Halleluja, I have seen the light

[asyncopated]

www.shroudstory.com   should explain why i believe Jesus Christ died and was ressurrected. 

In your defence, I have to say that the original scientist involved made a real big mess of dating the shroud.  I hope that they have a chance to correct their mistake -- but from what I read, there seems to be consences to there being a mistake on the initial C-14 dating, putting it closer to the time of christ.

Like I say, I would like to know what happened in the science and where it went wrong.   Amazing that this was done independently at 3 labs -- very good ones at that, and still the mistakes were not spotted.

I suppose one important lesson is that one has to take much more care with dating objects that have been continuously handled and modified by humans over a period of time.  From what i've read, it's not the dates the are wrong but the sample that was taken was from a patch which was use to repair the shroud. 

we kill him each day that we hate a brother or sister.  whatever we do to someone else - we do to him.  i'm not saying any of us PURPOSELY hate one another.  it's just in our natures before we are taught by God to love others as He loved us.  that's why we NEED a savior.  we would have WORLD PEACE without GOD if we were perfect.

I don't really hate anyone. On the contrary, from what I know most of my friends like me as well + I didn't vote for either bush or blair and did march against going to war in iraqi  -- do I get brownie points?  Anyway, you have to admit that from my point of view this is slighly ironic since there has been a huge number of deaths in the name of god.

[pianistimo]

yes!  that is exactly why scientists are excited because it helps them realize that stratigrophy? is confirmed to be actually better than C-14 dating, in terms of accuracy.  i found this in wikipedia.  the things that are found to be similar in rock in a dig and for that matter -  around the world - at a certain level of rock strata.  that is why i am very facinated by 'under the sea' finds. 

also, radiogenic dating neglects the history of the individual atoms before they congealed to form solid rocks. (like with volcanic lava that does that rock cycle). the dating itself is based on a decay from 1950 AD if counted backwards and another date (5,430?) (or something ) if dated another method.  but, no matter - what i'm wondering about is the decay rate when you date things older than 3000 years.  seems that strata would help clarify the dates?  you know - combining a lot of dating methods together!

now, with this shroud of turin - it is found that the dating methods to the middle ages were incorrect.  that is a RECENT find.  forget why the C-14 date was off.  have to read it again.  i don't think anything was allowed to be 'added' to the shroud and it was kept pretty well intact.  but, of course, air - and such.  what is amazing is that the x-ray image is negative (just as an x-ray would be) and shows a reverse image, too.  also, that the fibers can be analyzed 3D which gives a lot of room to find errors if there are any.  none are found so far.  it IS linen. it DOES have browning and sugars (indicating blood?) on it. and it does come from first century techniques (such as the wash that was found on the linen).

[mad_max2024]

Like I say, I would like to know what happened in the science and where it went wrong.   Amazing that this was done independently at 3 labs -- very good ones at that, and still the mistakes were not spotted.

I must say I don't know much about the shroud of turin but from what I understood from pianistimo's site, the problem was not in the C-14 dating itself, it was in the sampling.
They took samples from a mended area of the shroud that was more recent and chemically different from the rest.
Physicists and Chemists are not necessarily good at archeology, they probably just took a random sample and tested it assuming the whole shroud was homogenous

Let noone say science never makes mistakes, making mistakes and learning from them is the very definition of science...

[[]]

[thalbergmad]

now, with this shroud of turin - it is found that the dating methods to the middle ages were incorrect.  that is a RECENT find.  forget why the C-14 date was off.  have to read it again.  i don't think anything was allowed to be 'added' to the shroud and it was kept pretty well intact.  but, of course, air - and such.  what is amazing is that the x-ray image is negative (just as an x-ray would be) and shows a reverse image, too.  also, that the fibers can be analyzed 3D which gives a lot of room to find errors if there are any.  none are found so far.  it IS linen. it DOES have sugars (indicating blood?) on it. and it does come from first century techniques (such as the wash that was found on the linen).

You have not answered my questions.

Why is the image longer on one side than the other?
Why is the body so out of proportion?
Why no mention in the Bible?
Why did it suddenly appear?
Why no provenance?

In addition:
1. Hair hangs down despit the body supposedly being prone.
2. Evidence of hairline being re touched.
3. Evidence of forehead being retouched.
4. Head on the front is a different size to head on the back.
5. Hands and arms are impossibly long. well out of proportion.
6. No ears?

