What I learned during practice today :

[marik1]

I hope I don't sound rude...

Isn't it rude to write such a long message?  I always thought if one cannot put an idea, whatever it is (even if entire piano technique) in one short sentence then most probably that idea is not worth it...

Best, M

[m1469]

For me to write succinctly in a way that I can understand about my own concept of technique is one thing, but there is no magic number of words -few or great- that will guarantee a comprehensive and meaningful communication between two people. If technique could be meaningfully explained from person to person in one sentence, then there would be no need for lessons, and along the same vein, I certainly don't find it rude not to learn everything there is to learn within a single, succinct lesson.  

[goldentone]

It actually IS rude to write such a long message. Again, if one cannot put an idea, whatever it is (even if entire piano technique) in one short sentence then most probably that idea is not worth it...

Best, M

How almost unbelievable!  I was just reading some of your last posts, and thinking how much I missed you being here, then happened to see a "marik1" online.  After reading a few of your posts from tonight, I conclude it is you.

    

[pianowolfi]

  Perhaps God is telling me that I'm only human, and such knowledge/ skill is the forbidden fruit...

I think times have changed and the world has changed. I believe there is no more such thing as a "forbidden fruit" when it comes to knowledge. We only temporarily tend to limit ourselves, often unnecessarily so.

[marik1]

If technique could be meaningfully explained from person to person in one sentence, then there would be no need for lessons.

One thing is to explain, and another to make it work. And then comes the fact that ideal world (i.e. when student would be able to reach it without special instructions) and the "real" world are quite different...

How almost unbelievable!  I was just reading some of your last posts, and thinking how much I missed you being here, then happened to see a "marik1" online.  After reading a few of your posts from tonight, I conclude it is you.

 

Best, M

[timothy42b]

Here is a "grand" realization of today (just seconds ago) in a succinct manner, though related to ideas I've been chewing on regarding rhythm:  Rhythm has its own sound!  haha ... in music it's pretty much perceived of as tied to tones and silences (for now including unpitched percussion), but it has its kind of own identity despite the sounds it's tied to ... it's got its own "structure" regardless of tone.

I would be cautious about this separation. 

Isolating rhythm works.

Isolating notes, though, limits optimal learning.  At least, I think so.

It is fairly common, especially for beginners, to disconnect from time while they work out notes.  They would be far better off to slow down to whatever crawl is necessary, but proceed in strict time, than to get disonnected from it.  It's not just that it reinforces the stumbling habit that for some can never be unlearned, bu that it also removes some material necessary for learning. 

[m1469]

One thing is to explain, and another to make it work. And then comes the fact that ideal world (i.e. when student would be able to reach it without special instructions) and the "real" world are quite different...

Best, M

Well, I can't argue with that.

I would be cautious about this separation.

Well, let me put it another way (not that it's special knowledge for you, but to perhaps better illustrate what I think ... and maybe to put it more succinctly for those who would like that  ) -

Rhythm and meter have their own, unique tendencies, in a similar way to harmony and melody - in fact, as you indicate, tone would not have the same tendencies without rhythm.  

I called it "sound" and "structure" when that is probably confusing, but I still think of it that way.  I guess master composers know very well how to perfectly marry the tendencies of rhythm and tone ... and in music, in masterpieces especially, we perceive them as one, united idea.    

[m1469]

One thing is to explain, and another to make it work. And then comes the fact that ideal world (i.e. when student would be able to reach it without special instructions) and the "real" world are quite different...

Best, M

Also I'm thinking of this a bit more.  I've always known that I have to structure lessons step by step, but I guess I've also had this sense that I have to try to explain something or make somebody understand (well, that's part of it I guess but there's something else, too).  I think you're saying is that I must have a very clear concept myself (and it's "allowed" to be exactly as I understand it), and my goal as a teacher/communicator is not necessarily to "explain" but rather to make the concept work (which may involve a lot of other things besides explaining and words).  It's like I've known that but not at the same time.  I think that makes me something different than somebody who just passes along information (as has been a kind of definition of what a teacher does).

