Playing while teaching.

[pizno]

I remember my daughter's teachers being very stern and getting easily irritated if she played a few notes while they were still talking, or looking something up.  Now that I am teaching, I have a boy who does this incessantly!  I have vowed to be kind, so I will gently put my hand on his to hush him, and a few times I have said 'why don't you not play while I am talking'.  The other thing that I have found almost ALL students do, is put their feet on the pedals, and thunk them while I am talking.  I have reminded them several times 'Go ahead and take your feet off the pedals'.  OK, another irritation?  Reading the wrong week's assignment, or, if I forget to write down a page number, even though we have gone over the piece, they don't bother trying to find it.  My mistake,  but it's just lost time. 

But mostly, I am enjoying teaching - I'm just feeling like venting about the little irritating things!

piz

[penguinlover]

I have had a student who does that, and yes, it is very annoying.  I gently told her that I loved to hear her play, and she would get her turn.  But now was my turn.  I had to do that several weeks in a row before she stopped.  I also tried not to talk so much to her because all she really wanted to do was play.  That is a good thing isn't it?

[hyrst]

I had a lesson myself a few weeks ago.  It has been a long time since I had a lesson, and I really wanted to get the most out of it.  I admit to playing while the teacher was talking, even though I tried very much not to - because I didn't want to seem rude.  However, I wanted to play because I wanted to explore the teacher's suggestions and uncover more things, on that basis, that I could ask her about.  In other words, I had to fight the urge to play - but I would have gained a lot more from the lesson if I had felt free and had consent to play even while she was talking. 

I also think that it is a good sign that they want to play the piano, instead of avoiding playing.  During my lesson, I wanted the teacher's explicit instruction so I could explore the piano more - it was more a practical thing, with a practical need, rather than an intellectual exercise.  Maybe it is a good thing that kids want to explore the piano?  Maybe they want to see what sounds they can produce, and the movement is for discovery? 

Sometimes, though, it is kids just being kids - I don't like it when they swing their legs because I don't like it when the piano gets kicked. 

I tend to think, though, that is a kid isn't paying attention while I am talking, if I have first got their attention, than maybe I am saying something they don't understand or they are not ready for in some way.  (But my biggest problem as a teacher, I think, is not being the 'boss'.  Perhaps I am not strict enough in some ways.)

I find that some of my students relax more and play better - as well as gaining more from the lesson, if the talking is independent of the playing - ie. sometimes they play while I am talking, and they talk while they are playing as well.  But we also talk when they are not playing.  (This is mostly the older ones - over 10 years.  I have some around 7-8 who I use this 'play' as the springboard of creative work.  I treat the playing as creative exploration - and it seems to work.  They love learning how all these fiddling things can be turned into improvisation, and the students I have at this age are all writing their own pieces now.  With the younger ones, I guess it's probably attention issues.)

It is important that we as teachers are comfortable and are in charge of the lesson.  Perhaps they could have some quiet way of expressing their need to move?  - something to fiddle with that is silent and not too interesting (distracting). 

(Sorry if my post sounded too opinionated before.  I wrote when I was over-tired, but wanted to give some food for thought.  What I really wanted to say was not to feel too frustrated about it, but that the behaviour might sometimes even be a really good sign.  However, I have recently acquired two students who aren't into the lessons as much as my other students - and I can relate to the frustrations in this case.  I'm sorry if I was offensive before.)

Annah

[counterpoint]

I know this situation very well (teacher wants to explain something - student doesn't stop to play), it's really annoying! There's a simple solution: just close the piano lid v-e-r-y slowly, so the student is forced to stop playing. That works great and you don't loose time in long discussions on whether the student should stop playing while you are explaining something.

[hyrst]

[I apologise - I think I was too tired when I wrote my post, so I have taken it off]

[jpianoflorida]

the pedals are the worst with young students! They seem to have a fascination and want to play with them....I just keep saying "we don't need the pedals on this song, it will make it sound really bad" or something like that.    And as far as the playing while you are talking, yes! I get that sometimes, especially the very young ones, I just repeat their name over and over until they stop! Like     SAM, SAM, SAM, SAM" then when they look at you I will motion them to stop playing and listen.     I find in lessons the one thing that works best in a discipline situation is to use their name...repeat it over and over until you get their attention.

sometimes it may be     "KEVIN, KEVIN, CONCENTRATE, KEVIN, CONCENTRATE"...     one of my 5 year olds the other day learned what word --he said "what does concentrate mean"?    So in addition to piano we also had a vocabulary word that day!