FRAUD, FRAUD, FRAUD.

ANSWER MY QUESTIONS.

Show me a man who is 6 ft 8 on the front and 6ft 10 on the back and i will begin to believe.

[pianistimo]

fibers, when bloody - bloody well bloody - can stretch.  john 19:34 'but one of the soldiers pierced his side with a spear, and immediately there came out blood and water.'  Jesus was ALREADY dead - so this was one of the last things they did to him (they were going to break his legs and hasten death - but he was already dead).  so, right after these things - joseph of arimathea, being a disciples of Jesus (but a secret one), for fear of the jews, asked pilate that he might take away the body of Jesus; and pilate granted permission...so they took the body of Jesus and bound it in linene wrappings with spices, as is the burial custom of the jews.'

now, the shroud is known to have the burial techniques of the first century and not of middle ages.  also, noone can figure out how the images are imprinted onto the linen.  we don't even know the techniques themselves!  there is NOTHING to compare this technique WITH.

john 20:5  and 'stooping and looking in, he saw the linen wrappings lying there; but he did not go in.  simon peter therefore also came, following him, and entered the tomb; and he beheld the linen wrappings lying there.'

now, in my estimation (and i could be wrong - but the dating is interesting to be 1st century) -  the 'face-cloth' was sewn to the rest of the shroud. 

'and the face-cloth, which had been on His head, not lying with the linen wrappings, but rolled up in a place by itself. 

now, the linen wrappings COULd have completely wrapped his body head to toe - and the 'head wrapping' been an additional wrapping that was unable to be completed over the entire body because of the jews 'preparation day' and laid in the garden in a new tomb (john 19:41), in which no one had yet been laid.  this would indicate, to me, that the fibers would be holding mostly only Jesus blood and flesh - and yet - when the x-ray or ressurrection happened - his body and flesh were suddenly changed.  this is the part where the 'reverse' image happened.  who can 'make' a reverse image like this from being dead to alive?  we don't know HOW GOD DID THIS.  it is not a typical type of thing.  otherwise we would find others just like it.

it would be interesting to find out the history of who had the shroud - when. 

[thalbergmad]

Stretch on the back and not the front, how? why?

No evidence of human blood and if there were, it could have been added at any time.

Answer the rest of my questions.

It is a FRAUD and you have nothing.

Many linens were brought back from Palestine to the Medieval Europe. Even if it is 2,000 years old, that does not prove the image is.

The image looks like many Medieval images of Jesus. This is becuase the Shroud is Medieval.

The image is composite, which explains the slight 3D effect.

FRAUD, a clever one, but still a FRAUD

[pianistimo]

thal, our bodies make sugars and the browning is the blood.  explain how the blood is seeping at his hands, feet, and around the crown of thorns and ESPECIALLY HIS SIDE. this is indicative of the same wounds of JESUS. 

also, it can stretch on the back and not the front if it is ROLLED.  that is exactly what the bible says it was.

if i remember, from reading about it - it WAS brought from palestine - by queen helene (constantines wife?).  what makes me believe that the shroud COULD be the real thing - is that no others have been found like it.

here's another site with doctor's analysis:
www.delayedreaction.com  even the blood FLOW is consistent with gravity - as it left a visible x-ray (dark areas) where the blood WAS.

[cmg]

Thal is correct. The shroud has been determined to be a fraud.  This is well-documented.  Of course, with Google these days, one can support any position one chooses to believe . . . the internet, you know, if full of information and information is not necessarily reliable or accurate.  It is just "information." 

Personally, I think the shroud is really the old Tunic of Tullahoma (Tennessee) that was found wrapped around a taco shell imprinted (miraculously) with the likeness of Pianistimo, and revered in all cultures that value pearly scales and crisp octaves. 

But, once again, this is only conjecture.

[thalbergmad]

thal, our bodies make sugars and the browning is the blood.  explain how the blood is seeping at his hands, feet, and around the crown of thorns and ESPECIALLY HIS SIDE. this is indicative of the same wounds of JESUS. 

also, it can stretch on the back and not the front if it is ROLLED.  that is exactly what the bible says it was.

if i remember, from reading about it - it WAS brought from palestine - by queen helene (constantines wife?).  what makes me believe that the shroud COULD be the real thing - is that no others have been found like it.

here's another site with doctor's analysis:
www.delayedreaction.com

It displays the correct wounds as descirbed in the Bible, because it was especially designed to give credence to the bible. In other words a 14 century forgery designed to fool the population and keep money and people flocking to the church.