[db05]

To be frank, this does not answer my questions, which were not accusatory, btw, but rather a way to establish what we are actually conversing over so as to better communicate.  Nyire didn't answer my questions, either, but instead tried to put me "in the hot seat" by asking more.  So far, that is not practical or logical for me.

For now I will say that's fine because if it's not you or Nyire who are truly interested, it will be a message in a bottle. ...

I hope I don't sound rude and I can feel that I am probably too tired to be writing.  The disclaimer needs to be that I don't claim to have all the answers ... still lots to learn.

Haha, no it's not rude at all! It is interesting to listen to you go on and on even when I don't understand a thing. And the minuet from the Compositions thread makes for nice background music. A message in a bottle is well and good!

Sir Marik, I believe this is m1469's thread and she "pwns" it, as IRC-ers would say.

Now if I can't explain myself clearly it is simply because I don't understand myself clearly either. Hence the search for clarity... I have been able to isolate myself from music all day. I have learned that silence is helpful, even necessary after a while. I've calm down somewhat.

Only m1469 was able to coax me to come here and listen. What guilty pleasure! 

[nyiregyhazi]

Nyire didn't answer my questions, either, but instead tried to put me "in the hot seat" by asking more.  

I was attempting to ascertain what you meant, in order to be able to respond. The fact that rhythmic execution is most certainly associated to pitch (unless somebody plays like a robot) does not mean that time signatures are not also relevant. I can't answer a question based on a non-existant dichotomoy that has no logical bearing on what I wrote- unless you'd like to establish how it was supposed to be connected.

[m1469]

nyire, if I observed in your behavior on the forum something other than the basic modus operandi being that of arguing for the sake of arguing, I might be inclined to believe you.  But, from what I can tell, my logical deduction of your intentions give me no pleasure in embarking on a conversation with you, even if other people might read.  So far, I don't see the relevance in your thinking to mine.  If you have a question for me, I'd like to encourage you to quote specifically a point in something I've written that you don't understand and would for some reason like to understand better, and then ask one, succinct question.  If you have more than one, I'd like to encourage you to be patient and ask one at a time, and trust that if you have intentions to have a meaningful (for both of us) interaction with me, that I will respond to those intentions.  But, I don't find meaning (or logic) in arguing endlessly, and from what I observe in your general behavior, that's all I "get" out of the deal.  So far, no deal.  And just to be clear, I don't consider a mere question mark as an actual question, succinct as it may be.

Secondly, db, Marik is my in-person teacher for over 3.5 years.  Somehow I don't think that our interaction is definable by anybody else, even if observable at times.  

[nyiregyhazi]

nyire, if I observed in your behavior on the forum something other than the basic modus operandi being that of arguing for the sake of arguing, I might be inclined to believe you.  

To illustrate otherwise, I'll ignore the off-topic nature of your post and return to the important point behind this (which you have not addressed). The execution of a rhythm is hugely dependent on its intervals. To take the rhythm of a lyrical melody and execute it without consideration of those intervals is frequently to execute something totally anti-musical. Casually leaping up a minor ninth as if it's no different to proceeding between two notes of a scale is to miss everything there is about musicality. True rhythm cannot be separated from intervals. If it can, it's cold machine-like metre and not rhythm. The Russians refer to this as the concept of "intonatsia"- in which the execution is intrinisically linked to intervals and harmony. Take the same rhythm on paper and compose two different melodies for it and that "same" rhythm will be executed with many subtle (but significant differences) that relate to pitch.

I have not the slightest idea what bearing the difference between 2/4 and 4/4 was supposed to have on that issue- or why anything I have might supposedly have implied anything about those differences.

[db05]

Secondly, db, Marik is my in-person teacher for over 3.5 years.  Somehow I don't think that our interaction is definable by anybody else, even if observable at times.  

