inane winter wind thread....

[the_duck]

a brief warning.... this thread will probably be unspeakably boring and/or pointless.

i'm currently learning this piece (i've been toiling with it on and off for a few months now, but it's started to come together over the last month or so). i was just wondering if anyone here is  also working on it at the moment and wanted to discuss some of the difficulties, or share some of the enjoyable or frustrating elements of learning it.

to give an idea of my progress, i've learned all of it HT except for 4 anomolous bars around the middle (i've learned it in quite a haphazard order). the only bits i'm 100% happy with are the pages 1 and 3 (the main theme, and the restatement in the the dominant), which i can play at full speed with the desired effect (i'm playing it at around 114 BPM). the second page, and the corresponding fourth page are still a little awkward, however. i can hammer through them at full speed, especially by emphasising the left hand, but i still don't feel like i've got absolute control over the right hand part. does anyone have any suggestions on how to get this part absolutely smooth and even, because it doesn't seem to fit the hand particularly well (even in some of the videos i've seen on youtube, professionals also seem to labour a little with these bits). the middle section i'm still bringing up slowly, but i don't see any immediate problems, and the contrary motion bit i have about 3/4 speed and once again i don't see any enormous difficulties here. the only other problem is the coda. i can play it all up to speed, and playing without pedal reveals that it's actually pretty even and accurate, but i don't feel that i've got the desired effect. it all sounds a little heavy and imprecise. does anyone have any suggestions on how to clearly bring out all of the various voices here (the voicing jumps between the LH and RH). this past week i've all but abandoned slow practise on the sections i can play ok, and it doesn't seem to be hurting my playing, but i'm sure it's not a good idea. has anyone else succumbed to the urge to play this piece at speed rather than keeping it slow?

this may well be the worst thread ever in pianostreet history, but if anyone who is studying, or who has studied this piece could find it in their hearts to respond i would be eternally grateful.

as a final aside, even though i can't yet play it all, i've been struck by just how playable it is in general. it's at the top of my all-time wishlist of dream pieces, and i expected it to be more difficult than it appears to be. am i being a little hasty? should i wait until i have it all at performance level before determining its true difficulty?

anyway, thanks to anyone generous/bored/masochistic enough to get to the end of this thread. i'll try and post a recording of it as soon as i can (hopefully within the next month).

edd

[avetma]

Hello edd,

I am learning seriously this wonderful piece for 2 months already, and I can say I have learned most of it in techical sense.

It was difficult to memorise notes and get right tempo, but now is completely in my fingers, and I can play it at 135. But, few bars are really anoying, like part when left hand finishes passages and RH plays some modulated notes in Ab major. But I hope I will get it soon...

Ante

[ted]

As usual treat my remarks about classical pieces with caution because I have just learned these pieces by myself over the years and have had no tuition regarding them.

Do not hesitate to fiddle with the fingering to suit your own hand. Some of those zig-zagging figures can be very awkward until the right personal trick is found. Recently I have been using my third and fourth fingers in the right hand rather than the fifth in many of the grips. I have also gone back to hand displacement and finger striking rather than trying to connect everything with the wrist. Although this latter way is apparently how one should play it, I cannot seem to do it that way at all; no doubt the fault lies with me.

I find recording myself to be the final arbiter of whether something is any good. It's easy to concentrate so hard on the right hand that the beautiful sweep of left hand phrases is neglected. I like to make the most of all those wonderful chord changes in the middle section by making it breathe rather than rushing through at a constant ninety miles an hour; but to each his own.

I find the piece to be one of the most beautiful in the standard literature. It is also exceptional in its unrelentingly tragic drive from beginning to end. The skeletons win the game here. Those two chords and the following final precipitous descent are a stroke of piano genius if anything is.

Hundreds of people play it with astonishing technique but so very few seem to do so as if the music means something to them.

[the_duck]

It was difficult to memorise notes and get right tempo, but now is completely in my fingers, and I can play it at 135.

wow, 135 is really fast!! most recordings are played under 120. can you keep it consistently at that speed, or are there sections markedly slower?

Hundreds of people play it with astonishing technique but so very few seem to do so as if the music means something to them.

very true. i think the real challenge with this piece is to tell a convincing story. non-stop, rapid-fire notes played at ff really don't do much for me! i think it's a piece one has to keep coming back to and tinkering with. it seems as though there are literally dozens of different, and apparently viable, ways of playing each section of the piece, so to put it all together in a way that hangs together convincingly is quite a challenge. i anticipate that i'll still be playing this piece, and getting lots out of it, in years to come.

i don't know what sort of level you guys are at (i'm guessing it must be fairly high!), but for me the WW was a bit of a step up, at least in theory. the only really polished (i.e. concert standard) pieces in my rep to this point are/were chopin nocturne op.9 no.1 and chopin etude 25/1, but i'd had a good go at beethoven's pathetique and tempest, rach op.3 no.2 and chopin's 3rd ballade. i had kind of expected this to be another semi-abortive effort where i learned a lot from the piece and acquired enough of the necessary technique to help me with this and other pieces in the future, but i did not really anticipate that i'd actually be PLAYING it, so this has been a pleasant surprise. i'm actually surprised that people on this forum tend to scare others from learning this piece. perhaps this will be controversial, but to me it doesn't seem a great deal more difficult than 25/1 or 25/2, although it does take a lot longer to learn. but once you have acquired the right motion (for me this took about 3 months), and forced yourself to memorise the notes (again, about 3 months), it really falls into place. and i've found that all the RH (and LH) passagework is REALLY helping me with other pieces. it really is a tremendously useful study, and if approached the right way i don't think you'll ruin it with bad habits and speed walls (i'm not really a proponent of chang's methods, and building it up HT has not hindered me thus far). i think that if one can REALLY play any of the other studies then the WW shouldn't be too far beyond them.

i'm also surprised that people on here have complained about "stamina" with regards to the WW. i find that once i'm warmed up i can play it numerous times without cramping up, and i know for a fact that i do not play entirely tension-free.

after long deliberation, i've decided that my favourite bit of this piece is the part directly after the contrary motion run, where the LH and RH play in unison (actually slightly different notes), and there is the first (and only) true silence of the whole piece, before the LH chromatic heralds the restatement of the opening theme. i think this bit has humour, passion, style, and is REALLY fun to play! i'm still working on how to make this sound best (i'm currently playing the 4-note bits quickly, with a good pause in between and a marked decrescendo, then accelerating rapidly through the chromatic bit, but this may all change soon!)

I find recording myself to be the final arbiter of whether something is any good.

have you posted a recording on this forum? i'd be really interested to hear it!

have fun with this piece!

edd

[ted]

I've posted dozens of recordings on the forum but none (perhaps one I think) of standard classical pieces as yet because I wanted to do something different to everybody else. I could, I suppose. I might try a few when I record my next improvisation CD.