[pizno]

I have gotten some insights from the above posts, and also so empathy.  Hyrst, you are so right.  I have a teacher I only get to take lessons with a few times a year, and I adore him.  But he is a talker.  He might decide that he wants to express his philosphy of piano playing and I just want to play!  I have felt that frustration.

I missed a local workshop on different learning styles and piano teaching.  Some teacher friends though have told me that what they got from this is that some kids are auditory learners, they need to hear the piano, or they are kinesthetic learners, they need to feel the keys under their hands.  This one boy, I'm sure fits that description.  I know that at home he plays all the time - making up pieces.  He can't stop.  He definitely starts yawning when I start talking too much.  This is making me think about how to teach this very musical kid.  Keep him moving, get him making music, let him show me what he can do.

[jpianoflorida]

I think I need to clarify..the "playing I'm talking about" is just hitting keys at random,not actually playing a song...they are just "diddling" on the piano....     if they were playing an actual song i wouldn't mind.

[pianowolfi]

When they begin "diddling" just stop talking and be quiet. After a while they will stop. Start talking again. If they start diddling again, stop and be quiet. And so on. Once they will get it. That may work wonders

[tiasjoy]

I can't remember if I've had this problem a lot - if I did, it mustn't have made an impact on me (i.e. didnt' frustrate me too much) - except for a 13 yr old who "diddled" on a bad day (for me).  I covered her hands and said :"Don't".  She stopped instantly, and she hasn't done it since.

Whether it's hyperactivity or manners, all kids can learn what's acceptable in your studio.

I'm just feeling like venting about the little irritating things!

Never underestimate the little irritating things pizno - it's these annoying insignificant trifles that can accumulate until one day -BOOFFF! and we want to quit.  Sometimes it's only other piano teachers who can really empathise - and then sympathise.   We all work through problems differently, and if you need to vent frustrations, go for it.  I for one, wouldn't automatically assume just because you're frustrated doesn't mean you're not enjoying teaching.  (just like getting angry with your husband or children doesn't mean you don't love them)

It was really interesting to see your insight first as a parent seeing other teachers getting frustrated, and now experiencing this yourself.   I often think it would be SO beneficial if we could all have one of those "freaky friday" incidents when  - just for one day - the parent could became us, and we could become the parent: wouldn't we be able see things so differently...

[jpianoflorida]

great post tiasjoy!

[penguinlover]

Yes, I agree, good post.  That's why it is so important we teachers have this forum.  We can vent our frustrations, and see that we are not the only ones who go through them.  It is much better to vent them here, and not on the student.  I remember not long ago m1469 was SO mad at a situation in her teaching carreer.  She just sat down and vented, right before or as the student arrived.  I was impressed that she did that.  She got some help, and some sympathy.  We need both. 

[pianowolfi]

Never underestimate the little irritating things pizno - it's these annoying insignificant trifles that can accumulate until one day -BOOFFF! and we want to quit. 

Yes that's what happened to me sometimes. I think that the vocational training of piano teachers- at least when I was studying- does not prepare us to handle matters of discipline. Unfortunately a fact like diddling students was never a subject in one of my pedagogical classes.

[pianistimo]

i've learned, too, over time - to give adequate time for a student to practice what you have just talked to them about.  i'm learning to talk less and let them play more.  after all - you want them to be excited about playing.  if you really want all the attention you need - you can say 'wait.  let me show you something - and then you can try'  and then scoot them over or move them off the bench - and you sit down and play it the way you are trying to explain it.  then, they don't even have access to the keyboard and pedals and in fact, must listen.

the thing is - i don't think a teacher should do this more than once or twice in one lesson - unless you have an adult or advanced student.  i'm trying to be less 'perfectionistic' with younger students and just get them to play lots!

[m1469]

I will admit that I don't care for students playing while I am talking IF what I am saying needs to be said and what they are playing right then does not need to be played at that moment.  When that is the case, I simply ask that they not play while I am talking because it's really difficult for me to talk over it.  That normally works just fine.