It seemed rude for someone to comment that someone is rude because she responded to post. Being responsive = responsible; not rude at all! So you know each other IRL? Well that explains it!  

Perhaps it should matter less in the forums who knows who. I for one would find it weird to find my teacher in here... *looks around nervously*

I think times have changed and the world has changed. I believe there is no more such thing as a "forbidden fruit" when it comes to knowledge. We only temporarily tend to limit ourselves, often unnecessarily so.

This coming from Wolfi, I feel I must take heart... Yes! Thank you!  
Besides, if there were something larger than my comprehension, it would simply elude me. If I "went too far", I would simply hit a wall. No harm done to the rest of the world.

So carry on, carry on... don't mind me when I bang my head against the keyboard. It's all part of the learning process.

*steers back to topic*

timothy and nyire,
Yes, rhythm has its own sound, and melody has its own sound. Try listening to them!

From what I gather, it helps to separate things at the start. Even rhythm and notes. Even for beginners. An analogy is learning to play Hands Separate. If that is advisable in many cases, why not Rhythm Separate? Especially for beginners, it helps to create a picture of the whole - parts - whole as a synthesis of the parts. It's the advanced players who skip these steps... Of course it has to make sense as a whole - rhythm and intervals should correspond. But apart from highly trained ears, who notices that while practicing?

[m1469]

Perhaps it should matter less in the forums who knows who. I for one would find it weird to find my teacher in here... *looks around nervously*

That is your opinion and those are your feelings, and if you would have a problem with it, that's your problem.  Everybody is here for their own reasons, and those who choose to be here according to the conducts outlined by the forum regulations, have every right to be here.  And, not to forget, as far as I understand it, this forum is intended exactly for professional pianists, teachers, and serious learners ...

[nyiregyhazi]

From what I gather, it helps to separate things at the start. Even rhythm and notes. Even for beginners. An analogy is learning to play Hands Separate. If that is advisable in many cases, why not Rhythm Separate? Especially for beginners, it helps to create a picture of the whole - parts - whole as a synthesis of the parts. It's the advanced players who skip these steps... Of course it has to make sense as a whole - rhythm and intervals should correspond. But apart from highly trained ears, who notices that while practicing?

The point is that it's not the same part- unless considered in relation to melody. If a short rhythmic motif occurs ten times over, it's not exact the same rhythm ten times (unless you're a computer). There are subtle variations. It's fine for beginners to do things like tapping exercises. However, the true rhythm of a melody is dependant on it's pitches. Beginners will start with very literal metre, but it's important for anyone who wants to be a musician to start appreciating the subtleties. The thought of tapping the rhythm of a melody by Chopin is just totally anti-musical. It's meaningless without appreciation of both the pitches and how they determine what differentiates musical rhythm from what a computer does.

[m1469]

Today's realization (well, yesterday's actually) is that ... and this is cool and actually probably not so cool all at the same time ...

While I'm playing a piece, I hear other music in my head and body along with it.  My mind is improvising on it and hearing harmonies and other instrumentations sometimes, other melodic options, other rhythmic options ... I think this has been happening for a really long time, but it became very, very obvious as I was playing Appassionata 2nd movement yesterday.  I actually don't know though if it's always there, has always been there, or if it's only at certain times (for example, maybe it was super obvious because my mind was in that mode about my minuet, and it just carried over into my playing).  I don't know what to do about it, exactly.  I think I have to let it be there because I think if I don't, it's actually a problem.  Yes, I think I have to let it be there ... sometimes I think I have to try not to play it, but I don't even know if I could play it if I gave myself permission to ... and maybe sometimes I accidentally play it.

