Christianity - Plague of the MIND

[chopininov]

Why are there many people believe that God isn't exist?

In the fact, God is exist. The proof is u can see the world with many great creatures..

Ya, you're right. Forget the other 948 posts in this thread.

[gyzzzmo]

Why are there many people believe that God isn't exist?

In the fact, God is exist. The proof is u can see the world with many great creatures..

Or those great critters are caused by evolution, wich (in contrary to the bible) has alot of proof.

[Essyne]

Okay. I believe in a Higher Being. . . I think  .

lol, but truly, I think that the Beauty of any religion is that it gives its followers something to believe in and to hold onto when all else is seemingly "lost." That's a noble and worthy thing. Of course, people find the need to dictate everyone else's Lives and Thoughts and Beliefs, but that's not the point of my post (I don't think . . . lol . . . there's a point SOMEWHERE in here  ). I think that the Christian God is the same as the Muslim God is the same as any OTHER God!! If there is truly one God, then He/She is the "all-knowing," right?! Wouldn't the all-knowing find different ways to appeal to all of his/her minions?! (haha, minions  ).

Personally, I think that if the Higher Being forementioned DOES prove to exist, then good for Him/Her. If I am one of His/Her creations, then, honestly, (S)He created me, and after I leave my physical body behind, then what's going to happen is going to happen. It's inevitable. What I'm trying to say is that people who cling to their "Holy Books" of any kind need something tangible in their Life, and that tangible item is provided for them. Good. That's fine. They are happy. It doesn't effect MY personal Happiness in the least bit. So they should save their own darn souls and let me worry about my own (Even though I think the idea that WE could save OUR OWN Souls is the idea of an egotist, but it's irrelevant). MY Truth is that any Being that may or may not have created me was generous enough to create me, and if He/She destroys me, then I'm just back where I was at the Beginning.

 ^  Lol - have fun wading through that, pelajarpiano et al  !

[popdog]

So your Mum is God?

[Essyne]

I'm not sure how to respond to that.

[popdog]

You kept referring to the being that created you - hence my first thought ran to your mother.   I'm not being serious...

[Essyne]

I'm not being serious...

Nor was I - I should've inserted some emoticon. . . but w/e. . .

[lostinidlewonder]

No, no, no. This is exactly the problem. Why do you have to have a simple answer? What world do you live in where there is a clear right and wrong and clear good or bad? It doesn't exist!....

Jesus even said, who isn't with me is against me. So your stance that you cannot find out the knowledge to make a decision about Christianity is wrong and in my mind it is an excuse. You either say YES or NO, or I am unsure and still looking. You CANNOT say, there is not enough information to make a decision. This is real life. You try to run a business and see how far you go staying in the middle of indecision, you will crash and burn and fail.

......If you say we don't fully understand god, which I agree with, then why does god have to be what you believe it is?

Here lies a misunderstanding on your behalf. We may not know what God is fully, but what he says and what he does is clear and open for all to see. The word of God in the Bible is not mysterious, it is plain, open for all to see, nothing is underhanded or secret, however God himself is very mysterious. So if you believe you can worship God only if you can know what he is, then you are going about it the wrong way. You must look at the Word of God, this is his direction to us and is not mysterious at all.

We don't understand the beautiful architecture of the reality we thrive in unless we put it in simple and likely completely worng terms, like the bible.

This makes zero sense in my head. What is the Architecture of Reality that we thrive in? How is the bibles concept of living life simple and completely wrong?
 

Death is a higher form of life, and I sincerely believe that. We don't "go" anywhere, we just grow.

We don't go anywhere just grow? Where do we grow? In nothingness? So you are going against a major principle of Physics, beleiving that energy can be destroyed. When we die we certainly go somewhere, but we do not have any observation in death so it really is irrelevant to postulate where we go when we die. We are interested in life now, not our death and what happens after that. God is after all the God of Life.

It is a dead end for those stuck to two thousand plus year old ways of thinking. We as humans use our brains.

This argument that 2000 years + of thinking is wrong is very amusing. There has been 2000 years to disprove it all and this has not happened. In fact the concepts have grown in strength and their applications have been tested for so many generations and proven to benefit the living life. In fact I am more worried about concepts which are new, say 200 years old, and people are happy to believe that with all their heart.

Our brains cannot understand everything. When we 'die' we actually 'live' in a way we don't understand. It's Simple as that.

Your imagination on what happens in death has no real relevance to me because it does not help me live my life now. I do not even consider what happens in my death because I am occupied living my life now and too busy to think about what I will have no control over when it happens.