Rolling would not stretch 3 inches and would create distortion. The front does NOT belong to the back. They are 2 seperate images.

What makes you believe in it is your faith, nothing else. You have nothing else.

No other shrouds or images of Jesus eh, what about the Mandylion?

FRAUD FRAUD FRAUD.

Shroud  - FRAUD
Spear of Destiny - FRAUD

[mad_max2024]

If sugar indicated blood, we'd all be vampires...

[pianistimo]

they mention with recent scientific evidence that the 'holland cloth' - was something sewn into the shroud and dated instead of the shroud itself.  the shroud was in a fire (somewhere in france) and a nun sewed a patch on and it had dye and mordent that DOESN't SHOW ANYWHERE ELSE. 

so, they took another sample recently - from the older continuous shroud.  it was proven to be much older than the sample in 1988.  it didn't even have anything to do with the C-14 dating.

ps the sugar indicates flesh and body fluids and different stress chemicals that the body releases.  the browning, is what i understand is the blood.  also, the x-ray of dark areas that were over the exact wounds that Christ had.  they didn't have the ultra-violet techniques previously to discover what was unseen before.

[thalbergmad]

Pianistimo - please stop going back and adding/amending previous posts, why not create new ones.

1. The image of the head has been added on, not the cloth.
2. No mention of the Shroud before 1350.

There has been other shrouds, it has been reproduced.

It is very similar to many other paintings and medieval images of Christ, because it was made in the 13th/14th centuries.

It is a clever FRAUD. You have NOTHING

[mad_max2024]

Personally, I think the shroud is really the old Tunic of Tullahoma (Tennessee) that was found wrapped around a taco shell imprinted (miraculously) with the likeness of Pianistimo, and revered in all cultures that value pearly scales and crisp octaves. 

But, once again, this is only conjecture.

Add it to wiki and it will become true...

[pianistimo]

it could not have been made during those times - because the 'wash' of the cloth was from the first century.

you are saying that the image was added later - but how would it date to the same time?  it is intricately a PART of the fabric.  but, you are welcome to your beliefs as i know that i am stubborn too, until proven without a doubt, wrong.

you all are FOR science- now you don't believe labs.  this is a RECENT finding.  that it was inaccurately dated before because a piece of the shroud was not the original - it was a patch.  and - after getting the shroud from the church again for testing - it turns out the rest of the shroud is, in fact, much older.

and, how do you explain the positive and negative - through several layers of fabric?  it was seared by intense heat to make an EXACT image of the face in reverse.  nobody could do that then.

[thalbergmad]

they mention with recent scientific evidence that the 'holland cloth' - was something sewn into the shroud and dated instead of the shroud itself.  the shroud was in a fire (somewhere in france) and a nun sewed a patch on and it had dye and mordent that DOESN't SHOW ANYWHERE ELSE. 

so, they took another sample recently - from the older continuous shroud.  it was proven to be much older than the sample in 1988.  it didn't even have anything to do with the C-14 dating.

ps the sugar indicates flesh and body fluids and different stress chemicals that the body releases.  the browning, is what i understand is the blood.  also, the x-ray of dark areas that were over the exact wounds that Christ had.  they didn't have the ultra-violet techniques previously to discover what was unseen before.

Even if the cloth is original, it does not prove that the image is.

One of the great art forgers of the 20th century used 17th century canvases. It is not difficult.

You do not know of the exact wounds of Christ, again you are relying on your unreliable little book of stories. If i wanted to create a forgery of the Shroud, i would make sure the wounds were as descirbed as in the Bible, wouldn't you?.

FRAUD

[thalbergmad]

it could not have been made during those times - because the 'wash' of the cloth was from the first century.

you are saying that the image was added later - but how would it date to the same time?  it is intricately a PART of the fabric.  but, you are welcome to your beliefs as i know that i am stubborn too, until proven without a doubt, wrong.

you all are FOR science- now you don't believe labs.  this is a RECENT finding.  that it was inaccurately dated before because a piece of the shroud was not the original - it was a patch.  and - after getting the shroud from the church again for testing - it turns out the rest of the shroud is, in fact, much older.

Is not a painting part of a canvas?. That point is ridiculous.

I am for science, but not just one persons science. I have read several books on the subject and whilst i am not an expert, there is just too much wrong with it to be what you think it is. Please do a bit more reading.

