Should I be doubting my teacher? (And myself!?)

[elisianna]

Ok.  So I started playing piano at 16.  I WANTED to play.  I advanced through the beginner books quickly, eager to learn and always seeking help from my sisters who had been taking piano for 6 months by the time I started. (they are 7 years younger.)  I skipped beginner book two.  I went quickly through 3, then moved on to four.  Where I played about 5 pieces.  I was probably at MAYBE a grade one level.

My teacher said "If you practice for 2 hours a day I will put you into grade 8" (Royal Conservatory.)  I agreed and I worked by butt off.  I bought an electric keyboard for my room so that I wouldn't drive my family nuts.

I'm a slacker when it comes to theory and technique, so both of these have obviously stayed below the level they should be.  Recently I finished my grade 8 exam with a not incredibly good mark, mostly due to my technique and my ear training.  (and I made silly mistakes on the pieces that I never made at home or in lessons.)  I left that feeling like an utter and complete failure. (I got honours still, but honours isn't really that good.)

Fall came and I was doing grade 9, but my teacher decided to also let me play grade 10.  At this point in time, three months later, we've almost scrapped 9 and now play only 10 and even ARCT. (grade 10 like grade 8 for a lot of the people here.)

I practice for five hours a day.  I have to learn one knew piece every week, that is, I have to be able to play through the whole thing up to tempo, it just has to sound good.  As the weeks go on, I'm busy perfecting all the pieces from previous weeks, as well as learning a new one. (actually, this week and last I had to learn 2 new pieces.)
So right now I am playing
Rachmaninoff Melodie op.3 (I've had this one for awhile, I'm just memorizing it.)
Shostakovich's 3 fantastic dances
Chopin Nocturne in F # major
Brahms Intermezzo in A minor Op. 118
Messaien - Plainte Calme

Ok.  So I've been playing for 3 years and 3 months now.  I realize it's not a massive accomplishment and a lot of people do that, but I can't help but feel that I can't.  I do what I'm supposed to every week, every week my pieces come back in very reasonable shape, but I see other girls who have been playing for 9 or 10 or more years playing grade 10 and arct music and they just seem to be so GOOD.  To me, all my playing and knowledge seems incredibly shallow.  (I don't know how really to explain it...)  I mean, I play with plenty of emotion and colour (that is the compliment I mostly get from people.)  But they have this amazing technique and they can play so fast and so brilliantly... and then there is me.

I feel like to play pieces at the same level as them, my technique should be up to par, as well as all my knowledge of theory etc...  I mean, do I sound pretty laughable when I play?  Cause I feel like I do.  I feel like a little kid trying to sing Celine Dion, like everyone around me thinks I've got high hopes but nothing to back them up.

Would it be sane of me to doubt my teacher?  Maybe he's just ignoring my playing or something.  I know he's not an idiot (he's literally a genius).  He has said he wants me to be a pro.  He's leaving the city next year and wants to leave jobs to me, which means I have to advance extremely quickly this year in sight reading (I'd be taking over as an accompanist for a choir).  One time I said "See!! I told you I can't handle this!" and he gave me the most sincerely disappointed and sad look he's ever had on his face.  Every week before my lesson I bawl my eyes out because I cannot get my head around why he thinks I can do this.

Edit* Oh yeah, and starting in the new year he wants me and his only two other advanced students to start having informal concerts every single weekend.

[loops]

Every week before my lesson I bawl my eyes out because I cannot get my head around why he thinks I can do this.

Doesn't sound too good to me. You need a long heart to heart with your teacher, and tell him/her this.

Your teacher is pushing you probably because so far you are delivering. So he/she feels maybe: they are trying to keep up with you/help you realise your potential/....

you won't find out unless you ask. But IMO opinion his/her expectations need to seriously moderated.

A fine wine takes a time to mature. It is the same with everything, which is
why pushing/fast-tracking never really works, why it takes 3/4 years to get a college degree, etc etc etc.

Ideas to consider: Take a holiday, stop crying, and start again on a more rational basis of expectations of
weekly progress. In particular, include some pure enjoyment activities.

