What I learned during practice today :

[jimbo320]

Are you composing something here? lol

[m1469]

Are you composing something here? lol

Well, yes, actually.  Though, it's final destination isn't here, at least that's not where I'm currently intending for it to go.  But, I'm writing a paper and even though the paper isn't directly about this, it's related and so my mind is sorting it out and it's like it can't stay in me anymore.

And, there's more.  Playing through all of the Mozart sonatas, around the third or fourth one in, I realized that Mozart's music has its own kind of body language, which is pronounced to me since I can feel it in my whole body (though I'm still learning, of course), but of course built upon the text.  And, I have started on my way back through the Bach's inventions, too, and have realized a similar thing, in that text having its own body language, though I still have quite a ways to go.  So, I am supposing right now that each composer, and perhaps each style of writing has its own kind of body language, of course derived from the text, but this is significant to me.  Something that I am reading about recently is regarding the Classic style Sonata, and something that struck me while I was reading was how in the matter of maybe a hundred years, it's like there was this kind of explosion or so in music, with the instrument's evolution itself, and then with composers writing for it, and I'm still trying to piece together a lot of stuff, but the idea of music which is idiomatic to the instrument is on my mind a lot.  I mean, for example, Bach's music is, I think, idiomatic in a very different way than somebody like Chopin's or Debussy's musics were idiomatic, and it's not just a matter of style, though that's entirely related.  It does have to do with the progression of instrumental music in general though.

But anyway, feeling the kind of body language for each composer is really something, as I believe it gives an insight into what those composer's own technique must have been like.  In the years where there was this kind of explosion in the evolution of the instrument and of the music, there were also developing ways of playing the instrument and thoughts on technique, so that's all in there.  I mean, Bach was probably an amazing keyboardist and generally a pretty crazy-good musician, but he probably would've been in pretty foreign territory when he came around in a different century and had to learn Chopin .  Their techniques grew to be quite "limited" to their musical comprehension, and the later we get, the more they benefitted from the others who came before.  Even though Chopin's music involves a very different kind of technique than Bach's, Bach's was a stepping stone of sorts or at least something to more or less grow out of for Chopin, while Bach didn't have the benefit of Chopin's music in his day.

[jimbo320]

Don't take offense at this question but just how many times have you seen the movie Amadeus? Just curious...

[m1469]

Don't take offense at this question but just how many times have you seen the movie Amadeus? Just curious...

Maybe once, years ago ... I don't even know how many ... and I'm not even sure it was it.  Is it about a dog?  Just joking.  I suppose you have a sly reason for asking.

[jimbo320]

A reason yes but not sly. I'm not trying to be arrogant here or anything. I find the way you write to be quit delightful. I was just adding my two cents of humor.

[m1469]

A reason yes but not sly. I'm not trying to be arrogant here or anything. I find the way you write to be quit delightful. I was just adding my two cents of humor.

Oh.  I don't mind your two cents of humor .  Yesterday feels like a really long time ago, for some reason, and I'm not sure what was going on with me, but all of that stuff just started pouring out of me.  Today I feel incredibly (almost ridiculously) intense ... which, can be a good time for humor, I guess.

[becky8898]

I had one of those moments today. It finally dawned on me that no one can teach me to be an Artist. They can teach me Technique, music theory , train my ear, show me the business of music, but thats it. The part that allows someone to enthrall an audience, to electrify it , that comes from inside you. 

I was sitting at the piano practicing chopin etude op 4 #10 which im playing in a recital next month, wondering how fast I should take it within my own skill level , and thinking and listening as I played and all of sudden I knew without a shadow of a doubt, the tempo , the dynamics , all the shaded nuances , I had to decide on, no one could give me some secret formula  to make the piece sound so the audience would be captivated by my performance.

Maybe others knew this already , but its a real break thru for me. 

Cheers, Becky

[m1469]

Ever since I realized that Mozart's music has its own kind of body language built on the text, I've been trying to wrap myself around the idea of each composer having their own kind of language (at least, it's probably most pronounced in "The Greats").  I have a ways to go, I can tell, but I had formerly always thought of "style" in a more abstract and floating concept kind of way, based on theorectical analysis (even though I know that music theory as we know it was an afterthought, of sorts).  And, even though I have intellectually known that style has evolved under human circumstances, I guess I had always thought of "The Greats" as being these individuals who were perhaps just uniquely good at something like a fad or fashion of the day, as though they just looked a little different/better in their bell bottoms or so (hee hee).  In some sense, that may be more or less true (perhaps especially in hindsight), but that's not all there is to it.

What I am being surprised by is how personal their styles were, in fact.  In that, now to be seeing a kind of language to each, I start to see that aside from this particular language reflecting what thoughts on technique may/must have been (either consciously or subconsciously), either of the day or personally, these composer's styles represent their very concept of music in its more total form -- from inception to manifestion in sound, including the ways in which that sound is achieved.  So far I see clearly that Mozart's concept, the place where it actually originates within him, is very different from Bach's, and is very different from Chopin's, and all of those from each other, too.  I mean, Mozart, for example, couldn't even imagine music the way Chopin did, otherwise he would have written in the way Chopin did.

I am playing three Chopin etudes that I would not have originally thought that I would see/feel a link between:  Op. 25 nos. 1, 10, 12.  These seem to all involve fairly differing techniques, but I am surprised to find that I feel as though I can actually find some conceptual thread between them all, in that it's as though I can more or less have a grasp on how Chopin must have thought about music and the instrument in general, and in some ways to whatever his limits are (not that I've reached that place!).