So even though the experience of death is mysterious, how we prepare for death is important. How to live your life now so that before your death you can be at ease and know you will be kept safe. Christians have no fear in death, they know they are returning to our new home with our 2nd life. We know all will have this 2nd life, the good for a 2nd life of eternal joy, the evil a 2nd life to be taken away from them permanently. Do not ask me who will be saved because I DO NOT KNOW. If any Christian tell you they are lying and are of the wrong spirit. The judgment is left to God. I can imagine those that will not be saved will be singing, "I DID IT MY WAY" Frank Sinatra.

Yet, the process is more complicated than anything we can understand in our state, because I believe in the soul and the spirit and how it functions is as elusive and mysterious as the origins of the universe itself. Don't try to explain it, it defies all human logic and we just cannot comprehend it.

Are you talking about the process of death? I never tried to explain this. Death does not interest me because in death you have no control over your actions. You have only that free will and choice when you are alive. You seem to want to think I am explaining the mystery of death, which I assure you I have not even tried here.

I respect your beliefs. But you have to recognize that after so many thousands of years of human thinking, we are still totally in the dark about all of these things, and that signifies the total inability we have to completely understand it.

I don't understand what you want. You want to have a blueprint which shows you what happens in life and death and what happens after death. I do not see the relevance to live your life on terms of what happens in your death. To me it seems like it is missing the point. So you are putting these ideas about the mystery of DEATH to disprove Christian standpoints on the way we live our LIFE. To me this is a flimsy and irrelevant argument, unless you want to direct yourself in your response.

[lostinidlewonder]

I think that the Beauty of any religion is that it gives its followers something to believe in and to hold onto when all else is seemingly "lost." That's a noble and worthy thing.

This hits on a key point of following God. Admitting that we are lost sheep and God is our sheppard. It has nothing to do with other humans controlling us since our relationship with God is first a private personal one, no other human in between us.

I think that the Christian God is the same as the Muslim God is the same as any OTHER God!! If there is truly one God, then He/She is the "all-knowing," right?! Wouldn't the all-knowing find different ways to appeal to all of his/her minions?! (haha, minions  ).

You see the Devil is not all wrong. If all his deceit was evil and wrong, no one would be fooled. I think God is the same in all religions, his omnipotence, Goodness etc.  Each religion talks about good morals etc it was important to develop the worlds concept of morality. We where still having slaves no more than 100 years ago, and still today we treat some people like lesser beings!

However the extra bits that the religion talks about about living our LIFE now, highlights their real worth and where their inspiration really comes from. NO religion tries to explain God, all of them aim to give us a way to Live our life and that is how you identify one from the other.

Christianity is the only religion where all followers admit that they are far away from Gods grace. The rest are just rule following religions, where your worth is determined by what you do and how well you do it, it has no room for the weak like Christianity. All True Christians will admit that they deserve death for how they have lived their life, one that does not is of an anti-Christian, arrogant spirit. We however hide behind the sacrifice of the Cross, that is our only hope.

Because we are so submissive we are actually extremely strong against the accusing spirit of this world which ruins a lot of lives. We do not cast stones, we do not judge, we do not add to the backstabbing, talking behind backs, we do everything in front of everyone, open for all to see.

However you find many Christian Churches have this rubbish going on. All this covert secretivity, all this talking behind backs and back stabbings. It is the devil working within the church. Afterall the devil is a  master of mixing what is right with what is wrong. Christianity of all religions has more contortions than any other religion, the devil certainly is working hard to confuse the true spirit of Christianity, which is quite simple. Love one another, do not judge, keep everything in the open, do not hate those for questioning the way you live your life with scripture because you are not answering to them but to God, and really admitting that we all are far from Gods grace and sin against him all the time, some chrisitian have this air of arrogance around them that they are sin free and perfect, it is a real joke.

[chopininov]

I agree with the sheep part.

[piano_ant]

Lostinidlewonder:

I'm not going to argue this much further because it takes too much time and proves to be a never ending battle (has been for centuries).

The simple fact that you cannot accept that there are more possible answers to the question completely justifies why you can't step outside your box. Christianity is a meager attempt to explain life and that is that. DONE. The church has used its ideas for selfish profit more times than could ever be accounted for.

Christianity and religion is good for a lot of people. It can even save some. But it doesn't answer questions any better than any other religion.

Religion is essential to keep human beings from turning to animals but, completely hinders the human spirit.

I don't follow christian beliefs. I follow my own and use them to come closer to the truth of my life and the life of the human race as a whole. And through this i see no benifit of being anything but good, so I would say my 'religion' benifits me and the world pretty well.

I still don't think you can wrap your head around the whole death thing, becuase you are so stuck in your way of thinking. We live not only biologically, but in a way that we just DONT KNOW. It could be the spirit or sould or whatever you want to call it, but when we shed our bodies and grow up. IT has nothing to do with physics because physics doesn't attempt to explain this. WE INVENTED PHYSICS and the laws. It wasn't just there in the way we see it.