[pianowolfi]

That's called inspiration and creativity

[m1469]

That's called inspiration and creativity

Ok, well, I remember now that's what my whole childhood/adolescence was like (though I think something happened to it ... somewhere ... later).  I would play something and that would happen (but as a child I would follow it at that point, rather than stick to the original thing), I would hear stuff on the radio and that would happen (though with that, too, I made a game to try to sing along with something I didn't know and predict what would happen next ... I thought I was pulling a magic trick, but I'm thinking that was probably based on there being certain patterns and I just started picking up on it since I listened to music quite a bit).  It used to just be flowing for me and even would happen if there were no "sound" in the air ... and that's why I thought everybody could be musical if they wanted to ... it was just there all the time, like it naturally filled the whole existence of the universe/everything imaginable, and that people just had to listen.  

[pianowolfi]

That's very beautiful and precious, especially because you remember it, perhaps many people have such experiences but not everybody can remember it later in life. Somehow that's what music is about, to me. A sort of natural/supernatural environment. It's indeed very precious, and it's important to let nothing, nothing ever come in the way of it, I think, and it's important to live it to the fullest.

[m1469]

I think I found a great thing for it!  You play the outline/skeleton of a piece, as though you're playing the whole enchilada all together, but you let that thing fill in the gaps only in your mind and body, and it seems like it plays the real piece.  hmmm ... interesting!  And maybe for people who don't think they have that, it's a possible way to introduce it or build it. 

[ajspiano]

Maybe you should give yourself permission to follow it and see how that goes..

Actually, when I properly internalise a work I reach a point of feeling as though it is being created as I play rather than recited, and it is sometimes difficult not to go off on tangents. My biggest trouble with ongoing practice of a set piece is managing to not just go off on an improvisation bender for an hour.

[rachmaninoff_forever]

How to make the weird, uncomfortable scale passage in the rachmaninoff prelude op. 32 no. 10 sound like waves, and the ending scale sound like a stream of water.  You floor the pedal once you're at the base note, but the closer you get to that high F#, you LIGHTLY take off some of the pedal, then you slowly floor it once you go back.  VERY small amounts of pedal at a time!  Maybe 1/10th of a pedal per note?  It's hard to tell how much because you can't really look at the pedal while playing it due to technical difficulties.  You have to like aim at that high F# because it's sooo uncomfortable!


It's a beautiful piece!  Rachmaninoff said it was his favorite prelude!  You should YouTube Lazar Berman's rendition of it, he's soo good!

[marik1]

It seemed rude for someone to comment that someone is rude because she responded to post.

No, it has nothing to do with m1469's response to post. It was supposed to be a joke (and I put emoticons), as m1469 likes to write long and I tend to write short and concise. Sorry for the confusion it has created.

Best, M

[timothy42b]

From what I gather, it helps to separate things at the start. Even rhythm and notes. Even for beginners.

This is certainly how beginners intuitively approach practising.

I feel VERY strongly that this is not only unnecessary but misguided.  The connection to time is so fundamental to various neural processes that removing it is always harmful.

I suspect there is little point in further debate though.  My position is more common among wind instrument players, particularly brass, than keyboardists. 

[rachmaninoff_forever]

B minor scale!  Harmonic and Melodic

[keypeg]

This is certainly how beginners intuitively approach practising.

I feel VERY strongly that this is not only unnecessary but misguided.  The connection to time is so fundamental to various neural processes that removing it is always harmful.

I suspect there is little point in further debate though.  My position is more common among wind instrument players, particularly brass, than keyboardists. 

Something that is often overlooked is the student himself.  What is the nature of this student and how he processes things, and where is he at?  Second thing is that music is an oxymoron: any truth has its opposite truth which is also true.  If you push any one truth, you will have thrown things off balance.

I played self-taught on a number of instruments for many years.  I certainly had the spontaneity with everything flowing together.  My playing was also crude in some ways.  Point is that I am already familiar with the everything-works-together thing and it is one of two truths.

The other truth is that there are particular skills which are brand new, and we can only learn one new thing at a time.  Once we have these more or less in our bodies then it's another story.  Teachers may forget what the first was like.  In any case, what I learned to do was to practice concentrating on only one thing.  Perhaps it was the notes or chords with decent consistent fingering.  Timing didn't matter.  Articulation didn't matter.  Personally these were still in the back of my mind for the final picture, but I wanted to get this one thing down pat.