Just coz it is recent does NOT MEAN IT IS CORRECT.

You cannot date the IMAGE.

Again, you will try to bore me to death with incessant posts and try to claim victory which is your usual method. You believe what you want to believe and i will believe what i want to believe.

It is a FRAUD.

[thalbergmad]

and, how do you explain the positive and negative - through several layers of fabric?  it was seared by intense heat to make an EXACT image of the face in reverse.  nobody could do that then.

True, nobody could do that in the 1st Century which is why it is a FRAUD. However, it would be unwise to underestimate the abilities of 14th Century alchemists and scientists such as Da Vinci. And that is when it was made.

Seared by intense heat - where did you get that bollox from.

FRAUD

[pianistimo]

in hiroshima, victims had images of their faces seared onto glass.  radiation CAN do it.  or, if not radiation - something happened when Christ was ressurrected.

[cmg]

Thal's arguments are unassailable.  Give it up, pianistimo.  We respect your faith but not your efforts to scientifically prove what can't be proven scientifically, i.e. the mystique surrounding Jesus Christ.  The shroud is an outrageous and cynical fraud and a common one for its time, given the Roman Church's need to extract devotion (i.e. money) from its adherents.  And the Roman Church WAS Christianity for centuries.  Remember Martin Luther?  The Church even enraged him, a Believer if there ever was one.  The Bible is the Wikipedia of its time . . .no, that's unfair to Wikipedia since it does get some editing for inaccuracies and political propaganda now and then.

Look, get yourself a taco shell and put it in your backyard.  Pray for an image to be imprinted upon it.  Let's see what happens!

[thalbergmad]

in hiroshima, victims had images of their faces seared onto glass.  radiation CAN do it.  or, if not radiation - something happened when Christ was ressurrected.

Please do not try to prove that a 13th century bathroom rug with a photo on it proves the resurrection.

Yeh, radiation can do it, but i don't think the Mount of Olives nuclear power station opened until AD50.

Awaits your next batch of crap.

[pianistimo]

according to https://dejnarde.ms11.net//golgotha.htm

or, if you prefer - the 'isle of the dead'
https://dejnarde.ms11.net//colony_in_penal.htm

this was the focus of liszt.  and rach.  and afew others.  more interesting to them, i guess!  temporarily.

the shroud does have a history.  i don't really know if it is true or false - but i am excited to know that it HAS been dated to the time of Christ. 

[asyncopated]

No wonder i got the face wrong.  it was the wrong celestial body

This was what I meant. Face on MARS

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Face_on_Mars

[mad_max2024]

No wonder i got the face wrong.  it was the wrong celestial body

This was what I meant. Face on MARS

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Face_on_Mars

That clearly proves Jesus Christ ressurected a second time on Mars

[cmg]

the shroud does have a history.  i don't really know if it is true or false - but i am excited to know that it HAS been dated to the time of Christ. 

Hell, I have socks that date from the time of Christ, but that doesn't make me a Believer.

[pianistimo]

ok.  i go to bed laughing - but it's a serious thing in the morning.  and, i don't doubt even right now.  it's just that i can't convince you and my daughter wants to 'play tag.' 

wool socks, i'm presuming. 

[mad_max2024]

pianistimo
PS Silver Member
Piano Forum God

Is pianistimo god?

[asyncopated]

Hell, I have socks that date from the time of Christ, but that doesn't make me a Believer.

I bet your carbon dating techniques are wrong.  In fact I think they are much older -- a couple of million years old maybe?  They evolved into socks, but were an under water creation before.

[thalbergmad]

according to https://dejnarde.ms11.net//golgotha.htm

or, if you prefer - the 'isle of the dead'
https://dejnarde.ms11.net//colony_in_penal.htm

this was the focus of liszt.  and rach.  and afew others.  more interesting to them, i guess!  temporarily.

the shroud does have a history.  i don't really know if it is true or false - but i am excited to know that it HAS been dated to the time of Christ. 

The shroud does have a history, but only a 650 year one and not a 2,000 year.

Of course you accept the dating that shows it is 2,000 years and not the datings that shows it was not. The cloth might indeed be very old, but not the image.

All of a sudden, you don't know if it is true or false.

[thalbergmad]

ok.  i go to bed laughing - but it's a serious thing in the morning.  and, i don't doubt even right now.  it's just that i can't convince you and my daughter wants to 'play tag.' 

wool socks, i'm presuming. 

