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Topic: Practice, not play  (Read 2545 times)

Offline steveie986

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Practice, not play
on: August 30, 2006, 05:35:59 AM
How do I resist the temptation to sit down at the piano and play when I know I should be practicing (i.e., scales & arpeggios and learning new music)?

In the last five months, I've only memorized about fifteen pages of music. Mind you, it's mostly Bach so memorizing takes a bit longer. But I know I can learn much faster and I'm probably learning new material at about half the rate I'm capable of. I play/practice, on average, an hour a day. I've played for ten years.

I tried locking myself in a practice room with only one page of new music that I need to learn, but I end up wasting so much time just playing stuff I've already memorized because I love making music. I also believe intimacy with the music only comes when you turn it upside down, inside out, and let it ferment inside you like wine. But I'm not being very efficient this way. I get halfway through a piece and learning new passages becomes exponentially more difficult because I keep playing from the beginning. I should perhaps learn passages in random order rather than go in sequential order?

I know Prof. Bernhard, Peace Be Upon Him, has an excellent thread about memorizing Bach and I'm in the process of reading that.

Anyone else have this problem?

Offline zheer

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Re: Practice, not play
Reply #1 on: August 30, 2006, 07:03:53 AM
. I play/practice, on average, an hour a day. I've played for ten years.



  To be honest one should stop practicing scales and arppegios once the basics have been learnt,and that should only take a few months for a beginer, i've personaly paid no attention to scales or arppegios only learnt its theory. Anyway my advice to you would be to sight read through music as much as possible and creat music in the process,hence play the piano, the memory and tecknical side should develop on its own with concious effort gradually with correct instruction. The thing about Bernhard he seems like the teacher that has music qualifications coming out of his ear hole,and vast amount of knowledge but he looks into piano playing too much.
  So chill out do what i do ,and just play the piano, have fun its just a piano. Infact am going to have a shawer then play may through Chopin and my new friend Liszt. See ya
" Nothing ends nicely, that's why it ends" - Tom Cruise -

Offline quasimodo

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Re: Practice, not play
Reply #2 on: August 30, 2006, 09:55:41 AM
steveie, it's rather hard to answer your question. Actually the answer is maybe already in your question itself.
Maybe it's just that you're currently lacking motivation to learn new stuff?
" On ne joue pas du piano avec deux mains : on joue avec dix doigts. Chaque doigt doit être une voix qui chante"

Samson François

Offline pianohenry

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Re: Practice, not play
Reply #3 on: August 30, 2006, 11:51:40 AM
for me, most of the time the motivation to learn new things comes from me listening to pieces constantly before i play them...

for example, i have a debussy Cd with suite bergamasque, la plus que lente, some images, deux arabesques and some preludes on it. I listened to the cd for a long time because i liked it, and then when i found the music for the suite, the second arabesque and the prelude (la fille de cheveux lin) i thought ill try to learn it. and then i find that when i sit down i WANT to practice rather than play - because i already know exactly what the piece should sound like because ive heard it many times before - so my only goal is to make what comes out of my piano sound as close to what i have in my head. and that takes practice, i cant just play it straight away even though i know how it should sound.

what i think im trying to explain (but not that well :P) is that, for me to want to practice NEW material and actually improve my techniques and things, rather than just bulldoze through stuff i already know, i have to listen to a piece for a while and get to know it and really love the piece before i start to play it - and then when i come to play it, i dont get distracted because i really want to be able to play it nicely and as well as the person on the recording  ;D

Im still only young and i dont always form completely my own interpretations of things. usually i just play what the music tells me, and sometimes i will base my interpretation on things that ive heard other people play and ill remember thinking, "hmm thats a good way to play it" or even, "hmm i dont like the way he did that, im going to do it differently..." - but even so, listening to the piece and knowing it before you learn it gives you some sort of goal to your practice. even if you might eventually change things and do a lot differently to how the recording plays it, as long as its a nice recording it will give you something to work towards, and your practice will have a goal and be more useful.

