Teaching students how to practice

[klicker]

The other day, as I was sitting through an awful awful rendition of 'London's Burning', I realized that I wasn't sure how to help my student.    The previous lesson was spent going over the song in small sections, and then putting it all together slowly.  But by the next lesson, it was back to the 'stuttering' play that makes me want to climb walls and pull my hair out.    

My student is 7...so I'm thinking that some of this might be attributed to a lack of motor skills?!?  I don't know...
She will play a measure, make a mistake, and then play it again, making the exact same mistake.  I stop her, we go over it hands seperately several times.  We put the hands together slowly, but after the initial 'slow practice', she still makes the same mistake over and over.

I know that my personal music education has holes, so I'm hoping that the 'how to practice' one can be fixed with some help from some of the teachers here.   

How does a student 'practice properly'?  How do you teach them to do so?  What are your methods/suggestions/etc. when a student can't seem to master a piece?  (I tried searching for such a topic, but after reading through 5 of the 175 pages brought up, and not finding what I was looking for, I decided to just make a new thread.  If there is an old one that someone has squirreled away in a file or something, please just point me in the right direction.)

Please help!!     thanx

[m1469]

It actually sounds to me like you are doing in lessons what is needed (and my philosophy is that work in lessons should exemplify how one can work in practice -- though sometimes one must point out that what is done in lesson time is meant to be carried over into private practice) but that she is just not practicing at home during the week. 

Also, have you done an advanced search like this :

search for :                        by user :
practice                             bernhard


You will find many things your heart desires  .


One more thing, do you let her play through the entire thing (or section) at least once no matter what happens ?  Getting the long line can help with the details so long as the principles are being grasped, she hasn't actually learned a wrong note that needs correcting, and it's just a matter of breaking through a little wall.


m1469

[leucippus]

I don't know if this will help but since it's on my mind I'll post it.

You said:

We put the hands together slowly, but after the initial 'slow practice', she still makes the same mistake over and over.

When reading this I immediately thought of something that I've learned fairly early on.

A pianist's fingers move in a similar manner as the legs of a horse.  I don't know how familiar you are with horses, but horses basically have 3 gaits (as do humans actually).   They are walking, trotting, and galloping.  For a human we call these gaits walking, jogging, and running.

All three of these gaits are quite different motions.  We have to "change" from a walk to a jog.  There is an abrupt change in the style of our movement when we break from a walk into a jog.  Same thing is true when we break from a jog into an all-out run.

Well, playing the piano is very similar.  If your student is practicing slow at a "walk" or even a "jog", but the actual piece is played at a "gallop" then all the slow practice in the world will not help because it's like practicing the motion of walking to prepare for a run.  They just aren't the same thing.

What I've found is that you can indeed practice a gallop slowly.  Just as we can actually run slow.  We can run as slow as a walk and still be using the "running motion".   That's what your student needs to do when practicing slowly.  She needs to play it using the "running" motion.

This may or may not have anything to do with your problem   But I do know that if she's practicing slowly using the wrong motion then she's definitely going to trip up when she tries to run with that motion.


I wish you and your student the best. 

[jpianoflorida]

I COMPLETELY understand where you are coming from.....   I would love to hear some great ideas as well.    Of course at seven you are limited--you really need parental support , which I have with some students but not all...  I explain to the parents about each piece and what specifally the student needs to work on(might write a note, last line have them play many extra times, etc etc) . Ok so this will work with parents who are involved, but honestly I can't say that all parents are willing to help...Many parents just want the teacher to do it all!    Besides, some of your young students have a desire to get their songs perfect, others just go thru the motions and somehow we have to convince them to be better(there's a whole new issue)

[debussy symbolism]

Greetings.

I have a theory. The student doesn't truly learn the correct way after practicing, and instead relies on what she already knows without applying the practicing. Yes, she does practice, and she may even practice it correctly, but when it comes to actually playing that measure, she resorts to how she used to play it, despite the practicing. My guess is that she tries to play the measure at speed. After having her practice the measure, make sure that she pays attention to what she plays, noting the place that needs to be corrected. Again, my advice is: control and concentration, no brainless playing.

[pianowelsh]

get them analysising what they do and you and they will quickly find out why they are making mistakes... often their brains just dont engage!! Try more conitnous hands sep (ie a whole line or even the whole piece) stopping measure by measure can be good but it can also train in stuttering so it needs to be done oin balance. Also dont allow them to start until they have talked through what they are going to do. I find this helps them play 90% more accurately because the brain has had a trial run before the fingers get unleashed!! it takes training to get the students to do this because they just want to dive in BUT so often they dive in and learn mistakes which are nigh on impossible to fix later. Practice never getting it wrong. Im a great believer in that one. With slightly older students I also ask them to grade their performance out of 1 -10 and when they give me a number I ask why (what good things got it up to that figure and what bad things stopped you getting 10) that way they learn what to listen out for when they practice so they dont waste time!!

