playing with arm weight as opposed to fingers

[maxd]

Steinway players have adapted their technique over the decades to use the arm and wrist to push down on the keys but I have noticed that on 19th century pianos and fortepianos this is a sure recipe for making a shrill and hard sound.

the old pianos were light-actioned and cannot stand to be played with a hammer-like motion from the fingers, they must be caressed in order to regulate the velocity of the keystroke optimally without relying on the opposing weight of the keys.

on the one hand I am sick and tired of watching conservatory pianists bang away on old instruments which were meant to be played softly, on the other I realize that in an effort to make an ever-louder steinway the technique has been altered to suit the action of modern pianos, but at the expense of subtle nuance.

modern playing doesn't have the nuance of the classical and romantic times.

[invictious]

I happen to use arm weight. I am a thin person, that means difficult.

My joints refuse to bend, so basically, I play with fat fingers, so I don't use much fingers from strength.

my joints are like that, I have been trying to change, but my joints just won't bend.

At least I have a massive reach.

[pianowolfi]

 I play with fat fingers

So they don't fit between the black keys? 

[counterpoint]

modern playing doesn't have the nuance of the classical and romantic times.

There are some very brutal pianists around, but you can't generalize that

How do you like this:

[franzliszt2]

Using arm weight produces a much deeper stronger sound. Using fingers can be harsh.

Good players can play loud and keep a nice sound. Bad players just bang the keys

[ekirth]

If I don't use arm weight, then sound quality goes down drastically. Not to mention that I have small hands and thin fingers, so just using my fingers isn't gonna cut it (especially when trying to play, say, Rach pieces ).

[invictious]

Whoops, I meant FLAT fingers, not fat fingers. My hands are disproportionally huge.

That's why the flat fingers. I can't get them to curl naturally

That might cause fatigue easily if I constantly use arm weight, since I am so damn thing (5'11 and 110 pounds!0

[bench warmer]

I still contend that one hears what one thinks will be heard. In an experiment where you're blindfolded you can't tell whether someone is playing notes with just finger action or arm weight.

The piano action also makes no distinctionm between the two methods: a key is struck, the lever moves the whippen/jack & the hammer flies into the string.

It may be more difficult to control the dynamic range w/just fingers but the Tone can't change. It's a function of the hammers' velocity which is produced from the force that the key was struck with. (Force=ma=mg=Weight; it's all the same)

BTW, this is one of those topics where nobody will change what they believe no matter what empirical evidence exists.

[ted]

I have always deliberately cultivated a variety of techniques and touches. I don't think it is anywhere near as straightforward as theorists would have us believe. The musical acid test of a given technique, as far as I'm concerned, is always the sound it produces. This can be easily decided by making two or three different recordings of the same thing. The trouble with me is that I have found, contrary to what experts say, that the sounds I like best do NOT always result from the easiest and most naturally fluid or "correct" techniques.  Sometimes a really vital, interesting sound results from a very unorthodox, pedagogically "faulty" movement. This is especially so in improvisation, where hands and mind are in a constant state of rapid compromise.

So as I became older I steered away from saying this or that way is totally right or wrong and, at least as far as my own playing goes, adopted a very broadminded and experimental approach to these matters. 

[franzliszt2]

I still contend that one hears what one thinks will be heard. In an experiment where you're blindfolded you can't tell whether someone is playing notes with just finger action or arm weight.

The piano action also makes no distinctionm between the two methods: a key is struck, the lever moves the whippen/jack & the hammer flies into the string.

It may be more difficult to control the dynamic range w/just fingers but the Tone can't change. It's a function of the hammers' velocity which is produced from the force that the key was struck with. (Force=ma=mg=Weight; it's all the same)

BTW, this is one of those topics where nobody will change what they believe no matter what empirical evidence exists.

But there is evidence. If you listen carefully you can detect a huge range of sound from the piano. If you use fingers it is very metalic, and a very harsh, hollow sound. Perfect for pieces like Prokofiev Toccata, Ligeti etude no1 etc.. But you try playing Brahms concerto or Rach concerto with fingers..You'll soon (hopefully) find it sounds different. You should always use arm wieght anyway, it eases the pressure on the fingers.

Without physical demonstartion it is impossible to show, and if your teacher does not teach you about that sort of stuff you have a problem, as sound is the most important thing about music. How come two pianists never sounmd the same? Even on the same piano and same pieces? The piano has a HUGE range of sounds.

About the hammer action...Have you considered that the hammer stikes at different speeds. If you finger action it, you are essentially using the finger to launch it at the key. But using the arm, you are PUSHING the hammer into the string, creating a totally different sound.

Sound is the most essential thing to a pianist.