I can't help it, I'm really excited to find out more .

[jimbo320]

Hey Becky,
The state that you finally arrived at is called "Artistic Self Expression". Congrats! This is the level of expression that separates an artist from a mere cover musician. Art is from the heart. Let it fly...

Musically, Jimbo

[m1469]

My overly simplistic summation of Classical music as a body:

What goes up must come down, and oftentimes vice versa.

Sometimes it does this in terraces, sometimes point by point and within a motive, measure by measure, sometimes in sweeping lines, sometimes page by page or section by section or from the beginning to the end.  When confronted with a piece, there are two questions:  Where does it go up and how?  Where does it go down and how?

Maybe I'll change my mind soon.  

[m1469]

ooops, I'm here again  .

It's been mentioned here before in some Bernhard's posts about having a measuring stick to be able to measure progress, and I've never felt exactly as though I know how to have one.  My insides feel something like a perpetual curiosity and so, oftentimes, I may feel for a moment as though I've grasped something, but then it brings more curiosities and there isn't necessarily a feeling of just being settled, despite the fact that (I see now) I may have actually gained in skill.

Reading through the Mozart's Fantasia and Sonata in c minor was a kind of measuring stick for me to gauge what I've been up to for ... years (now).  And, I can see quite clearly that I have gained a different kind of tool-set (sorry to call it), or, okay, skill-set (shy to call it) in the last few years (and last two and a half especially) than when I was first playing this piece.  While there was joy in that for me, somehow I was actually a little intimidated by this as I've been realizing more clearly what that skill-set includes, and how much there is to pull together at once in order to play a piece of music well.  I realize I need to not be intimidated though and just keep moving forward.

Something that has also been rumbling around for me is this distinction between instinct and intellect, and I have sat myself down this morning to try in earnest to be better about pragmatically addressing problem spots in some of my pieces, and hopefully solving those (for good?).  When I first joined the forum, I read about "the intuitive method" etc. vs. pragmatic method of learning, and in short, after having spent years in what I would consider a more strictly intuitive method and then some substantial time in what I would consider a more strictly intellectual method, I believe each only gets us so far without the other.  So, in my own private world of today, I have realized that, to me, a pragmatic method does and probably must include both intuition (or instinct) as well as intellect.  It is possible to be pragmatic about instinct, I think!

In any respect, this morning I realize that I really may be starting to discern the difference between instinct and intellect and that yes, I feel I need both and desire both.  How to integrate them ... I'll aim to be pragmatic, I guess.

[m1469]

I think your body is much closer to your heart, and to your ideas, than any equipment.

Okay, I'm currently in the middle of practicing and your post was reminded to me. What I see is that, yes, my body is indeed much closer to my heart and ideas than mere equipment is/would be (that's actually slightly arguable, when considering the rest of my reasoning in this post, too, but for the sake of ease I just agree).  So, the kind of "precipice" I'm on at the moment in my thoughts on practicing and learning today have to do with the ideas themselves being so close to me that they are essentially my own.  I feel I must make a point here of saying that, just because I need to see how an idea is my own does NOT mean I don't ever need or want guidance, and I don't feel those are truly mutually exclusive.  

But, I need to make the ideas my own, regardless of how they have been presented to me, and that will be ultimately unique to me and my relationship with music.  I can see that the closer my thought is, the closer my ear and heart and all of that, the closer my hands will be, too, to the point of being synonymous (utlimately, they are always synonymous to what I'm thinking/feeling).  So, basically, if my hands/fingers don't feel close enough, then the idea needs to become closer and not just be something outside of myself that I'm trying to pound into myself.

[pianowolfi]

ooops, I'm here again  .

Why does he blush? Welcome, keep 'em coming

[linzi]

Well..... I'm learning Petites Litanies de Jesus for my ABRSM GRade 6 (gorgeous piece ) and I'd never heard of that composer before. I actually kind of memorized a big chunk  and made it sound nice by using this amazing website called E-MusicMaestro that has a whole section that tells you how to practice so you actually learn something - awesome!!! You have to pay to use the whole website  but the bit I wanted was free  its at https://bit.ly/hl29Tp

[m1469]

I think monsty's getting a second wind.  Today was okay, but I was so entirely exhausted from last week that I had this deep kind of tiredness that made me feel like my whole body would fall asleep in a flash.  I'm going to try to go to sleepies early tonight and see how monsty's doing tomorrow.  Lots to accomplish .

You know what's strange?  Intellectually it seems I may be learning some new things, or gaining insights or something, but it's almost as though the deeper they are, the more it feels like I'm remembering rather than acquiring something new.  Along those lines, the more piano stuff aligns with me now, the more I remember what I felt like sitting at the piano and thinking about the piano when I was a little child.  It's like, I'll have these moments in learning something in particular about piano, and then memories from childhood will follow.  The bigger and more intense my learning is, the bigger and more intense my memory of childhood is -- nothing bad, just remembering being me as a child.

*tries not to think too much about it*

Today were as though one huge part of me had to catch up to another huge part of me.  Sometimes that feels uncomfortable, but by now I can say to myself "Oh, that's just you recalibrating, it feels really strange for awhile, and then it will be okay."

Why does he blush? Welcome, keep 'em coming

Oh, why, thank you Wolfi .

[m1469]

Oh yeah, and not very long ago I had this intense desire to share.  I still want to.  Deep down, I have always wanted to.  And, sometimes I look out my window in the past few days, and I wonder about other people in the world.  And, I wonder, does anybody in the whole world feel in a same sort of way that I feel about the piano?  Do you and you and you?