Disproving things? Are you telling me we haven't disproven the earth is more than 6000 years old? There were creatures here before man? We don't come from someone's rib?
And that DEFYING THE LAWS OF PHYSICS would probably involve someone walking on water?

Get out of you narrow box and start seeing the world beyond a book. 

As far as disproven...
IT HASN'T EVEN BEEN DISPROVEN that we aren't the product of some other "people" that visited here thousands of years ago. And still does. Look on youtube for some credible people who may know the truth about all that stuff.
What about the hundreds of people who have come forward to say that there are truths that would blow your mind if you only knew.

These people are usually called crazy. Like Einstein, or better yet, Galileo.

The human race is shameful. We cling so hard to the things that separate us, like christianity, intead of seeking out answers that lead to truth and unity. I am HUMAN religion. One day, maybe we will be spiritual enough to see the truth behind all the sh*t that we think matters, but really is nothing. Including those stupid books known as Bible and Qur'an. These stupid books have killed more people than the *** plague. 





 

[pelajarpiano]

I think that the Christian God is the same as the Muslim God is the same as any OTHER God!! If there is truly one God, then He/She is the "all-knowing," right?! Wouldn't the all-knowing find different ways to appeal to all of his/her minions?! (haha, minions  ).

well, let's think.If Christian God same as the Muslim God and same as the any other god, the God will say the same thing in the Bible,Quran,and other book that claim the book is the word of God. But in the fact, what the word in the Bible, Quran,etc  it's different each other.They say different thing..Bible say that Jesus is the only way to the truth(John 14:6), which the other book didn't say like that. Well, you can think like this.There are five book that claim they are word of god.The book is A, B, C, D,and E.  A say "that", B say "this", C say "other thing", etc. It's imposible to the one God to say differently. If God which say in A same as God which say in B and same as any other god which say in C,D,E , the A,B,C,D,and E must say the same thing.
So Christian God and any other god is not same. It's different.


^^it's fun if we can talk more...

[Essyne]

But man WROTE the Bible, Qu'ran, etc. . . and man is subject to his own perceptions. I'm not arguing that god didn't speak to man directly. In the end, I wasn't conciously there at the time (that I can remember in this physical lifetime), so I can't say either way if the prophets WERE spoken to. All that I can tell you is that different men formed the different religions for their own personal reasons. Studies have proven that if 20 people are in a room and they hear the same oration (a mere sentence or paragraph even), then the group will "hear" 20 different things. When each person is asked to get up in front of the group and relay the information that tehy just heard, then it will be skewed from one person to the next. That's the problem with "Holy" books. . . they're all secondary sources, and they're all collections of man's individual interpretations. We could even get into Constantine the Great and other men throughout history who have DELIBERATELY altered the "Sacred" texts to further their power and influence (eliminating things like the Nag Hammadi), but that's already been mentioned in this thread. In the end, it's a power struggle. That's just the harsh reality of mankind.

[Essyne]

Religion is essential to keep human beings from turning to animals but, completely hinders the human spirit.

I've actually heard people say this before. . . Personally, I think we'd all be better off if we'd just TURN INTO animals already and live our lives as Nature intended. Get off all of our high horses and stop trying to control the Beauty and Mysticism of Life as it is naturally meant to be. But that's mankind for you.

As far as disproven...
IT HASN'T EVEN BEEN DISPROVEN that we aren't the product of some other "people" that visited here thousands of years ago. And still does. Look on youtube for some credible people who may know the truth about all that stuff.
What about the hundreds of people who have come forward to say that there are truths that would blow your mind if you only knew.

I want to know your Mind, piano_ant. . . I know ceratain Truths in my heart, and am eagerly and whole-heartedly anticipating when they come to light. Truly. But, the majority is not ready yet. Soon though, I can feel it .

One day, maybe we will be spiritual enough to see the truth behind all the sh*t that we think matters, but really is nothing.

Yes - this is something that I stress in my personal Beliefs - There is a huge difference in being Religious and being Spiritual. The former is more concerned with the physical aspects of Life and the repercussions of one's actions, while the latter is always seeking the Enlightenment of one's Spirit.

Neither one is bad, though. I think that THAT is another problem with Religious/Philisophical debate. . . Close-mindedness. Each and every soul is on it's own path. Debate and Communication is meant to advance the Enlightenment process, not to demean the individual Spirit and hinder its progress. But, with that said, when one gives another a new, open piece of mind, the latter should accept it willingly. Knowledge-seeking is key - without making an effort to reach Enlightenment, one can never truly obtain it.