[mad_max2024]

It may be more difficult to control the dynamic range w/just fingers but the Tone can't change. It's a function of the hammers' velocity which is produced from the force that the key was struck with. (Force=ma=mg=Weight; it's all the same)

I may be wrong since I'm not a technician but that won't keep me from saying what seems logical to me 
The hammer is flexible and also vibrates when the key is struck, so the string will most likely vibrate differently according to the motion applied to it, it's not just a matter of force, the suddenness that force is built and the amount of time in which it is applied should also play a role.
To put it simply, the more sudden and hammered the key, the more the hammer vibrates altering the natural vibration of the string, causing a dirtier, longer and possibly stronger sound.
That would explain the different sounds and dynamics we can extract from what would seem like a very straightforward motion of simply force applied to the hammer and hammer hitting the string.

Sorry for my english but I'm not a native
[[]]

[rc]

When practicing and experimenting around, I never really notice such a distinction as arm and/or finger technique.  It's always seemed to me that you use both your arms and fingers in playing, in no way could they be seperate.  You use more or less weight (finger, arm, shoulder, body) depending on what you want to achieve.

I speculate that the idea of arm vs finger may have come from misunderstood teachings.  A student who tenses up her shoulders and arms may be told to use her arms more,  one who thumps without finesse may be told to use her fingers more...  Somewhere along the way people come to believe they are two seperate ways of playing.

The two most useful concepts I've come across were to play with ease, and to let my ear be the guide.  Thinking, talking and analysing about technique often complicates unnecessarily, when one simply needs to listen and feel.

[burstroman]

The end justifies the means.  A good pianist should have available all techniques which can produce the appropriate tone to create the musical interpretation intended.

[maxd]

I still contend that one hears what one thinks will be heard. In an experiment where you're blindfolded you can't tell whether someone is playing notes with just finger action or arm weight.

The piano action also makes no distinctionm between the two methods: a key is struck, the lever moves the whippen/jack & the hammer flies into the string.

It may be more difficult to control the dynamic range w/just fingers but the Tone can't change. It's a function of the hammers' velocity which is produced from the force that the key was struck with. (Force=ma=mg=Weight; it's all the same)

BTW, this is one of those topics where nobody will change what they believe no matter what empirical evidence exists.

bullshit


when using the weight of the keys one can strike the key and the energy of the impact will be absorbed by the mass of the key and transformed into VELOCITY.

in a light key-action the velocity is directly controlled by the movement of the fingers, hands, wrists etc..

striking the key will make the hammer shoot upwards uncontrollably.

the art is in giving the hammer just the right amount of velocity and momentum without relying on the weight of the key to contrast the hand movements and making each movement, however rough, smooth by inertia..

Most people who are trained pianists absolutely butcher pleyel, erard, broadwood pianos.. can't  play older bechsteins without making shrill 2D sounds..

chopin used to say that one needs to mould the keyboard..not strike it.. but this was before lead became so prominent in piano actions.

[nick]

My favorite subject.  I have found when comparing how I feel and the sound of playing at a fairly fast speed a given passage, that with the partial weight of the arm to produce the sound with fingers supporting that weight, that my wrists start to hurt. As soon as I use just fingers, going the same speed, no pain in wrists. If you place your hand on a table top and support the weight of the arm with a finger, and take your other hand and feel under the wrist of the supporting finger, you can feel tendons flexing and muscles working. I know the method of flexing up and down the wrist while playing to "release" the tension, but why produce it to begin with if not neededd? There is a lack of volume with using just fingers to produce the sound, but I don't mind as speed with clarity appeals to me. Others can play with speed and clarity with weight, like the concert pianist Alexander Peskanov, but not I.

Nick

[steve jones]

This is all very interesting, as I was actually watching a video on Youtube by John Young Bell, discussing this VERY matter, ie, the possibilities for articulation when using the fingers as opposed to purely the arm.

He made alot of sense I thought.

I'll try to find the link for you.

SJ

[nick]

There are some very brutal pianists around, but you can't generalize that

How do you like this:

Very good playing. This is not a piece though,  that generally "brutal playing " would apply.

Nick

[bench warmer]

bullshit

when using the weight of the keys one can strike the key and the energy of the impact will be absorbed by the mass of the key and transformed into VELOCITY.

in a light key-action the velocity is directly controlled by the movement of the fingers, hands, wrists etc..

Even allowing for the eloquent retort in your opening comment to what I posted, you seem to be saying  (among other things) that the (finger) force you hit the key with isn't the same as (arm) weight hitting the key (or even a rod from a piano fitted with diskclavier) ?
Force and weight are equivalent; that's been the basis of classical physics since Newton wrote the equations.