*asks people*

I mean, what does it actually feel like to you??  For a long time as a child, I wanted to know what things were like for other people.  I was just really curious and interested.  It's like I feel that way again.  Well, in many ways I still think that way, I want to try to understand things from their perspective.  But, I mean, what if you just really saw things through somebody else's eyes for a bit.  And, you just felt their metaphysical insides?  Sometimes I think that's happening or so.  But, I do wonder, is that what lots of other people think?  Who knows.  Lately, in the past several months or maybe less, I have this thought.  I mean, it's related to another kind of thought from years before, but it goes like this:  what if these two individuals kept existing at different times within the world, but somehow they knew each other's existence all the time?  Like, they could always feel that other person or so, but their lives kept missing each other, century after century or so, and they didn't formally meet but just felt each other's existence.  And, they left secret messages to each other in one century, so that when the person came around in the other cenutry, they would discover the message and leave a message in that lifetime and it kept going like that until one time, by some stroke of ... something colorful and wonderful ... they actually existed at the same time and met?

[pianowolfi]

Yes! I am on the search of such messages, well, not desperately, but I will be very happy to find one I even found some in my musical endeavors, but I never found a physical one. I just don't remember enough yet...

[m1469]

Yes! I am on the search of such messages, well, not desperately, but I will be very happy to find one I even found some in my musical endeavors, but I never found a physical one. I just don't remember enough yet...

Perhaps there is a message for all of us who seek one .

I am currently in a huge ocean.  Some things have come clear to me, and of course the view is gorgeous, and those views help many things to align, but then I see also more mountaintops, too.  Lots and lots of mountaintops  .  I guess it's a really good thing I love hiking .

*laces hiking shoes*  ... wait, who says I have to actually hike?  Why not fly?  Okay, that's not what this post is about.

Something that is constantly on my mind is this concept of learning (specific things, as well as generally) as a child.  One thing that I believe is coming more clear to me recently is that music and piano are deeper than brain and muscle activity.  Well, I want to say it's more fundamental than those, but I feel I am currently wearing out the term, so for now I say "deeper" (but I really mean fundamental ... haha).

I wonder, for one, what is the typical "problem" of the maturation of a child prodigy?  I've been wondering this for actually a long time, in different intervals, but especially more in the past couple of months, and even more still in the past several days.  My thesis is, and perhaps this view is what is shared by others, as well, that the basic problem is that something specific develops within the individual at an early age that becomes a kind of problem for them to overcome later on.  To put it one way, to learn perhaps huge amounts of the repertoire at a very early age gives a child, in particular, a more or less false idea that they see something clearly when in years to come, everything must actually change on a very deep (well, fundamental) level, and that change is too scary, or even more, it's too difficult for even the body, to have take place.  

If that is true, I wonder how "good" it is to learn so much so young?  There's something I can't quite put my finger on just yet, but my thoughts are not based just on observation of other people, but on trying to figure out my own sort of maze (though, I am not suggesting that I myself was the classic kind of child prodigy), as I have become very aware of my views as a child, and where some things need changing and growth on that level, and in general terms, why they need changing.

[caioramos]

Well, you have to take in consideration the concept that even thou 2 kids can be called prodigy they are different. Its a statement that is real for everyone despite age, as well as kids. So with that in mind, that everyone has its own set of qualities and difficulties, its very hard to assume in a general way whats "right" or "wrong" to teach for them.

One might be able to understand deep in music very early, while the other may have superb technique but struggles to express himself. The maturation process depends a lot too, and has no single cause.

So you see, making general statements is really complex and non accurate, each case is a case, each student is a student. One can say that there are things you just learn from years of experience, but maybe for that particular kid he doesn't need that much, and he just brought that essence to this life. Its like the great composers of the past. As you said, there are more than brain ans muscles involved. I believe, in the case of a great composer, that their genius is a product of many past lives of preparation and training, its certainly something so big that no one can do in just one. Every talent one has is something already worked previously. So its just a matter of awakening in this one, the same way for a prodigy.

Than, maybe the hardest part of being a teacher is been able to be this kind of Radar, and perceive what to do to every type of student, be able to conceive his abilities and work with then properly with no general rule.


Caio

[m1469]

Thank you for your thoughts and for taking the time to post them.  I do definitely agree with what you say and it does give me food for thought.  In my own teaching, one of the things I strive for is to treat every individual as just that, exactly as an individual.  At the same time, I believe there are actual, spiritual absolutes (for lack of better wording) that comprise our creative abilities (to put it abstractly  ).  

Aside from the myriad of things my post above arose from, there are a few parts in particular that led me to word it the way that I did.  One is that, in another thread here regarding Kissin (and Lang Lang), Kissin was referred to as having a classic case of having been a child prodigy, and that something about this has stunted his growth, so to speak.  So, if that concept actually is something, the classic case of being a child prodigy, I wonder what that actually is considered to be?

Now it gets more complicated for me, personally, because I feel I have two very distinct views on learning to play.  1)  Having made deep connections and enjoyed a truly musical relationship with the instrument from my earliest memories, on a level that many children and perhaps even adults never do.  2)  Having not had traditional formal training almost at all until I reached University (with the exception of about 2 years in adolescence), and therby facing a lot of the same sorts of mental obstacles that a late starter might face.