Offline danieln

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Re: Practice, not play
Reply #4 on: October 12, 2006, 07:17:48 AM
for me, most of the time the motivation to learn new things comes from me listening to pieces constantly before i play them...

for example, i have a debussy Cd with suite bergamasque, la plus que lente, some images, deux arabesques and some preludes on it. I listened to the cd for a long time because i liked it, and then when i found the music for the suite, the second arabesque and the prelude (la fille de cheveux lin) i thought ill try to learn it. and then i find that when i sit down i WANT to practice rather than play - because i already know exactly what the piece should sound like because ive heard it many times before - so my only goal is to make what comes out of my piano sound as close to what i have in my head. and that takes practice, i cant just play it straight away even though i know how it should sound.

what i think im trying to explain (but not that well :P) is that, for me to want to practice NEW material and actually improve my techniques and things, rather than just bulldoze through stuff i already know, i have to listen to a piece for a while and get to know it and really love the piece before i start to play it - and then when i come to play it, i dont get distracted because i really want to be able to play it nicely and as well as the person on the recording  ;D

Im still only young and i dont always form completely my own interpretations of things. usually i just play what the music tells me, and sometimes i will base my interpretation on things that ive heard other people play and ill remember thinking, "hmm thats a good way to play it" or even, "hmm i dont like the way he did that, im going to do it differently..." - but even so, listening to the piece and knowing it before you learn it gives you some sort of goal to your practice. even if you might eventually change things and do a lot differently to how the recording plays it, as long as its a nice recording it will give you something to work towards, and your practice will have a goal and be more useful.

me too

Offline hyrst

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Re: Practice, not play
Reply #5 on: October 12, 2006, 10:16:24 AM
Stevie,
It sounds like what you need is motivation.  But, to have motivation you need a clear idea of what you want to achieve and a reason to achieve it - especially when the work becomes tedious or hard (as things do from time to time). 

The other side might be knowing how to move on from where you are in the present.  Focusing on one problem and creatively looking for a solution, instead of trying to achieve everything at once - or facing a limitation that you don't knwo how to get past.

Quasimodo desribed their motivation - and the same thing works for me, at least in part.  Why do you want to be able to play?  What do you want to be able to play like?  This might be part of finding a goal.  Perhaps you want to master the style of a particular composer?  Do you want to be able to play so other people can enjoy hearing it - looking for performance opportunities?  All these things matter to me, so I work towards what I want to be able to do.  Listening to recordings and analysing the music is part of this, helping to motivate me.

Maybe you are needing to work out what your goal is.  If you want it to be something but you don't have the drive, then you need to split your ultimate goal into smaller ones that you can reach and reward yourself for - something more tangible and attainable in the short term.  Maybe you would like to memorise the whole of one piece, or something?  When you get there, reward yourself.  Maybe you could reward yourself by playing whatever you feel like for one practice session, or something (a bowl of ice-cream?).  Often we lose track of goals because they are too far away.

Remember, it's OK to play just to enjoy it as well.  Isn't that what music is for - the aesthetics?

Offline ihatepop

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Re: Practice, not play
Reply #6 on: October 12, 2006, 01:58:07 PM
To be honest one should stop practicing scales and arppegios once the basics have been learnt

But still, don't forget to go back to them once in a while!

ihatepop

Offline thierry13

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Re: Practice, not play
Reply #7 on: October 13, 2006, 12:13:41 PM
But still, don't forget to go back to them once in a while!

ihatepop

Indeed, being able to do any scale, fast even and clean, on 4 octaves with its arpegio on 4 octaves at the end of each scale... helps a lot. You see a scale passage, no need to even read it, you allready have played it really clean, no practice needed. And it helps you to think about better fingerings faster.

Offline demented cow

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Re: Practice, not play
Reply #8 on: October 18, 2006, 05:14:02 PM
Dear Stevie986,
for over 20 years, I have had the same problem of playing instead of practising, but it takes a slightly different form. I have a big 'repertoire' of things I can't play well enough to perform in an official concert (in most cases I can make music out of most of it, but technical problems are (barely) hidden with pedal, emergency rubato or improvisation). My problem is slightly different from yours because it partly stems basically from listening to lots of piano recordings. I will hear a good recording of some piece, like it and decide I HAVE TO play it, so the piece I was working on at that point gets the flick. Then the process is repeated between 2 weeks and a month later with a new piece.

Basically there's no solution for people like us who lack discipline. I've often told myself to stay with a piece for longer and to persevere more with isolating the technical problems. But sooner or later I will end up thinking 'ph*ck practising small sections slowly, I wanna play some MUSIC'. That's fine, but let's not kid ourselves that we will be any better in five years.

