This is why all Asian Pianists sound the same..

[pianowelsh]

The piano firmament NEED to watch out. They are totally blind to the fact that the training that kids are getting in Places like the Beijing central school and the korean academy of fine arts etc etc is nothing short of phenominal. The Asians also have a work ethic and a discipline in the early years that westerners just havent got a clue about - really! in the next 10 years the majority of the 'best' pianists will be asian. It doesnt take a lot of forsight to see that. Anyone whos got hang ups about asians and their musicality and abilities on piano needs to wake up because the are posied to dominate VERY soon. Look at the competitions and see how many are korean chinese and Japanese, Indoneseian etc Even though many are studying abroad they are taking over the top places - because they work!!! Look and see who are the ones that get the scholarships to your conservatory or local music school.  Its the asian kids..because they work!! Of course there is an element of talent involved in success but the asian nations are no less blessed with talent than the west. They have some of the best pedagogical thinking and huge ammounts of national money being ploughed in (like the former USSR) and now look at the reputation that everyone attaches to pianists who come out of Russia.    I'll say it again.   WAKE UP!!   Go get'em all you fleet fingered asians - embarress them by your poetry and unassailable technical control.. Too often in west we veer TECHNIQUE, or MUSICALITY.   The asian schools who are extremely sesnitive to their reputation of 'all technique' havemade dramatic changes tot he way they are educating with lots of teacher training programmes and importing western teachers etc - they are listening and reacting - something we in the west are MUCH slower at doing!!!

[franzliszt2]

In the next 10 years the best pianists will not be asian. Look at the piano competition world, dominated by Asians yes, but how many of them go on to be big?

Asians dominate conservatoires for many reasons. The main being, that international students pay more money than hoem students, which means conservatoires are much happier to accept them. And most Asians want to study abroad (I think) so the 2 go hand in hand. The big conservatoires accept people with great techniques in general, I mean, who is going to accept a pianist with a bad technique? So the Asians fit that catorgory. Conservatoires are not that picky these days in terms of musicality in my opinion, it's all to do with technique. And thats fair enough when you look at it from the conseravtoires point of view.

About Asians working harder, I don't think they do at all. They work just as much as most students. Asians in general work harder than normal students, but against conservatoire students they are equally matched.

Asia has not got the great tradition of Russia. If you speak to some Russian pianists, you'll soon see how proud they are of the great past, and how they all link up to the greats. Tradition has a lot to do with it. Russian's will always have  huge say in the music world. Just look at the amount of them on the concert platform.

[shoenberg3]

In the next 10 years the best pianists will not be asian. Look at the piano competition world, dominated by Asians yes, but how many of them go on to be big?

Asians dominate conservatoires for many reasons. The main being, that international students pay more money than hoem students, which means conservatoires are much happier to accept them. And most Asians want to study abroad (I think) so the 2 go hand in hand. The big conservatoires accept people with great techniques in general, I mean, who is going to accept a pianist with a bad technique? So the Asians fit that catorgory. Conservatoires are not that picky these days in terms of musicality in my opinion, it's all to do with technique. And thats fair enough when you look at it from the conseravtoires point of view.

About Asians working harder, I don't think they do at all. They work just as much as most students. Asians in general work harder than normal students, but against conservatoire students they are equally matched.

Asia has not got the great tradition of Russia. If you speak to some Russian pianists, you'll soon see how proud they are of the great past, and how they all link up to the greats. Tradition has a lot to do with it. Russian's will always have  huge say in the music world. Just look at the amount of them on the concert platform.

Your post is flawed for many reasons, but just regarding your last paragraph, the tradition has to start somewhere; the Asians may be making history now.

[donjuan]

shoenberg, I'm happy so see how proud you are to be asian.