Of course, there is loads more in between those and outside of those and such.  One question though that I wonder then, both as a teacher who cares about my students and about music and piano very much, as well as being an individual with these two strange perspectives on learning, is what is truly essential for a child, in particular, to learn?  And, also what is harmful?

Something that I have had to become aware of and learn how to deal with intelligently is how to actually alter my basic perceptions of sensation, and that actually involves going back in my mind to when I was a child sitting at the piano.  This is something I am doing on both a conscious and subconscious level, but something which I feel is essential to my growth right now.  Of course, there is so much to all of that and I am realizing so much based on this, but I am also very aware that my biggest motivation to actually bother to do this is mainly because of the bond I feel with the instrument and with music.  If it weren't ultimately for those, I probably would've been able to quit for good a long time ago.  Well, not even "probably".

ha ha ... there is actually too much to all of that to go any further for now.  So, I slink back to te piano and to my scales, my lovely, lovely scales, for now.

Oh yeah, one more thing.  I do realize that everybody is dealing with a set of seeming limitations when it comes to learnig about the piano and music (and most anything in life).  I believe these are mostly mental with physical evidence to back up the mental belief, and much of it is connected with what earthly mentalities that we are bombarded with as human beings, but I know these have seemingly unique effects on us as individuals.  However, I feel there are certain expectations for different categories of learners.  So, a child prodigy in the classic sense faces certain expectations that an adult or later or "normal" learner doesn't face.  And, even though there are no guarantees, I think it's generally expected that a child prodigy is going to grow up and do these amazing, super-human things with their amazing super-human talent.  At some point, that becomes A LOT to deal with, I would imagine.  While, everybody else seems to face the expectation that they won't achieve much at all.  Those are generalities, yes, but it seems they are in fact general attitudes which get filtered into learning for people in one form or another.

What I am ultimately trying to get at and figure out, is that music has much less to do with all of the common beliefs than what are associated with where the origins of those expecatations come from.

OKAY, NOW back to the piano.  

[caioramos]

I love how m1469 likes to write full bibles of thoughts!! thats amazing!  

To the topic, well It seems these days I cant go much into depth of something without relating too much on philosophy or metaphysical studies that I love. So, what I think is, again, because the fact of everyone is unique, it makes it all relative. What I mean is, some kids (and adults too later on) comply better than others to family pressure and such stuff. Its all psychological, for some, those who have a strong personality trait of self achievement and external acceptance will feel much of a burden with those expectations upon him.

But whats interesting is that all of that reflects the parents, so its pretty much guaranteed that if you have any student who charges himself a lot its because their parents are the same.

From my beliefs I can tell you that in your case, been so intimate to the piano is not something you developed just now in this life, its a spiritual bond. What happens is that some people are born in a family environment that is supportive for it, and some dont. I mean, If you make a research on the great composers almost all of then had musical influence at home, one of the parents played, or was a musician, or at least had interest and wanted the child to learn.

You can have all the talent but if your not in the right place you make waste of it, at least for your childhood where you dont have much of a choice. And now it makes you wonder what your life would have been if you had been supported to play or make a career out of piano since you were young, probably your life would be much different from now, and maybe thats not what your spirit wanted from you. I believe we choose where we born in accordance to our evolution goals.

Im one who believes you can do it if your meant to it. I mean, I dont have any talent to be an engineer, so Im not even trying. Its like, if your an apple tree your not giving any oranges and thats it. But, im fond to music, I have talent, even the slightest I would had, I believe I can make it with no limitations, it  depends just on me to apply and work hard for that even thou people may say Im too old already (25).

All of this is very complex and I dont think Im making myself very clear as I would like, but I believe expectation can be good or bad, it depends on how the child already cope with that, whats his background, the parents, the personality, it can go either way with music development.  

Caio


PS: I forgot to talk about whats harmful at teaching and what is good. I think the best thing is making the most confortable possible for a student. I mean, you probably will not be able to express your soul if your playing a piece that doesnt touches you inside, that you truly likes and indentify yourself. I think the musical learning process should be fun no matter what, because its directly connected to motivation, which is a huge factor to take into consideration, one the biggest, if your not totally motivated for doing it, your not doing your best.

So when teaching, it could be considered harmful imo to make the student play pieces he doesnt like, or even, approach with a teaching method thats not compatible with him like, theres a lot who doesnt like playing scales up and down for technique development. Well, lets get a way around it and practice with pieces. Which turns out to be something truly essential.

[m1469]

I love how m1469 likes to write full bibles of thoughts!! thats amazing!  

I'm not sure I know what that means, but if you are somehow even slightly amused or something like that, I guess I'll take it .

I do not fully disagree with what you wrote.  There are many things that I do agree with, especially on a certain level.  I will say though that I don't think spirituality is actually human, at least not at its origin, just like I don't believe music is sound, exactly, at its starting point.  I don't necessarily even believe they are human concepts, at least not in origin, but that's a different subject, but I want to state my thoughts all the same.

I was in fact born into a family who supported very much my spiritual growth, and who supported my ability to think and reason and do anything in life from a spiritual standpoint, and I can see why I would've chosen that.  As it turns out, though many people would not describe me as having been born into a classic musical family, in many ways I was (depending on how you view music, too, to some degree).  To get even more precisely to the point, in fact, many of my improvisations growing up were built upon basic patterns that my mom showed me when I was very young.  For example, from my perception, I must have been born being able to play an octave, because I can't remember not having that in my LH in particular, even though I intellectually know that must not be true.