However, I have one student whom kept doing this and more than that, she just didn't want to focus and preferred to just fool around the whole lesson long (which was not how it had been for the two years that we had already worked together).  This happened lesson after lesson for some time and we were really losing ground.  Finally, the last time this occurred, I didn't say anything.  I waited for a time to give her the opportunity to get it out of her system (she was just fooling around -- which I am not fundamentally opposed to nor do I feel it's inherently a waste of time, but at this point it was both to me) but she kept on.  So, I decidedly stood up and intently walked out of the room asking her to let me know when she was ready.

She instantly stopped and apologized and after a couple of minutes of silence I came back out and we resumed our lesson with much more focus than we had for quite a while.  The following week she came ready to work and the whole tone of the lesson was changed.  We still had fun but we weren't just burning time.

Sometimes very obvious hints are in order and I would not handle it this way in every case, but this one was needed.  I would also note, though, that I know her and our relationship together well enough to know that this would not crush her spirit -- and it didn't.


m1469

[cora]

Kudos m1469. You just can't let them whittle away their time. You probably would have stopped her a long time ago if you were to relive that time.

I like the "Don't." suggestion. I really like giving behavioural corrections in a minimalistic way because it saves me energy and the students embarassment. I usually say, "Stop noodling. Noodling is when you play while I'm instructing." I've also lifted hands gently off of the piano.

One time a student was really getting on my nerves, being obstinate and lippy. I stood up and looked out the window and calmly said, " I can't teach you if you keep disagreeing with me like this." That really worked wonders.

[luvslive]

This is an excellent topic, I am glad to see that everyone has those moments with students.  I have had this happen with a few students.  One was a saxophone player.  I am always good about waiting until the end of a piece to compliment and critique..but as soon as I would start talking she would be exploring her saxophone, pushing down the keys looking what would happen...I've gotten in the habit of asking if she understands what I am saying and also say "I am sorry that I have to talk right now but I would like you to try _____"
Another student yawns loudly and fiddles just a minute into his lesson.  He takes lessons in his home and is very dramatic about stretching and preparing to play.  I actually find it humorous.  I really have to hold myself back from saying something!    Something that should only take a few seconds can take a full minute sometimes.
In contrast, I've had older students ask me for suggestions/critique even after I've said "You played so beautifully and really nailed this piece" and go on to list the nice things they've done.  I'm not going to make up a problem to solve. 

[pianowelsh]

I always aim to keep downtime to a minimum so i talk as they are playing a passage or technical problem ive asked them to do and I get them to repeat it while I exhort them/correct them etc...WHile they do that I scribble stuff down in their books.  Older ones I get around it by telling them they are old enough to write thier own notes...when they are writing they can play!!! HeHEHEHEHe!

[m1469]

You probably would have stopped her a long time ago if you were to relive that time.

Well, of course I did try to stop her whittling away the time when she first started doing this.  But, she wouldn't listen and would often just keep playing even over me asking her again.  So, something more drastic was needed, apparently.

The thing is, she knows she can express herself with me and she started doing this fooling around at the piano because I know she wants to express that part of her --a new part of her pianistic experience-- in front of me so I will enjoy it.  I do enjoy it and actually, I think it's important for her to both do and be able to feel that freedom in front of me.  However, she just needed to know that I still mean business, too.

I want to walk a very thin line on this with my students.  It's very important to me that they feel quite free to express themselves with me, yet, they need to know when to listen, too.  And of course, as they learn and grow(up), things change.  There are new stages and the teacher/student relationship has to reflect the personal and musical changes that are taking place for the student, so even with the same student there are new things to learn and the relatsionship will often need to be redefined.  I guess it was just that time.


m1469

[jpianoflorida]

.

One time a student was really getting on my nerves, being obstinate and lippy. I stood up and looked out the window and calmly said, " I can't teach you if you keep disagreeing with me like this." That really worked wonders.

Good one Cora....It reminded me that I have told students "I'm going to my office and i'll be back when you are ready to concentrate"    It worked!

[gyzzzmo]

Maybe you could put a couple of 220 Volt electrodes on the student's seat. Just give them a couple of 'Zaps' when they start playing. That WILL stop them, i can ensure you that....

gyzzzmo

[pianowolfi]

Yes the three "z" in your nick suggest a certain violent electrical attitude.    zzzzzzzzzz  ouch!

