Christianity - Plague of the MIND

[ahinton]

Well, now that that's resolved, can we close this thread?

Not, please, until you've provided to us your definition of a "run-on sentence"...

Best,

Alistair

[chopininov]

Not, please, until you've provided to us your definition of a "run-on sentence"...

Best,

Alistair

That's really getting to you, isn't it?

[maul]

Don't feed the troll, chopininov.

[lostinidlewonder]

This has nothing to do with instant gratification (this is the second time you've wedged that argument into your posts on this page alone). All I ask is for verifiable evidence. If you insist on defeating the atheistic masses with your vast knowledge of Biblical accuracy, you need proof--not speculation or observation--to validate your arguments.

You see you say you dont want instant gratification but want evidence that can instantly be verifiable. I really don't have the energy to give evidence to people then they say it is useless without even knowing how to weigh the evidence. I never say that this evidence PROVES it, but it is evidence you must weigh. AT the moment you are just saying, oh this evidence you give is worth ZERO A BIG FAT ZERO USELESS, TELL US NOTHING. Yeah so what this is what you think, you have nothing to back yourself up, I have countless people who dedicated their lives to this study telling me what they think, I'd rather listen to them than some one who cares about the material world and thinks about the spiritual only when they want to argue.

We don't need to look at archaeological evidence....

And why not? This type of evidence highlights the fact that the places and people mentioned in the bible are not made up. It does not prove it, it highlights the fact.

liw is drawing from Lee Strobel and Josh McDowell, each of whom draw from the other.  Neither is a researcher or scholar;  both have become very wealthy telling gullible people what they want to hear. 

This is just your opinion here. Neither is a researcher? They didn't exclusively draw from each other, I wonder why there is such a huge bibliography in Strobels book?


Im quite satisfied that those against Christianity have nothing to say. I have given detailed responses and there has only been, IT MEANS NOTHING arguments against it, which is useless.

The evidence must be weighed, there is no excuse to say it is useless. You must treat it as serious as you would investigating a crime, just because one bit of evidence might clear someone from the crime it doesn't mean anything until you get the whole picture. Those who say there is NO evidence are stupid, those who say the evidence is obvious are also stupid, but those who say the evidence can be weighed and we can come to an intelligent inference free of opinion and personal ego, then we are going in the right direction. Of course I have realized there are people who just don't care about the topic of God, I don't know how to interest these people, it is impossible. I can't stand some sports on TV, I couldn't ever imagine enjoying to watch it But you see you must admit you don't care, not put on an act that this is something you have researched a great deal into with great interest and come to reliable results of denial.

So the evidence I have given if it is useless how is it useless? Demonstrate it, don't just say it probably is useless and making just a guess at it. Certainly the evidence has doubts, but it also have confidence threaded through it supporting Christianity, this is the stuff you have to learn to weigh. I find atheists have a singular method to deny the results, they put 100% doubt in the infomation thus say the info is corrupt so we can't make any decision. This to me is a good way to avoid trying to weigh the evidence and thus your opinion. In court people don't say what people say is useless and all made up, they listen to what people say and then put that along side a lot of other evidence they gathered on the topic. You see you must work hard to make the picture make sense, not just look at one or two things and come to an answer.


I'll be away fro a week or two so let me just finish with: We are not here to prove Christ, the Resurrection or God. Let me tell you know it is IMPOSSIBLE to completely prove it, it is impossible to make it as obvious as a mathematical proof. But not everything in this world can be measured with exact measurements. Those who are naturally against Christ should take a step back, perhaps you shouldn't deny so much because you will never learn about the other side of the story. Same with those with natural faith, you cannot believe it foolishly and not test your faith, see how air tight it really is, how good is your understanding of it all?

To tell you the truth the proof for Christ is unimportant to me but very interesting. I personally love to read about historical characters and what our worlds history has to say about them. I like to look at the footsteps they left behind, ancient history intrigues me. But it is a speck of dust compared to the faith I have in Christ.

I will say again and again people these days want instant gratification. This is a real reason why people despise studying God and is what I say to those who shrug their shoulders at bits of evidence, I wonder if you would do this if you are a juror in court? If you look at our entire history nothing has ever moved so fast as what happens now. The world these days moves so fast it would frighten people even 50 years ago. The new generation, young minds, are trapped in this thinking of instant knowledge, I see it even in student I teach piano to, they don't want to do the hard yards, they want a secret way to get it all done immediately.

All I want is people not to say 1 or 0, yes or no, this or that. I want them to read and stand in the center, which way do you lean, why would you lean that way? God said faith in him is God given, we are given this, I cannot accept it I guess, I have always thought I can get people to see things in a different light. I don't intend to change peoples stance, but I hopefully get them to at least stop being so hasty to make a decision when it comes to God. That instant knowledge to God doesn't happen, and the only thing to interpret from this statement is that the topic is vast. You don't become a concert pianist after 30 minutes of thinking about your music.

[maul]

There is no evidence. There never has been. It's all bullshit. It always has been.

[rc]

I haven't read the other 57 pages, I don't really know much about religion either but I've been dabbling and exploring about it...  In my readings I've come across a little passage by Ralph Waldo Emerson that's relevant to why religious arguements always are so useless and frustrating, about what he calls the 'religious sentiment':

"Meantime, whilst the doors of the temple stand open, night and day, before every man, and the oracles of this truth cease never, it is guarded by one stern condition; this, namely; it is an intuition. It cannot be received at second hand. Truly speaking, it is not instruction, but provocation, that I can receive from another soul. What he announces, I must find true in me, or wholly reject; and on his word, or as his second, be he who he may, I can accept nothing."

...From his Divinity School Address, to which I've read he was called an atheist, probably because he believed his church to be a stale expression of faith.  Emerson has a very poetic writing style, which I didn't like at first but on second reading began to enjoy.  Not concrete at all, and anyone allergic to religious language might have troubles, but I've found many good ideas in his writings.

[lostinidlewonder]

..  In my readings I've come across a little passage by Ralph Waldo Emerson that's relevant to why religious arguements always are so useless and frustrating, about what he calls the 'religious sentiment':

It is really true that all religious arguments are frustrating, but they are not useless. It is fascinating to talk about something which is impossible to prove, it sets grounds for both sides of the argument to relax, take a breath, don't feel like we are trying to compete with one another. Merely throw down why we think a particular way, what makes us think a particular way. We shouldn't really try to say each others reasons are stupid, but rather try to understand each others opinions. I would really like someone to say, The reason I don't believe in God is because ...... and explain without critiquing why people believe in it. Us who have faith certainly do not explain the reasoning why by critiquing the reasons those use for not believing. If your reason is there is no evidence and my reason is there is evidence then you have a stalemate. Then you both have to consider each others perspectives, perhaps the evidence is corrupt, perhaps the evidence has value.