Very recently and very consciously, I had to recall that my basic perception of the piano when I was young included some very specific things, and you could say that, aside from the fundamentals of music which I somehow discovered on the piano itself, my repertoire consisted of a very limited set f different patterns that I learned how to play in many places on the instrument.  Ah, this is so huge it's very difficult to write.  Let me try though.  There were, of course, pros and cons.  A pro was that I have this bond, that yes, was probably made before I was born, but for the sake of ease, let's say it developed in my youth a I explored the piano.  I also developd a very basic understanding about the instrument which helped me make music from my imagination throughout my growing up.

Cons would be (if I wasn't careful), that my entire perception of playing became stunted with these patterns, to some degree, and nothing else has felt quite right because of that.  Firstly, I had to recognize this, secondly I had to go back and correct it (and I'm still in the process of developing it).  As I am doing so, I have realized that in order to play new patterns (okay, let's sa the Appassionata is a pattern, haha), my entire posture, my entire perception of the instrument, everything had to evolve.  And, its such a potent evolution, that it actually seems to physically and mentally affect my entire being.  I realized recently, very distinctly, that it severely stirs me to the very last fiber of my being, and aside from how I personally deal with that (which I do have to be strategic about), it is indicative of much more, from a learning and flat out human standpoint.

hmmm... bye bye again for now!

[m1469]

Oh, and I have to add that, the what ifs are ceasing as I am able to more fully realize what is inside of me, becasue they are becoming truly irrelevant to my life.  Not because one would never know the answer, but because I can clearly see that learning is not a straight line.  I would not trade my current teachers for a different path, though I don't wish to scare anybody into thinking that I am not open to whatever is next.  But, I adore my current path .

[caioramos]

One question, are you Pisces?

[m1469]

One question, are you Pisces?

Nopety .


Okay, recently I have decided or perhaps rather "realized" that you can actually describe very much about a composition in words, but its meaning or music is something that can only be expressed in action.

[m1469]

I'm pondering the idea, and I think it's probably a right idea, that one doesn't aim for perfect playing (at least not as a first step), but rather perfect concepts.  But, is that even possible?  One of the things that I feel I struggle with is that my concepts are always changing and shifting, and even if there is something about it all that is improving, it's not as though the concepts stay perfectly still and I can just trace it perfectly in my actions.  And, I don't know if I am aiming at something that I am destined to fail at, or what.  Right now, I just don't even know what perfect concepts even are!  What do they look like?  Sound like?  Feel like?  I don't know!  

But, okay, back to my thinking board.  BYE!

[m1469]

Okay, so, I just got up from sir piano.  What a nice dude  !  I think I realized that, perfect concepts exist in action.  They have to; it's their very nature as, I believe, stagnation is not in their nature.  But, what I still don't understand is that, there can be this kind of goldeny, glowing concept somewhere in idea land (okay, maybe in intellect(?)), but then it's not a full concept until it exists in action?  There has to be a connecting point that makes it all one thing!  I still don't understand.  Well, something makes sense when I am playing though!  BYE!

[m1469]

Is all music a kind of counterpoint, actually?

[m1469]

Skill is not the same thing as a reason and cause for playing.

[ongaku_oniko]

Not so much during practise, or even about the piano.

But I had always been a little proud, thinking that I know a hell lot more about real music than 99% of the world, that most people cannot understand real music and resort to listening to the trash that is rap, rock, etc.

But recently I've began to change, feeling that some forms of popular music nowadays are not all completely bad.

But after coming here, I completely realized just how completely ignorant about music I am myself. Compared to the people here, I'm not any better than the other 99% of the people who don't know anything beyond fur elise. Perhaps even worse, since I didn't realize just how igorant I was until now. I'm frankly amazed at the level of the people here.

Not just the level of their piano playing, but truly, it seems that their passion and love for piano makes them a lot more mature. Becky is the perfect example.

I also always thought that pianists who start when they're like 3 and go to music schools that only teach for half a day are don't know anything but music. But here I see 12 year olds who write more eloquently than I do. It seems that many people here are very knowledgable in things outside of classical music. I guess people who have the drive to succeed in music has the drive to succeed in everything. They perfect everything they do. A part of me is in awe. But another part of me feels so ashamed of my immaturity and arrogance. And that a 12 year old has done much more with her life than I probably will in my lifetime. But then again, at the same time, as if you guys are angels showing me the way, I feel this hope, and this happiness, that I will be able to improve and at least do a little bit to improve myself.

[m1469]

For some reason it lately surprises me that I have to go two pages back to find this thread, when I feel as though I had just posted in it the other day or so!  

Anyway, today I realized, very quietly but very assuredly, something that I've been deeply needing to come to terms with.  It is simply that, of course I want to take the next step(s) in my studies and development.  I've been trying to sort out where I am now because my life feels different than it used to, and while I don't have the same perspective on it that perhaps my teachers do, I do have a sense of there being a next chapter unfolding in my life.

Well, I actually realized this as I was on a walk this morning and then chose to sit on a big cement thing and watch airplanes after airplanes coming in for landings (that was cool ), and I could hear and see the highway, on which I am situated just at the very brink ... yet, funnily enough leads into hundreds of miles of just openness (which I am also just on the brink of)... and I could hear the birds, too, as though I were in the middle of nature.  And, I could see the mountains in back of the city ... and the sky was amazing ... and, I just nicely got this realization in just the way I needed it.  Anyway, I don't know where this leads, but of course I want to take a next step.