Of course you don't doubt, that is the blindness of your faith.

You cannot convince me as you have nothing.

Why don't you spend more time with your daughter and less time posting rubbish on here?.

I too must go to bed, it has been tough battling your ramblings tonight.

[ahinton]

Personally, I think the shroud is really the old Tunic of Tullahoma (Tennessee) that was found wrapped around a taco shell imprinted (miraculously) with the likeness of Pianistimo, and revered in all cultures that value pearly scales and crisp octaves. 

But, once again, this is only conjecture.

I'm glad that you wisely chose to add that caveat, since you have not produced any evidence based upon having heard Pianistimo play. Have you heard her play, by chance? I wonder if she's really great in the ineffable (well, it is in F) Chopin, Chapter 10, Verse 8 in the two-handed Godowsky translation, for example?...

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

Awaits your next batch of crap.

Of couse I realise now that you didn't go to that charm school after all; you went to YOONIE and got yourself a bachelor's degree...

Best,

Alistair

[pianistimo]

there's two things that i read that would explain some problems with dating.  one is that carbon 14 dating is greatly affected if something has been through a fire (which the shroud was - back in france).  they say, from fire - an object takes on a high degree of carbon.  therefore making the dating inaccurate.

now, also - a portion (patch) was sewed on after the mishap and accidentally dated in 1988 - so it was not part of the older shroud itself.  this has been confessed to by the person who handled the dating in 1988.  so the recent dating is more 'uptodate' and hard to deny is wrong.  also, they used ultra-violet to find some of the information that would be held - and it proved the thing consistent within all one time.  the blood, the flow of the blood, even helped to figure (by gravity) the position Christ was likely in when he died. 

also, the positive and negative imagery implies that it was not a 'trick' forgery by leonardo da vinci - or anyone else.  the techniques were not 'man-made.'  now, i cannot know for a fact the shroud is or isn't a fake - but i'm just reading here that it was tested by scientific labs that are considered quite reputable and would be used by historical analysts. 

cute, ahinton, about the 'yoonieversity.'

i have decided to start a thread next year soley about bicycling.  nothing else.  no bible verses.  and, possibly one about godowsky transcriptions - as i think they are wonderful - but yes, need lots of practice to play in a pearly way.  i can play mozart, schubert, and haydn sonatas quite pearly.  does that count.  once i just sightread about three in a row and someone started clapping and saying bravo out in the hallway (joined in by a choral conductor) so i know it wasn't for nothing.  of course, sightreading mozart isn't THAT hard.  but, i like to warm up on it and i like to listen to the notes and the sounds.  you can hear what is happening to the note and to the sound together.  and, of course, if you are playing evenly.   

[thalbergmad]

Right let me just recap to put this rubbish to bed finally and hopefully this deluded woman will shut up for a while.

1. There is no history of the Shroud before 1350.
2. The shroud is not the only one. Look up Mandylion.
3. The shroud was made at a time when the compassionate God and compassionate Jesus had just wiped out 75 million people with the Black Death. Religious imagery was one way of keeping people deluded.
4. The shroud has been duplicated.
5. The front of the shroud is a composite image.
6. The hair hangs down depsite the body supposedly being prone.
7. The hairline shows signs of being retouched by a brush.
8. The expression is strange for someone who was supposedly tortured to death.
9. The head does not belong to the body, it has been severed. This was not mentioned in the silly book of stories.
10. No sign of any ears.
11. Hairline is very low.
12. Blood still flowing which is strange for a corpse.
13. Hands a fingers impossibly large.
14. Image on front 6ft 8 and image on the back 6ft 10. Not caused by rolling and other such pianistimo rubbish.
15. Was jesus really taller then Goliath?. Surely that would have been mentioned in the silly little book of stories.
16. The image on the Shroud was never mentioned in the silly little book of stories.

Finally, when everyone goes to bed tonight, i want them to assume the position of the image on the shroud and then try to cover their private parts with their elbows bent.

This is rather difficult, the image is totally out of proportion. Even if this position was real, unless your hands were tied together they would fall by your sides. There is no evidence of any object on the image in order to achieve this.

Now the only people that could assume a position like this would be the scientists stretched on the rack by moronic tambourine bangers of medieval Europe.