"Meantime, whilst the doors of the temple stand open, night and day, before every man, and the oracles of this truth cease never, it is guarded by one stern condition; this, namely; it is an intuition.

Intuition is a great way to explain faith. You can feel it you can sense the presence of God. Researching Christ has re-enforced my faith in Christ, but it is faith that is the driving force behind the decision to follow Christianity. I think this is important for access to God to be for everyone. Not everyone has an investigative mind, not everyone can research, some people are simple, live simple lives, so access to God must be as perfect to them as it is for those who want to research. I find I am a very investigative type mind, I don't trust things without knowing myself, proving myself. Although I have reverence for God since I can remember thinking, I still enjoy studying Christianity and there is knowledge for me to do so because access to God must be perfect and the avenue to God is also there!

It cannot be received at second hand. Truly speaking, it is not instruction, but provocation, that I can receive from another soul. What he announces, I must find true in me, or wholly reject; and on his word, or as his second, be he who he may, I can accept nothing."

Trying to make other people have faith is impossible. God said faith is a gift, it is given to you from God himself. The binding relationship he creates and you must respond or live lost. So for me as a human to think I can prove Christianity is being extremely arrogant. I'd never think I can transfer my thinking to others and make them forget their own. But I like for everyone to see some reasons why I think a particular way. So too is it interesting to see reasons for why people deny a God in their life but usually it is based on critique to those with faith (which gets boring) not personal reasons themselves.

[timothy42b]

All I want is people not to say 1 or 0, yes or no, this or that. I want them to read and stand in the center, which way do you lean, why would you lean that way?

I think we can agree if you want people to read from your book list (Lee Strobel and Josh McDowell) it would be fair to expect you to read some of the other approaches - not even necessarily those who disagree but at least those with a different slant.

Here are some suggestions to start with:

"Rescuing the Bible from Fundamentalists" by Bishop Spong.  He is a Christian and does not write attacking the bible, but has studied the historical evidence and has a more moderate stance than you do.  It is not high level scholarly research but is decent writing and is quite accessible.

"Reading the Gospel of Judas" by Elaine Pagel.  A good modern translation is included.  I know you haven't read most of the gospels that are available, this one is good to start with.  Again this is not an attack on the bible so you shouldn't feel uncomfortable.  We know much more about ancient languages now than when the KJV was written and modern translations really are much better. 

"Misquoting Jesus" again by Elaine Pagel.  I haven't read this one but have heard some good recommendations.  She tries to trace some changes that have been made to the texts long after they were written and get back to parts she thinks is reliable.  I knew about the end of Mark (the poison and serpents part) being a forgery but I didn't know some of the parables particularly the "cast the first stone" one may have been added hundreds of years later. 

"The Complete Gospels," I can't remember the author.  This is not just a modern translation but an attempt to recast it in current language, I'm not sure I'm happy with some of the word choices.  The value of this one is it includes not just the four you know but all of them we have. 

There are a couple of books that do attack faith that most Christians should read, including Dawkins "The God Delusion" and Sam Harris "The End of Faith" or "Letter to a Christian Nation" but I don't think your faith is strong enough to risk them.  Start with the simple stuff. 

[ahinton]

That's really getting to you, isn't it?

No, not at all, but since it's been mentioned, there would seem to be no obvious harm in making such a request; it's far from being the most preoccupying thing of the moment for me, so it's up to the poster concerned as to whether or not he chooses to provide his definition of that term.

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

There is no evidence. There never has been. It's all bullshit. It always has been.

And you refer to others as trolls. How interesting.

Best,

Alistair

[general disarray]

No, not at all, but since it's been mentioned, there would seem to be no obvious harm in making such a request; it's far from being the most preoccupying thing of the moment for me, so it's up to the poster concerned as to whether or not he chooses to provide his definition of that term.

Best,

Alistair

A reasonable request and one, I hope, that can be satisfied by the following definition of a "run-on sentence":  to wit, a sentence of two or more independent clauses not joined by a conjunction or conjunctions.

Given this definition, ahinton -- based on the evidence of this thread -- is not guilty of fabricating run-on sentences.  In fact, his prose is rather Latinate and reminiscent of the great Samuel Johnson in its elaborate and formal structure.  Faulknerian, as well, if he will permit me to say so. 

[gyzzzmo]

Lostinwonder, could you respond on my former reply?
In short: If theres a (loving) god, why doesnt he show his face on earth to get rid of all the religion and other annoyances? Maybe that god isnt loving? Or there just isnt a god?

[ahinton]

A reasonable request and one, I hope, that can be satisfied by the following definition of a "run-on sentence":  to wit, a sentence of two or more independent clauses not joined by a conjunction or conjunctions.

Given this definition, ahinton -- based on the evidence of this thread -- is not guilty of fabricating run-on sentences.  In fact, his prose is rather Latinate and reminiscent of the great Samuel Johnson in its elaborate and formal structure.  Faulknerian, as well, if he will permit me to say so. 

Methinks that thou flatterest me too much! - but I'll accept the compliments as graciously as is appropriate while at the same time thanking you for the definition that michael_langlois seems either not to have had the time or the inclination to provide.

Now I must "run on" and get some work done...

Best,

Alistair

[maul]

And you refer to others as trolls. How interesting.

It was truth, in a concise form.

[pianogeek_cz]

Hehe... Maul's occasional fragmentation grenades of a very 18-th century brand of sanity provide quite some comic relief.

[rc]

It is really true that all religious arguments are frustrating, but they are not useless.

I should've been more specific but by arguement I meant the sort of dead-end battle that it seems to always degenerate into.  Maybe I just haven't had the patience to follow enough religious discussions...  Otherwise I agree that any respectful discussion is useful, to see another point of view and also I find it to be a great challenge to put matters of belief into somewhat coherent writing.

It seems to me that most arguements of belief vs non-belief is doomed from the start because each arguement is coming from a completely different outlook.  When somebody comes into the question of faith looking for some sort of concrete evidence, it's already done.  If there was evidence, we wouldn't call it faith.

Not everyone has an investigative mind, not everyone can research, some people are simple, live simple lives, so access to God must be as perfect to them as it is for those who want to research.