When I DID have it down pat, then I was liberated for the other things.  The fingering/notes were automatic so I did not have to concentrate on them.  For that reason I could concentrate fully on the next thing.  That's probably dynamics, articulation, phrasing - the thing of expression.  I might have to isolate how to move for a certain section of the music since my technique is relatively recent and unformed.  I could concentrate on those things because I had the notes/chords/fingering down pat.

When all of it was done, I could integrate those various parts.  In fact, they were integrating as I went along.  Generally in practising I will isolate something, but then I play it through with all the elements as far as I got them, and don't worry about what isn't working yet because I know I'll get to them.  When at the end I am playing the piece as a whole, if something goes wrong I can go back to the element I've practised and work with what's gone wrong.  I can do that because I worked with it enough that it's not fuzzy.

Now it may be that in a few years a lot of these things will be automatic so that I can start by putting together several things from the very beginning.  That is what I meant by: nature of student, where the student is at, and what the student is working on.

[m1469]

Oh my gosh!  I almost want to cry, no joke!  Sorry Thal, but Schumann is such a genius/beautiful soul!  It seems like heaven  .


*keeps practicing*

[db05]

The other truth is that there are particular skills which are brand new, and we can only learn one new thing at a time.  Once we have these more or less in our bodies then it's another story.  Teachers may forget what the first was like.  In any case, what I learned to do was to practice concentrating on only one thing.  Perhaps it was the notes or chords with decent consistent fingering.  Timing didn't matter.  Articulation didn't matter.  Personally these were still in the back of my mind for the final picture, but I wanted to get this one thing down pat.

When I DID have it down pat, then I was liberated for the other things.  The fingering/notes were automatic so I did not have to concentrate on them.  For that reason I could concentrate fully on the next thing.  That's probably dynamics, articulation, phrasing - the thing of expression.  I might have to isolate how to move for a certain section of the music since my technique is relatively recent and unformed.  I could concentrate on those things because I had the notes/chords/fingering down pat.

When all of it was done, I could integrate those various parts.  In fact, they were integrating as I went along.  Generally in practising I will isolate something, but then I play it through with all the elements as far as I got them, and don't worry about what isn't working yet because I know I'll get to them.  When at the end I am playing the piece as a whole, if something goes wrong I can go back to the element I've practised and work with what's gone wrong.  I can do that because I worked with it enough that it's not fuzzy.

*nodnodnod*

That happens to me a lot, and I thought I was the only one! Until I found Chang's book I thought I'm the only person who needs to do HS work because I'm so uncoordinated... but isolating elements in practice serves me well. I guess different people have different study habits.

---
This post is quite late for me, since I learned this the other day, during/after the lesson:
slow HT practice while reading has led me to a plateau! I find it hard to play without the score now, when it's usually the other way around. I know being able to sight read was a good thing - teacher was impressed - but now I'm stuck...

I'm considering unlearning this piece (it's a Chopin Waltz) now, while I work on others. The technique is there and the notes are there, I'm confident. But add speed and it doesn't come together. I think I'm gonna have to memorize this over again.

The added confidence has helped with my easier pieces. But now it's not a matter of easy vs hard but read vs memorized. And how many hoops am I going to put in front of me before the big ones (grade 7/8 pieces, pieces for performances).

Hm, is planning part of practice? If it is, how much planning would be appropriate, without getting too much ahead of yourself/ your teacher? Say, one year? Two years? For all my piano study and training I have learned three things:

1) I can play piano!!!
2) I can memorize piano music! (after doing the work)
3) I can sight read piano music! (easier pieces, and slowly)

After that, what's next...?