[jpianoflorida]

Maybe you could put a couple of 220 Volt electrodes on the student's seat. Just give them a couple of 'Zaps' when they start playing. That WILL stop them, i can ensure you that....

gyzzzmo

I like that one!     I joke with some students that I'm going to put a seat belt on the bench so they have to stay still!

[hyrst]

This is all so different to how I teach or how I feel when I teach!  I guess I empathise with feeling restless. 

I watch the kids faces very carefully (but discretely) to see where they are at during any given moment - and tailor my response to the moment.  Sometimes, they need more playing and less talking.  Sometimes they are tired after concentrating for 20 minutes.  Sometimes their attention is short and so we get up and down from the piano with differnet activities.  I think it is important to tailor the lesson to the student - and each student will be very different at different times during the lesson.  I think I need to be in control of the situation becuase it doesn't work to try and be in control of the student!

[m1469]

This is all so different to how I teach or how I feel when I teach!  I guess I empathise with feeling restless. 

I watch the kids faces very carefully (but discretely) to see where they are at during any given moment - and tailor my response to the moment.  Sometimes, they need more playing and less talking.  Sometimes they are tired after concentrating for 20 minutes.  Sometimes their attention is short and so we get up and down from the piano with differnet activities.  I think it is important to tailor the lesson to the student - and each student will be very different at different times during the lesson.  I think I need to be in control of the situation becuase it doesn't work to try and be in control of the student!

Obviously this is a good approach.  However, it seems you are assuming that this kind of observing and response does not happen with other teachers in this thread and their students, just because of the topic of the thread and some of the experiences shared within it. 


m1469

[lagin]

Someone already suggested doing what my teacher told me she does.  She simply, picks up their hands gently and places them back in their lap.  I haven't had to do that yet, but if it happens I usually ask them a question about whatever it is I am telling them about.  They have to stop to answer, and then I've gotten their attention back again.  Eg.  "This is an eighth note, it has a tail, and.."  *kid starts noodling* "Can you point to an eighth note in your piece?  Good, now can you guess what happens when two eighth notes are side by side?"  *kid is interested now and is looking at me drawing the two eighth notes in their book*  "Their tails get tied together, like this.  Now let's try to clap this rhythm, ect."

[lostinidlewonder]

I have a number of young students who play with the pedals while I talk to them. I let them do this so long I know that they are listening to me and remember what I tell them by testing the concepts I just presented them asking them to reproduce it. Sometimes it doesn't mean that they are not listening to you if they fidget.

To many of them playing the piano is fun, it is like a big toy with buttons, so then when we ask them to stop playing the keys they cannot help but keep playing with the piano in some way so they go for the pedals. I will not allow them to play any notes when I do not want them to, you just have to compete with the noise then.

When they do play when I want them to stop I won't give them a command to stop playing, they simply know that they shouldn't do it because I'll stop what I was going to say and give them a frown with a confused look (nothing unfriendly looking). They usually laugh at me then I say, "Hang on, let me tell you something" and continue on. Rarely they will play the piano again, but some have jokingly and I say "Come on we don't have much time left"

Kids hate to be told by someone else how to behave just as adults hate it. There is an easy way for children to know if you dissaprove of what they do without directly telling them with words. And they are so used to being told off with words they know and feel it when you dish it out yoruself to them. We can suggest the correct actions from them without commands. Give them the that choice to listen to you by asking for their attention not demanding it by telling them to stop what they are doing and totally focus on you.

Sometimes they can be so distracted it is ridiculous. I know one of my young students when she didn't get something right she would groan and make a real fuss. Every time she made  an error it would be a melodrama and she would literally collapse at the keyboard and groan like this was the hardest thing on earth to do.

I spent a few minutes with her, trying to persuade her to get into the learning process. I took her away from having to play the piano and I started to play, making the first notes very wrong and looking at her confused asking, "How come it's wrong?" she didn't bite, so I did it again and acted as if I totally didn't know what I was doing. She laughs, and I ask her again, "Come on, tell me what I'm doing wrong??" The game continues and I slowly lure her into answering my questions and slowly direct our attention to what we needed to study, giving her a pseudo power as teacher. When we get to the part she doesn't know and I ask her to please explain how to do it, when she "in her way" admits she cannot, you quietly hint at the answer or show her quickly then go immediately into the dumb "I dont know anything" mode. hehe, games I've played with distracted students I'll never forget.

