock.'

Well, whilst we have heard (albeit not from St. John the Divine") that "God moves in a mysterious way / His wonders to perform", He's surely going to have an phenomenally tough assignment on His hands, is he not? - protecting and defending "His" flock while all that "Armageddon" rages around everywhere, including in all those many so many locations still populated by surviving members of that flock...

king david said 'though a thousand fall at my right hand...'  i believe this.  when the final days of this current earth are seen - i don't think anyone will doubt there is a God.

This is open to argument, but it concerns me in any case that "when the final days of this current earth are" actually available to be "seen" and witnessed, those who may still be left after all that "Armageddon" to see and bear witness to it aren't going to be around there for a whole lot longer to worry overmuch about whether they believe - or in some cases still believe - in God...

and, btw, the exact location of armageddon is in the bible and preparation for it is occurring now.  all the nations will meet at the valley of meggido which is a valley very near israel and iraq.  how interesting the turn of WORLD events to follow the bible?!

Even were we to take at face value the proposed location for "Armageddon" that you cite here, there is no doubting that the original Biblical statement on it was its author's own prophecy - no more, no less. It's easy to make and publish such a prophecy, of course (most of us would be capable of doing that), but not perhaps so smart to go farther and put a precise date upon it; after all, whilst if that date turned out to be correct, the prophet concerned would be vindicated, if it didn't, the prophecy would be invalidated.

Who, in any case, is "preparing" for it now? How are they doing so? Is the Meggido valley being turned into a no-go-area by the military as part of these preparations? If so, by which government? Israel? Iraq (to the extent that it even has anything remotely recognisable as a government at all these days)? Not both in mutual agreement and co-operation, surely? We'd all have heard about that on BBC, CNN and the rest if a military pact between Israel and Iraq had been made! You state "all the nations"; is there even a pan-Middle-Eastern pact, then? This really doesn't seem to be getting any more credible as we go along, does it?

World events are not at all following the Bible slavishly in the Middle East; there have been major conflicts across that entire area on many occasions since Christian times, so it is implausible to single out any or all of the present ones as "following" Biblical prophecy to the letter, just as it is to seek to be selective about which Middle Eastern conflits in which era are the signal for "Armageddon".

Best,

Alistair

[pianistimo]

gotta run to the dentist- but 'i'll be back.'  maybe with a few more questions for God himself - as i surely don't know all the answers to the 'end times.'  i don't think anyone does until they occur. but, we know they will be 'supernatural' and that God can move the minds of rulers to fight wherever the location is that He has designated.  if it isn't in their minds now - it will be - right?  God is omnipotent.  therefore - His Word never returns to Him void.

[ahinton]

gotta run to the dentist- but 'i'll be back.'

Yes, I think that we all assumed as much...

maybe with a few more questions for God himself

So He IS a member of Pianostreet after all? Come on, Nils - what's His forum ID?

- as i surely don't know all the answers to the 'end times.'

No, that's very true - but don't despair, because no one expects that you or any of the rest of us do or should!

i don't think anyone does until they occur.

Exactly - and some not even then.

God can move the minds of rulers to fight wherever the location is that He has designated.

If this therefore means - as it sounds to do the way you put it - that He's no better than George Dubya Bush, I really don't want to know Him...

God is omnipotent.  therefore - His Word never returns to Him void.

Not like a dud cheque (sorry, check), then? - which reminds me of the old chestnut that runs "In God we trust; all others pay cash".

Sorry - had to divert this momentarily!

By the way, whilst you and "prometheus" clearly see Godly matters very differently, I think that I am correct in assuming that you nevertheless each believe in God; the very fact that no two believers even "see" (by which I mean "perceive" here, as distinct from the literal visual ability claimed by you, "pianowelsh" et al) God in the same way seems in some sense to be illustrated by the fact that you always refer to God with male pronouns whereas our Pianostreet poem of fire uses female ones. Now supposing that you are both correct...