[lostinidlewonder]

Lostinidlewonder:

I'm not going to argue this much further because it takes too much time and proves to be a never ending battle (has been for centuries).

Discussing God or Christ is a very difficult subject when you talk about it with people who are against Christianity. Of course like I have constantly repeated through this thread, I am not here to belittle or battle with people, merely discuss our stances, challenge one another, but all in a good spirit of friendship and learning. I certainly learn a lot from comments here even though I do not think like this, it is always good to know how other people work.

The simple fact that you cannot accept that there are more possible answers to the question completely justifies why you can't step outside your box. Christianity is a meager attempt to explain life and that is that. DONE. The church has used its ideas for selfish profit more times than could ever be accounted for.

I merely defend against the statements that following Christianity is foolish. I merely talk about the WORD (bible) not the institutions which have corrupted the spread of it. So your talk about selfish profit certainly exists with those commercializing Christianity, whether this reflects the true nature of Christianity is not really left up to debate, it is separate from the worship of Christ and God. Just because there are extremist terrorists who blow up people in the name of the Koran does not imply one iota that all Muslims are like this and thus the worth of the Koran is reduced. Do not look at how other humans have behaved or interpreted their religion, you look at what the source of their religion talks about, their Book.

Christianity and religion is good for a lot of people. It can even save some. But it doesn't answer questions any better than any other religion.

Religion is essential to keep human beings from turning to animals but, completely hinders the human spirit.

All religions except Christianity are based on your deeds and works in life for your salvation. Christianity is not like this at all and is what separates and elevates it above all other options.

I don't follow christian beliefs. I follow my own and use them to come closer to the truth of my life and the life of the human race as a whole. And through this i see no benifit of being anything but good, so I would say my 'religion' benifits me and the world pretty well.

I never said that if you are not Christian you are not a good person or a lesser person. I certainly do not surround myself with only Christians, many of my friends, family are different religions, agnostic and even atheists. But when it comes to decisions regarding worshiping a God, they certainly have no idea or interest in the subject. Thus their critique on how I worship God does not really stand up to much because they are not interested in the subject to start with and do not have much content except opinion and their own feelings to work with.

I still don't think you can wrap your head around the whole death thing, becuase you are so stuck in your way of thinking. We live not only biologically, but in a way that we just DONT KNOW.

I can't wrap my head around death? You are the one saying WE CANNOT KNOW. So your opinion is zero on the topic, it is sitting on the fence, it is not making a decision. So you are wrong without even trying, you are not even putting an answer on the sheet, so you will get a cross no matter what.

If you say we do not know, then this means that you have exhausted all avenues of knowledge to find the answer. I never trust anyone who says YOU CANNOT EVER KNOW, because it doesn't mean anything. It is an anti-thesis trying to stop us from finding knowledge. That is how I see it. So you have no stance yet you say the Christian approach is wrong, you have no way to say why, you just say it cannot be known so you must be wrong. I can say we are certainly more correct than the person who says there is no answer.

WE INVENTED PHYSICS and the laws.

Because we also invented maths and 1+1=2 does that mean its not true and not in action in the reality we live in now? You say when we die nothing happens, which means energy is destroyed which is not even the stance of the scientists or the religious. So you are in a minority group if you think when we die nothing happens to our energy and we are not converted into something else.

Disproving things? Are you telling me we haven't disproven the earth is more than 6000 years old?

The bible never states this fact. The length of time undergone in Genesis is not clear and really are very unimportant.

...Look on youtube for some credible people who may know the truth about all that stuff.

You are joking right? Youtube as a source for religious study? LMAO


I wont bother quoting anything else. Your words are filled with some kind of annoyance and hatred for what I have said. You are accusing me, calling me things, tagging me, suggesting I am blind to everything else, suggesting that I do not listen to other people views etc etc. Well if that is so quote my words which highlight this fact. Otherwise I am sorry you are only fooling stupid people.

Your paranoid thinking that Christianity is a sham and ONE DAY it will be uncovered for all to see just feeds your fantasy that you are on the right track and the rest are wrong. That you have some secret knowledge and insider view on things. This is the evil spirit confusing you for sure, all true knowledge is open for all to see, nothing is underhanded and hidden from others.

Personally, I think we'd all be better off if we'd just TURN INTO animals already and live our lives as Nature intended. Get off all of our high horses and stop trying to control the Beauty and Mysticism of Life as it is naturally meant to be. But that's mankind for you.

Humans are better than animals, we have free will which separates us from being bastards to everything an just living off survival of the fittest instinct. What is the Beauty and Mysticism of life that is being strangled by our attempts to better ourselves and control ourselves? It seems like chaos and hell to me if people just reacted without thought about their actions and the morality behind it (even though we tend to do it every day anyway).