All you need to do is Control whichever action you use when stiking the key to get the effect in Volume you want. The Art in playing is integrating  the chords and notes together.

[franzliszt2]

There seems to be a HUGE misunderstanding here. Weight is not just used for volume, it is used to produce a better sound.

If you throw a hammer at a string, you have to release the hammer in order to throw it. The hammer will deceleate the second it leaves you hand, due to the friction of the piano mechanics etc...

If you push the hammer, you will be pushing it into the string, and produce a much fuller sound. Even in PPPPP sections, I use wieght if I want a full sound, as pppp is just soft, but still doesn't mean hollow.

I use weight most time, for many reasons.
1.....nicer sound
2.....Easier to play
3.....Takes strain away from fingers
4.....Bigger dynamic range
5.....Much more sound possibilty's

If you can't hear the difference, you need to get a teacher who can demonstrate and teach it properly, or seriously develop your ear.

[loops]

There seems to be a HUGE misunderstanding here. Weight is not just used for volume, it is used to produce a better sound.

If you throw a hammer at a string, you have to release the hammer in order to throw it. The hammer will deceleate the second it leaves you hand, due to the friction of the piano mechanics etc...

If you push the hammer, you will be pushing it into the string, and produce a much fuller sound. Even in PPPPP sections, I use wieght if I want a full sound, as pppp is just soft, but still doesn't mean hollow.

I use weight most time, for many reasons.
1.....nicer sound
2.....Easier to play
3.....Takes strain away from fingers
4.....Bigger dynamic range
5.....Much more sound possibilty's

If you can't hear the difference, you need to get a teacher who can demonstrate and teach it properly, or seriously develop your ear.

I completely agree. I have enough physics to understand the arguments about why it shouldn't matter.
But if you open your ears then you hear it does. So, arm weight it is.  (Since simple physics gives the wrong
result, then there must be assumptions in the use of Newton's equations above that in fact do not hold, such as,
perhaps, a perfectly elastic collision between hammer and string implying velecity is the only variable.)

[mephisto]

There is nothing wrong about physics. As Sandor - who advocates using arm-weight - sais the sound comes purely from the speed at wich the arms falls.

[rc]

As to listening for the difference - how much would the instrument account for?

The digital I practice on has no nuance at all, the upright at my parents home is low-end and doesn't have the best sound to my ears.

Would a low-end piano have restrictive nuance? or should I just listen closer for a difference?

[mike_lang]

Why not use both?

[lostinidlewonder]

If we are looking at how we make sounds on the piano we have to know in which context. If we are being scientific and simply observing one note, then we can confuse ourselves with lots of physical forces. As musicians this is useless because we consider sound in the context of music.

We all know that as we combine different sounds together creating music each sound supports the other creating the "feeling" the piece aims for. Playing a dynamic in one piece will sound different in another depending upon what was or will happen before and after we came to that dynamic. Music is this various, it cannot be tackled the same way all the time. So saying we should use either using arm weight or finger weight is short sighted because it depends what feels best for us and what the music we play calls for.

I disagree that steinway piano players play with a different action that 18th or 19th century piano players had. Yes the modern piano has a lot more dynamical range because of the technology that goes behind the instrument (not something you have to be interested in to be a good pianist at all), but it is a BAD excuse to say, I play bad because of my instrument, you should play the instrument to its fullest capabilities and this means a combination of all actions depending upon what the piece you are playing calls for. It's pretty simple really.

[maxd]

actually that is wrong.
old actions had a much different weight (lighter), the hammer blow distance and weight was also different and key depth for ALL classical romantic pianos as used by all composers were under 8 mm.

the pianos that began to have deeper key depth were the erards.

there is no such thing as arm weight or finger weight.

as far as I am concerned there is muscle control, and the UNKNOWN element of the ear/hammer interplay.

one thing is for sure, by using a technique made to fight heavy actions, you will get heavy playing.

[pianowelsh]

Hate to disappoint but actually its impossible to play the piano without any armweight atall. fingers arent heavy enough even on a harpsichord. Its not so much an issue of weight but balance. you need to balance the weight of you arm in such a way that it can be easily turned on/off - like a dynamic nob on a cd player. The wrist is like the stop tap on a radiator it allows the weight/energy of the big muscles to channel into the finger tips OR not. Lower wrist allows more kinetic power to come through, raised wrist cuts the power out like circuit breaker. Its about doing what is muscial and adjusting your position as and when necessary. This is the case on fortepianos and pianofortes.  Its not a period instrument issue its a musicality issue.  Ive always disagreed with teachers who asy this is how you must make sound.  Its reactive not prescriptive!

[mephisto]

Here is a video of Leif Ove Andsnes' teacher exlpainig how to play with arm-weight.