[m1469]

Sometimes a breakthrough and/or extra excitement about one instrument (either piano or voice) for me, makes me think it should become or is becoming obvious that I would choose one over the other (my adulthood ... "dilemma"), but what happens instead is that I have an overall insight into how connected they are for me and it becomes obvious that they are almost one and same for me, and that both are necessary to my life.  I have to admit, I sometimes wish -even very deeply so- that this were not so and my path would probably look very different if it were ... but I'm going to just keep trusting there's some kind of path for who I really am.

[m1469]

Okay, but really, piano matters more  .  Do you even recognize me ? 

[pianowolfi]

Oh my gosh!  I almost want to cry, no joke!  Sorry Thal, but Schumann is such a genius/beautiful soul!  It seems like heaven  .

Yes that is true! I am doing a project "Kinderszenen" with some of my students, for the student's recital on Saturday. There are 9 people involved, including myself. We will do the whole Kinderszenen, every student plays one or two pieces, and I play three (well originally I hoped that the students would be able to play all of them, but at least they're playing 10 of them )
I really love this project, though it will not be "perfect" of course. It's the experience and the event that count, for all of us. I hope everybody will be touched by the magic of this music, in the one or other way

[m1469]

Yes that is true! I am doing a project "Kinderszenen" with some of my students, for the student's recital on Saturday. There are 9 people involved, including myself. We will do the whole Kinderszenen, every student plays one or two pieces, and I play three (well originally I hoped that the students would be able to play all of them, but at least they're playing 10 of them )
I really love this project, though it will not be "perfect" of course. It's the experience and the event that count, for all of us. I hope everybody will be touched by the magic of this music, in the one or other way

I love this idea of your studio project, especially with you as the teacher participating right along with.  My recitals this weekend were really pretty much an amazing experience for me, not necessarily because my playing or experience playing was so amazing itself, but rather the overall significance to me that all of these people were there, who they were, and what I felt my role was in the experience.  It was so amazing to have nearly 20 people at each, and to have them be my students and their families, and to feel that finally there is a more complete circle in my teaching that is forming.  And then to have a few students get up and play for everybody at each recital, as well.  It was just really special to me as it seemed like a celebration of music and piano and somehow felt so right to me.  In any event, I really applaud your project and participation .

I can feel that my being is deeply trying to learn very important things from this weekend that I can't quite get myself wrapped around just yet.  I have to sort it out and separate some ideas and maybe write things through or talk it out so I can get things clear in my head and move forward.

[m1469]

The most clear thing(s) to me is that I deeply want to keep performing as a pianist (and will continue to be bugging my Teachers about piano playing, I guess), I feel there is becoming a distinction or clarification between what it means to need to grow as a pianist vs. needing to grow as a performer and that there are related but separate skills involved (and that one would ultimately want a passion/desire for developing both), this clarification sheds light on my goals/what my goals should be in practice/technique (and some areas in those respects where I've gone wrong and can improve and clarify differences, etc.), and that although I want to keep performing as a singer and although there is very much from my singing performances that has helped a great deal and carries over and all of that, there is an undeniable deep(er) significance for me in piano learning and performance ... it just ignites something that seems unique to it.


*saying it feels so real and true, it makes me tremble from deeply as though it is actually resonating with me, I guess*

[m1469]

ooops, there's more.  I recognize, along with what I wrote above, the actual desire to get better as a performer, and I can't help it, this is very much centered around piano playing (but includes singing).  I suppose that word and idea are starting to mean something different to me now though, then I've ever thought of them before.  In some respects, I consider myself just newly learning how to perform as a pianist and that I am learning in a way that I was always meant to learn (and though the past is becoming separated for me, I am learning about some very false ideas that were holding me back and this is an important lesson in helping me move forward).  Along all of these lines, though, just as in piano playing itself and the learning of pieces, I think that I have a naturalness in wanting to challenge myself as a performer.  I have, even right now as I type this, an actual, personal hunger to up the anti a little.  I have never seen anything in this kind of perspective before with regard to this because there has been a confusion.