[pianowelsh]

Im not even asian but its not hard to see the truth of the situation. reputation and tradition only lasts so long. The great russian schools are in decline the far eastern ones are on the rise - fact! Im not ignorant of conservatoire students - I was one! and I considered that my 8 - 10 hrs of practice daily was 'hard working' - this was however my flatmates idea of a holiday - he was asian.  You cannot deny the presence of so many asians in the international competition fraternity. Each year more and more are getting to the finals and placing in the top positions. Increasingly asians are becoming jury members of the competitions which is also having an effect on the way the jury listen. Many venues stiock exclusively asian built pianos. Conservatoires do take in large numbers of asian students and yes partly because of the reasons you mentioned BUT also because far more apply than westerners..you know what that means?! grass roots music in asian countries is getting stronger and stronger...partly because of highly sucessfull music programmes like Yamaha and Suzuki et al and grassroots that are strong means lots of future generation pianists..Hence russia has been able to reign supreme for so long. However where russia is cutting back and back on what it spends on the state conservatoires...places like Korea, Japan, China are building whole new conservatoires and staffing them with world class teachers - many are crossing the borders from russia and are receiving the higher pay and working with diligent students who are keanly competitive and proactive in entering competitions - which corespondingly make the teachers look good!  This is a crucial time for asian pianists - they are able to command recognition that previously was not easy to come by. If their governements continue to encourage the arts - I can see the face of classical music changing in a decade. Look we already have a que of asians signed for decca and gracing our magazine shelves and there are unnummbered ranks waiting to take over.

[shoenberg3]

shoenberg, I'm happy so see how proud you are to be asian.

Do I sense sarcasm, or am I just paranoid? Maybe it's the mental anguish from waiting for Stanford results

[nisa]

russia will  be always great in the music world ,no doubt . If someone thinking that russia in decline then i would say go to moscow or s.pterburg's konservatory and visit their class.
Teaching in russia not all only about technic but musicality in the first place.
Asians very good but still long way to reach Richters ,Horowitz ,Gould or Schnabel level of interpretations.

[r_a_y]

Asians very good but still long way to reach Richters ,Horowitz ,Gould or Schnabel level of interpretations.

So if there is one asian like Richters ,Horowitz ,Gould or Schnabel, you would say that Asians are good? that doesn't make sense....

or do you mean if EVERY asian could perform like Richters ,Horowitz ,Gould or Schnabel.......wow...really a long way to go....i could not wait to see such a race...not necessarily asians

[maxd]

asians no doubt have a better history regarding the blending of technique with expression.
one just has to look at the martial arts to see how far they take their training.
the only thing that will save future pianists, though, is INDIVIDUAL EXPRESSION.

one thing asians do not perhaps excel at is being individuals.

it is highly unlikely to have a chopin coming out of asia, but perhaps a Mozart, who is more socially-oriented might come out given the circumstances.

[franzliszt2]

The one thing I do notice about asians is that they do a lot of practice in one big go. Like 4-5 hours at a time sometimes. I heard about one asian, who used to practice like 12 hours a day, and he was found sleeping in practice rooms and stuff haha. But does that make him hard working? Ot just insane? I think it is this sort of thing that makes them sound boring. Sitting in a practice room for 12 hours a day is boring, no matter how many pieces you have, it gets boring, and that will come across in the playing. I think it is down to what they do outside the practice room that counts. A lot if them are very focused, but I think after practice you need to relax, go to the pub or whatever. The majority of asians where I study don't do that! My teacher says it's essential to live a balanced life, and turn off from piano when you leave the practice room. I meet so many, who everyday, will go to bed early, in preperation for the next days practice! It's ridiculous. Thats my explanation. I don't think it is possible to say that asians are boring becasue  of their training or whatever. If you have talent it will shine through regardless of training to some degree.

[elevateme]

name a fantastic asian pianist that isnt lang lang.

[jakev2.0]

Yefim Bronfman.

[donjuan]

Yefim Bronfman.

Oh come on, Uzbekistan may be considered central Asia, but do you really think of Bronfman as an "asian guy?"

I think of Jackie Chan as an asian guy.  I think of Mao Zedong as an asian guy.