Today I read a quote by someone on facebook that was just exactly a nice thing for me to read by Martin Luther King -- "Faith is taking the first step-- without seeing the whole staircase."  I like that.

[m1469]

I'm lovin' me some slow practicin'  .

[jollisg]

I have done a wrong note in "Frühlingsrauschen" that I've fixed today. That feels great. It had become a habit to play the wrong note, so I'm happy that I've fixed it

I've done some group practice (when you overdrive the tempo in small groups of notes to speed the piece up and still got all the notes clear) on Rachmaninoffs prelude in c sharp minor and some melody-prectising.

It's a lot more I've practiced today, but that's the main things.

[pianowolfi]

I'm lovin' me some slow practicin'  .

Yeah isn't that cool, and great, and just enjoyable I just wonder how to convince some of my speedy students of this pleasure....

[m1469]

Yeah isn't that cool, and great, and just enjoyable I just wonder how to convince some of my speedy students of this pleasure....

This week I'm a speedy!

[hastur]

First I must say that this thread is absolutely delightful! Great idea!

What I learned today:
I found out that I had been playing a phrase completely wrong, missing notes, even! Shame on me.. And I also found out that sheet music for singing is really weird and makes no sense what-so-ever when trying to translate it for piano.

[m1469]

First I must say that this thread is absolutely delightful! Great idea!

Glad you think so and thanks for contributing!


Well, I think my whole mind is going in a kind of new direction, which is nice and needed!  This "Baby Pieces" project is opening up WAY more in me than I could have initially imagined, for some reason.  I guess it's maybe really a good step for me right now! 

The most concise way of putting my current thoughts is that of aiming to discern the difference between what truly makes a piece of music easy, vs. difficult.  And, I thought that the classic answer (if I posed a question) would be "Practice".  Well, no, that's not it, exactly, I have decided.  On the surface, sure, maybe that could be an easy form of an answer.  But it's much more specific than that.  Of course, it's RELATED to practice, but it's definitely more along the lines of how we are using the time spent towards learning our pieces.  Which is, of course, linked to the idea of the way(s) in which we practice, and not just the fact that we sit at the piano and make the keys go.

So, I guess I am aiming then to see what it is, specifically that we are developing in practice?  I think it's "clear ideas" ... I mean, I think that the main aim of time spent in practice is/should be to always be gaining a more precise mental impression of the pieces we are working on.  That mental impression includes everything under the sun that we might be aiming to express within the music.  What makes a piece "easy" is more specifically, I think, very clear mental images.  The more clear the image is, the "easier" the piece no matter how "difficult" the outer surface of the piece may seem.  So, in a way, there are not actually easy and difficult pieces, there are only differences between crystal clear ideas and somehow unclear and muddy ones, I think.  At least that seems right based on what I understand so far.

Even in my "Baby Pieces" there is probably more I could theoretically do with them in my performances of them.  But, the point is, I am actually capable because the concepts are not difficult for me to grapple with.  So, I am trying to maybe pinpoint what it is that clouds my thinking when I am presented with a piece that is supposed to be difficult.  Even though flat-out skill is involved both in demonstrating music as well as in developing concepts about music, and skill is also very mental, there is also the issue of mental doubts (and probably fears) that get in the way, too.  When I work on music that is considered to be advanced, I feel a responsibility to know more than I think I already do.  I mean, I start getting caught up in feeling all sorts of things (much of which has been rooted in feeling like I don't have the necessary formal steps in my childhood).  And, that getting caught up in that is part of the cloudy affect that is not helpful!

What I think I am realizing, though, is that we are more or less getting 'fit' for music, but what really defines our placement in the repertoire, where we "belong" and what pieces are right for us and such, is not actually fundamentally about our formal footsteps in getting there.  It is more about what is inside of us to be expressed, to be developed, the level of love and interest we may have or that is waiting to be discovered, and then having the skill to express what needs to be expressed.  An easy piece is one in which that is all readily clear, and sure, hopefully practice is making those aspects more clear to us.

Well, this is me swimming through some new channels in thinking, aiming to get things more cleared up!  I guess I'm still chewing on these things, so if a reader has any particular thought on some of this, I welcome it with open arms!

[mnmleung]

There are pieces I have fudged for a long time, simply because I label certain sections as difficult, worth looking at "later".  And I let myself get distracted from sitting down calmly and just exploring...

I find your explanation of difficulty of a piece in terms of the "clear ideas" helpful, m1469.  Thank you.

[m1469]

There are pieces I have fudged for a long time, simply because I label certain sections as difficult, worth looking at "later".  And I let myself get distracted from sitting down calmly and just exploring...

I find your explanation of difficulty of a piece in terms of the "clear ideas" helpful, m1469.  Thank you.

Thanks for your thoughts and for that feedback!

Yes, I think the main two ideas that stand out to me out of everything I ranted about yesterday ( ) are:

1.  Clear ideas vs. unclear ideas inplace of thinking about easy vs. difficult passages/pieces, etc.
2.  Making everything sound like a "Baby Piece"


Today, I am attacking(!) it all like a tigress (grrrrrr ... meow ... grrrrrr) and aiming to really define 'clarity' to myself.  That's the next "bump" to see through, I think, for me.  What does it mean to me to have a passage be crystal clear?

So, I am asking myself this (even outloud b/c that's different for me than just thinking it) during and after a session:

1.  Is it more clear to you?

And looking to the following areas:

1.  Are the individual notes more clear?
2.  Are the groups of notes more clear?
3.  Is the overall line more clear as a complete idea?
4.  Is the complete idea clear in how it fits with the whole piece?