FOOTNOTE: I would be free from the above problems and maybe happier as a pianist if I were a type of pianist I normally despise: what I call a 'moonlight sonata pianist': one of those un-curious people who, despite getting 8 years of piano lessons, has only listened to 3 piano cds, and only plays the pieces on those cds and/or pieces the teacher gives them to learn, but at least ends up playing those pieces technically well. They go through life thinking that the Moonlight 3rd movement and the Revolutionary Etude are the hardest pieces out there (because best-of cd's don't have Chopin-Godowsky on them), so at least they feel good about being able to play those pieces. Of course, their interpretations suck because they haven't had their musical horizons broadened by listening to and thinking about what different great pianists do, but at least they don't know that, so everything's cool bananas for them (it's not cool 'nanis when these people offer piano lessons to others, but that's irrelevant here).

Offline demented cow

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Re: Practice, not play
Reply #9 on: October 18, 2006, 05:32:03 PM
P.S. Something i forgot to mention: maybe some people like us who lack the discipline to practise (new) things properly might have just had bad experiences when we did practise properly. The last time I really stuck at a piece (learning Chopin's 2nd ballade for an exam), it took so long to solve the technical problems (1 year) that I hated the music. I played it all right in the exam, but gave it a rest for a while after. Two weeks later I wanted to play the piece again, but couldn't play the fast passages at half speed. With an experience like this, it's no wonder that I never really stuck at learning pieces again. I know what the solution is: Be more talented.

Offline swim4ever_22

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Re: Practice, not play
Reply #10 on: October 19, 2006, 02:41:10 AM
I know Prof. Bernhard, Peace Be Upon Him, has an excellent thread about memorizing Bach and I'm in the process of reading that.


What happened to Bernhard?

Offline ramseytheii

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Re: Practice, not play
Reply #11 on: October 20, 2006, 04:37:05 AM
P.S. Something i forgot to mention: maybe some people like us who lack the discipline to practise (new) things properly might have just had bad experiences when we did practise properly. The last time I really stuck at a piece (learning Chopin's 2nd ballade for an exam), it took so long to solve the technical problems (1 year) that I hated the music. I played it all right in the exam, but gave it a rest for a while after. Two weeks later I wanted to play the piece again, but couldn't play the fast passages at half speed. With an experience like this, it's no wonder that I never really stuck at learning pieces again. I know what the solution is: Be more talented.

I definitely don't want this to sound bitchy, but if you couldn't play the piece after only two weeks, you didn't solve the technical problems!

I apologize for my directness!  :-[

Your solution is therfore also to my mind incorrect.  This experience can teach you in all things, not just music, to seek answers that last, seek information with a foundation, seek the rock on which all knowledge is built.  For this one does not need to be more talented, but only to have the smallest predliction for the scientific sort of mind: to ask who, what, when, where, why and/or how.  Through these simple questions we can solve all problems, or at least come to such an understanding that approaches solution.

If you can play ap iece one day, and the next day not, you haven't learned it properly and it is that simple.  But this word "properly" should not be understood as there is one universal way of doing things, and you didn't do that, but that some way must be discovered, a way of learning that is lasting and effective.  This kind of learning though is never finished, but it will take you to the highest levels of achievement.

Walter Ramsey

Offline pianowelsh

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Re: Practice, not play
Reply #12 on: October 20, 2006, 10:55:43 AM
At college I did scales on a key per day basis, so monday was C, C#maj min,chrom etc etc etc, tuesday D,D# wed E+E# etc..that dosent take so long! It sounds like your a naturally musical person and this is FANTASTIC - a teachers gift! Dont loose that.  You want to retain things youve memorised that is not BAD so dont feel guilty about it - I would go as far as to say you MUST do it. However you will probably be the kind of student who wont make consistent technical advances unless you discipline yourself daily SO. Be a bit Routhless with yourself. I suggest if you only have a limited practice session. photocopy only what you want toa chieve for the next session and make a mental note im going to refresh this one from memory! Then split your practice session up. Scales/warm up 10mins (max), working on/memorising new page/2 (20mins), playing something by memory (disciplined way - going for detail) (5 mins) that way your done in 35 mins and each area has been developed. I know what you mean about bad experiences with repertoire! There are a couple of pieces I wont be playing for years because of things associated with them. But that shouldnt colour the way you approach things now - you clearly have a lot of talent! Dont believe any self doubts that tell you you need to be more talented to be any good. Truth is often we need to apply ourselves more to be good. Mozart and Mendelssohn though in some senses were natural geniuses, always got annoyed when people hailed them as natural geniuses, they always claimed it was hard work that crafted their abilities, both waking about 5am throughout their childhood and taking one of the most comprehensive hummanities programmes we could ever imagine - before they were into their teens!! they worked their butts off. no matter how much talent you have if you work with it it is amazing where it can take you.  I began piano lessons aged 9/10 with a teacher who held me back on tramp tramp tramp the boys are marching for months! The mere mention of music as a career made folks laugh. But I sit hear now working full-time in music and having a music college degree in performance, I tell you some of the teaching i recieved on the way wasnt great either but I persisted and like yourself love music.  if you love a piece enough you will learn it.  Try taking it line by line. Do three repetitions perfect of each line of music then tick it. Move to next. Somtimes start form the fornt sometimes form the end. this is brilliant way of learning because you can then pick up anywhere - SO efficient!