[cygnusdei]

I've always thought Mitsuko Uchida was a force to be reckoned with. She came in 2nd in the Chopin competition in 1970. IMHO her Mozart K. 466 with Jeffrey Tate is absolutely perfect (listen to the Beethoven cadenza). Then again her live performance of Beethoven Concerto no. 4 with Zubin Mehta (on DVD) is crap - seems like she was too busy making faces she forgot to make music. But I have more respect for her than say, Perahia. Her Chopin sonatas are heads and shoulders above Perahia's awkward offerings.

[jakev2.0]

Oh come on, Uzbekistan may be considered central Asia, but do you really think of Bronfman as an "asian guy?"

JS Bach - quarter Chinese, quarter black - all man.

[opus10no2]

Whites are a Culture.

Blacks are a Breed.

Asians are a Race.

[bflatminor24]

No, they're all races.

[jakev2.0]

Yep. Blacks, Asians, 100m Sprint, Whites, 200m hurdles...all races

[pianowelsh]

Im sorry to labour this BUT compared to the Golden Era of Moscow and st petersburg the departments there are nothing like as good as they used to be - nothing like.  Often the last people to see the decline are the people in the decline - nor am I saying that Moscow isnt a good school - it is still in the top half dozen in the world but its not where it used to be and other schools are advancing fast. The propblem is with Russian school that they wallow in the passed... So many big corporations do this when their product starts to fade they attempt to remind the people of when their product was unsurpassable so that they will think they are buying inpt quality and heritage. It usually only works so long.  Im sure as you say Russian pianism will always have 'A' place but we should not and in fact cannot recognise the enormous strides being made by the Asian nations in terms of piano pedagogy and performance. One has to remember at the time when Russia Had a host of names at the top - Western Classical music had barely been introduced to some of these nations. now they are opposing the top slots - often. Whoever mentioned about the lazy asian sleeping in the practice room...HeHeHE! there will alwasy be some who will just try to make it look good or try and keep up with the crowd and fail.  That's life unfortunately.  But I know concrete examples of asians in my own school who due to their extreme efficiency and long hard hours - and I heard them practice they werent wasting time!! would be able to recieve a New Chopin etude say monday night in their piano lesson - they woulod go to a practice room...by practice room closing time they would have it down at half tempo. By piano class thursday that etude would be memorised and upto tempo and  to a level to do class with HOD. 4 days to learn a Chopin etude to pass standard isnt bad and it was common..not exceptional!  To be honest with the comments about asians being so far behind with regard to interpretation - that is true ignorance. Why do you presume to say that an asian person is any more or less predisposed to understand a piece of classical music.  It is as far removed from or culture and times as it is from an asian today and by my experience asians tend to be very widely read on literature surrounding the works they play - more so than many westerners - which is shamefull as the asians often have to translate the books as they go! Another point which I will not let you off on is the enshrining of the performances of Neuhaus, Richter etc some of the performances they gave were truelly awefull and showed almost total lack of understanding OR worse blatant disregard for the context of music they were playing. We do ourselves no favours to put pianists of any race or generation on a pedastool.. they are all capabale of being truely BAD.  Enjoy people for what they are!!!

[franzliszt2]

Read Charles Rosen's book called piano notes. In the chapter competitions and conservatoires ( I think, but it could be concerts) there is an amazing bit about the greats from the past, and bad performances. The point is, the great people never have a boring performance, it's either great, or awful. The standard conservatoire student will produce the same performance everytime, which will always be normal. So I think your comment on Richter is a bit unfair, as he probably had one of the greatest understanding of music ever.

The Asian I mentioned was an incredibly unlazy asian, he would fall asleep becasue he had been in the practice room for 12 hours and he simply passed out. Which in my opinion is unhealthy, and I'm sure people will agree with that.