I know ceratain Truths in my heart, and am eagerly and whole-heartedly anticipating when they come to light. Truly. But, the majority is not ready yet. Soon though, I can feel it .

To me this highlights some fantasy of some secret knowledge or hidden truth that no one else knows about. These type of thinkings exist throughout history but never sprout into anything. Any attempt to live life on human terms and on terms on works, deeds, charity work etc, is all useless and pointless.

Yes - this is something that I stress in my personal Beliefs - There is a huge difference in being Religious and being Spiritual. The former is more concerned with the physical aspects of Life and the repercussions of one's actions, while the latter is always seeking the Enlightenment of one's Spirit.

What is this spirit? I hear a lot of people talking about enlightenment of their spirit but what does that actually mean on your terms? Some people just think of it as some magical hidden force which extenuates from the physical world, universe etc. This really has no knowledge, it's just saying, magic cloud which exists in me that connects me to the universe. OO spooky, mysterious!! But what worth has it really got? How does it direct your life? On what terms is it based upon, human or a higher power? What is the higher power? What is your relationship like with this higher power?

I agree with the sheep part.

This doesn't highlight exactly what you mean. HOW you agree with it is important. Do you agree with it because you understand the Christian's stand point on Christ's salvation for us, how each and every one of us will hide behind the cross on the day of judgement, or do you agree with it because you think all Christians are brainwashed and think the same way? The latter I would love to see why you think this way if you think this way.

[piano_ant]

Sorry Lostinidlewonder,

             I don't think the internet is a very effective medium for argument. I wasn't attacking you or 'hating' no any of your statements, I was simply trying to argue them, but I don't think it's easy to articulate and I may have come off sounding brash. My apologies!

I understand your point of view, I appreciate and respect your relationship with your god. Understand I don't attempt to make my point of view out to be more right or wrong or more enlightening than anyone else's, but to me, there are certain truth's that major religions simply ignore or don't acknowledge, simply becuase it challenges their existence.

The world is not easily explainable, and concrete human language and thoughts and ideas are simply to um...simple...to adequately explain what religion attempts to explain. if that makes sense....reality just is. It doesn't conform to our way of thinking or perception. and I mean this in raw form (five senses, emotions, etc.)

I agree with your idea of commercialization. religion is a mass media endeavor, and while I think there is truth behind the money, It is constantly hurting and helping and I think there are more ways to help and less ways to hurt.

As far as the youtube thing goes, I wasn't really talking about religion, But I'm actually surprised, people wouldn't think to talk information on youtube more seriously. If credible background is given, Youtube is one of the few sources available that are largely tamper-proof and presented directly form the source, as opposed to ALL religious, historical and media texts, which are undoubtedly filtered, tampered and molded into what we know as History! And for one thing, fast, unfiltered media is one of the biggest reasons there is such a break from tradition today, because more of what we see and hear is so quick to our eyes and ears, there is not time for it to be changed.

On the whole I was hinting at the possibility of alien life and our planet's possible history with extra-terrestrials. I have a few in family stories that are interesting, and seeing credible sources come forward with some very hard to deny evidence leaves much food for thought, if not more. Essyne, I think you know what I'm talking about 

But I do enjoy these discussions, keep me from being bored on a too hot day!

[horizontal]

Why are there many people believe that God isn't exist?

In the fact, God is exist. The proof is u can see the world with many great creatures..

If this were 4chan, I would give you 0/10 for trolling.

However, given that this is piano street, I must award you 1/10 for seriousness. This is, in a way, rather more depressing.

[pelajarpiano]

If this were 4chan, I would give you 0/10 for trolling.

However, given that this is piano street, I must award you 1/10 for seriousness. This is, in a way, rather more depressing.

Thanks for ur comment. The statement that I write is a simple statement that many people have forgot..
many people say "Where is God?" although they can see the nature, which proof the existence of God.
many scientist(not all) say that they know where this nature came, but it's still a theory until now.


Once thanks for your comment. i appreciate it...

[tds]

Thanks for ur comment.

Once thanks for your comment. i appreciate it...

s/he didn't give you any compliment, if i am not mistaken..

[michel dvorsky]

“The nearer the Church the further from God” - Lancelot Andrewes

[pies]

One should not go into churches if one wishes to breathe PURE air.

[pelajarpiano]

s/he didn't give you any compliment, if i am not mistaken..

Hhahahaha..I know that. Actually, i give thanks coz s/he want to comment my post.

[tds]

you are surely such a grateful person.