[lostinidlewonder]

I tell students you can play 100% correct the first notes that start the piece, its only what comes after that. So always find out which note stops you, hold the position just before it, then play it only when you know where to go. Continue process until you can do it without the CONTROLLED pause.

Always have them being able to listen to what they are playing and sense where they are in the phrase of the music. When we say we want them to be able to listen to what they play, they have to have a sense of the beat of the piece they are playing, they have to know if the notes they are playing are inbetween strong beats or if they are on the beats. They also have to have a sense for the rhythm of what they are playing, is it a pattern that is being repeated, is this rhythm understood (can they clap it confidently, and play random notes of that rhythm and shape on the keyboard confidently and at any tempo?) If so chances are that they are actually listening to what they play and it is the notes and fingers that evade them. WHat I am saying, there is no point correcting the fingers and notes if they can't hear what they play, they will take a lot of time to escape thinking about the notes which sets us up as teachers with brick walls.

Sometimes beginner students who have no idea I get them to just play any notes which resembles the shape that they have to play in the piece. I get them to do this both hands and with the correct rhythm, correct timing for notes coming together etc. It sounds awful and they find it very amusing most of the times. But as soon as you notice that they can physically play these notes in a general shape similar to the piece with correct timing and togetherness, then start correcting notes.

Sometimes just playing a few bars a week nice and right is a good achievement. I use to set my students so much when I began, but I quickly realised to lower the bar a great deal, you can't depress students with too much work that they can't handle, I even was at one time one bar a week with one student! At least we where not frustrated that the piano couldn't be played without stupid #$*@# pausing.  The positive thing is after a a couple of years now this student has learn to at least absorb a phrase of music at a time. It was an uphill battle though, from 1 bar a week pushing the bar constantly, but very slowly. This student like most didn't practice consisitiently, so the improvement was erratic and now and then there where steps backwards (at least never to 1 bar a week!).  You just must get into your students heads, try to improve the rate that they learn at. It is always unique with each student, you must explain simple things many times in as many ways as you can possibly imagine. Get them to explain it to you.

[rhapsody in orange]

Sometimes just playing a few bars a week nice and right is a good achievement. I use to set my students so much when I began, but I quickly realised to lower the bar a great deal, you can't depress students with too much work that they can't handle, I even was at one time one bar a week with one student! At least we where not frustrated that the piano couldn't be played without stupid #$*@# pausing.  times in as many ways as you can possibly imagine. Get them to explain it to you.

Yep I agree with that. I used to get frustrated when my student couldn't meet with my expectations, and I know that she's frustrated at the same time. That just didn't help things at all. Now instead of that, I'd ask my student what she feels is hard about that part. I've got a student who isn't exactly a fast learner, and he has a tendency to stop a lot in between bars to figure out the notes. But by doing things in 2 or 4 bar bits, and with some practice in joining up the 'gaps' in between the bar, he at least achieved something no matter how little during the lesson. And when he finally made it (although it took a little long), the satisfaction achieved felt really good.

[debussy symbolism]

I think it is crucial that the teacher always find time to praise the student. Nothing is more depressing than watching your teacher be in dissapointment. Let your student know that he/she is progressing and getting better, no matter how little the progress was. If the students knows that his/her efforts aren't in vain, he/she will have more confidence and will be eager to improve playing.

[jpianoflorida]

I think it is crucial that the teacher always find time to praise the student. Nothing is more depressing than watching your teacher be in dissapointment. Let your student know that he/she is progressing and getting better, no matter how little the progress was. If the students knows that his/her efforts aren't in vain, he/she will have more confidence and will be eager to improve playing.

we teachers always need reminding of this! thanks!

[penguinlover]

All this is great advice, but here's one tip that hasn't been mentioned.  Maybe it's so basic that it doesn't bear mentioning.  Always write it down for the student in their notebook.  That way, they are reminded of what you said every time they practice.  For younger ones, it is a valuable tool as parents (who don't play the piano) try to help their child practice.  It also gives you a record of what you said too, just in case the student says "you never told me that!" 

[debussy symbolism]

Great idea! My teacher sometimes writes down as to how to practice a particular material, whether study or an individual piece. I sometimes write down in my music what my teacher says when dealing with proper practicing methods, just so that I don't forget.