To learn a Chopin etude in an evening at half speed is just the norm for conservatoire students. To learn a Chppin etude in 4 days and give a unique and musical performace is a great achievment. I don't belive any student could do that in 4 days unless they were truly exceptional.  I get given pieces, and I'm expected to learn them to a high standard and memorised in one week. Everyone gets that, not just the Asians.  The Asians at my school don't stand out at all, techncally there are people a lot better than them. The russians stand out the most at my school.

I think Asians are just like anyother race, a few are good, most are bad. At my school most people do at least 6 hours a day, Asians may do 12, but they are not the best at my school, so that speaks volumes.

[ramseytheii]

To learn a Chopin etude in an evening at half speed is just the norm for conservatoire students. To learn a Chppin etude in 4 days and give a unique and musical performace is a great achievment. I don't belive any student could do that in 4 days unless they were truly exceptional. 

I was initially wary about posting to this thread because it seems so stupid, but I just wanted to add a small idea and anecdote.

Before I learned the Chopin Barcarolle, I had listened to it through my entire childhood and growing up, in at least a dozen different recordings.  I am the type of person who becomes more critical of things I love rather than more blind.  I was critical of a lot of these recordings, even those by great pianists.  I heard the piece a bit differently.  I was partly obsessed with it, though I never played it.  When I sat down to learn it, I learnt it in a week, and also made it my own.  This is because the learning process is so much more than playing at the piano.

If you devote your entire attentions when you listen to pieces, you are learning a tremendous amount!  If you listen to many different recordings, as K. Zimmerman has his students do, you are excercising your listening, and seeing what is possible, and combining the best elements of many various view points, and hopefully separating the wheat from the chaff.  Of course learning a piece you have heard a thousand times has its own challenges, but if you are clever and creative, and have a bit of confidence in yourself, it will be much less of a challenge than learning an unfamiliar piece from scratch.

Walter Ramsey

[pianowelsh]

Agreed walter and its true that most of the asian pianists I still know have vast recording collections and listen to the works they are studying and (lisening ahead) all the time - ie when doing accademic work and eating etc etc.  I dont consider that laziness - I think its very wise - it gives a layering of interpretation.  Its like a fine cheese maturing.  I shall not comment anymore on pianists of my own college because its clear that they are just out of this world compared to franzliszts school. Although in their defense I can say that this was by no means a one off feat by one student but a regular occurance. A noticeable trait however was that they were excellent and strong on the canonical repertoire but would tend with one exceptin to shy away from new music (ie written 1980+). By the way I didnt say it was perfect in 4 days I said it was reaching a bearly passable standard. As for any conservatoire student learning an etude in one evening session to get through reliably at half tempo - I would say NO! its not normal to learn the winter wind or the op10/1 or op10/10 in a couple of hours  - not even close. If it were so every conservatoire student should do all 24 etudes it the fisrt year as a technical test as they have learnt them all in about a month anyway!  i have read and infact disected Charles Rosens book 'piano notes'.  I disagreed with him and his theories on many levels.

[opus10no2]

There have been occasions where I have heard a pianist playing, and thought they sounded good.

Then I discovered they were asian and I was surprised.

In other instances I have seen an asian play, and prejudged them for being asian, and their playing sounded false and unnatural.

I may be racist, but I am not willing to admit it yet 

[elevateme]

if you highlight this smily face it looks asian 

[pianowelsh]

there have been occassions when i have heard 'A' pianist playing and thought they sounded good. 905 of people who call themselves pianists dont play well! of the elite, a few are asian.

[super666lucifer]

I've sometimes refused to go to a concert if it's an Asian with the total stereotypical biography...."Born in China, began playing piano aged 1 month, forced to practice, aged 10 plays all Chopin etudes, aged 16 wins big competition, aged 26, still entering competitions"

You just know what to expect, all right notes, and no passion. Full of flying arms, stupid faces, and riddiculous gestures. It's so false, I'd rather pay to see an interesting pianist.

