a question for pianistimo

[maestoso]

would you reccomend getting a teacher just for a posture check? because i don't need one for theory or technique cause i will develop that on my own. i don't feel i really need an instructor cause i am not new to music and i enjoy playing stuff i shouldn't be playing i'm also 33 years old and i have been playing guitar for 22 years. i know piano is very different( plus more beautiful)and i am adapting well. any input?

[spkenn5]

i know piano is very different( plus more beautiful)and i am adapting well. any input?

I AGREE! more beautiful but again, i admire paul gilbert's saying of how piano cant do his music but he can do piano's stuff in guitar!

[maestoso]

that's true but it's a lot easier to do piano stuff on guitar

[pianistimo]

posture is key!  i think the solar plexus is where it's at.  to have good posture you have to have a strong back.  to have a strong back, you have to work out about a half hour to an hour per day.  so that takes a little away from the practice time - but is worth it, imo.  for me, bicycling REALLY helps my lower back.  it sort of rotates it around and loosens it up.  if you think about it - the back really becomes compressed as you get older.  i really want one of those flip over boards.  it feels so good to become decompressed. 

there's no particular order to my day.  sometimes i practice first and exercise later. sometimes exercise first and practice later.  as long as you can maintain somewhat of both during the week - you'll probably not get serious back and neck pain. 

also, chiropractors always seem to have about 10 exercises they always say you should do to keep your back in shape.  i used to faithfully do them as a teenager, but the older i got the more i forgot them.  there's one in there that decompresses your back by flipping the legs over the head.

i think the exercises start out rotating your head around both ways.  then, your shoulders.  many pianists do this anyway as a sort of warm-up.  then turning the back from side to side.  doing a few sit-ups.  knees to chest (opposite elbows if you want).  lie flat.  then, finally legs up (bicycle in place) and then as you can gradually get used to feet over the head and touching the floor.  you'll feel the pops and decompression. 

if you already play tennis or run or whatever - don't change.  just find ways to keep your back strong.  that's my advice.

[lostinidlewonder]

Posture check? Posture of the hands or the entire body? I've seen brilliant pianists with bad back posture, so it has little to do with our playing (unless you play for long periods of time). I try not to get overly upset with my students bad posture at the piano because so long they are relaxed and comfortable that is the best way to sit. So long their arms do not angle below the keyboard I don't care what they do.

[maestoso]

 i would say the hands i try really hard to play relaxed and pay attention to the tension in my hands and arms. thanks for your advice!

[pianistimo]

don't most all nerves and muscles have some connection to the back?  if you have a pinched nerve - you're not going to have the fastest connection there.  i stick to my guns.  if you sit up straight - you play better.  take any martial art, or ballet student.  they can't do what they do for hours if they are slumping.  neither can a good pianist.  they might have a bad neck but a good back.  rach had a sort of head forward thingy.  but, take a look at pogorelich.  i like his posture. 

not saying that i don't understand what lostinidle is saying - it's just that he doesn't realize that he's in shape.  he probably plays tennis or does SOMETHING to stay in shape.  you don't notice until you lack proper muscles to keep your back from getting majorly sore. 

sometimes i use a chair to sit back against when i'm playing for a long period of time.  i think women are more succeptible to soreness in the back (possiblY) because we have a lot pulling down on the front.  the thing for women students is probably 'shoulders back.'  i can't think of anything better really to tell a woman student.  as soon as she does this - she'll play 10x better.  for a man, he may have his shoulders back - but his head too far forward.  i'd say 'head back' for a man.

[leucippus]

There's a huge difference between dealing with health problems and playing the piano.

I agree with lostinidlewonder.  Just watch videos of the greatest pianist ever.  Most of them have terrible posture from a the point of view of being concerned with health.  Some do sit fairly upright, but others, and I would dare say the most emotional players who really get "into" the music are often hunched over the keyboard precisely the way most teachers claim that you aren't supposed to do.

In fact, when I was starting out, I read Chang's book on posture as well as other sources.   Even Chang suggests sitting upright and far enough away from the piano that you can just barely slip your elbows in front of your gut.  That's further away from the piano than most people would naturally sit.  In fact, many of the most famous players crowd the keyboard and hunch over it quite a bit.

