God poll

[ahinton]

I wish i had stuck to my new years resolution, but i did not.

I should have remembered that it is pointless entering into a debate with people that already know the answer.

Therefore i am making a new resolution:

I hereby declare that i will not enter into any form of religious debate with brain dead, blinkered, single celled, happy clappy, bead juggling, sandal wearing, hand waving, candle lighting, tambo banging, god bothering, fundamentalist, Christians.

Signed by

Thalbergmad

But what about those Christians who belong within only one or more, rather than all eleven, of the categories you cite here?

Best,

Alistair

[pianistimo]

agreed, sorry about the ramses part being before.  anyways, tuthmosis III was more my point.  he is supposedly the one that married hapsutshet who was supposedly the daughter of the pharaoh that pulled mosis (egyptian name for house of thothmes or thoth- mesu =moses = son or child) out of the bullrushes.  now, this tuthmosis III supposedly married hapsutshet after the first pharoah died.

something else i find interesting is this article about joseph and when he was dated to be.  the bible records his egyptian name as zaphenath-panea; and he married asenath (the daughter of the high priest of on whose name was potiphera.  now in looking through historical records - this particular scholar found the name imhotep very similar to the idea of the rulership of joseph.  joseph came into the land worshipping the God who called himself (I AM that I AM) or 'im'.  joseph became a ruler - second only to pharoah and actually ruled (although not as a pharoah) viceroy.

here's the article:  www.logon.org/_domain/abrahams-legacy.org/sojourn-egypt.html

now, as i see it - either the bible is a pretty good historic account (including for dating purposes - as it records things fairly accurately in terms of geneologies) and we can correlate egyptian, hebrew, syrian writings together and confirm accounts rather than have them in disagreement.

430 years accounts probably for the 30 years of joseph's coming to egypt and finally becoming a ruler (at age 30) and 400 years of sojourn in egypt (including the period of slavery - which some say happened at the end of the hyksos period with a 'king that did not know joseph').

interesting side note:  did you know that the obelisk of this tuthmosis III is in central park, nyc.  twould be interesting to have someone interpret the writings on this particular obelisk.  could be that it relates some of the story of the israelites in egypt.  or 'isrir.'

now, moses was also raised in the pharoah's household and was treated as royalty until he left around age 40?  there's probably egyptian documentation for moses as being of royal household of whomever was hapsetshut's father.

as i said - i'm not arguing scholarship.  just trying to make sense of it and date things accurately from both a literal reading of the hebrew bible and egyptian records (translated to english).  quite interesting is the rendition of the story of joseph and aseneth - which , btw, no one doubts as being true in the base form of joseph marrying this egyptian princess.  the egyptian names for him and aseneth should be recorded somewhere's in egyptian history.  the names being egyptian and not hebrew.

i don't feel it is tamborine banging to look at historical accounts and do comparative research.

[ahinton]

the children of israel KEPT going into egypt.  why?  because God wanted records kept of actual occurances.

But how often does, for example, the Israel Philharmonic Orchestra perform in Egypt today? I wonder what God would think about that in terms of this desire to maintain records of such sojourns with which you credit Him.

for instance, sarah first met a pharoah (and abraham - being a very wise man - is thought to have brought egypt higher mathematics and astronomical information!) joseph was made a ruler in egypt.  moses was raised in royal household.  jesus own family fled into egypt.  the accounts of historical facts were ALWAYS recorded in egypt.

I guess that, being neither a Christian nor any kind of Bible scholar, historian or anthropologist, I should keep my nose out of this - but then I'd not likely have contributed anything very helpful here in any case, given that, for me, "Sarah" conjures up a most gorgeous high soprano and "Abraham(s)" a spectacularly fine editor and typesetter of Sorabji's and my scores, "Joseph" prompts thoughts of the Austrian composers Haydn and Marx (and hopefully does not incite undue momories of Stalin) and Moses brings to mind half of Schönberg's unfinished(?) opera Moses und Aron...

God is great!  He makes no mistakes.

Then He will certainly be well able to tell you when your printer cartridges are about to expire (see your thread on that subject) - ashes to ashes, dust to dust, toner to no toner, etc...

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

i don't feel it is tamborine banging to look at historical accounts and do comparative research.

Indeed not - but I do not think that Thal was suggesting that it is so, do you? What he wrote seemed to me to refer instead to the specific kinds of Christian with whom he has increasingly found it rather pointless to try to engage in argument or discussion of certain issues.

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

Indeed not - but I do not think that Thal was suggesting that it is so, do you? What he wrote seemed to me to refer instead to the specific kinds of Christian with whom he has increasingly found it rather pointless to try to engage in arguement or discussion of certain issues.

Best,

Alistair

Described to perfection. I find that to debate with her is completely pointless. Not even Prometheus seems to bother any more. Eventually, nobody will and she will just end up talking to herself, whilst claiming some kind of pathetic victory if nobody is challenging her. She has defeated me with ignorance and boredom before.

I try to take a balanced view and look at both sides, but to debate with somebody who believes in every word of an ancient book of myths and legends is time wasting, frustrating and pointless.

I do actually pity the women in as much as her eyes will remained closed to many truths and she will live the rest of her life with a warped view of history.

You cannot debate, argue or reason with ignorant fanatics.

Thal

[gyzzzmo]

This is a a problem when argumenting with any 'true believer'. At the end youll always see that little can be proven and that 'believing it or not' is the final stage of the discussion.
Only with certain people you will reach that stage much faster because they're not open to any idea (ignorant) that might contradict to their perfect and short-sighted world. 