Best,

Alistair

[pianistimo]

very astute alistair.  the bible uses the male gender - and Christ came as a male - but He says that in the ressurrection there is neither 'male nor female.'  i would assume that if we are made in the image of God - that he wouldn't purposely leave one half out.  therefore- i do learn from these discussions we have.  perhaps the 'engendered half' is the bride or the church of Christ who is to 'marry him' in the ressurrection.  He refers to himself as the bridegroom - and his bride has the Holy Spirit and was given this as a down payment or sort of engagement gift - promising more to come.  as it has been told to me, God is not triune - but rather a family that grows infinitely (just as a human family) - with a Father, Mother, sons and daughters.  this is a deviant point that i will not pursue at this point - but one for which many believers of this point have endured persecution and death.  i do not see God as a closed unit.  closed off from mankind.  closed off and cloistered by Himself.  i believe He is actively involved in our spiritual renewal - thus making us 'children of God' by the church (Mother) who has the life-giving Holy Spirit.

[pianowolfi]

Pianowolfi, thanks for the quotes from faust.  I rather enjoyed them.  I've been wanting to read gothe for sometime now and you've convinced me to pick up a copy!

 

[ahinton]

very astute alistair.  the bible uses the male gender - and Christ came as a male - but He says that in the ressurrection there is neither 'male nor female.'  i would assume that if we are made in the image of God - that he wouldn't purposely leave one half out.  therefore- i do learn from these discussions we have.  perhaps the 'engendered half' is the bride or the church of Christ who is to 'marry him' in the ressurrection.  He refers to himself as the bridegroom - and his bride has the Holy Spirit and was given this as a down payment or sort of engagement gift - promising more to come.  as it has been told to me, God is not triune - but rather a family that grows infinitely (just as a human family) - with a Father, Mother, sons and daughters.  this is a deviant point that i will not pursue at this point - but one for which many believers of this point have endured persecution and death.  i do not see God as a closed unit.  closed off from mankind.  closed off and cloistered by Himself.  i believe He is actively involved in our spiritual renewal - thus making us 'children of God' by the church (Mother) who has the life-giving Holy Spirit.

Susanistimo, I know in advance that you will despair, but I just don't understand any of this; He / She - bridegrooms / brides - triune / infinite - deviance (oh, mercy!). No - just accept that I appear to be lacking that especial faculty for appreciating the finer points of this entire gender/non-gender - God-and-His/Her-human-family thing and am - in your terms - accordingly a lost cause.

Best,

Alistair

[pianistimo]

well, let me explain it this way - God calls himself a Father.  Jesus Christ he calls the 'Son.'  Now how can he be fully any gender - being Spirit - and yet to us - we call Him by those names.  I rather think you are correct in that He is neither male nor female - and yet we have to call Him something - otherwise He is a sort of blob of something that we know not.  If He has no sexual features - we cannot call him 'androgenous.'  Being that God is pictured in the bible as returning, in fact, as a male (as every eye will see Jesus Christ) - i rather doubt that he will have female attributes.  also, if he is King - there will be a need for a Queen.  the queen mentioned as a 'bride' is the Church that he is returning to - the bride of Christ as i understand it all - will be those people who are 'followers' of Christ. 

the  parable in Matthew of the 'wedding feast' is a preliminary run through of the invitation, the dinner, and the 'closed doors.'  apparently there will be some people knocking - but their lamps have no oil and when they go to get some - the doors close and they can't get in.  as i see it - this oil is the Holy Spirit.

[prometheus]

I use 'she' for god because I would use the same for nature, the universe, forces, energy, etc. I am not entirely sure if I should use 'it' or 'she' in English. But in Dutch, I think, you use female pronouns for these kinds of things. I could use 'it', but I feel it is less respectful.

But I do think I often use 'it' while I want to use 'she'. Obviously it does not refer to gender.

Clearly the god of the bible presents itself as masculine. The cause almost certainly is because the society that made him up was a patriarchal society.


For me it is very hard to talk about god since I do not understand what god is. For me 'she' is the most neutral term for god.

Ooh, I don't believe in god, of course. I try to believe in as little as possible.