[chromatickler]

To learn a Chopin etude in an evening at half speed is just the norm for conservatoire students. To learn a Chppin etude in 4 days and give a unique and musical performace is a great achievment. I don't belive any student could do that in 4 days unless they were truly exceptional.

to generalize all 24 chopin etudes into 1 entity is racist. there are hard chopin etudes and there are easy chopin etudes.

if you can't learn and memorize the 10/9 up to performance tempo after one hour of concentrated practice, you really shouldn't be in a conservatory.

however, if you could play the 10/2 up to performance level after 4 days, you are officially the best pianist in the history of the instrument.

[bflatminor24]

Not really. Neither of those statements are true. And it has nothing to do with "racism."

People learn differently. Some take longer to memorize, some take longer to learn notes, and some take longer to polish a piece. And 10/9 and 10/2 aren't at opposite ends of the piano literature in terms of difficulty. I wouldn't make any value judgments about pieces, especially blanket statements.

I've heard pianists play Islamey but who can't count simple rhythms in Bach.

~Max~

[opus10no2]

I've heard pianists play Islamey but who can't count simple rhythms in Bach.

:jake:

[elevateme]

to generalize all 24 chopin etudes into 1 entity is racist. there are hard chopin etudes and there are easy chopin etudes.

if you can't learn and memorize the 10/9 up to performance tempo after one hour of concentrated practice, you really shouldn't be in a conservatory.

however, if you could play the 10/2 up to performance level after 4 days, you are officially the best pianist in the history of the instrument.

hmm i dont think so. different people find different things harder. for example, 10/2 might not be difficult for one person, whereas someone else might never be able to play it. for 10 2 it all depends on the quality of your practice and the strength of your supposedly weak fingers. i would not say that someone who could learn it up to scratch in 4 days is the best pianist in the history of the instrument.

[opus10no2]

Your inexperience is sadly all too obvious.

[maxd]

The problem is the 'bla bla bla' attitude which sorrounds the teaching of the piano..

once upon a time there were artists who were teachers to other artists, none of this 'feeding belt'  business which is modern teaching.

you need to relax your body and let your spirit guide you, understand that your role is to communicate a truth.

chopin said no more than 2 hours per day otherwise you begin to play without deep concentration..

you will all become paid musicians, but will you be able to subtly change people's lives?

That's what ends up happening when you play according to the spirit inside yourself..

[pianowelsh]

OK guys stop the bickering. I should have sighted specific examples to begin with but didnt because of anonimity..but the students in question learned op10/1, op10/8, op10/12, op25/6, op25/10, 25/12 in this way and this very fast style.  Im not asking whether you think they can do it - I know they can I saw them do it. There is circumstancial evidence! You will aslo have to take it from me that it was a good level of playing which would just about satisfy the pass criterior of a UK conservatoire..depending on the year of course because depending on who marks you the level expected can be higher or lower by a fraction. Thats life.  Agreed Im not saying learning these pieces fast means they are any better - far from it! but it does show that they put in concentrated hard work, which was really the point in that particular post. I would never say anything as stupid as Asian pianists are better than american or french or whatever pianists nor would I reverse the equation. Talent can be found anywhere and IS. Another thing which seems to be missing discussion is that there are many Americans and French etc who are asian by race if not birth! they have always known a western culture but have in many instances fostered an asian work ethic. This is the case in many International competitions...mummy and daddy moved to US or Europe so the kids could have a western education = very regular occurance.

[franzliszt2]

The etudes you mention can be learnt in very short spaces of time.

op10 no1 can be learnt in a night by a lot of people, it's all arpeggio's, in different keys, some harder than others. It is short, and once you have the technique it just floats along. If you spend an hour on the 1st page learning it in every key, you'll learn the etude in no time.

Op10 no 8, the middle section is the only really tricky bit. The rest is just arpeggio's.

Op10 no12, that aint that bad, it's just LH strength.

Op25no6...Ok very hard, but again, if you have a solid double third technique in the 1st place, it can't be that bad, it's very easy to learn, just hard to play well.

Op25no 12, thats easy to learn, one of the easiest Chopin etudes, it is all the same.