[elisianna]

Thanks for the reply

Well he's said a lot that he thinks I'm brilliant.  But about a month ago, when the really crazy practicing started he said "I think you're brilliant, but you've got some untapped talent.  You aren't working hard enough."

The next week all of that started.

Honestly I love playing to death.  I can't imagine doing much else with my time really, I'm a huge loner just cause I stay at home and practice piano.  I even teach piano while I'm not practicing.  When someone asks "Do you have a boyfriend?"  I just say "No.  I don't have time for that."  When I'm out, all I can think about is going home to play.  Not only because I want to deliver for my lesson but because I just LOVE it.

I'm just pretty torn.  I don't know if I SHOULD love it so much, if I should give it a rest because I'm not mature enough.  I don't know. =P

I'm going to Oklahoma in a week over the holidays and I won't be practicing much then, and he said he's not going to give me very much over the break, maybe it'll just be a much needed break to get my sanity back.

[debussy symbolism]

Greetings.

Sounds to me that you are quite stressed out. Heh, you should see me during my stress hours. As was mentioned previously, you need to talk to your teacher and tell him that you need to cool down. On occassions I spend more than 6 hours a day practicing and that takes alot of energy, as I basically break up pieces into sections and work on them via a million exercises. It is alot easier to just play them, but actually focusing on the technique is very tiring. During such days I never go outside, I remain infront of the piano, and I generally don't look to good physically. There have been times when stress leaves a rather evident impression on me and I got to tell you I don't necessarily appear sane, so I somewhat understand what you are experiencing.

I am working on a big program too right now. I am currently working on Rachmaninoff Moment musicale 4(e minor), 4 Moszkowski etudes (3 completed), Beethoven's Rondo a Cappriccio, A Tchaikovsky piece(from "the Seasons), several Bach's pieces, and a whole lot of technical material including Czerny etudes. I just completed Schubert's Impromptu 4. What I learned is pacing. Instead of focusing on the entire piece, I focus only on a page or a particular section. I break it up into exercises and then put it together, slowly at first, then picking up tempo. Trying to focus on a whole piece is very tiring, and concentration level will lower. That is why pace yourself, set goals, don't try to get the whole piece in a whole practice session, and very important, talk to your teacher.

[tiasjoy]

Here's my impression - it's probably completely wrong, and it may even be insulting towards your teacher (don't mean to be) and I actually HOPE it's not true. 

It sounds as though your teacher is actually more driven than you.  No doubt he can see your potential, can see your ability (and yes I think you're probably putting yourself down a little too much) and personally WISHES that you would be as driven as he is.  It sounds as though he's trying to make you feel something you don't feel just yet.  If he backed off a little you may actually begin to feel as driven as he'd like you to be, but instead you're feeling stifled, suffocated - under pressure.  Crying and bawling are too different things.  Bawling denotes immense stress and not coping with things.  It' not healthy for us.

Is it possible your teacher is pushing you so hard to live up to HIS standards? It's like he see that you could be as good as he wants you to be ... if only ....

If you've written a post: should I be doubting my teacher? you already are, and sounds like you're feeling guilty about it.  It's okay to have negative feelings.  They help you work out what you need in your life.   And if you want to be happy and satisfied with what you love, it does sound like you need to address this issue.

Another thing to ponder:  what's the rush?  Is it really for you, or is it for him?  Have you told your teacher: I want to be a concert pianist before I'm 21?

I hope you can find a way to talk to him about this.  Perhaps you're just going through a stressful phase and things will be more manageable for you soon (we women do go through many ups and downs) .. or perhaps it will only get worse if you don't address it.

My simple (and somewhat ignorant) response is: yes, you should be doubting your teacher: not his ability or the fact he sees the potential in you (and you HAVE done a remarkable thing, give yourself credit) but his insistence on such rapid progress.  But no, you shouldn't be doubting yourself.  I think you should listen to what your self is trying to tell you.   You need some room to breath ... and then I suspect, your motivation will come from within, and not from external pressure.