Usually Pianistimo would start to invoke the Bible as her proof, but cannot on this occasion as the image on the Shroud is not included in the silly book of stories. Therefore, her grasp on reality is even more fragile than with some or her previous propositions. She is like a rock climber hanging on with just one finger.

I am clearly wasting my time on this subject as i was with the piece of fossilized cows turd on a mountain in Turkey that pianistimo thought was Noahs Ark.

I have said all I have to say on this subject and retire completely convinced that it is a Fraud. I have come to this decision after many books and years of reading.

I awating the next pathetic proposition from Pianistimo.

The Holy Handgrenade of Antioch perhaps.

[ahinton]

Right let me just recap to put this rubbish to bed finally and hopefully this deluded woman will shut up for a while.

1. There is no history of the Shroud before 1350.
2. The shroud is not the only one. Look up Mandylion.
3. The shroud was made at a time when the compassionate God and compassionate Jesus had just wiped out 75 million people with the Black Death. Religious imagery was one way of keeping people deluded.
4. The shroud has been duplicated.
5. The front of the shroud is a composite image.
6. The hair hangs down depsite the body supposedly being prone.
7. The hairline shows signs of being retouched by a brush.
8. The expression is strange for someone who was supposedly tortured to death.
9. The head does not belong to the body, it has been severed. This was not mentioned in the silly book of stories.
10. No sign of any ears.
11. Hairline is very low.
12. Blood still flowing which is strange for a corpse.
13. Hands a fingers impossibly large.
14. Image on front 6ft 8 and image on the back 6ft 10. Not caused by rolling and other such pianistimo rubbish.
15. Was jesus really taller then Goliath?. Surely that would have been mentioned in the silly little book of stories.
16. The image on the Shroud was never mentioned in the silly little book of stories.

Finally, when everyone goes to bed tonight, i want them to assume the position of the image on the shroud and then try to cover their private parts with their elbows bent.

This is rather difficult, the image is totally out of proportion. Even if this position was real, unless your hands were tied together they would fall by your sides. There is no evidence of any object on the image in order to achieve this.

Now the only people that could assume a position like this would be the scientists stretched on the rack by moronic tambourine bangers of medieval Europe.

Usually Pianistimo would start to invoke the Bible as her proof, but cannot on this occasion as the image on the Shroud is not included in the silly book of stories. Therefore, her grasp on reality is even more fragile than with some or her previous propositions. She is like a rock climber hanging on with just one finger.

I am clearly wasting my time on this subject as i was with the piece of fossilized cows turd on a mountain in Turkey that pianistimo thought was Noahs Ark.

I have said all I have to say on this subject and retire completely convinced that it is a Fraud. I have come to this decision after many books and years of reading.

I awating the next pathetic proposition from Pianistimo.

The Holy Handgrenade of Antioch perhaps.

Your LITTLE YOONIE seems to have departed this life, only to be replaced most unceremoniously (or so it seems) by a quartet of statements from the Serious Fraud Office; might you enlighten us all with some kind of explanation for this?

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

...and STILL no one has cared to en"light"en me as to the location of the light switch...

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

Then did he raise on high the Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch, saying, "Bless this, O Lord, that with it thou mayst blow thine enemies to tiny bits, in thy mercy." And the people did rejoice and did feast upon the lambs and toads and tree-sloths and fruit-bats and orangutans and breakfast cereals ... Now did the Lord say, "First thou pullest the Holy Pin. Then thou must count to three. Three shall be the number of the counting and the number of the counting shall be three. Four shalt thou not count, neither shalt thou count two, excepting that thou then proceedeth to three. Five is right out. Once the number three, being the number of the counting, be reached, then lobbest thou the Holy Hand Grenade in the direction of thine foe, who, being naughty in my sight, shall snuff it."

More sense than Pianistimo has ever come out with.

Thal

[ahinton]

"First thou pullest the Holy Pin. Then thou must count to three. Three shall be the number of the counting and the number of the counting shall be three."

PIN numbers have not three but FOUR digits, Thal - but for this faux pas I would have CREDITed you with being quite a CARD...

Like the rest, though...

Best,

Alistair

[ronde_des_sylphes]

Presumably the Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch is only functional for true believers?

[ahinton]

Presumably the Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch is only functional for true believers?

Since Thal isn't one such, I'm not sure that he's the best person to answer that question (and nor am I, for that matter)...

Soirées dans Grenade require Hands, though, methinks...