I actually tried to discipline myself to adhering to Chang's posture suggestions.   For some types of pieces I actually did find it to be better than crowding the keyboard.  But then for other types of pieces I just can't put any emotion into the piece at all whilst trying to sit up like a stuffed shirt.

I finally gave into what feels natural and now I'm determined to play in whatever contortions feel right for me to produce the best results. 

I think Arturo Michelangeli is a good example of a pianist who went through whatever contortions he felt were necessary to become one with the music.  The music dictates how it should be played if you actually allow it to flow through you, and this includes body posture.

It's just like playing tennis, you can try to play like a robot or you can go through contortions that feel natural and play like a human being.  Chances are very good that you will play better if you do the latter.  Although I'm sure some will argue with that.  But then you can always find someone to argue with anything.

People can argue all the want.  It's not going to cause me to stop doing what feels natural.

As for the health issues.  I'm basically a mountain man.  I heat with wood that I chop from trees I cut down.  I hand pump water.  I grow all my own food.  I make all my own furniture.  Heck, I even built my own house.  I don't need to workout to play the piano.  The piano is what I do for relaxation and spiritual fulfillment in the form of emotional release.

I can't actually play much yet, but I even play Hanon with emotion.  (yeah, say it isn't so!)

[lostinidlewonder]

Sitting upright can give a sense of control, I find the higher I tower above the notes the more it seems like the notes are beneath my hands, not my hands trying to play over them..... It feels like I can utilise gravity in my hands easier to depress the notes notes, if that makes sense, it is hard to explain the feeling. But I believe strong,straight back posture is much more important with the issues associated with health not piano playing as leucippus mentioned. But at the same time during extreme pppp passages sometimes I naturally bend my back and move closer to the piano because that feels more controlled, so its hard to say what actually gives me more controll when it comes to how my back is set. Sometimes when its 2am and I'm tired I prefer to slouch at the keyboard and play, that is much easier and I can last longer.

Pianissimo the muscular connection between the back and the hands is a response that I would be very surprised if a developing pianist would appreciate. But I'm on the same boat with you in the long term, bad posture not only at the piano but sitting in general will perhaps eventually develop future back problems. Afterall we want to play as long as we can, even in old age!

[pianistimo]

do you live in alaska, leucippus?

and, lostinidlewonder.  you know i'm a fan of yours - so whatever you say, goes.  i think you and leucippus and maestoso are right about relaxation and allowing certain music to take you 'away.'  it's just that for some students who are beginners, you don't want this sloppy spaghetti - hands dragging off the keyboard type attitude.  i suppose the more you get 'into' certain music - the more you can allow your body to flow with it.  and, i agree that some pieces require you to sit closer to the keyboard.

i have found personally that sitting a little back and either leaning forward or back - gives me the most 'solar plexuish' playing.  and, i don't feel bothered.  i've always been complimented on my posture.  guess one sort of needs a video of themselves to see if they are playing too stiffly, though.  michelangeli is a really great pianist - so i'm not criticizing very very relaxed playing either.  and lostinidlewonder, you already know i like your playing and attitude toward the piano.

[maestoso]

I have been searching for a bench for my huge upright, but i found an ergonomic chair that is the perfect height. as with leucippus i play everthing i can with emotion so i move alot, but the chair will help me with a reference point cause i tend to slouch. and i am in shape, round is a shape right?

[pianistimo]

what worries me about ergonomic chairs is the fact they may swivel or suddenly, without warning - drop 5 inches.  personally, i would find the ones with wheels very alarming.

if you could find one with no real adjustments that fit you perfectly (and had no side arms) - it might be a possibility for practice.   the lower back sometimes does better after a few hours with a little support.

has anyone tried those waist thingy's that people use for heavy lifting?  i just thought of that.  my husband has one in the garage. it is black and looks like a large piece of elastic with velcro to tighten to waist.

at about hour six - my back hurts.  i rarely practice that long.  usually around new years.

[maestoso]

it's on carpet and it doesn't swivel.