[morningstar]

Wow. I had no idea that so many people in this forum were so openly derogatory about Christianity. Is it so terrible to believe in the possibility of something higher than ourselves? I came from a background that was decidedly not Christian and saw that the people at the church I tried going to had better quality of life and were better people than most of the non-religious population. If this is so then is Christianity truly that bad a thing?

[pianowolfi]

I think discussing religion on this forum is a rather annoying thing. Almost nobody seems to know what they're actually talking about. I stopped participating in this sort of activities long ago.

[morningstar]

I think discussing religion on this forum is a rather annoying thing. Almost nobody seems to know what they're actually talking about. I stopped participating in this sort of activities long ago.

Mmmm. Sorry I just kind of saw it while looking back in old threads.

[pianowolfi]

Mmmm. Sorry I just kind of saw it while looking back in old threads.

Lol no need to apologize, just be prepared for flaming and useless debates

[morningstar]

Lol no need to apologize, just be prepared for flaming and useless debates

Oh I'm ready. 'Twas getting a bit sedentary here anyway

[thalbergmad]

If this is so then is Christianity truly that bad a thing?

As long as it is not complusory and taken to extremes.

As you will see from previous posts, there are some Christians on this site that are open minded people educated people, that are a pleasure to debate with.

Then there is Pianistimo who gives Christianity a bad name.

Thal

[thalbergmad]

I came from a background that was decidedly not Christian and saw that the people at the church I tried going to had better quality of life and were better people than most of the non-religious population.

I wonder if perhaps they were nice people because they had a better quality of life.

Its easy being a Christian if you are "comfortable".

Its the dying, starving and hopelessly crippled that might have difficulty with it.

Thal

[morningstar]

I wonder if perhaps they were nice people because they had a better quality of life.

Its easy being a Christian if you are "comfortable".

Its the dying, starving and hopelessly crippled that might have difficulty with it.

Thal

I spoke to some of the people who had also come from bad backgrounds and they said their lives had improved heaps. So maybe simply the belief system Christianity employs encourages them to be better people?

[ahinton]

I spoke to some of the people who had also come from bad backgrounds and they said their lives had improved heaps. So maybe simply the belief system Christianity employs encourages them to be better people?

It might do - but then it just as easily might do the opposite. The outward manifestations of Christian practice as seen in the conduct of the various Christian church movements vary enormously; Roman Catholic practice differs considerably from Orthodox practice which is again different to Protestant practice which itself is divided into quite a few subsects from, for example, high Anglicanism to Baptism and there is also a number of what might be termed "fringe" church movements within Christian practice as a whole (such as the Christian Scientists, Mormons, Christadelphians, etc.) as well as widely differing beliefs about matters such as the so-called virgin birth of Jesus Christ, creationism, etc. and many different takes on the reliability and contemporary relevance of the Bible and the extent to which any part of it can be taken literally. If one then also factors in the background of the outsider who approaches Christianity for the first time, it would seem logical that any number of conclusions could be drawn about that belief system and the effects that it may have on some people; there are just far too many possible variables for any one hard and fast conclusion to be credibly drawn.

Thal's assertion that "it's easy being a Christian if you are "comfortable"" is all very well, but only to the extent that it may cover those supposed Christian folk who seem to prefer to prioritise complacency over faith (and such people do undoubtedly exist), but then I'm less than convinced that one could realistically regard such people as committed Christians if their "Christianity" achieves little beyond the provision of some kind of safety net and a set of systems that largely exonerate them from actually having to think.

Best,

Alistair

[morningstar]

Thal's assertion that "it's easy being a Christian if you are "comfortable"" is all very well, but only to the extent that it may cover those supposed Christian folk who seem to prefer to prioritise complacency over faith (and such people do undoubtedly exist), but then I'm less than convinced that one could realistically regard such people as committed Christians if their "Christianity" achieves little beyond the provision of some kind of safety net and a set of systems that largely exonerate them from actually having to think.

Best,

Alistair

To be a faithful, committed christian means you are not really comfortable-at least not until one becomes accustomed to the routines. There are many tasks to perform in a daily Christian routine and-I admit-I am not yet used to them. However I have considered the possibility of a better (and yes, perhaps more comfortable) existence.

[db05]

To be a faithful, committed christian means you are not really comfortable-at least not until one becomes accustomed to the routines. There are many tasks to perform in a daily Christian routine and-I admit-I am not yet used to them. However I have considered the possibility of a better (and yes, perhaps more comfortable) existence.

Same here. College, I quit trying to be a good Christian and following routines. Also I find it really annoying that I always pray or at least cross myself before every meal. Christianity has been forced on me years before I had a mind to think about it. That's what I hate the most.

It's not comfortable at all. The existence of a God is debateable, and blind faith in one, imo is really difficult. Considering the implications... I'd rather not be a Christian.