[klicker]

wow---so many great replies!  Thank you all so much.  I will definitely be trying out the suggestions, and considering the thoughts given so far. 

I probably actually overdue it on the praise thing.  I always felt great when my teacher praised me, so I do the same with my students.  Even if the whole song is wrong, I will find one thing that they did right (even if it was just their posture) and praise them for it first.  I actually kind of suck at showing disappointment--maybe if I acted a little more let down after a bad song, they would be more motivated to make it sound better...balance balance balance. 

I try to write things down in the notebooks...but it seems like half the time they don't look at it during the week.     She and her fam travel a lot during the summer, singing and playing their violins, so she just isn't practicing like she should lately. 

Again, thank you for all the thoughts so far...keep them coming, because I really love hearing from other teachers--it's very insightful.  I feel that it helps me to broaden my mind---look at things differently, and from other perspectives. 

[debussy symbolism]

Don't give them false encouragement. They will associate their playing with your encouragement, and not take into account correct practice. If you see something as faulty, or otherwise incorrect, make sure to notify the student of it. If the student persists making the same mistake, and doesn't try to correct it, then, show dissapointment.

[leahcim]

But I have that within which passeth show;
These but the trappings and the suits of woe.


"bad pupil, naughty pupil in your basket...we're very disappointed"

If you're disappointed, how do you hide it? Why show it if you're not? If you want to show stuff join your local amateur dramatic society.

Be objective and any problem will be because they can't be. But don't lose too much sleep over that, they'll come around if you're always objective.

When I say to my kids "No" they hear themselves being told off, being refused a bar of chocolate, being told not to run around the supermarket, as well as that driving in 4th gear and 70mph 50 yards from the stop sign requires some quick adjustment.

If you're in the position to have as far as possible, an objective relationship then saying "No" shouldn't have the baggage. That's why driving instructors row less than parents doing the job.

Why invent some by acting like the very people they'll associate "No" and some kind of guilt / disappointment or punishment with?

Think of it like this, every time you make a post here we'll either act disappointed or pleased. We'll see how much of a £$%£ up you become not knowing what's good and what's bad. That might help you decide whether abortion is right or wrong, or who you should vote for, but when it comes to playing London's Burning isn't it pretty objective?

Even amongst the music is subjective crowd they probably don't mean that in the sense where you need to manipulate people by acting out some strange farce at the end of their playing to to change it, as you might to change their voting.

That's pretty much what being a kid must be like amongst the "If he craps on the carpet, tell him how pleased you are with something, perhaps his posture or the fact he removed the nappy. But by the 3rd time then don't smile, hold your nose for a count of ten or until the director shouts 'cut' "

You aren't trying to manipulate kids into your own moral viewpoint, so you can leave that carrot / stick / praise / disappoint act for the Government / school / parents to do, and just teach 'em to play the piano.

Give 'em a chance to learn what's good and what's bad. Be objective.
If you really can't be, then at least be honest as you were in #0.

Although if bad playing makes you want to pull your hair out, then call the boys and start the "I never wanted to teach piano...I always wanted to be a lumberjack..." song, because one of the secrets I reveal in "20 things you probably didn't know about teaching piano but...you'll kick yourself ...", is that you have to listen to people who can't play the piano [the other 19 are still well worth the $19.99]

[lostinidlewonder]

Leachim you must teach me how to understand what you write.

[leahcim]

Leachim you must teach me how to understand what you write.

Ok, but you have to teach me to play the piano in return.

[lostinidlewonder]

You know piano can only be taught in person, but you can explain yourself in words.

[pianowelsh]