Best,

Aistair

[pianistimo]

this is just so typical of thal.  his only resort to disagreement is violence.  why does it bother him so much? i mean, his destiny is not tied up in a shroud is it?  i don't think anyone's is (because since Christ is died and ressurrected - the old cloth is nothing except proof there's no body in it).  so why does he care so much?  me thinks that he is as confounded by historical things as i am - and considers that if it WERE true - then he'd be a might short a head. 

where's the body, thal?  (not yoonie's - we'll get to that later).

[cmg]

i mean, his destiny is not tied up in a shroud is it? 

Actually, dear lady, it IS -- as it is for all of us!

(I think you're making me lose my mind . . . and I would certainly know.)

[thalbergmad]

this is just so typical of thal.  his only resort to disagreement is violence.  why does it bother him so much? i mean, his destiny is not tied up in a shroud is it?  i don't think anyone's is (because since Christ is died and ressurrected - the old cloth is nothing except proof there's no body in it).  so why does he care so much?  me thinks that he is as confounded by historical things as i am - and considers that if it WERE true - then he'd be a might short a head. 

I cannot see how i have resorted to violence, that is pretty difficult on a forum and you thankfully are 4000 miles away from me.

The Church has often resorted to violence when its views have been challenged, but they cannot do this any more. Therefore, we now have an excellent opportunity to challenge what is written in the silly book without being burned to death or persecuted.

I have spent hundreds of hours reading about religious artefacts, so the subject is dear to me. That is why i get angry and frustrated when you jump back and fowards from wikipedia and latch onto anything that supports your views. You seem to be on a mission to prove that the Bible is correct via archeology and artefacts, but you are on a hiding to nothing. There is evidence of places and people, but not what happened and that is where faith comes in.

Your Bible is not the only religious work that has ever been written and much of it is not even unique. Your strength of faith is commendable, but your efforts to prove the Bible have been ill advised, unfounded and at times laughable.

You are obviously a lovely person and i hope you continue preaching the word and the love of God. I can only suggest that you read a little more widely on other "matters" and try to adopt a different posting style.

Your Bible is obviously a great comfort to you and is has been to me at times, but it will not stand up for you in a scientific debate.

Thal

[cmg]

And, yea, those residing in the land of Sylvan Pens, took to their backyards (as yet not fully explored) to dance and frolic about the Tube Top of Toulouse -- a relic only hinted at in the book of Ruminations. Yet, the faithful extrapolated and expounded and, verily, Believed!

"Proof!"  they exclaimed.  "Proof!" they expostulated.  "Proof" they fulminated.

(And Thal, a man despised and acquainted with Greeks -- for he was born Athenian -- cowered and cringed.  Cast out!)

Oh, Pole Dancers tramping around the Tube Top of Toulouse, have mercy.  Have mercy!!  

[thalbergmad]

Anyone read the "God Delusion" by Dawkins.

I saw it on sale today and almost bought it.

Thal

[pianistimo]

do you know why it is on sale?  i shall say no more.  especially about that tube top of toulouise. 

archaology IS a science, thal.  you are trying to prove science is only bookwork.  that's why i'm saying people would do well to get their noses out of books and go look at a few places that hold not just dinosaur bones - but a lot of other stuff.  it all goes together.  you can't compartmentalize it.  have you ever SEEN the grand canyon?  i have.  it's awesome and wasn't made by a little trickle of a stream or river -way below.  it was made with a huge amount of WATER/ICE that broke a dam.

they've found more of jericho in the holy land.  does anybody talk about this?  no. because noone WANTS to believe the bible.

did you know that even the fact you have a name - means there's a God.  the animals don't know their names and they don't remember ours or say them.  why? because they can't talk.  every evolutionist says 'we came from animals.'  well, why the long LONG linguistic history.  even if we started at da da - we have the ability because we DON't HAVE a HYOID bone under our tongue.  (probably keeping us from biting it - if we tried jumping around in the trees).

go ahead.  make my day.  i don't care if you blow up everything in your house.  you're still human (homosapien) not hominoid , even if you think you used to be neanderthal.  there's no proof.

[thalbergmad]

do you know why it is on sale?  i shall say no more.  especially about that tube top of toulouise. 

archaology IS a science, thal.  you are trying to prove science is only bookwork.  that's why i'm saying people would do well to get their noses out of books.

It was already number 2 in the sales chart, but the shop had taken £4 off as it had with most of its other books. Therefore if you are insuating that it was not selling, you are completely wrong.