[cmg]

I'm less than convinced that one could realistically regard such people as committed Christians if their "Christianity" achieves little beyond the provision of some kind of safety net and a set of systems that largely exonerate them from actually having to think.

Best,

Alistair

Amen, if you'll pardon the expression.  "Belief systems" are just that:  choosing to accept as factual that which you cannot logically prove.  Christians like to call this "faith" and, astoundingly, consider this a virtue.

Buddhism, for one, rejects belief and asserts that through the practice of meditation one can answer any spiritual question after all "conditioned intelligence" is dispensed with.  "Conditioned intelligence," by the way, is all belief systems. 

You must begin with nothing to find spiritual truth -- arduous and often depressing at the beginning, which is why most people opt for the pre-packaged, pay-as-you-go religions such as Christianity with its little mindless exercises to distract away all reasonable doubt.   

[ahinton]

Amen, if you'll pardon the expression.  "Belief systems" are just that:  choosing to accept as factual that which you cannot logically prove.  Christians like to call this "faith" and, astoundingly, consider this a virtue.

Buddhism, for one, rejects belief and asserts that through the practice of meditation one can answer any spiritual question after all "conditioned intelligence" is dispensed with.  "Conditioned intelligence," by the way, is all belief systems. 

You must begin with nothing to find spiritual truth -- arduous and often depressing at the beginning, which is why most people opt for the pre-packaged, pay-as-you-go religions such as Christianity with its little mindless exercises to distract away all reasonable doubt.   

Whilst I accept your points in general terms, I feel that I must dissent from you to the extent that, notwithstanding certain people's take on Christianity, there is far more to it than mere "pre-packaged, pay-as-you-go" characteristics and "little mindless exercises to distract" from doubt; were this not the case, there wouldn't be a single thinking Christian on the planet and you and I both know (I assume!) that there are plenty such - there are certainly plenty of Christians who have been christened Thomas!

Best,

Alistair

[cmg]

Whilst I accept your points in general terms, I feel that I must dissent from you to the extent that, notwithstanding certain people's take on Christianity, there is far more to it than mere "pre-packaged, pay-as-you-go" characteristics and "little mindless exercises to distract" from doubt; were this not the case, there wouldn't be a single thinking Christian on the planet and you and I both know (I assume!) that there are plenty such - there are certainly plenty of Christians who have been christened Thomas!

Best,

Alistair

Well, yes, but the Christianity codified in the politically-expedient New Testament represents an emasculation of the older Christian texts, namely the Gnostic Gospels, which pre-date the current New Testament by as much as 200 to 300 years.

In these early Christian texts, followers are asked NOT to be followers by Christ, but leaders in their own individual discovery of spirituality through -- yes, you guessed it -- meditation.  Adherents are not given promises -- which one, if among the "faithful," finds repeatedly in the New Testatment -- but specific instructions on how to meditate.  If the truth is to be found, Christ said, it will be found there.

(interestingly, "meditative" aspects still persist in the Church, such as the repetitive counting of beads and repetitions of prayers.  Still, this is not exactly meditation, which is much more intense.)

Christ even discourages the establishment of a Church in his name.  He is never referred to as the Son of God and, if he is, it is in the context that we are all sons and daughters of God.  He rejects a priesthood and states that women are equal to men.  At any given meeting where adherents gather, he asks that a straw be drawn to establish that particular meeting's temporary "leader."

It was two men (I forget their names), around 200 AD, who cobbled together the New Testament as we know it.  Their purpose was the opposite of Christ's.  They explicitly wanted to create a Church, an organization, that would raise money and erect its own temples.  This, of corse, is the Roman Catholic Church of today.  Their choice was sound for one reason only -- it insured that anyone could be a Christian with the simple expression of "faith" and, through this, a membership that would give them money to continue their work.  Is it Christ's work?  I think not.  It's self-serving and contradictory to all of Christ's pronouncements.  It's transparently about the "laying up of treasures on earth."  The Vatican's vast wealth supports this conclusion.

So, if you are arguing that "good Christians" exist, which, of course they do, I am stating that they are following the more ancient precepts of the Gnostic Gospels -- whether they are aware of it or not. 

[thalbergmad]

To be a faithful, committed christian means you are not really comfortable

I meant "comfortable" as in well off, financially secure.

I know many Christians that like to help out the poor and needy by by providing meals and 2nd hand clothes, but they like to get back to their 5 bedroom houses as soon as possible to cleanse the stench.

Thal

[thalbergmad]

Almost nobody seems to know what they're actually talking about. I stopped participating in this sort of activities long ago.

Before you stop participating again, i would be interested to know if the "Almost nobody" just includes non-Christians.