I feel very strongly about giving praise and encouragement having not recieved much from at least 5 of my own teachers. It is critical that students see that what they are doing is worth something if you constantly show disappointment or disgust at their playing they will end up depressed - as I nearly did. I dont think you should lie to your student if they played really badly. they need to be taught what is good, what is bad and how to get from bad to good. But if you jump in straight away with a criticism they will crumple and do it enough they will actually glaze over the minute you start to speak.  I took one transfer student and her teacher had so destroyed her confidence if you wanted her to stop part way though a piece to discuss something she would physically jump she would be so nervous.. She would have to be told repeatedly 'it wasnt so bad as you think, this was good.. and this and this' and it was so ingrained she wouldnt believe you. SERIOUSLY we need to consider very carefully what we do when we give feedback (pos or neg) because it cans shape peoples perception of music and actually have quite severe consequences on peoples mental health.  I make a student perform their work first of all (I wont comment at all till they finish - except to tell them to keep going and stop apologising for themselves) When they are done I start with an affirmation ' I enjoyed that' 'you did well to keep going' ' that was better than the last time I heard it' - not lying to them but consciously building them up. Then very often I ask them to grade them selves and explain how they got the mark they award themselves (good and bad) we write down these as a base for practice. I then get them to turn back to the score and I ask them how have you practiced the piece this week.. from their I gauge  has this student slogged away like crazy to please me and gone to pieces in the lesson... if so and I criticise them they will be really down and want to give up and feel negative about themselves and their playing. If theyve basically not done any work then I can say 'this piece is pretty tough fro you now at the level your at you need to work in this way' I practice with them a bit to show them how to do it and we move on to other things. If they are conscientious and still sounded BAD then we need to examine why.. is the way they are practising not helping them (inappropriate for piece) do they lack understanding of the task? Are they just destructively hyper critical and need encouragement to be able to get through the piece and someone to show belief in their abilities.  EVERY student is diferent and even every lesson is different. As teachers we ought to be aware of the student. Clearly we cant know everything but we can ask mildly probing questions like i suggest above to most effectively meet our students where they are at.  You can teach a theoretically perfect lesson but if it dosent engage with the student where they are at - youve missed it.  too often we want quick in and out jobs - lets get them through this or that exam.. but really teaching in its proper sense is much more involved than that.

[sophia92]

well, personally, I think that the student is just too nervour or too shy to play the version in front of you ( maybe ) .

In fact , she/he performs very good at home .
(well, that's what my situation actually = =''

[leahcim]

You know piano can only be taught in person, but you can explain yourself in words.

Well, you understood that, so my job is done

That said, some might think that teaching you was so fast that you were really trying to say something else. As the post you struggled to read said : if you can't be objective, at least be honest.

[leahcim]

I feel very strongly about giving praise and encouragement having not recieved much from at least 5 of my own teachers. It is critical that students see that what they are doing is worth something if you constantly show disappointment or disgust at their playing they will end up depressed as I nearly did.

Yes, but saying something is wrong isn't showing disgust or disappointment. Saying something is right isn't praising it or encouraging it.

That's the objectivity you need to get. In an ideal world. Your piano teacher would tell you what your playing is like, and how to improve it, and because they did that in an objective way - without emotional baggage or "acting disappointed" then you'd eventually trust them to be objective with you and take their comments for what they are - honest comments about your piano playing and a way of improving it.

You'd learn from their honest comments when your playing was good and when it wasn't and develop your own judgement. e.g Folk who are convinced they are bad on the piano didn't need people saying their playing was great, they needed people saying what they playing was really like. "Trust" is the thing, but they may have trusted someone who danced around the truth worrying about feelings and the ratio of praise to encouragement they should give rather than just being honest.

You wouldn't be misled into thinking that bad playing was good because they praised it, nor that bad playing was something to feel negative or bad about.

So when they say "You're making mistakes in that section, slow it down" or whatever, you take that for what it is, it's not saying "Your playing stinks, you are fat and ugly and no one likes you, I'm disappointed"

But in the real world, people, including the teacher, will take their emotional baggage to the lesson. Our poster here gets frustrated by hearing bad playing and thus might say something that isn't objective one day. Similary, his pupil may react to that, or to purely objective criticism in an emotive way because of their past experiences.

I don't think the solution to that is to err in the other direction - to start showering praise on a performance in an attempt to balance some perceived "bad piano teacher history" - if you are going to be disgusted or disappointed or praise them, at least make it an honest reaction, not something you're acting out because it sounds like a good idea to throw your arms in the air and whoop every 3.45 lessons to up moral according to some forum.

Because that, to me, just says that you aren't being objective. If you aren't objective when you say it's right, you probably aren't when you say it's not. That's the message you give. Thus the way they take negative criticism from you may suffer.

Analogy : Imagine you're a dietician, you have a kid and they are overweight to the point of making themselves ill. Do you say (a) "Hey, you're a porky git, who ate all the pies?  Stop eating you greedy sod you disgust me" / (b) "You look beautiful, bonny, it's puppy fat. Everyone is good at something, fitting through a door isn't everything!" or (c) "You weigh 354 lbs  and are 3'5" you need to lose weight because at your height you should weigh between x and y and it's affecting your health. Here's a plan and a bunch of useful. honest and objective stuff to help"?

I think the kid will find lots of people to say (a) and (b), they don't need a piano teacher for that, worse, they might believe the piano teacher that says (a) or (b) more because they are supposed to know.

[Bob]

Hmm....

You know where the mistake is.  The student may not.  They may have practiced it that way and it sounds right.  Or they think it's good enough.

The student might not have a feeling of the pulse, the steady beat.  They might still be developing that.  It's hard to learn when they don't have the beat.  That could be an area to work on.