[maul]

Santa Claus is real.

[pianowolfi]

Santa Claus is real.

Yes i think he was bishop of Myra (6th century(A.D.))

[jlh]

I use 'she' for god because I would use the same for nature, the universe, forces, energy, etc. I am not entirely sure if I should use 'it' or 'she' in English. But in Dutch, I think, you use female pronouns for these kinds of things. I could use 'it', but I feel it is less respectful.

But I do think I often use 'it' while I want to use 'she'. Obviously it does not refer to gender.

Clearly the god of the bible presents itself as masculine. The cause almost certainly is because the society that made him up was a patriarchal society.


For me it is very hard to talk about god since I do not understand what god is. For me 'she' is the most neutral term for god.

I agree that it's pointless to talk about God in terms of gender.  God is a spirit, and therefore does not possess male or female characteristics. 

We are told that God created man (and woman) in His own image, but that doesn't mean our gender parts are created a certain way because that is what God is like.  The image of God in us is that we have a mind, will, intellect, emotions, and moral capacity.  Animals do not have a moral capacity, or a "soul" if you will. 

God did reveal himself to mankind in the form of a man, though if our society were matriarchal I wonder if God would have made Jesus a woman instead? 

Referring to God as an "it" does seem to me to be disrespectful because inanimate objects, animals and children are all referred to by that pronoun. 

I would think logically that "he" or "she" would be acceptable.

[jlh]

Yeah, I just had to make a post in the most popular religious debate thread on this forum... 

[maul]

Indeed. When are we going to eliminate the indoctrination. The contamination of the brain that has been injected from birth. The virus has wriggled its tendrils into so many helpless brains that it is now almost unstoppable.

One infected brain contaminates 1-2 more. Those 2 infected brains contaminate 2-4 more. Etc. The sad thing is, a majority of these brains don't have a choice in the matter. They simply have the tube gouged in and the virus pumped through it.

......

.......... and us, the one's who have not been infected, have to sit back and watch as the virus takes logic and scrambles it up like eggs. Reason? Sense? Sanity? Thrown into a shredder. It is more than a cult, it is a brain-eating virus of the entire human race.
The body has cancer. The mind has religion.

[ramseytheii]

Indeed. When are we going to eliminate the indoctrination. The contamination of the brain that has been injected from birth. The virus has wriggled its tendrils into so many helpless brains that it is now almost unstoppable.

One infected brain contaminates 1-2 more. Those 2 infected brains contaminate 2-4 more. Etc. The sad thing is, a majority of these brains don't have a choice in the matter. They simply have the tube gouged in and the virus pumped through it.

That reminds me of a potent image given to us by Tolstoy: he described a huge empty vessel, like a massive jar, on a vast expanse of water; water starts to trickle in slowly, but the more water gets inside, the faster it will flow.  He was describing generally how ideas spread through people's influence and public opinion, and specifically, the spread of Christianity.  Fortunately it works both ways: when people are educated to science and philosophy, they can begin to let go the old tenants of religion, of fabulous (in the words of Thomas Paine) stories based on imagination; of dubious morality based on blind faith to a fascist overlod; of idol-worship.

Tolstoy was slightly more enlightened to the Christian faith; like Jefferson 100 years earlier, he was anti-clergy and anti-church, and didn't believe in the Christ Jesus, but only in the man Jesus (so he could not really be considered Christian, like Jefferson); he believed all worship was reserved for God, and not for any man.  Also similar to Jefferson's editing of the Bible is the Tolstoy Gospel, where he combined the four Gospels into one, putting them into a slightly different order, resolving some contradictions, adding some text, and excising all miracles or anything which suggested the hand of divinity: no virgin birth, no resurrection, no miracle healings or procuring of loaves and fishes; no walking on water; etc. 

I recommend you to read the Jefferson Bible, and the Tolstoy Gospels.

Walter Ramsey

[lostinidlewonder]

If you are a Christian you will exclaim that you do not know much about God. God is defined in the Bible as being mysterious, even though it does reveal the tip of the God iceberg God is pretty much unexplained.