Saint Augustine had the same praise for the bible in his 'Confessions', that it all has deeper meanings but was also made accessible to simpler folk.  I was impressed with his incisive intellect, how clearly he described the pitfalls and struggles with temptation, and his philosophies on memory and time.  Another point that's worth discussion is how superstition can creep into matters of faith, like how Augustine describes the Manichees, who believed that their higher-ups had the ability to eat food and breath out spirits, or somesuch weirdness.  What good could come of such a belief?  So it is good to be investigative.  There are times where I've found some ideas I've held to be harmful, but someone who never questions themselves could live their whole life with bad ideas...

[ahinton]

It was truth, in a concise form.

Er - no; the real truth here is in that mirror that you hold before you when vainly attempting to accuse others of trolling.

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

Maul's occasional fragmentation grenades

No; grenades do damage when they explode - there's a world of difference between them and damp squibs.

of a very 18-th century brand

Not sure about the 18th century - outmoded, yes...

of sanity

One man's meat is another man's poison, as the old cliché has it.

provide quite some comic relief

"Some comic relief" is, I think, what the perpetrator needs rather than provides, though whether or not he merits any is quite another matter.

Anyway - back to the topic.

Best,

Alistair

[chopininov]

You see you say you dont want instant gratification but want evidence that can instantly be verifiable. I really don't have the energy to give evidence to people then they say it is useless without even knowing how to weigh the evidence. I never say that this evidence PROVES it, but it is evidence you must weigh. AT the moment you are just saying, oh this evidence you give is worth ZERO A BIG FAT ZERO USELESS, TELL US NOTHING. Yeah so what this is what you think, you have nothing to back yourself up, I have countless people who dedicated their lives to this study telling me what they think, I'd rather listen to them than some one who cares about the material world and thinks about the spiritual only when they want to argue.

If you're going to quote me at least look at what I said.
If you're saying your speculations don't prove it, then what is the basis of your whole argument? I don't give a damn that 'countless people' have dedicated their whole lives to bringing some fact to an obvious work of fiction. If the best they can bring to the table is a bunch of speculations and opinions, then they probably shouldn't have bothered in the first place.
And please stop forcing these sad assumptions into your arguments about American people. "Instant gratification?" "Material world?" Please, don't amuse me.

Im quite satisfied that those against Christianity have nothing to say. I have given detailed responses and there has only been, IT MEANS NOTHING arguments against it, which is useless.

I have yet to see any 'detailed responses' from you. The only type I've read were of the rambling sort.

All I want is people not to say 1 or 0, yes or no, this or that. I want them to read and stand in the center, which way do you lean, why would you lean that way? God said faith in him is God given, we are given this, I cannot accept it I guess, I have always thought I can get people to see things in a different light. I don't intend to change peoples stance, but I hopefully get them to at least stop being so hasty to make a decision when it comes to God. That instant knowledge to God doesn't happen, and the only thing to interpret from this statement is that the topic is vast. You don't become a concert pianist after 30 minutes of thinking about your music.

Why would you think my (or anyone, for that matter) decision to reject Christianity is hasty? As a favorite comedian of mine says, I was religious until the age of reason. I rejected it when I started incorporating reason and logic into my decisions. Luckily this was before it became completely ingrained in my system.

[healdie]

i do not believe in a god or jesus but i think the bible has been taken too luiterally over the years i agree with the messages in the bible but i do not believe that they are true events i think they are guidlines too living a happier life

[lostinidlewonder]

I think we can agree if you want people to read from your book list (Lee Strobel and Josh McDowell) it would be fair to expect you to read some of the other approaches - not even necessarily those who disagree but at least those with a different slant.

You are assuming that I have not read anything outside of Strobel which is a wrong assumption. Also I never suggested McDowell, someone else did that. I only suggested Strobel's book to the few who want to start an investigation into Christ. I think this book is very accessible and understandable, it introduces the subject but is hardly a completely, detailed response.

Thankyou for suggesting the books, some of which I have already read through.

If you're saying your speculations don't prove it, then what is the basis of your whole argument?

Evidence, not video evidence, not first hand witness evidence, but other evidence. This evidence does not say IT IS or IT ISN'T, it makes you think which side it would more likely be. This is hard for those who want a yes no, 1 0 answer, that is what I am talking about. When I get resistance from posts which simply say NO, NOTHING, WRONG, i ward them off with, stop trying to say RIGHT AND WRONG and starting thinking about what could or what is possibly true. After all if you are a juror in court, this is what you have to do often with a lot of the evidence.

I don't give a damn that 'countless people' have dedicated their whole lives to bringing some fact to an obvious work of fiction. If the best they can bring to the table is a bunch of speculations and opinions, then they probably shouldn't have bothered in the first place.

This highlights your regard to knowledge and study of knowledge. Studying the Bible itself is a respected profession and it doesn't always have to be in a religious, worshiping  perspective. It is your opinion that is is a work of fiction, the historical Christ can be proven quite clearly and the accuracy of the Bible is unsurpassed by any other ancient writings. What I mean by unsurpassed is the morals, the medical issues (such as describing the water coming out of Jesus heart when the solider stabbed him with a spear to see if he was dead, this clear liquid coming out is fluid which would have surrounded Jesus heart as he suffocated on the cross, this can be medically verified nowadays and a medical fact, and certainly was unknown to ancient people  back then but it was reported in the Bible.)

So if you think the Bible is all made up then why are the places, people and historical events all verifiable? Certainly the verification isn't a YES OR NO again, but if they find an ancient tomb of someone who died back in 100AD and it was the family name of someone mentioned in the bible and the names of the family mentioned in the bible are chiseled onto these grave sites, it is quite accurate to say that this is the real deal. Or you can just imagine that some bible lover from ancient times snuck into the tomb and wrote all the names in there. That excuse you will have to use a couple of hundred times though, it just doesn't stand up.

And please stop forcing these sad assumptions into your arguments about American people. "Instant gratification?" "Material world?" Please, don't amuse me.

I have yet to see any 'detailed responses' from you. The only type I've read were of the rambling sort.

Rambling? If what we are discussing is rambling why bother be apart of this discussion? Some people like to treat these discussions online as a battle of wits, to prove that they can stand up to other people opinions or shoot them down. I certainly was this way when I was younger but i do not fall into this debate of knocking the other person off and defeating their ideas. I like people to talk more about WHY they think a certain way, not just say ITS ALL MADE UP, USELSS, GIVE UP. That doesn't tell me anything and is what I could probably learn from atheist primary school children.