I think the notes should be there after a very short space of time if you are at a conservatoire. To play them well will take a long time. I've seen people learn them fast, and not just asians. Just because the person you mentioned that done this was asian, doesn't mean that he/she is in any way superior.

Non Asians have learnt things at mega speed as well, Artur Pizzaro learn Brahms 2nd concero in 3 days!!! And performed it. Thats what I call impressive learning skills!

[elevateme]

Your inexperience is sadly all too obvious.

MY inexperience?? haha read your "octave marvel" thread.

either grow up, stop acting like a prat, and listen to other people or *** off

[bflatminor24]

Non Asians have learnt things at mega speed as well, Artur Pizzaro learn Brahms 2nd concero in 3 days!!! And performed it. Thats what I call impressive learning skills!

Uhh, John Ogdon sight read Brahms' Piano Concerto 2 in concert. And who says Asians play faster? All of the technically outstanding pianists are non-Asian. Pollini, Hamelin, Argerich, Ian Pace, Jonathan Powell, Francesco Libetta, etc.

[opus10no2]

Uhh, John Ogdon sight read Brahms' Piano Concerto 2 in concert. And who says Asians play faster? All of the technically outstanding pianists are non-Asian. Pollini, Hamelin, Argerich, Ian Pace, Jonathan Powell, Francesco Libetta, etc.

Ian Pace's tech is as outstanding as a rodent phallus.

MY inexperience?? haha read your "octave marvel" thread.

either grow up, stop acting like a prat, and listen to other people or *** off

I know you are, so what am I? 

op10 no1 can be learnt in a night by a lot of people, it's all arpeggio's, in different keys, some harder than others. It is short, and once you have the technique it just floats along. If you spend an hour on the 1st page learning it in every key, you'll learn the etude in no time.

The point is't learning the notes - it's getting them at a competitive tempo and accurate in a short space of time.

25/11 is difficult for this, the motion and figuration used in it is quite unique, to play this in tempo within a short space of time is simply impossible unless you're the greatest pianist ever.

10/1 isn't simply 'a load of arpeggios' - it is a test of accuracy and endurance at fast tempo, with unique arpeggios that aren't found elsewhere.

And 10/2 is a whole new deal - there are motions in this piece that practically can't be found elsewhere in the entire piano literature. Mastering this piece is almost like mastering a new instrument.


Speed of 'learning a piece' can be impressive, but where it counts is the speed with which it is performed.

Observe Yundi Li - not one of the finest fast learners, but I bet he could whip your ass at octaves.

[bflatminor24]

Opus10No2:

You should quit wearing your ego on your shoulders. Chopin Etude 10/2 isn't that ridiculous. It's difficult, but nothing out of range for an average advanced college student. It's not like learning a new instrument. If any piano literature is close to other instruments, it would be avant-garde music found in nancarrow, finnissy, xenakis or ligeti, etc.

The harmonies found in 10/1 are quite common. Have you analyzed them?

You think Ian Pace has no technical ability? Lol. That doesn't even warrant a reply.

You shouldn't be so arrogant with your opinions, as if they are so sacrosanct that nobody DARE disturb them. You also shouldn't go around bragging about how big your cock is when everyone knows you're hung like a tadpole.

 

[opus10no2]

I don't think you understand the point - the 10/2 is a Chopin Etude, it is considered more as a measuring stick than as a feat in itself.
Playing it at extreme speeds is indicative of profound mechanical ability and alot of intimate time spent with the piece itself - because practically nothing in the literature could adequately prepare you for it.


And about Pace - he has technical ability - for sure, but actually the music that he primarily plays isn't well suited to cultivation of traditional pianistic dexterity, it cultivated geographic command of the keyboard and great memory for note literation - as opposed to note patterns, but it is actually poorly suited to developing raw mechanical ability - dexterity of the fingers and wrists.

[elevateme]

i suppose it depends on how fast you class extreme speeds

[opus10no2]

https://www.suavisartists.ch/Vadim%20Rudenko/Rudenko1MP3.wav 

[elevateme]

how old is that? because either it's crap quality or it's been edited. either way i still think you can play it slower than that and still be up to concert standard speed.