God for me is felt not explained in words. You can say things like you feel love, security etc etc but it means nothing to most when you say this. God is much more than this, God is everything and anything, God is there when you dispair or laugh. It is like you are a speck of sand and next to you is a body so big, close to you, why would such a force bother being near something so insignificant as yourself? This enormous force is like gravity, between urself and this infinite mass. It's like the gravity the earth has on our body, but it pulls us from within, our soul. I've been in desperate prayer and felt my entire body was the earth, I've been completely nervous before a performance and can channel all the negative strain away by thanking God for giving me the chance to perform. So the physical feeling you get from God is always different.

In Christianity we relate to God so we can relate to Love and Sin. We only sin against God, how can your thoughts hurt anyone else? How can you being jealous or greedy harm anyone else? You may go through your entire life indirectly harming people with your negative lifestyle and it may seem it doesn't hurt anyone and there are no concequences.

Do you believe that justice must always prevail? How terrible it is for those who die from injustice and it happens every second we live. There are places in the world where it seems like there is no justice and people simply die with no one there to punish the wicked. What a terrible world we live in! Where people still die from evil and no one notices. What happens to the African tribe child who watched his family hacked to death then killed himself? No one knows about this family, no one has done anything to find justice for them, probably no one remembers that exact moment anymore. So these people die from terrible injustice and nothing is done.

There is a terrible feeling when something needs to be done for justice but nothing is done. Most of the time it is justice a human can simply not dish out. Ask anyone who has had a family member murdered what justice can be done, they will say, bring the person back and make the moment never happen. You see this can't happen in our life now, no human will give it to you, but God promises that justice will eventually always prevail.

When Humans try to make justice it can often breed more injustice and it usually has strings attached. Look at the number of people dying in Africa from violence, much more than in Iraq, but no no, America will no help these 3rd world countries because there is no money, no oil, no resources, nothing monetary to gain from it. Injustice even exists in those forces in this world who try to fight in the name of Justice. So we realie the world really is hopeless, even though we try to make ourselves trust in our governments skill with the scales of justice.

Christians place responsibility to their actions, they realise that every day they do wrong and the wrong they do is against God, this is the Sin which breaks our relationship with him, but it is also the action which binds us together with him. For Christianity teachs that we are weak and we will always sin and be far away from God, but it is not necessarily that we always obey and follow "The Word" but that we uphold it and agree with it. Almost everyone in this world is already are Christian, we realise we are wrong we are bad and we do wrong, the only difference is that you shrug your shoulders at it. There is always reason not to care, just like there is more money in Iraq than there is in Darfur.

If you have a judgement a mind you enjoy having such a mind, it delights you to see something and judge. If you see a morbidly obese person walking you will think, wow how disgusting. You refuse to see the person is a person. And what benefit would you have to start looking at these type of people differently? It doesn't harm you to have a joke and look and laugh at people, it makes you feel happy, its something you can talk about later. You see we can never better ourselves for ourselves, we just wont care because we enjoy doing wrong so much, it tastes so sweet in our mouths, but becomes extremely bitter in our stomach. Most never know what this bitterness in our stomach is, some start to sense it and try to make changes.


Chrisitianity puts a stopper on Sin. A Chrisitian sins just as often as any other person, but they deal with their sin constantly. Christians are extremely humble and never point a finger in judgement, they know that they are sinful and no better than anyone else, they know that everyone in this world is equal, they love every person. They keep 3 axioms of Christianity always at heart: 1)Love Thy Neighbour, 2)Do not Judge less thee be judge 3)Deal with your Sin. Nothing from Christianity can harm you, only the way in which religion might twist it.

[lostinidlewonder]

Those who find in that they naturally disapprove of the existance of God believe that Humans are masters of everything. I'm sure that a lot of people who will not be saved in the end will all be singing the Frank Sinatra song "I did it my way". If you believe you can do life now it yourself then in death you also do it yourself!