Hands separate is good.

Slow is good.

A few repetions, correctly, in a row is good.

Daily practice. 

It might be tough for the student to work.  This could really be a challenge for them.  Find something they can do in one sitting and what they can do daily.  It may be something like "just play through it very slowly one time per day with all the correct notes and rhythms with a steady beat."  Hands separate.

It might be in the student's mind.  Check that they are reading it correctly -- clap the rhythm.  Find out if they've got the note names down, etc.

They might not realize it's a mistake.  Or they might not like the piece and don't care if they play it correctly -- maybe they just want to pass the piece off and get to something they like. 

If they don't like the piece or are bored with it, I would emphasize that "as a musician" they don't have to like all the pieces but they still should be able to play the correct notes, rhythms, etc.  They can still play it technically well and be musical without "loving" the piece.

That's where I would start.  Bernhard definitely has ideas on this. 

It could just be a developmental thing.  It's just a 7 year old.  I would be supportive as a teacher -- praise the effort going in regardless of the results, praise good results too.  The process and the results.  Maybe the piece is too difficult for the student?  The do need to be successful and do need to sound good. 

If the student is just bored with the piece, I might just let it go -- the piece I mean.  Tell the student you can tell they're not as interested in the piece -- this and that still aren't quite there but you want to move on to music they find more interesting.  Or, just leave it off their list of assignments -- They might not realize it.  Another thing a previous teacher did was to tell me to stop working on it for now and we would come back to it in a month -- They wrote the assignment down in my notebook several pages into the future blank pages.  Or, you could just tell the student to really focus on wiping out that challenging spot this week -- Make that a top priority.

[counterpoint]

Many people have written many good advices here for better practicing and better teaching.

But perhaps, the case for the problems may be much, much simpler:

it's the way, the student tells you, that he/she doesn't like to play this special piece.

Or even: that he/she doesn't like to play the piano at all.

Do piano teachers ever think about this possibility?

"He/she comes to me, because he/she wants to learn playing the piano"

That's what we think. And in many cases, we are completely wrong.
Many kids come, because their parents want them to learn playing the piano.
Therefore teachers should speak very frankly with the student about whether they really want to learn the instrument. It's so frustrating for the student as for the teacher, if it's only a topic of parents' urge.

[penguinlover]

Talk to the parents. I always tell them that they do more harm than good by forcing a child to play the piano.  When they are older, they may actually want to learn, then you catch that interest at that time.  Teenagers are another story.  I have one that likes the piano, but has so many other things going she has little time to practice.  The parents say that piano comes first, if she doesn't have piano lessons, she has nothing else.  I just work with what she is interested in, and show her how to have fun with it.

[pianowelsh]

Of course im not suggesting that we should praise our students when praise isnt deserved but I think there is something wring with the way we listen if we cannot find something praiseworthy in every students playing even a tiny think .. Then we get to work on fixing and correcting.. but if thats all they hear they get very discouraged.  I do not consider myself to be in anyway overly tolerant of inaccuracies and I expect high standards of playing and practice form my students but I feel that it is important that a student receives a balaned view of how they are playing and not only the negative things.. imagine going into work and the boss never saying thanks or praising you for good work.. you'd get dissolusioned and probably start to care less about your work quality.. how much more so if you are actually paying for the lessons and all you hear is criticism after criticism.  Constructive criticism has its place BUT a student can also make huge progress when you tell them .. ' I thought the way you controlled the dynamics in the last 2 bars was fantastic, really work hard at the first section of the piece this week and see if you can get the same level of control there as you achieved at the end and the performance will be really exciting!'  You havent criticised then, the student feels good about their playing and they have a goal to work towards.. To me it just makes sense to teach in this way. Questions like 'have you practiced this  this week?' 'where you aware you stopped every 4 bars, well really your continuity needs a lot of work etc' Are inclined to make the student feel worthless and that they have wasted their time and money -- which long term isnt good for the teacher although it is easy to say at the time because like it or not we survive on ratings.. If they dont like us they can always ditch us for someone better!

[pizno]

You can fix and correct with out saying 'you are doing this wrong'.  You can say 'Try this', or,
'I love the way you did this, let's just fix that one note and then it will be perfect'.  Or, sit down and show by example.  Have them listen and hear the difference.  Or, ask them to assess their own playing.  Let them figure out on their own that they are making mistakes, or playing badly.  Praise them for giving a good assessment.  Praise them for good listening.  Praise them for coming every week and playing in front of you.  That's not easy!

If we expect our students to practice, independently, every day, they need to feel validated and know that we have faith in them.

Pizno