Why would you think my (or anyone, for that matter) decision to reject Christianity is hasty? As a favorite comedian of mine says, I was religious until the age of reason. I rejected it when I started incorporating reason and logic into my decisions. Luckily this was before it became completely ingrained in my system.

I have heard testament from atheists and agnostics who tell me in great detail exactly why they do not follow a God. Often it has NOTHING to do with a logic or a research but their negative personal experiences connected to God. This can stem from parents who pushed it onto them, bad experiences in Churches, anti Christian posing (and believing that they are) Christians who spread a distorted Word of God etc.
 Since you cannot LOgically prove God you cannot Logically disprove him and turn away from him. So your decisions to turn to God or away from God must be motivated more from a faith than from Logic. However if one (like myself) enjoyed to see logic in God you have that vast avenue to research. It is however understandable that most people have no idea how to weigh the logical evidence to prove God, it certainly is not clearly defined as a yes or no answer, but a tendency to lean a certain way. For me I have faith which binds my trust in God and Christ, this is God given, I cannot transfer faith to anyone or teach it unfortunately, but I certainly can talk about the evidence we can read to research God. It is there, it is undeniably there, and no one can say it is RIGHT or WRONG but people can read it and see what it is worth, without simply throwing it aside and calling it inaccurate and useless.

.... In short: If theres a (loving) god, why doesnt he show his face on earth to get rid of all the religion and other annoyances? Maybe that god isnt loving? Or there just isnt a god?

What do you think a parent should do as their child grows up and leaves home? Do the parents follow the children, tell them what to do, pay for their bills, get them a house, buy them their needs and wants, provide everything for them? No, a parents is not responsible to make the life of their children effortless and easier. Certainly you are there to support them and guide them, but not live their life. Do you hate your parents if they do not do this for you? I hope not.  So why should God be any different? Those who have a relationship with God has guidance constantly, and we know the physical body is unimportant and death has no meaning to us for our God is the God of the Living.

i do not believe in a god or jesus but i think the bible has been taken too luiterally over the years i agree with the messages in the bible but i do not believe that they are true events i think they are guidlines too living a happier life

This is a nice thought that the bible is just a bunch of stories is to help us live out life better. Jesus taught in parables sometimes too, the Old testament certainly has some very colorful stories. But certainly we CANNOT say that the life of Christ was a story, because it happened (the historical Christ is more clearly depicted in ancient history than any other ancient historical figure, this is a fact!) . Everything that happened to him on the Cross and what he worked for can be verified historically. Whether he rose or not is a more difficult thing to prove, and it cannot be proved but you can see a lot of things pointing in the direction of the Resurrection and when this stands up against the scrutiny that he didn't it looks a lot more formidable. We certainly know for a fact that many ancient Jews immediately changed to Christianity when Christ apparently rose from the dead, investigating this monumental change in Jewish History is crucial for a clear understanding the effect of the resurrection, rather than trying to prove it happened you explain its effects. In Quantum Physics we do the same, we cannot see things we just see the effects and thus we know what happens in the physical state.

[mike_lang]

It seems we have a new Pianistimo.

[thalbergmad]

I am much more prepared to read lostinlittlewonders posts that hers.

However, if he starts proposing a 4000 year old Earth, i might stop.

Thal

[prometheus]

Actually, Pianonut was the 'new lostinidlewonder'.

Both are terrible.

[gyzzzmo]

What do you think a parent should do as their child grows up and leaves home? Do the parents follow the children, tell them what to do, pay for their bills, get them a house, buy them their needs and wants, provide everything for them? No, a parents is not responsible to make the life of their children effortless and easier. Certainly you are there to support them and guide them, but not live their life. Do you hate your parents if they do not do this for you? I hope not.  So why should God be any different? Those who have a relationship with God has guidance constantly, and we know the physical body is unimportant and death has no meaning to us for our God is the God of the Living.

You're avoiding my questions. Your example of parents/kids is very flawed, if you were a parent and see your kids dying, you would try to avoid that. And sorry if i say, but the rest of your reply about life and afterlife didnt have anything to do with my question either.

[ahinton]

It seems we have a new Pianistimo.

Er - I admit that I cannot be absolutely certain as to whom you refer to here but, bad guesswork notwithstanding, when did pianistimo ever refer to quantum physics as part of one of her an arguments?...

Best,

Alistair

[thalberg]

Certainly you are there to support them and guide them, but not live their life. Do you hate your parents if they do not do this for you? I hope not.  So why should God be any different? Those who have a relationship with God has guidance constantly

So you have guidance constantly?  Please give examples.

I have yet to find anyone who really has guidance....most people, their arguments on this falls like a house of cards the moment you apply the slightest amount of reason.  I would really like to see a true example of guidance.

[lostinidlewonder]

You're avoiding my questions. Your example of parents/kids is very flawed, if you were a parent and see your kids dying, you would try to avoid that. And sorry if i say, but the rest of your reply about life and afterlife didnt have anything to do with my question either.

I am not avoiding the question at all. You asked why isn't God around actively changing and making his way the only way, and I have said to you, in our life with our physical father and mother we do not expect them to do this! In fact you would protest if your parents controlled your life now and told you exactly what to do, why on earth do you think God has to be different? You want to remove the ability of free choice.

If a parent sees their child dying they will help them if the child goes to the parent asking for help. If you become a drug addict and live on the street without seeking any family to help you, do you think your family will come running to the streets to help you? I really doubt it. Especially if they have done it before and you simply stole from them and shot the money up your arm. WE spiritually do this in Gods face daily. GOD is NOT our servant, it is the other way around.

Actually, Pianonut was the 'new lostinidlewonder'.

Both are terrible.

You all like to tag people, it is a shame because you are missing the point of discussion and thus you are missing out on wisdom. Remember not all knowledge that is useful to you, you will agree with. People are trapped in their way of thinking and it is their own fault. If you want to call people terrible simply because you cannot discuss what they talk about that is your own ignorance not anyone else. So when I hear you guys try to put PIanisimo or myself in a negative light, that we are tree hugging chrisitians, that is totally your own opinion which does not really help anyone else reading it. Although I find it completely irelevant to the topic we are talking about, thus those who are denying Christianity get a black mark from these people who are simply wasting their time trying to call other people ignorant or terrible with ZERO justification. Useless.