Yes, Archeology IS a science. Have i said it is not?

All science ends up in a books or nobody would get to hear about it would they.

Have you changed medication, you are making less sense than ever now.

You could do well to get your nose out of your silly book and read "The God Delusion" and "The Gospel of Judas".

Now, please switch off your computer. You will be late for your appiontment with your shrink.

Goodnight.

Thal

[cmg]

Anyone read the "God Delusion" by Dawkins.

I saw it on sale today and almost bought it.

Thal

Yes, Thal, I have read it.  Dawkins can be strident, but he's a brilliant debater and I can't find any holes in his argument.  He's a fearless scientist and insists that logic prevail.  But logic seems to outrage people.  Especially creationists who represent everything illogical to men like Dawkins.

(BTW, sorry for my silly post that was adjacent to your serious one.  It was no comment on your earlier post, believe me.)

[thalbergmad]

I enjoy your posts old chap.

Thanks

Thal

[thalbergmad]

do you know why it is on sale?  i shall say no more.  especially about that tube top of toulouise. 

archaology IS a science, thal.  you are trying to prove science is only bookwork.  that's why i'm saying people would do well to get their noses out of books and go look at a few places that hold not just dinosaur bones - but a lot of other stuff.  it all goes together.  you can't compartmentalize it.  have you ever SEEN the grand canyon?  i have.  it's awesome and wasn't made by a little trickle of a stream or river -way below.  it was made with a huge amount of WATER/ICE that broke a dam.

they've found more of jericho in the holy land.  does anybody talk about this?  no. because noone WANTS to believe the bible.

did you know that even the fact you have a name - means there's a God.  the animals don't know their names and they don't remember ours or say them.  why? because they can't talk.  every evolutionist says 'we came from animals.'  well, why the long LONG linguistic history.  even if we started at da da - we have the ability because we DON't HAVE a HYOID bone under our tongue.  (probably keeping us from biting it - if we tried jumping around in the trees).

go ahead.  make my day.  i don't care if you blow up everything in your house.  you're still human (homosapien) not hominoid , even if you think you used to be neanderthal.  there's no proof.

Yet again you go back and add on to posts. That is irritating.

I really don't know what to say about what you have just written as you are just making an idiot out of yourself in some kind of senseless rant.

Grand Canyon, Neanderthals, Jericho, blowing up my house?.

You have obviously forgotten to take your pills. Please get your husband to call the doctor now, this could be an emergency.

Take a few days off from Pianostreets. You might have to if there is no computer in the mental ward.

Honestly, get some help.

Best

Thal

[pianistimo]

from what i hear - mr dawkins is in a world of his own.   it is THEORY.  all of it.  conjecture.  glad to hear you're ALL FOR REASON.  i, for one, cannot stand his lectures because it is pseudoscience.  let me go find an example - while you take your meds.  i don't have any to take.  you'll have to give me what's left over of yours.

the first mistake he makes:  'you're too intelligent and full of reason to need religion.'  to me, this is the biggest mistake he makes - because he is equating himself with God.  He is setting up himself as the 'source' of all knowledge because he knows more about science than most people.  thereby adding a few imaginary things and making it sound like it's science - when it is not.  it is theory.  he has THEORIES.

now, i'm not saying having theories is bad.  i'm saying - nixing God over a few theories is bad reason.

here's an older lecture:
www.thehumanist.org/humanist/articles/dawkins.html
let's talk.  first of all.  what does 'the humanist association' do?  what kind of association is this?  we're all humans.  are they more humane?  prove it!  do they show graciousness and not start wars?  are they being fair to those who have a religion.  proving them 'inhumane?' by illogical reasons of saying that wars are a result of religion.  wars are a result of greed.  not always started by religious people either.  unless we're talking middle east.  tell me how WWI and WWII started?  the balkans started WWI - right?  we have ethnicities that want land.  LAND.  not religion.  noone really cares THAT much to kill over religion (since the inquisition) unless it is specific ethnicities (like in iraq) that fight each other.  it leads to a genocide.  why?  because they want to take the other's land.

WWII:  hitler and the nazi's staged a polish attack on a minor german radio station in order to justify a german invasion of poland.  hitler declared war on september 1st, 1939 stating one of his reasons for the invasion was 'the attack by regular polish troops on the gleiwitz transmitter.'

i don't know if he ever HAD any religious reasons for starting the war.  i think he was into the occult.