[timothy42b]

I recognize, along with what I wrote above, the actual desire to get better as a performer,

The change to a performer mindset is a large one, and almost unique to piano. 

I came to piano as a performer and never considered any other approach.  It took me a long time reading posts on this and other forums to realize (though not fully understand) that most pianists consider themselves students or hobbyists and many never intend to play a single note in public for anybody besides a teacher.  That approach was very alien to me but appears to be common.  I doubt if any other instrument has any significant number of players who do that.
 
 

I have never seen anything in this kind of perspective before with regard to this because there has been a confusion.

What, are you in midlife crisis again?  Don't make any decisions now!

[m1469]

What, are you in midlife crisis again?  Don't make any decisions now!

I actually have no idea how that relates to what you quoted, but, no, not that I know of.  Though, my freak out on Sunday was perhaps a condensed version of one (but was also related to the fact that I personally needed physical, mental, and emotional space that I didn't have at the time because of certain circumstances).

The change to a performer mindset is a large one, and almost unique to piano.  

I came to piano as a performer and never considered any other approach.  It took me a long time reading posts on this and other forums to realize (though not fully understand) that most pianists consider themselves students or hobbyists and many never intend to play a single note in public for anybody besides a teacher.  That approach was very alien to me but appears to be common.  I doubt if any other instrument has any significant number of players who do that.

I don't know that this is true, regarding the change of mindset to performing being unique to piano.  I mean, there are plenty of singers who take lessons just to sing better for their own purposes, and not necessarily to perform.  I think that's true for many guitarists, as well, and I would imagine that's true for numbers of other instruments, though I understand that for some it may not be as musically fulfilling to play as a solo instrument (like the flute, maybe?).  

What I mean is that I think it's important to clarify a separation between preparing and practicing a piece vs. preparing and practicing a performing/performer's psychology/mentality.  I think the performer's psychology/mentality is fundamentally unique to itself and is rooted in a basic desire and ability to communicate, share, or be with people, etc..  For example, it is one thing to sculpt in stone or clay exactly what one needs to express through the sculpture, and to make it as true to the idea as possible, and then it's yet another thing to decide to show it and share it.  And, while sharing it might be a goal, sculpting a perfect line in general doesn't necessarily sufficiently cope with a psychological fear in eventually sharing the sculpture, as that fear is ultimately rooted specifically within the psychology of sharing and must be dealt with, at least in part, specifically within that realm.  Or let's say, perhaps one is perfectly capable of shaping a perfect line, but the fear of sharing (once the sculpture is done) prevents one from ever forming that perfect line even in private, and therefore, even though the sculptor is ultimately capable of shaping it, never does because s/he can't separate a fear of sharing from the ability to shape in the first place.

Practicing something a thousand times just because there is a fear of performing, doesn't necessarily "handle" the psychology of performing or create room for a pianist's/musician's true ability to show during performance.  There is a point in preparation where one must realize they have actually accomplished what needs to be accomplished, and to stop trying to deal with the psychology of performing through repetition of passages ... especially if there is a psychological barrier rooted in performing which is hampering a person in preparations.

hmmm ... that's still a crude attempt.
 
    

[m1469]

Or, for example, getting distracted and having then the domino effect of losing one's focus and concentration on the music, losing one's place while performing, getting flustered and panicking, and perhaps even stopping, is not inherently the same thing as a memory lapse and insufficiently learning the music.  This is a very important distinction and it's very important, at least it seems to me, to know the difference because one can't necessarily be handled just by how many ways you practice and memorize a piece, whereas another can.  And it's very important to realize a difference between getting distracted, etc., vs. a fundamental inability to memorize and play from memory.  One is psychological and specific to performing, while the other is not, and if that gets confused it can create a (sometimes very big) problem in the preparation process and become a problem and bigger confusion (and unnecessarily so) if performing becomes a factor.