Id like you to call me terrible to my face infront of me. Id like to see if you are so brave then to say something. At least online you can hide behind a computer and call people whatever you like with no evidence, thats a cowards way.

So you have guidance constantly?  Please give examples.

I have yet to find anyone who really has guidance....most people, their arguments on this falls like a house of cards the moment you apply the slightest amount of reason.  I would really like to see a true example of guidance.

I am God inspired in what I say and what I think, in how I plan and how I execute, how I work and how I rest. Of course this is not constant, I often fall into my human terms in doing things we cannot help this. I am inspired by God to say the right things when the time requires it, how can you explain it, it is as if thoughts are put into your mind and you are urged to talk about it. I find this all the time when I talk about difficult subjects, the tap just turns on and the information pours out. Probably why sometimes online (even though I restrain myself a great deal), what I write becomes very long.
   If I meditate upon God and his influence it is like a running tap in the mind. The mind is full of thoughts and observance of complicated decisions to make in life. But there is a source from within of serenity, calmness of approach, and just confidence that what happens will happen and will always happen and must happen but don't worry you are not alone.

These are very psychological effects on a belief in God. You do not feel that decision making in our life is completely resting on our shoulders. This is not a way to avoid your responsibility in life, in fact it enhances your decision making, it makes you do better since you are relating yourself to a perfect model, something you will never attain, but because you try to reflect it, it makes great change in the way you live your life.

I see it in my life there are many choices to make. I could have become an engineer and worked in my fathers business and make 6 figure  income. I followed this path, then something derailed my direction. Everything started pointing towards music, and then I met many famous pianists and teachers all at once, and things totally exploded. I could have ignored these instance in life, but it becomes difficult to ignore a tug in a certain direction. I also saw so many coincidences pushing me towards doing music it was hard to ignore. Some people treat these things as coincidence and nothing more, but I feel they are messages because I can feel the message from it, and it effects me though and through.

I don't believe anything is left up to chance, I really believe in being in the wrong place at the wrong time, but when you get moments in your life where something happens which makes you rethink your life, you can either give it no power and ignore it, or be interested and see what it is trying to tell you.

One  piano forum coincidence which occured to me recently from this thread was the question about Judas. In fact when it was mentioned I didn't want to discuss it because I didn't feel it was a good idea to discuss things like that with non-Christians, but now guess what? The Church that looks after my grand piano asked me, would you like to be in a debate at the end of the month? I asked what was it on, and they said everything to do with Judas with Christians and non-Christians debating the issue. HA. God won't let me ignore what he had already shoved into my face using other humans as his instrument.

Don't you see everyone is a tool of God whether you believe in God or not. He uses us all to teach and educate others. If you are a murderer you will teach the family you murder a great deal about life, although it is negative, you have been a tool to teach a huge lesson in life that these people will never forget. Why did God let this happen? Why does it seem that God put such little value in mortal life?

God is the God of the Living, there is no fear in Death, people put too much negativity associated with Death, ask a Christian about it they will tell you it is not a source for fear nor hope, we only consider Life as important since this is where we experience, in death there is no experience.

If we stop for a second and look at how much we value our own life. People kill themselves and are harming themselves deliberately every day and they think they are not. That is what makes evil so good. It is mixed with truth. If it where all false then no one would be fooled.

God gives me this guidance to see though what is evil and what is good. Evil is so close to good it isn't funny and it is sometimes impossible to read through unless you have the Holy spirit there to help you evaluate. God also lets you reevaluate constantly, he makes clowns out of those who think worshiping Christ is all routine. The organic nature of Christianity, how it constantly changes with you and evolves with you, how it isn't a set of routine, you can feel this living within you. It is as if you harvest a crush for someone at school or at work but you do not say anything. That crush gets more and more and more until you can't bear it. That is how the relationship with God feel like, its a huge personal tug, no one knows about it.

I have prayed for the sick and received answers. I had a friend get held up at a Petrol Station and I immediately prayed for him and they thieves left him alone. I was actually on the phone to him and heard it all going on, I immediately feel to my knees begging he wouldn't be hurt. When I listened back to the phone I heard the thieves say, "Don't worry we won't hurt you." Now why on earth would a thief say that?!?!??! Another strong instance I could relay (and there are many but they are no really required to be revealed because they are very personal to me) on the death bed of a close family friend, we said to her, "Jesus loves you." and in her unconscious state she responded as clear as day "I know he does." and soon after passed away. Coincidence, delusion, chance, luck? Sure you can see it in this light, but I must be a very lucky and psychotic person then because these things happen all around me.

[gyzzzmo]

I am not avoiding the question at all. You asked why isn't God around actively changing and making his way the only way, and I have said to you, in our life with our physical father and mother we do not expect them to do this! In fact you would protest if your parents controlled your life now and told you exactly what to do, why on earth do you think God has to be different? You want to remove the ability of free choice.

If a parent sees their child dying they will help them if the child goes to the parent asking for help. If you become a drug addict and live on the street without seeking any family to help you, do you think your family will come running to the streets to help you? I really doubt it. Especially if they have done it before and you simply stole from them and shot the money up your arm. WE spiritually do this in Gods face daily. GOD is NOT our servant, it is the other way around.

You're making strange comparisation again. If someone is close to me and in trouble, i would help him. That makes me better than your God, doesnt it?
And i'm not saying that a God would 'controll our life', wich would require alot of presense of a god. No, your god didnt show up once. Second world war would have been a pretty good timing for him to make himself usefull, if he's there.

[lostinidlewonder]

You're making strange comparisation again. If someone is close to me and in trouble, i would help him. That makes me better than your God, doesnt it?
And i'm not saying that a God would 'controll our life', wich would require alot of presense of a god. No, your god didnt show up once. Second world war would have been a pretty good timing for him to make himself usefull, if he's there.

How is my example strange? Please clarify.

You came into existence and it was a gift to you. You didn't ask to be born, nor can you throw up your hands and say, NOW I AM BORN LOOK AFTER ME AND EVERYONE ELSE (with no effort on our half to worship you) or I will deny you, you cannot expect that from your parents let alone God. You have a life that is yours and you must look after it, not palm it off to God and say, deal with it or you're not here.  If you pass your life to God what have you done for him?

It seems illogical and futile your idea of God since your wish sounds like wanting a God who is a Slave to the people not the other way around.