All the very best.
Tia

[soulmach]

This is my first post.  I am an amateur pianist.  I have been playing for a year, and I have a couple LvB's  in my repertoire; however, I felt like giving my two cents on your question.  My answer is a definite YES to your question.  Should you doubt your piano teacher?  Absolutely.   

Remember to think about how much time and money you invest into learning the piano?  Years, and thousands of $$$.   Many practice techniques taught by private piano teachers are discouraged by university specialists.  If your instructor is teaching you even one inefficient method for practicing, it can add months (sometimes years) to achieving the brilliant musical pieces you now only dream of playing.  I'm not trying to scare you, but through my observations, some have had to completely relearn their repertoire after learning better techniques for playing (the young Franz Liszt took about a year off from concert playing to focus on better technique).

A simple metaphor would be to compare your piano teacher to your primary doctor.  If your doctor says, "you only have one year to live," you would more than likely get a reliable second opinion to confirm the illness.  Likewise, if your doc says, "see you in a year, you're in perfect health" but you had been feeling under-the-weather, you would likely feel drawn to find a reliable second opinion.  You would get the second opinion because your health and well-being are in question.  Many doctors make mistakes and mis-diagnoses.  Many doctors (although a minority) are simply too lazy to research your chart deeply enough to offer proper treatment, that is a fact.  Piano teachers are exactly the same!  Many piano instructors are exceptional, and many are not.  A teacher can only teach you what they know.

So many teachers teach so many different methods.  You can not afford to waste time and money on a teacher who gets defensive when their teaching methods are questioned.  A good teacher will welcome students to question their methods, because it is only when these unanswered questions are finally answered that we can move on and become exceptional.   If the instructor is kind, and gently explains their reasons for their teaching methods, then they are good teachers, but they still could be wrong.  They are human.  In this case, you should not judge the instructor, but the method which the instructor teaches.

It's difficult to confront a piano instructor, but a good instructor will not become defensive, but instead will explain why they have chosen certain methods.  A very good instructor will look at their own technique, and figure out why and how they left you feeling vulnerable, so they will not make the same mistake again with another student. IF a piano instructor gets defensive?  You may want to take your money somewhere else!  If instructors do not become defensive when confronted, and they proceed to offer a legitimate reason for their questioned instructions, then as i said above, question only the method in which they teach.

I'm not looking for controversy. These are just my two cents.  People can accept my advice or leave it.  BEST WISHES in your journey!

Jeremy

Edit:  I almost forgot to address your question about self-doubt.  Is it okay to doubt yourself?  I don't think so; however, I will not try to advise you on breaking your problem of self-doubt.  I cannot advise you on self-doubt, because I struggle with self doubt myself!!  lol   I think it is amazing how the simple process of learning the piano can lead to more deeper lessons in life, or is this just me?  Learning such a complex instrument, and becoming an exceptional player, forces us to look deep within our souls for ability to defeat obstacles in our path. The fact that you are asking the forum for advice shows that you are a pro-active individual, and I BELIEVE you'll get through this.    I only have this one advisement.   Focus mostly on being present, in the now, with your music, instead of focusing on the acceptance of others.   Enjoy making music.

[overscore]

I don't think he should be in such a hurry. Clearly you're in a muddle because he's pushing you too fast and you have doubts about your playing. If he can't see that then you should explain it to him carefully.

When you're really accomplished at something, it's easy to look at the less experienced and completely fail to recall the anxiety, self-doubt and stress that plagued you when you were in their shoes. Parents do this all the time with their kids, telling their offspring to 'simply buckle down' or 'just be sensible' when facing life's problems. They've forgotten what it's like to be young.

If he really is a genius, then his faith in you is probably not misplaced, but the trouble is you can't see yourself through his eyes. I doubt any amount of explanation on his part would allow you to either. You just have to get him to ease off a bit so that you can 'find' yourself musically.

[counterpoint]

Yes, a teacher who says things like

"If you practice for 2 hours a day I will put you into grade 8" (Royal Conservatory.)

should be doubted.