[m1469]

And, deciding then, not to latch onto certain skills in preparation (like memorizing a chord progression) and that you don't know if you really know something because you don't know if you can rely upon it in performance, certainly doesn't help in preparation/learning and can prevent one from developing necessary fundamentals.  First develop it, and let yourself know that you know it, even if performance itself is an unknown.  Maybe not applicable for everybody, but certainly applicable for me.

[49410enrique]

the importance of hands separate part memorization early on so one does not have to stop and readdress hand independence later. this is happening in my scriabin where its pretty good hands together but by itself i need the score. indicates gaps in the mechanics and learning process where i am relyng on one hand to help que the other, this can prove disasterous in performance situations . so i'm having to go back really make sure i can play each hand separately and then i need to work on being able to play the entire work all LH or all RH from memory, then i need to be able to just alternatae droping a hand and letting the other continue the add it back and and switch dropping the other hand and letting it continue. until i can do this, the piece isn't really learned. good grief this is frustrating.

[timothy42b]

Or, for example, getting distracted and having then the domino effect of losing one's focus

Losing one's SELF focus.

But when performing, you are hired by the customer, and it is your job to focus on them accordingly. 

[m1469]

Losing one's SELF focus.

But when performing, you are hired by the customer, and it is your job to focus on them accordingly.  

Do I know you?  

Firstly, "hired" can be used very loosely here.  Secondly, if one is actually hired, it is to do a job, and that means specifically that it is the job at hand that must be focused on, not anything else.  My first job as performer, is to the music, and that means I have to do whatever I personally must do in order to fulfill that job.  Something I specifically learned Sunday was to take some space mentally and physically if I needed it, before the performance and during, and that meant, in my case, that I needed to actually stop worrying about whether people were already having or were going to have a good time, and think only of exactly what I personally needed at those moments.  For example, I went into a back room before I started and took the time I needed instead of staying out where everybody else was, worrying about being a hostess while people were arriving and getting settled (in contrast to the day before).  I feel this is doing my job, and in turn helped me fulfill the music, and in turn helped me to provide a more enjoyable experience (to the best of my abilities at that time) to my "customers" (whose tickets were a pint of ice cream).  I know the scale goes up in terms of the psychological expectations when you are hired by different people for official concerts, but I personally must start somewhere that I can latch hold of and stand on, and also it seems that an order of what jobs must come first is always a beneficial approach.

[pianowolfi]

 if one is actually hired, it is to do a job, and that means specifically that it is the job at hand that must be focused on, not anything else.  My first job as performer, is to the music, and that means I have to do whatever I personally must do in order to fulfill that job.  

So well said! It's to the music. The job is to the music and not to anybody else. Even if it seems to be to somebody else than the music, we must not get distracted by it.

[timothy42b]

So well said! It's to the music. The job is to the music and not to anybody else. Even if it seems to be to somebody else than the music, we must not get distracted by it.

Sorry.  Seems a bit self centered to me.  No time to explain it better though.

[m1469]

Do you know?  I *love* Mozart *so* much.  I have missed him in my life SO much.  And, I didn't think I could fall in love, exactly, with one of his "happy" sonatas (which, I think most are considered to be), but as I am going along, I am finding a kind of depth and character and vitality that are inexplicable.  There should always be Mozart in life.  And, I am really loving Horowitz playing Mozart, too.

[pianowolfi]

haha now I'm dying to know which sonata! 

[m1469]

haha now I'm dying to know which sonata! 

I will say at a later date .

[timothy42b]

I'm working on K. 447.

[krajcher]

I'm working on K. 447.

Unforunately there is no hornstreet website

[timothy42b]

Unforunately there is no hornstreet website

True, but I use this one:
https://tromboneforum.org/index.php

and play the horn parts on trombone.

[zezhyrule]

The Beethoven Sonata I'm working on is deceptively much harder than it sounds. Not that it sounded easy. Of course, it's also extremely beautiful so I'm happy still  


Also wow