Thal

[pianowolfi]

Before you stop participating again, i would be interested to know if the "Almost nobody" just includes non-Christians.

Thal

It includes both, christians and non-christians. I'm sure that people who are seriously involved in religious studies, with a scientific approach, would laugh (or cry) about all the crap that has been written here already

[thalbergmad]

Well, yes, but the Christianity codified in the politically-expedient New Testament represents an emasculation of the older Christian texts, namely the Gnostic Gospels, which pre-date the current New Testament by as much as 200 to 300 years.

In these early Christian texts, followers are asked NOT to be followers by Christ, but leaders in their own individual discovery of spirituality through -- yes, you guessed it -- meditation.  Adherents are not given promises -- which one, if among the "faithful," finds repeatedly in the New Testatment -- but specific instructions on how to meditate.  If the truth is to be found, Christ said, it will be found there.

(interestingly, "meditative" aspects still persist in the Church, such as the repetitive counting of beads and repetitions of prayers.  Still, this is not exactly meditation, which is much more intense.)

Christ even discourages the establishment of a Church in his name.  He is never referred to as the Son of God and, if he is, it is in the context that we are all sons and daughters of God.  He rejects a priesthood and states that women are equal to men.  At any given meeting where adherents gather, he asks that a straw be drawn to establish that particular meeting's temporary "leader."

It was two men (I forget their names), around 200 AD, who cobbled together the New Testament as we know it.  Their purpose was the opposite of Christ's.  They explicitly wanted to create a Church, an organization, that would raise money and erect its own temples.  This, of corse, is the Roman Catholic Church of today.  Their choice was sound for one reason only -- it insured that anyone could be a Christian with the simple expression of "faith" and, through this, a membership that would give them money to continue their work.  Is it Christ's work?  I think not.  It's self-serving and contradictory to all of Christ's pronouncements.  It's transparently about the "laying up of treasures on earth."  The Vatican's vast wealth supports this conclusion.

So, if you are arguing that "good Christians" exist, which, of course they do, I am stating that they are following the more ancient precepts of the Gnostic Gospels -- whether they are aware of it or not. 

I love this post and have passed it onto the Pope for his comments.

I apologise in advance if you get in the way of a stray bullet on the way to work.

Thal

[morningstar]

I meant "comfortable" as in well off, financially secure.

I know many Christians that like to help out the poor and needy by by providing meals and 2nd hand clothes, but they like to get back to their 5 bedroom houses as soon as possible to cleanse the stench.

Thal

Some of them are and some are not, just like anywhere else.
Yeah I know some like that too.

[thalbergmad]

I'm sure that people who are seriously involved in religious studies, with a scientific approach, would laugh (or cry) about all the crap that has been written here already

Well, lets hope there aren't any here then.

I would have though that if a scientific approach were invoked, some or part of the "crap" that has been written would fall apart.

I have found some of the posts to be rather interesting myself.

Thal

[pianowolfi]

Well, lets hope there aren't any here then.

Believe me, they would have no chance

I have found some of the posts to be rather interesting myself.

Sure, same here

Thal

Wolfi

[cmg]

It includes both, christians and non-christians. I'm sure that people who are seriously involved in religious studies, with a scientific approach, would laugh (or cry) about all the crap that has been written here already

Crap?  Crap!  Crap!?

Pianowolfi, I thought you were my friend! 

My post is strictly based on documented history and you can check my assertions against the foremost scholar on Christianity, Ann Pagels, in her book, aptly titled, "The Gnostic Gospels."

Attacked by Switzerland!  Now, that's a first!!   

[pianowolfi]

Crap?  Crap!  Crap!?

Pianowolfi, I thought you were my friend! 

My post is strictly based on documented history and you can check my assertions against the foremost scholar on Christianity, Ann Pagels, in her book, aptly titled, "The Gnostic Gospels."

Attacked by Switzerland!  Now, that's a first!!   

Lol i didn't write that all is crap that has been written here, and I wasn't relating to you 

[cmg]

Okay.     I feel a LITTLE better.   

[ahinton]

Well, in the interests of attempting to sum up - Christianity is not a plague of my mind; if it has to be so to the minds of others, then so be it, I guess...

Best,

Alistair

[pianowolfi]

Okay.     I feel a LITTLE better.   

To make you feel MUCH better, I would need to enter in a talk about religion, which I will never do here again. So I hope it's enough that I say that I like your posts

[cmg]

To make you feel MUCH better, I would need to enter in a talk about religion, which I will never do here again. So I hope it's enough that I say that I like your posts

Tausend dank, mein herr!

Actually, I only hopped on this thread because I have this miserable chest cold and I played hooky from work today.  To kill time, I picked on Christianity.  Forgive me.  It was either that or pick on thal.