To say God didn't show up for the Jews in World War 2 is a joke. Please ask any war time prisoners of War and a lot of them will tell you it is their faith in God that helped them through the terror. You are just speculating. The bad that happens in this world is because of HUMAN not GOD. Weather disasters are our fault, Wars are our fault, we are motivated by the material world, it has nothing to do with GOD.

You want to deny existence of God when there is disaster yet you close your eyes to the miracles that happen around the world all the time. People who should have died but didn't, a rape victim who becomes a sexual abuse councilor and saves 1000 people in their lifetime, oh but that is just luck and adaption isn't it? The good things are luck the bad things prove God doesn't exist. I've heard that weak argument plenty of times. It would be just as weak as me saying, No scientist can make an ant without using an ant, so this proves God exists because we cannot do what happens in nature without nature. You do not see God stopping Wars and disasters, so that proves God is not there or is an evil character. You are judging God on human terms, it is like a Pig trying to tell a human what they think of them. Very amusing to me.

[maul]

My oh my. My oh my oh my oh my.



R.I.P. logic.

R.I.P. human race.

Thank you lostinidlewonder for contributing to the downfall of our civilization. Thanks for grasping the handle that has been stirring the soup of poisonous idiocy since the dawn of man. Slurp it up. Feed it to your kids. Spread the mind plague. What a luscious concoction indeed.

[thalbergmad]

I had a friend get held up at a Petrol Station and I immediately prayed for him and they thieves left him alone. I was actually on the phone to him and heard it all going on, I immediately feel to my knees begging he wouldn't be hurt. When I listened back to the phone I heard the thieves say, "Don't worry we won't hurt you." Now why on earth would a thief say that?!?!??!

He probably knew it was you on the phone and did not have the time to argue.

Really, for every instance like this, there are probably thousands of examples where prayer has not worked. I wonder how many people have prayed they would not get killed and then had their frigging heads blown off.

This line of arguement is worthless.

Thal

[timothy42b]

Y
Thankyou for suggesting the books, some of which I have already read through.

Glad to see you back.

But I gotta throw the BS flag on this one.  You have not read those books. 

[lostinidlewonder]

Glad to see you back.

But I gotta throw the BS flag on this one.  You have not read those books. 

So what am I supposed to say? Defend myself and prove that I have read them? You have read them so its impossible for anyone else to? It is too coincidental to believe? I really laugh how people see coincidence as a lie when it suits them, but happy to apply it to anything I have to say about Christ or God.

My oh my. My oh my oh my oh my.



R.I.P. logic.

R.I.P. human race.

Thank you lostinidlewonder for contributing to the downfall of our civilization. Thanks for grasping the handle that has been stirring the soup of poisonous idiocy since the dawn of man. Slurp it up. Feed it to your kids. Spread the mind plague. What a luscious concoction indeed.

Wow a comedian! Notice how I stole your great sense of sarcasm?  Don't give  up your day job.

This squabbling it just funny to me, it doesn't hurt me, it doesn't educate me, it only has use to the ignorant few who love to judge other people and think they are proving something.

He probably knew it was you on the phone and did not have the time to argue.

They didn't know I was on the phone because they stole the phone as well and didn't hang me up.

Really, for every instance like this, there are probably thousands of examples where prayer has not worked. I wonder how many people have prayed they would not get killed and then had their frigging heads blown off.

This line of arguement is worthless.

It was not a line of argument, I was asked to give some examples of where God has acted in my life. I gave a very bare few which I do not mind talking about. The others are too personal to rape on a message board, especially with people whose aim is only that.

To me when drugged out street trash rob a Service station it is most of the times very violent. It is extremely strange for a robber to say to the person they are attacking, "Don't worry we won't hurt you." because it is the fear they use to control the situation.

All I am saying is that it affirms to me that God answered my prayer and immediately, and I do not consider myself holy or even closer to god than anyone else. Can you imagine I heard screaming, crashes and bangs, it started out violent, I immediately, instinctively just wanted safety protection, don't let him get hurt. He lives some 7000kms away from me so I couldn't physically do anything, I was kicking myself later on that i didn't remember the suburb the service station was at because I could have rang the cops all I could do was listen. But I personally believe, others will think it is coincidence or just luck, but to me it is the hand of God reaching.

God has a way in speaking to me. It is clear, without hidden secrets, it is just plain clear and obvious. I use to see fat people walk the streets when I was younger and I use to judge them and laugh at them and think, "wow fat HELLL fat!! How can you let yourself go that way? They are terrible, dirty etc " Then something just struck me, it didn't take time to realize it, it just was an immediate realization, Hey what are you doing, you don't know these peoples struggles, don't you realize that they love and are loved, their struggle is outward, it is the inward that can secretly tear us apart because no one else notices.

This understanding extended to everything, it was an all encompassing change. I do not even give a second glance to handicapped, fat, or any people that stand out in public. I simply do not judge people and it is now a natural reaction. Sure I catch myself entertaining a second glance at people that stand out in public, but I try not to do so for my entertainment (though its impossible sometimes!!). The fact is that I might have a part of my old mind, telling me, Oh how sweet it tastes in your mouth to make fun of these people, to think evil about them, but I know it is very bitter in the stomach, it will ruin me inwardly. So I might not necessarily follow Gods word but I certainly uphold it and think, damn it I am falling away from what is right again.

There are so many more things in my life which runs this course of immediate realization. And they all enhance the way in which I treat people in person and how I deal with the information I get from this world. But they are not complete changes for me, and this is what I struggle with. My mind still has parts of the old thinking always, we can never gain amnesia from it, but God lets us put a stopper on this, it is still there, but it doesn't spew out of us, it is controlled.

That is why God for me is so important. You simply cannot answer to yourself. I find relating myself to a perfect model lets us aim for the stars, instead of aiming for the trees and hitting ourselves in the foot.

[prometheus]

lostinidlewonder, I remember debates I had with you here long ago. I remember the utter rubbish arguments. It was ludicrous. It's no sense arguing with this person. He is far worse than Pianistimo when quality of arguments is concerned.

Both of you are terrible, terrible at being reasonable. There is no other way to say it.


Are you threatening me with violence or something? What would suddenly change my judgment?

I don't understand the whole point anyway. If you post all these offensive things on this forum, it's ok. But when I point out the obvious I am a coward because I do it also on this forum? Should I have went to your house and told you what advice I am going to give the other people on the forum? What hypocrisy.

[lostinidlewonder]

...Are you threatening me with violence or something? What would suddenly change my judgment?