[hyrst]

m1469, and others,

However, it seems you are assuming that this kind of observing and response does not happen with other teachers in this thread and their students, just because of the topic of the thread and some of the experiences shared within it. 

I apologise if I have given that impression - it is certainly not my opinion.  I would have hoped that I didn't give that sort of judgemental idea.   

Teaching is hard work.  I know that anyone on this forum is a committed teacher, trying their best and wanting to improve on that - otherwise they would not be participating in this forum.  I respect every one.

I too get my frustrations with student performance - usually because they don't make the progress I was hoping they would make (but I have realised I have unfairly high expectations - of myself as well as my students - and I am trying to learn to monitor  this.)  I have a lot to learn about teaching music - and I want to learn as much as I can.  I am also fairly new to being a full-time private teacher (having been a high school teacher a year ago), so I recognise I am still in a 'honey moon' phase.  I love teaching, and find every new development exciting.  (Plus, management wise, one on one teaching to someone who wants to learn what I am teaching them is a lot eaiser than dealing with a whole class of teenagers - and the memory is very fresh.)

What I shared was my experience - I was not meaning to imply that nobody else was like this.  It is pretty clear that other people do respond to their students - another current thread on lesson planning shows that. 

However, the part I can't relate to is thinking about using a seat belt or adversive training - even though it is all said in jest.  This is just not how I think.  But,  I am not saying I disapprove of those who can joke like this - it's just not my personality - and because of that, my students wouldn't see it as a joke if I said anything like that, either.  That is me - I just can't relate to that sort of thing. 

I also do empathise with how kids might feel - especially the younger ones - trying to sit still and be serious for half an hour.  I actually took up studying university by correspondence instead of tutorials because I could not stand sitting still for the 2 hours in lectures and things.  I would feel so restless it almost drove me to tears - so I never took in anything from the lectures.  If I, as an adult, could not cope then it would be very insensitive of me if I could not accept restlessness from my students.

I was only trying to share my thoughts - not to say they were exclusive or different to anyone else's.  I do apologise if I have given such an impression. 
Annah

[pizno]

The solution to this problem just came to me today.  I completely forgot - I used this technique teaching kids at a nature center where I taught for years.  I tried it on my student with the diddly fingers today.  When he started playing (or rather, he doesn't stop when he's done with something) and I need to talk to him - I address him in a very, very quiet voice.   He can hear that I'm speaking to him, but he has to stop playing in order to hear what I'm saying.  It works! 

Now, if I could get him to wear clean socks - or keep his shoes on! 

Pizno

[jpianoflorida]

there are several possibilities hyrst! you sound like a very caring teacher...here are the possibilities I am thinking of:

1) maybe you have a totally different teaching style that demands more respect than we do?

2) maybe you haven't had some of the specific "wired out, out of control, parents can't control them either students."

3)  your personality is different, so you don't see humour the way some of us do.


bottom line, it doesn't matter, we are all different and that is a good thing.    For example, I'm outgoing, love to go to sports, love being active, etc   but I have no desire to play computer or video games at all! and most people I know love spending time doing that, even adults!  The thought of playing solitaire or any card game on the computer is not something I have any interest in at all.

so hyrst, don't change anything about what you do!    We have diversity on this forum , we all know that.    There are very very many topics that we all have opposite views on.    Just visit the "anything but piano" board and you'll find that out.   I'm trying to stay away from that board for a while! lol

[pizno]

I feel the need to give an update on this 'playing while I'm talking student'.  He is really pretty fascinating.  So we're working on this very basic Faber piece.  He's playing these chords, and then he just goes off on this little improv at the end.  He's just fascinated with the possibilities.  I was kind of annoyed- since every time I had him go over the piece he kept doing this, then I realized it was really pretty amusing.  His musical mind just does not stop with Faber- he had to keep adding a more interesting ending.  Meanwhile, he keeps playing while I'm talking, but I'm getting used to it and am just ignoring it. 

pizno