[opus10no2]

True, but comparing this recording the the respective fastest recordings of all of the other Chopin Etudes - this is the most unique, rarest, and hardest to achieve - ie. the figuration empleoyed by chopin in this etude is the one that the rest of the repertoire will help you least with...no single piece in the repertoire is as fatiguing for the outer fingers, which are often frighteningly underdeveloped even in some of the top 'concert pianists'.

[elevateme]

youre obsessed with it. its not as hard as youre making it out to be

[opus10no2]

You evidently don't understand

The 10/2 simply demnnds the most work because it, of all the chopin etudes, uses the least common pianistic figurations and the most intensive use of 3/4/5 dexterity in all Chopin, Liszt, Rachmaninov and Chopin-Godowsky etudes.

[jakev2.0]

I don't think you understand the point - the 10/2 is a Chopin Etude, it is considered more as a measuring stick than as a feat in itself.
Playing it at extreme speeds is indicative of profound mechanical ability and alot of intimate time spent with the piece itself - because practically nothing in the literature could adequately prepare you for it.

How about playing chromatic runs with combinations of 3-4-5 as suggested by Cortot and others? 

[bflatminor24]

youre obsessed with it. its not as hard as youre making it out to be

I completely agree. 10/2 is tripping about 10/2.

Guess what bro, IT'S NOT THAT DIFFICULT. I'm sure most of us have played works of greater difficulty. I know I have.

~Max~

[opus10no2]

How about playing chromatic runs with combinations of 3-4-5 as suggested by Cortot and others? 

This isn't actually used in performance...just in practice.

And this is still considerably easier than the figuration in 10/2.

I completely agree. 10/2 is tripping about 10/2.

Guess what bro, IT'S NOT THAT DIFFICULT. I'm sure most of us have played works of greater difficulty. I know I have.

~Max~

I still don't think you've understood what I've said.

In absolute terms, there are other pieces which may be more difficult to bring up to 'standard performance tempo'.

But we're talking about Chopin Etudes here, and I'm not talking about 'standard tempo', I am talking about competitive tempos, tempos that turn heads in piano competitions, that inspire adulation for the sheer athletic ability of the least used fingers.

Bflatminor, just how 'difficult' do you think it is to play the 10/2 like this :

https://www.suavisartists.ch/Vadim%20Rudenko/Rudenko1MP3.wav

[elevateme]

ffs please stop posting that link. weve already heard it and think it's fantastic, ok?

10/2 is not the only chopin etude that uses the "least common pianistic figurings"
there are many others which have technical patterns that are equally as rare.

10/2 however has one thing which makes it much easier to learn then you are making out - it is repetitive. so obviously if the figurings are very rare they will be difficult to start (for most people), but once you have one bar up to speed you can employ the same technique pattern - for the rest of the whole study.

[opus10no2]

ffs please stop posting that link. weve already heard it and think it's fantastic, ok?

10/2 is not the only chopin etude that uses the "least common pianistic figurings"
there are many others which have technical patterns that are equally as rare.

No, there aren't, some are pretty rare, but involve 1/2/3 dexterity, and are therefore easier to adapt to.

The 25/11 is a rare figuration, but it involves more than just 4/5 dexterity, and it's simply not as rigorous, although it does have the most difficult metronome marking.

10/2 however has one thing which makes it much easier to learn then you are making out - it is repetitive. so obviously if the figurings are very rare they will be difficult to start (for most people), but once you have one bar up to speed you can employ the same technique pattern - for the rest of the whole study.

You obviously haven't played it...each new bar(excepting repetition) is a new challenge to get up to tempo.

And the main problem, apart from raw speed dexterity, is endurance, however short it is - NO PIECE in the common repertoire demands such intense use of the outer fingers.

The outer finger dexterity of a pianist is what really seperates a virtuoso from a pianist with a 'good technique'.