As you die I believe you pretty much go through binary gate, 1 is the light 0 is the darkness. A lot of near death experiences highlight this feeling, a tunnel of light where this light is the only love you ever knew and emptyness and darkness lies everywhere else (science explains this as the brain firing off struggling to stay alive but the experience every person goes through cannot be explained nor reproduced in a lab).

Research has shown that a lot of people who have near death experiences many all of a sudden have an enormous spiritual realisation. They realise how simple life really is they have felt how in death all the material world becomes totally unimportant. How many of us are slaves to the material world, so much so that we are blinded from God! The simple choice we must make in our lives now is obvious, worship the material world or the spiritual.

I find it offensive that humans believe the world can be explained away and anything which cannot be explained is irrational or unimportant. In reality humans cannot explain anything, they can only describe the order in which things occur. The intelligence of how a cell knows to divide and become the organism it is supposed to be is still a complete mystery.

There are miricales happening around us every day, everything that grows by nature is a miricale. We simply become so apathetic to what is around us. When was the last time you looked at a tree and thought about the mystery of how it grows and and knows what it has to become. Many Christians will tell you that if they think about the mystery of nature they will feel God. Everything which grows by nature has a force connected to God. Of course Rocks and lifeless objects also are connected to God, but living things feel special, they have a life force which is similar but different to the energy you feel from inaminate objects.

Chrisitans can feel the special conenction to God in all living things. You can almost feel the weight. You feel incredible love for an animal, you appreciate the beauty of it, you feel the care you need to give to it. But when we turn our attention to a Human, this feeling is almost overwhelming. A human is like 1billion little cute cuddly kittens. But this type of feeling we learn to become very apathetic to instead. When we worship the material world we forget these type of feelings. We learn to just shurg our shoulders at it. It disconnects us from a spiritual way of life that only can come from a relationship with God and Christ.

Chrisitianity is the only religion where each follower will proclaim that they are sinful and constantly disconnect themselves from God with their actions. This might sound totally crazy to most. Everyone in this world feels like this I believe, that we all believe we do wrong in our life and cannot help ourselves doing so. Some choose to do something about it, some choose not to. For those who choose to do something about it, they either do it on human terms or on Gods terms.

When someone tries to do things on human terms however it doesnt work as easily as we might think. How do we change how we think if we have no one to answer for in our own thoughts? If we measure our value by the success in the material world then we generally will not care what we think in our heads because the success in the material world cosntantly affirms our secirty that we are in the Good. If you start becoming depressed all the thoughts rest on your own back, you have to carry all the burden. So then you try to get yoruself out of the depression and find you cannot because you are not as strong as you thought you where.

When death strikes someone you love you will feel the sting and pain of depression. Your mind will be plagued with the loss. There is nothing the material world can give you that will make you feel happy about a loved ones death. The real plague of the mind is the material world we live in. Christianity is such an oasis for the material world desert our minds must suffer in.

[maul]

*yawn*

[ahinton]

*yawn*

If you find the above two posts yawn-inducing, why are you bothering to read this thread at all?

Best,

Alistair

[term]

i appreciate your posts, lostinidlewonder.

Re: Christianity - Plague of the MIND

Such offensive and polemic topics actually don't deserve to get attention.

Nothing from Christianity can harm you, only the way in which religion might twist it.

hmm...well. If someone does no bad, then he can't do good. If you see good people, you find bad sides about them. But they may hide them very well. If you find very good persons, you find very bad aspects of their personality. If you don't find them, you haven't lived with the person long enough or don't know them good enough.
So that's pretty much why i'm not really into striving for being good *g* - of course i do a bit, but i allow myself to be bad sometimes; and that is actually a very strong experience - to know you can be bad, have a bad mood, and the others accept it as part of you and don't refuse you for what you are. The christian ideal doesn't really make sense in that way...

Edit: In  short...with evil, you have already planted the seed for good, and vice versa. A very good thing to know 

[maul]

If you find the above two posts yawn-inducing, why are you bothering to read this thread at all?

Because I created it.