Offline teresa_b

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Re: Practice, not play
Reply #13 on: October 20, 2006, 11:46:37 AM
I guess everyone has his/her own take on this.  It is definitely hard for most of us to get the degree of discipline necessary to play well!  I am working on Beetoven's PC 4 for next spring, and I have also only about an hour a day to work on it. 

My methods:

1.  When you first start a piece, "wallow" in it for a few days and don't start the slogging yet.  Make sure you love the piece and it doesn't seem so far beyond you technically that you will run into a brick wall when practicing.

2.  Then, begin H.S work (AND some H.T. playing on easier passages so you don't get too frustrated or bored doing the hard stuff).

3.  Find the hardest passages (Break it down to no more that a couple of pages or less--even a few bars).  Plan a session to work on THAT passage, HS and HT, starting very slowly and make it a POINT not to play it above the tempo you can do with minimal to no errors.  Meanwhile, have fun with something you can play well in the same practice session--warm up with it for 10 minutes and/or end up with it. 

4.  The next day, do that SAME passage and you will see how much better it is!  This is heart-warming!  Then repeat step 3 daily.  Work to get the passages up to tempo, but stop at a slower tempo if you are getting sloppy.

5.  When you have the entire piece (or movement) fairly accurate at a slower tempo, play all of it it through at the slow tempo BEFORE you try it at tempo.  EVERY practice session if possible, play it at a slow tempo FIRST--even when you believe you can play it perfectly at tempo. 

6.  DON"T lock yourself in and force it--that's punishment that will make you hate it.  If you don't feel like slogging today, to hell with it, and just play stuff you like for an hour!  Tomorrow you can go back to really working.   ;)  (It's best to allow yourself only one day of goofing off if you're seriously learning a piece.)

HAVE FUN!!!
Teresa

Offline captain cook

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Re: Practice, not play
Reply #14 on: October 26, 2006, 01:16:40 PM
To be honest one should stop practicing scales and arppegios once the basics have been learnt

Infact am going to have a shawer then play may through Chopin and my new friend Liszt

...and that's why we don't hear about you as pianist mate. Rubbish.


Even old Horowitz said that he wouldn't be who he was if he didn't practice scales all his life.

Now, is that good enough for the motivation?  :)

Offline timothy42b

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Re: Practice, not play
Reply #15 on: October 26, 2006, 02:35:11 PM
How do I resist the temptation to sit down at the piano and play when I know I should be practicing (i.e., scales & arpeggios and learning new music)?


The Premack principle is that high probability behaviors can be used to reinforce low probability behaviors.  You don't have to know why, just that it works.

And what you are doing works for you, but you're unhappy with it.  I'm not sure why.  You have motivation enough to play, but not to make yourself suffer - I'm wondering what is the downside?

I do have a practical suggestion.  I suspect you are a closet player who does not perform.  (Abject apologies if I'm guessing wrong!)  If you were to schedule some performance opportunities, it would motivate you to perfect that music, and maybe inject some new enthusiasm for your practice.  I've been playing for church lately.  At my low skill level that requires a lot of focused practice, which has been good for me.  I think you need to do a recital, or a nursing home concert, or a rock gig, or a piano bar, etc.  Maybe join a polka band.  Or next time you're in Germany come on over, you can sub for me at church.  I need a break. 
Tim

Offline ramseytheii

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Re: Practice, not play
Reply #16 on: October 26, 2006, 08:38:07 PM
The Premack principle is that high probability behaviors can be used to reinforce low probability behaviors.  You don't have to know why, just that it works.


I want to know more about this!  Can you explain how these high probability behaviors can be used.  Thanks!

Walter Ramsey
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