And, thinking about those questions in the following aspects of playing:

1.  Sound
2.  Physical ability
          -  Checking in with motion efficiency
          -  Posture/where I need to be in relation to the piano
          -  something

3.  How it look on the keys
          -  Do my eyes know where they are going on the keyboard?
          -  Do my eyes know what my hands are doing?


hmmmm... BYE!

[m1469]

Project (I'm gonna)Attack(you) is going well!  I post my thoughts:

1.  When I dissected a passage and started clarifying individual parts, to the point where I could sing or articulate with my mouth sound in rhthym for that specific part (similarly to being able to sing one voice of counterpoint while playing the other), while playing the other (which means I had to learn it separately, first), the passage got easier and even easy in general, to play, even though I was aiming at clarification over anything else.

2.  I have to accept that this works, I can dig WAY into this, and never ever look back.  Never practice with any other mindset ever again.  NEVER.  I change right now, today, forever, and only grow from here.  I declare it!

*speeds away*

[mnmleung]

Hmmm singing one part and playing the rest ... have not tried it, but have heard of teachers encouraging my friends to do the same years ago.

Yesterday I was looking for anything about Friedman's edition of Mendelssohn's Songs without words.  Accidentally came across Maurice Hinson's practice suggestions for the same work.  He quoted:

Think ten times and play once. (Liszt)

I have not heard of / read this before.  I think it ties in well with your idea of clarity, and often the work is done away from the keyboard.

[m1469]

Hmmm singing one part and playing the rest ... have not tried it, but have heard of teachers encouraging my friends to do the same years ago.

Yesterday I was looking for anything about Friedman's edition of Mendelssohn's Songs without words.  Accidentally came across Maurice Hinson's practice suggestions for the same work.  He quoted:

Think ten times and play once. (Liszt)

I have not heard of / read this before.  I think it ties in well with your idea of clarity, and often the work is done away from the keyboard.

Thanks for the reminder about mental practice.  I am suddenly hitting some kind of bump in my thoughts on practicing, and I think it's mainly because I am wanting to do a better job, so I'm addressing something that's been there all along but I haven't felt I could address.  There is this strange grey area for me where I feel like there is just this ball of something really messy and it's like I don't know what to do with it.  It's like I am not sure what strategies to take, despite the fact that I have collected information over the years, I have lots of trial and error under my belt, and I currently have fantastic teachers.  So, maybe it's just that I am now aiming to take everything to a new level, so of course that means that I need to take my practicing strategies to a new level, too!  Even though I've done mental practicing in the past and in some way it's a regular part of my routine, I've also not been developing it much, per se, either ... at least not on purpose.  And it's as though right now I'm in some new phase of trying to understand what kind of efforts produces what kind of results, and I feel unsure if I know how to get to where I want to go, probably because I'm not sure where I'm going! haha.   I have to let go of something in order to find out.

I have in my mind that the superstar pianists and pianists like my teachers have this really clear concept of exactly how to tackle a piece.  And, I guess I keep "looking" for some kind of checklist so I can finally tell myself I am prepared and I know what I am doing and I belong on stage ... to give the full idea!  But, it's like that's where the ball of confusion comes in, I suppose because it seems there is always more that can be done!  But, how does a person really get to a point where they can seriously karate chop a piece of music (okay, not actually karate chop it)?  Where they can just walk out on stage and play the you know whaty out of it?  What is that road?

Okay.  Thanks!  You, mnmleung are obviously not responsible for answering those questions, but I guess your comments have just helped me break through whatever I'm breaking through!  If you have more to post, great!  If not, it's okay, too .

[m1469]

hmmm ... Ok.  I think that in order to seriously play a piece of music in a way that the performer is in command, it is found in no other way than the musical ideas being crystal clear.  Are there infinite ways to clarify those ideas?  I don't really know.  But, even if there are, I suppose that's not an excuse to leave it murky!  

So, I will stay focused on clarity of ideas, and I will utilize mental practicing, I will keep the sound of my pianistic voice as confidently playing in my ears, and I will have everything I do be with that sound in mind.  The final result in mind.  Something tells me, though, that the final result will be experienced differently than I can imagine it or that what I can imagine now is a poor version of the final result and could actually keep me back from reaching it ... haha ... this is a bad, bad, bad mental loop I get myself caught up in!  I guess it's good to recognize and avoid.  Okay.  So, clear images, but elastically clear images, avoid the loop!

That's my plan.  I do have a mind of my own, of course, and I know that I am putting in the work and thinking about what my teachers pass onto me in my own ways, but I don't want to give off the idea that I am re-inventing the wheel or that I think I am.  Many thanks to my teachers and other individuals, always many thanks .  

[hastur]

Last night before going to sleep I read through Bernhard's posts on sight reading and ideas of the grand staff. Without exaggerating, my mind was blown. What I had been doing prior to last night wasn't reading music, it was merely painstakingly DECIPHERING music. I finally have something tangible that I can practice over the next couple weeks/months until my teacher gets a slot open for me, yay!

[m1469]

*Geez*  I can't stay out of this thread!  But, I think this is really important for me, so here I am again!

Okay.  Part of the grey murky thing in me has been this feeling as though no matter what I do, no matter how hard I try, there will always be more or it will never be enough.  Maybe that is at least partly true, but I *think* I've realized that it is ONLY *PARTLY* true!  That is major for me right now, and I've never had the precise clarity of thought to be able to start really sorting it out.  What I'm realizing right now is not at all rocket science, but just important for me to be realizing right now.  There are *some* aspects of playing which can be infinitely defined, yes.  But, there are some which are actually only so definable.  So, there is a difference between certain elements and some are static, and some are (maybe infinitely) dynamic.