It's not the teacher, who "puts" the student anywhere, but the student himself, who will reach a special goal (or he doesn't reach it - who knows...)

[Mozartian]

You need to be sure the love, the drive, the devotion, the desire, is coming from you. Teachers can be unbelievably influential in a person's life- but take away that influence, and you begin to get back to yourself and what *you* want, and things can change.

I've gone most of my highschool years without lessons. Though this has been detrimental to my technique and knowledge of theory, it does have its benefits. I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that the reason I'm doing music, going to try to make a career out of it, is that I, myself, love it. That I have chosen it for myself, and noone has chosen it for me. I have no doubts of this, and I have a considerable amount of peace because of it.

To thine own self be true. Just think about that.

As far as musical development goes, nothing helps more to listen (truly listen! not just hear) lots of music- check out CDs at your library and listen! Piano, chamber, orchestral- baroque, classical, romantic, contemporary... its all good.

Also, if you're a true artist, you're ALWAYS going to be your own severest critic!

Hope that helps, somewhat.

[debussy symbolism]

You need to be sure the love, the drive, the devotion, the desire, is coming from you. Teachers can be unbelievably influential in a person's life- but take away that influence, and you begin to get back to yourself and what *you* want, and things can change.

I've gone most of my highschool years without lessons. Though this has been detrimental to my technique and knowledge of theory, it does have its benefits. I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that the reason I'm doing music, going to try to make a career out of it, is that I, myself, love it. That I have chosen it for myself, and noone has chosen it for me. I have no doubts of this, and I have a considerable amount of peace because of it.

I think that a teacher having a watchful eye on you is best in any case, as no matter what, stress, even that in the smallest proportions, is an impetus for advancement, and what better way to have that hint of a stress than having a teacher? A teacher will ensure you not slackin off and will ensure good progress.

[debussy symbolism]

To thine own self be true. Just think about that.

Are you going to quote that?

[Mozartian]

I think that a teacher having a watchful eye on you is best in any case, as no matter what, stress, even that in the smallest proportions, is an impetus for advancement, and what better way to have that hint of a stress than having a teacher? A teacher will ensure you not slackin off and will ensure good progress.

I have a teacher now, she's wonderful for me- both as helping me develop as an artist and a pianist, and for me just having that deadline- that 'omg I have a lesson on X, there's no way I'm going to go in and play this suckily' aspect. But because I have worked on my own so much, and because I set up lessons for myself, I know that going into music is MY idea, not hers (or any of my other teachers, although they all have considered me quite talented and encouraged me to do music (except one who said my hands were too small but SCREW THAT)).

[x_mozart]

You and I are kinda  the same. =).
I started about 2 years ago, and i'm in Gr.10 piano right now.
i just reccently switched teachers and my techniques improved soo much in these 3 months.
I'm not really sure about your teacher, but my former piano teacher was somewhat a fraud.
which meant he played brilliantly and is an awesome pianist, but however, he can't really teach. Even though i got to Gr.9 in 2 years, my former piano teacher never praised me or anything. To tell you the truth, looking back in those 2 years, i felt like i haven't developed anything but finger strength from Hannon.
I couldn't play scales with accuracy and speed. I couldn't do legato. I played piano with only my fingers, and not with mind.
My new piano teacher taught me so much in these 3 months.
My techniques have improved a lot. Instead of just developing finger strength from Hannon, my teacher also taught me the use of arms and the musicality and shaping of a piece.
Teachers definitely matter when it comes to piano. I have personally witnessed the change. However, it's not doubting your teacher but knowing your teacher. If you think that you have improved greatly over these 3 years not just in  terms of repetoire but everything else, then you have yourself a great teacher. maybe you should have a long heart to heart talk wtih your teacher. and maybe getting to know your friends' teachers as well. 
the difference between a good and bad teacher is great. Good teachers don't have to be brilliant pianists, even though they usually are. They just need to have good methods and know the students well.