Your paranoia is disturbing. I was merely wondering if you are like this in front of people who have a different opinion to you, if so you must surround yourself with friends who only think the same as you (or shut up their mouths when they disagree with you). That is my point. I don't want to fight, I would just like to know if you would talk to me like this if you where actually in front of me, or if what you say is just flaming like people do online all the time.

I have not put down anyone, yet I get people putting me down, I'll let you to continue casting your stones because i cast none, and people can see your attacks, if they agree with you at least you are weeding out the people I want to talk with, anyone who agrees with your abusive opinion of me or whoever else are pretty simple minded and cannot contribute to the discussion anyway. We are not discussing the person, we are discussing the issue.

Ok any personal attacks on my character I will ignore from now on, my stance is made clear on its negative effects on the community and we really shouldn't be wasting time discussing it. It does however highlight how sensitive we can get on the topic of God which is important to always appreciate. I know people are angry over God sometimes, and it is hard to put up with talk you hate to read about. There is a simple thing to do, just don't read threads on the topic until you can control yourself, unless you like to be angry.

To me this is just a discussion forum, I have zero negative feelings to peoples negativity towards me, it means nothing because I don't know you, you mean nothing to my life directly, so its like water on a ducks back. I am just confounded that some people can talk like this and think that they are doing something right.

[thalberg]

Your paranoia is disturbing. I was merely wondering if you are like this in front of people who have a different opinion to you, if so you must surround yourself with friends who only think the same as you (or shut up their mouths when they disagree with you).

My experience with him has been the same in several threads.  I suggest you disengage with this one.

[thalbergmad]

To me when drugged out street trash rob a Service station it is most of the times very violent. It is extremely strange for a robber to say to the person they are attacking, "Don't worry we won't hurt you." because it is the fear they use to control the situation.

Not strange if they get what they want. The assertion that God intervened is fanciful to say the least.

I hope you prayed for the drugged up street trash as well.

Thal

[mike_lang]

I hope you prayed for the drugged up street trash as well.

Amen.

[thalberg]

Lostinidlewonder, I'm sorry but your examples of God's guidance are exactly as I expected.

All the things you mentioned are inevitable and happen anyway.  We all think and talk.  We all respond to circumstances.  We all hope our friends will not get hurt. 

You win no matter what.  If your words and thoughts are good, then they're God's, if not, they're yours.  If circumstances lead you to the right, then that's where God wants you to go.  If they lead you to the left, then God wants you to go there instead.  If you pray for a good outcome and it happens then God said yes, and if it doesn't happen then God said no but He must have a purpose. 

To you there is only one outcome-- God is guiding you. 

I just wish there were some example or testimony that had more to offer than just a re-labeling of life's events.


P.S.  The thieves had more than enough motive to tell your friends "we won't hurt you."  People who are reassured of their physical safety will be much less likely to retaliate in panic.

[tds]

..., unless you like to be angry.

sorta cool..

[thalbergmad]

A Jewish man goes into the synagogue and prays. "O Lord, you know the mess I'm in, please let me win the lottery.

"The next week, he's back again, and this time he's complaining. "O Lord, didn't you hear my prayer last week? I'll lose everything I hold dear unless I win the lottery."

The third week, he comes back to the synagogue, and this time he's desperate. "O Lord, this is the third time I've prayed to you to let me win the lottery! I ask and I plead and still you don't help me!"

Suddenly a booming voice sounds from heaven. "Benny, Benny, be reasonable. Meet me half way. Buy a bloody ticket!"

Thal

[lostinidlewonder]

...You win no matter what.  If your words and thoughts are good, then they're God's, if not, they're yours.  If circumstances lead you to the right, then that's where God wants you to go.  If they lead you to the left, then God wants you to go there instead.  If you pray for a good outcome and it happens then God said yes, and if it doesn't happen then God said no but He must have a purpose. 

To you there is only one outcome-- God is guiding you. 

There is a difference (in my mind at least) between happy thoughts and prayer. When you pray you do not do so with an outcome in mind, this would reduce your sincerity. I accept that what happens must happen, I accept that good people die and the evil prosper and live such effortless lives.

My prayer does not hope to change the future nor gain me anything physically. This is what can be confusing. I do not pray to gain something or to fix something up, I pray to say, God this is happening now, remove all traps and distractions, let the path be clear, let me see what is right, let what is right happen. It is begging to stay on the right path. It's me begging, do not let injustice happen, but if it does let me see through the thick of it.

Prayer tries to be selfless. That is the power of real prayer. Do not lob a prayer grenade and then try to look at its after effects. There is no point, it is selfish thinking, to say, look what I can cause.

There is a verification you get from praying, that is an immediate psychological relief. It is like releasing the mental, physical pressure. What a powerful thing this is for us to keep sane mind when we feel hopeless and disturbed. You can certainly ask clinical psychologists about the data correlating a reduction of mental problems to a faith in a God. Often this is what you need from the prayer, it helps you stay calm so that you do not make actions in anger or other negative emotions (as we do EVERY DAY). So knowing that God exists in my life can be measured by the amount I can control myself, if I didn't have God I would very a very aggressive hateful person. I can feel these feelings suppressed when I consider my life on Gods terms...........

[general disarray]

. . . if I didn't have God I would very a very aggressive hateful person. I can feel these feelings suppressed when I consider my life on Gods terms...........

"But you are, Blanche!  You ARE in that chair!"

Sorry, couldn't resist.  You bring out the Bette Davis in most of us on this topic! 

But, in truth, what you say about prayer is quite insightful.  For the first time, on this topic, I don't want to jump through the screen and pound your head.

Bless you, my son.

[tds]

Bless you, my son.

lolol

[piano_ant]

I find it so strange that most people in religious debates are so extreme.

It's either, GOD AND JESUS or HUMANS ARE MACHINES AND  RANDOM LUMPS OF sh*t.

What I don't get is why no one considers it possible that the essence of life and the univeverse and god is something that we simply cannot understand.

Like the light we can't see, or the sounds we can't hear, it is a frequency of reality we cannot perceive.

I feel that when everyone dies the same thing happens.

From bible thumpers, to suicide bombers to atheists...They die and realize , "No f*cking way, it's more complicated and simple than we could have ever imagined."

[maul]

Finally, someone with some sense. respect

[lostinidlewonder]

I find it so strange that most people in religious debates are so extreme.

It's either, GOD AND JESUS or HUMANS ARE MACHINES AND  RANDOM LUMPS OF sh*t.

I hardly think that this is an extreme stance. I prefer those who are either for or against, at least this way people can express their opinion more clearly and not leave things shrouded in mystery.