Yes, I am spending some nice time in mental play today and it's been very helpful for several reasons.  But, here I will define (for myself if not for anybody else) what CAN be defined for once and for all, for the most part:

Static-- I can build a mental image as clearly as it's ever going to be:

~  Notes on page.
~  Rhythms.
~  Notes/keys on piano.
~  The fundamental sounds of each key and key combination (not what it *means*, necessarily).
~  Visual aspect of my hands/fingers sitting on particular keys or in certain positions.
~  Written dynamics.
~  Written articulations.

Slightly less static, but principled:

~  Fingering
~  General/larger motions which tend to umbrella smaller ones.  These may be refined, but there is a principle which remains the same.
~  General posture and body positioning.
~  Dexterous sensations.
~  Historical/stylistic/(some) theoretical characteristics

Dynamic:

~  What it all means or communicates in the moment.

So, in mental practice and in building clear images, there is in fact A LOT about it all that I can clarify almost entirely!  What will always change, at least slightly, is the musical experience and meaning, and part of that being precise characteristics of the sound in motion.  I mean, of course, of course(!) that's how it works!  But, I thought that this sense of movement and motion that I've always felt about it, I've thought that means that I will never be able to gain a static, crystal clear concept of ANY of it.  haha.  I've talked about a related thing in this thread before, but this time my quandary is being answered!

Back to piano .

[m1469]

Today, while I was away from the piano and on a hike, actually, but thinking about everything piano and music (which is almost always what I am doing when I'm not actually playing), it suddenly hit me that a person *has* to use their imagination to make music at the piano.  And, I don't just mean that it sounds nicer or has meaning or whatever if a person actually uses their imagination, but rather that there is no other way to make actual music than to use an imagination.  The piano itself, in strictly material terms, is just wood and strings and all the parts that comprise it.  If we had no imagination to do something with those parts (though, somebody obviously had a musical imagination to have thought of it), it would forever remain as just those material parts.  It's sort of like legos ... if you don't have any sort of imagination about what to do with these things, they won't be anything at all but plastic parts.  I think the piano is no different, and when we decide to make music with these parts (including the tones) comprising the instrument, we are using our imagination to create something that wouldn't otherwise exist.

Today my mind could not stop from there.  But, my typing will .

[m1469]

Aiming to know when to use what weapon for which scenario.  hmmm.

[countrymath]

I envy you, m1469.

I can do mental play for 2 bars only. Nothing more.

[m1469]

I envy you, m1469.

I'm sorry, I'm not sure how to respond to this one.  I feel like I'm supposed to respond though, becuase I feel like it's a compliment of some sort, and I appreciate that, but I am not sure what you are saying that about!  

I can do mental play for 2 bars only. Nothing more.

Well, we are always doing mental play of some sort, and that's directly tied to what is being communicated to the listener (at least to a discerning ear).  If we have crystal clear musical ideas, that can be heard ... if our mind is drifting off into recipes for cakes, that can be heard, too!  But, either way, the sound is always reflecting what our mind is doing.

But, I think for me, right now, is that it's like I have to take another new approach suddenly.  And, I'm not even sure why, exactly, other than I have listened live to a wonderful pianist yesterday, and to some people's recordings around here, and that is instigating a different frame of mind for me, and then last week's practicing.  Last week was 'about' deep mental images (well, I mean ultra clear, not deep in the sense of emotional content, etc.).  But, it was like moving at a snail's pace.  I've had some good insights as a result, but it's like I need a different form of work as a result, or something.  I can actually play better overall as a result of very focused and deep mental work in sections last week.  But, it's like the impulse to play is beckoning in a way that is not just me being lazy about mental practicing, but it's like I need to follow this impulse because now I need to demonstrate something higher in my overall ability.  And, I have this overall kind of sound in my inner ear that is beckoning me to play.  So, it's like I have a bit of a different strategy as of today than last week, and it's like I have a different perception, too.

Right now, I feel like that kind of ultra deep mental imaging is something extremely useful and I will want to have entire pieces on that level, but I'm thinking that at the moment, I need to reserve it now for passages which need special work, or even just between two "notes" in a transition that I might be troubled by.  So, I'm trying to separate out, I guess, what are truly "problem spots" for me at this point, vs. what I can already play reasonably, and then how to deal with those all within a kind of timeframe of my day and of the week.  argh.  That was even hard for me to write about!!

Piano is beckoning.

[m1469]

Here is an audio example of what I am talking about in my post above.  The first clip is the first page of Chopin's Etude, Op. 25 no. 6 from today (about 10 minutes ago).  It's like I just suddenly had a whole different perception of how to play it and it's as though I just could.  The second clip is from 3 days ago and was the best I could do as of that day.  Overall, I have this hunch, this intuition that I can maybe make the whole piece like my first page of today (and I'll go back to it after this post).  I guess I'm just trying to sort things out.  I feel the impulse to now see what I can play through the whole piece like this, and then deal with the problem spots from a different premise.  I don't *think* I am imagining it.  I've listened to the one from three days ago again, and while one of the bigger differences between them is tempo, it's something more than that, too, I think, and I suspect it's audible.

Anyway, I'm just trying to further clarify some things here and not leave something messy within myself.