[nocturnelover]

I started piano lessons last year, I self taught myself Moonlight Sonata and Fur Elise but I still thought that my teacher was giving me pieces that were to advanced for me Chopin's etude op.10 no.3 and Mozarts Turkish March. I couldn't read the music, I could but it would take me half a life time to learn the piece. Then I felt like we were just working on pieces because I had an Alfreds theory book but she never refered to it. I told her from my first lesson that I wanted to be a Classical pianist and get graded but I don't know whether she understands that because all she really gives me is (eventually scales) and pieces. She thinks that if I work that I could go for fifth grade this year but somehow I just don't see how I could do it.
Also I'm a little confused there is a grade 10?? In Australia there is only up to grade 8 and then diplomas? And if you just started how did you go straight to grade 8 is there some kind of equivalent? Because if you really went to like grade 8 I wouldn't be worrying about how good you are. But it is nice to see someone else equally obsessed. When I'm at parties with my friends I usually sit at the piano and play for ages hahaha!!
Also my teacher hadn't shown me any kind of real praise at all and I didn't know how to use pedal until she was away and a replacement showed me. The replacement was great actually she worked me really hard in the lesson and I found it really challenging we worked on scales pedalling and the theory book. Usually with my other teacher we just work on pieces and scales no real direction at all. She also praised me she said that I had great hands and I'd told her of my love for Chopin and she said that I had the hands for it! I was so happy after that lesson that I went home and played for hours afterwards!

[danny elfboy]

Have you ever recorded yourself?
Briefly. I think you should underestimate what you've obtained; you've progressed very quickly compared to other students and this is remarkable
Now maybe your teacher is more objective and can hear your good playing, while you're so full of doubts that you can't. That's why I suggest you to record yourself
When you listen a recording of yourself you gain objectivity in your judgement
That would be a first step to realize whether you just believe to have a weak-technique compared to those at your same levels or whether it is true (in that case you'll need to see what's he problem is: too tension, lack of theory [not understanding music/harmony often makes it hard to play it well] piece not perfected enough bcause you've so many to learn ... and so on)

[ted]

Elisianna, music should be a source of constant and dependable joy. In the five years or so I have been posting on forums I have been regularly dismayed by the very large percentage of posters, such as you who, despite possessing real talent and achieving very highly in the external sense, are very unhappy with their music and sometimes very unhappy with themselves.

I do not know what on earth is going wrong with the way we are teaching and playing music but it is clear that something in general has gone desperately astray.

Much as I would like to, I cannot advise you about the likely cause of your feelings and neither is it right that I should attempt to. However, the underlying equation is very simple. If an activity is making us unhappy and there is no moral duty, rational purpose or imperative to persist with it, then we should consider either stopping it or changing it in some way.

[danny elfboy]

I do not know what on earth is going wrong with the way we are teaching and playing music but it is clear that something in general has gone desperately astray.

Maybe the fact that in so many instance piano playing is taught unmusically and in a dry manner with the same obsolete fake-rigour of the old Army
Take for example the actor studios and compare the lively, in context, unformal and creative way recitation is taught with the way piano playing is taught.

The kind of snobbery a convervatory or music accademy is impregnated with can't be find nowhere else, and this is pretty hard to achieve since many accademies and university conveys the same disgusting attitude and mood

[elisianna]

I was shocked to see this up close to the top again.  Thanks everyone else for the replies.

nocturnelover:  My Grade 10 is basically the same music as your grade 8.  So if I was speaking the grades you go by I would have skipped right into Grade 6 after one year.

danny elfboy:  I actually recorded myself for the first time in a long time a little while ago.  It was Brahms Intermezzo in A Major op. 118.  I was actually kinda shocked at how it sounded.  I mean, it's not really close to being done, because I work on too many things at once... but it actually sounded pretty good.   That could be mostly because I love the piece though, because I could still pinpoint so many little things that were wrong with it.  It did give me a tiny boost in confidence though.

ted:  It's a little confusing.  Because while I'm playing I LOVE playing.  If I'm not playing I'm thinking about playing.  But as soon as I start thinking about how I stack up to others, or how behind I am if I wanted to go to school, or I remind myself that I could never really make it and have a career in music I get so depressed.  Basically I love it if it's part of my own little world XD.