I think it is fine to stand in the middle and consider things, but to remain in the middle simply means you have made no decision and no effort to make your decision. It is like a boat is sinking, there are those who jump on life boats and get off, there are others who want to go down with the ship and then there are those who think, should i jump off or stay on? Im not sure so I'll just wait till something happens. In that case you make no choices and have no control over your direction.

So praises to those who stand in the middle is just illogical if you think this is a logical way to live your life and remain within.

What I don't get is why no one considers it possible that the essence of life and the univeverse and god is something that we simply cannot understand.

This is admitting that you can never have a relationship with God, which I am afraid is not the case. You may not understand God completely and there is no need to, God even describes himself as mysterious, but this does not mean that we cannot have a relationship and start to understand facets of God. Certainly it is a life long search, you don't read this kind of things in a book and all of a sudden go, "AHHHH I see now."

I feel that when everyone dies the same thing happens.

The experience of death is the same. The physical world we live in can be imperfect, the wicked and evil prosper, the good suffer and die. So if you think that the evil die and their outcome in death is the same as the good, then this whole world is ridiculous. Why don't we all be evil and live materialistically wealthy, quash our enemies, laugh at the weak, only surround yourself with those who will increase your physical wealth.

From bible thumpers, to suicide bombers to atheists...They die and realize , "No f*cking way, it's more complicated and simple than we could have ever imagined."

More complicated and simple? This makes no sense. This is almost saying, those who have a complicated view on death actually need to simplify, those who have a simplified view need to become more complicated in approach, so please tell us, what do you think the answer is? What is the inbetween to be? It seems that you are encouraging vagueness of approach when it comes to Death, or God. That if you think you are researching in the right place you are not, I am sorry but this type of thinking hasn't much basis that is, you will at the end of your life know no more than what you did when you started thinking this way. It is a dead end.

But, in truth, what you say about prayer is quite insightful.  For the first time, on this topic, I don't want to jump through the screen and pound your head.

there is a long line for my head to be pounded. But its usually because people don't like to be confronted to consider things in a different light. Who is to say not anyone else does it! When we are challenge we can get defensive, annoyed, try to put up the resistance, I've found personally, yield to everything, it will increase your wisdom and you will be able to filter all that you read and appreciate it even though you might not agree with it. It might at least change an extreme view on things. You find that when you find God you find a balancing answer to your life. Following God isn't all rose and bunny rabbit niceties, a lot of it is hard work, suffering as well.

Bless you, my son.

Did I sneeze mum?

[piano_ant]

I hardly think that this is an extreme stance. I prefer those who are either for or against, at least this way people can express their opinion more clearly and not leave things shrouded in mystery.

I think it is fine to stand in the middle and consider things, but to remain in the middle simply means you have made no decision and no effort to make your decision. It is like a boat is sinking, there are those who jump on life boats and get off, there are others who want to go down with the ship and then there are those who think, should i jump off or stay on? Im not sure so I'll just wait till something happens. In that case you make no choices and have no control over your direction.

So praises to those who stand in the middle is just illogical if you think this is a logical way to live your life and remain within.

No, no, no. This is exactly the problem. Why do you have to have a simple answer? What world do you live in where there is a clear right and wrong and clear good or bad? It doesn't exist! WHERE DO YOU GET THIS STUFF. Are you six? This isn't middle ground, it's a completely different idea. Sorry, if it's an idea you have no argument against, but scientifically, can't that mean it's a good start?

This is admitting that you can never have a relationship with God, which I am afraid is not the case. You may not understand God completely and there is no need to, God even describes himself as mysterious, but this does not mean that we cannot have a relationship and start to understand facets of God. Certainly it is a life long search, you don't read this kind of things in a book and all of a sudden go, "AHHHH I see now."

No it isn't. I never said that you couldn't have a relationship with god.  This is what  I never understand. People confined to specific religious beliefs constantly contradict themselves with their own checks and balances. If you say we don't fully understand god, which I agree with, then why does god have to be what you believe it is? We can't understand it. Dogs don't understand vacuums. We don't understand the beautiful architecture of the reality we thrive in unless we put it in simple and likely completely worng terms, like the bible. I have a relationship with god, not in the being, but the power and force that makes everything possible.

The experience of death is the same. The physical world we live in can be imperfect, the wicked and evil prosper, the good suffer and die. So if you think that the evil die and their outcome in death is the same as the good, then this whole world is ridiculous. Why don't we all be evil and live materialistically wealthy, quash our enemies, laugh at the weak, only surround yourself with those who will increase your physical wealth.

Why do you think this is impossible to believe?  IT HAPPENS ALL THE TIME IT IS HAPPENING NOW. Death is a higher form of life, and I sincerely believe that. We don't "go" anywhere, we just grow. The same thing happens to everybody. In theory, if everyone were to fully believe in this, we would have no reason to kill or be bad because, in the end what is gained is nothing. Yet also, in theory, If everyone were to believe in heaven or hell, it would be a perfect world too wouldn't it? But not everyone does, so the world we see continues as it is.

More complicated and simple? This makes no sense. This is almost saying, those who have a complicated view on death actually need to simplify, those who have a simplified view need to become more complicated in approach, so please tell us, what do you think the answer is? What is the inbetween to be? It seems that you are encouraging vagueness of approach when it comes to Death, or God. That if you think you are researching in the right place you are not, I am sorry but this type of thinking hasn't much basis that is, you will at the end of your life know no more than what you did when you started thinking this way. It is a dead end.

It is a dead end for those stuck to two thousand plus year old ways of thinking. We as humans use our brains. Our brains cannot understand everything. When we 'die' we actually 'live' in a way we don't understand. It's Simple as that. Yet, the process is more complicated than anything we can understand in our state, because I believe in the soul and the spirit and how it functions is as elusive and mysterious as the origins of the universe itself. Don't try to explain it, it defies all human logic and we just cannot comprehend it. How can you not see this concept?

A dog sees a vacuum as a vacuum? NO. It's something loud, scary and unmeasurable leagues above its physical level of understanding. Same thing with us and god, the purpose of life, and all other things we attempt to explain with religion.

I respect your beliefs. But you have to recognize that after so many thousands of years of human thinking, we are still totally in the dark about all of these things, and that signifies the total inability we have to completely understand it.

[pelajarpiano]

Why are there many people believe that God isn't exist?

In the fact, God is exist. The proof is u can see the world with many great creatures..