Gyzzzmo

[mad_max2024]

This is a a problem when argumenting with any 'true believer'. At the end youll always see that little can be proven and that 'believing it or not' is the final stage of the discussion.
Only with certain people you will reach that stage much faster because they're not open to any idea (ignorant) that might contradict to their perfect and short-sighted world. 

Gyzzzmo

Exactly right
They try to alter their perception of the world to match their beliefs instead of altering their beliefs according to what they perceive in the world...

[thalbergmad]

This is a a problem when argumenting with any 'true believer'. At the end youll always see that little can be proven and that 'believing it or not' is the final stage of the discussion.
Only with certain people you will reach that stage much faster because they're not open to any idea (ignorant) that might contradict to their perfect and short-sighted world. 

Gyzzzmo

Nicely put.

I can see i am wasting my time and will do so no longer.

Sometimes i find it very difficult, especially when i see something so ridiculous that i feel i must say something. But, whatever is said will make no difference.

Thanks

Thal

[ahinton]

I try to take a balanced view and look at both sides, but to debate with somebody who believes in every word of an ancient book of myths and legends is time wasting, frustrating and pointless.

I have read all of your posts on these kinds of subject and it is perfectly obvious to me that, as well as on occasion being unpleasantly barbed (probably due to impatience and frustration), you have made (and are continuing to make) a considerable and detailed study of the history of the periods concerned, with special reference to the way such things have been reported, described and otherwise referred to in what we nowadays have as - and call - the Bible, to the point that it is well evident that the thoughts and ideas that you have expressed stem from ample reading and research rather relying on mere gut instinct or "belief". As you and othes have observed, the extent to which it is possible to "debate and discuss" such things with others who, whatever their factual knowledge may be, rely principally upon their belief sets, is questionable; in some cases, such differences of approach can make such exchanges fraught with difficulties and, in the worse case scenario, it can render them well-nigh impossible.

I do actually pity the women in as much as her eyes will remained closed to many truths and she will live the rest of her life with a warped view of history.

I think you mean "woman"; there can only be one "pianistimo", surely?! The danger you imply here is indeed very real; belief is not supposed to be an excuse for the suspension of realities and, when it becomes so, it is thereby undermined and devalued.

You cannot debate, argue or reason with ignorant fanatics.

No - not usefully, at any rate. Just as I suggested, however, that "pianistimo" seemed to have misunderstood what you wrote a little earlier today, I think it only fair also to counter your reference to the "ignorant" here by observing that she is far from "ignorant"; "intransigent", perhaps, in the extent of her frequent and inflexible prioritising of blind and not-so-blind beliefs over facts and realities, but not "ignorant" per se.

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

Alistair, as per always, you bring balance, sense and fair judgement.

Thal

[ahinton]

Alistair, as per always, you bring balance, sense and fair judgement.

Thal

I do try, Thal, mon cher...

Best,

Alistair

[pianistimo]

peace pipe.  new topic.

ps someday you're going to need JC to help you  out. 

[prometheus]

If Jesus Christ exists then maybe he can help me explain science to you.


And then maybe god can forgive you telling him how he should have created mankind.

[ahinton]

peace pipe.  new topic.

Not a lot of good to a non-smoker, is that...

ps someday you're going to need JC to help you  out. 

Well, you would say that, would you not?! However, He was crucified many years ago, so it would in any case be an unrequited need, would it not? And please don't give me this stuff about a second coming, Susan dear; I know that you believe that and you're perfectly entitled to do so, but not even all Christians share that belief, you know...

Best,

Alistair

[prometheus]

How do you know Jesus Christ was crucified? He probably never existed.

[ahinton]

How do you know Jesus Christ was crucified? He probably never existed.

I don't. WIth this fact in mind, it is evident that I would have been wiser to add the words "According to legend that is corroborated in a number of Biblical and other texts" before "He was crucified..."; I hope that this caveat makes my statement clearer and more meaningful.

That said, there is plenty of circumstantial evidence for Christ's existence and no great shortage of the same that suggests that He was indeed crucified either, although I would be the first to admit that this does not, in and of itself, constitute incontrovertible proof in either case.

Best,

Alistair

[prometheus]

Ok, my misunderstanding.

[meisel]

Btw, a danish professor in Psychology, Helmuth Nyborg, just released a rapport that said that atheists are more intelligent than believers. The difference between them was 5,8 points. This research took place in USA, where 7000 people were tested, with the "National Longitudal Study of Youth".

His hypothesis is that less intelligent people seek easy answers. The intelligent ones, however, are more sceptical and dont blindly accept dogmas.

 

I couldnt find an english site about this, im afraid.

[prometheus]

Even worse about the US is that eventhough the US has an extraordinary high amount of religion for a western country and also quite high wealth for a western country the US has just as extraordinary numbers of homocides, high suicide, high abortion rates and teenage pregnancy, etc.

Seems instead of making these problems less worse as claimed it may even increase them.

[thalbergmad]

His hypothesis is that less intelligent people seek easy answers. The intelligent ones, however, are more sceptical and dont blindly accept dogmas.

I cannot help but agree with that, but would add that blind faith suppresses intelligence.

Thal

[pianistimo]

there is no such thing as BLIND faith.  the eyes of the blind will be opened at Jesus return.

[soliloquy]

How do you know Jesus Christ was crucified? He probably never existed.

Highly doubtful that he didn't exist.  Whether he was the son of God or just pretending is obviously the point of argument here

[pianistimo]

as i see it - you have to have a grain of a mustard seed of faith to start something with God.  you have to believe and then He does show you that He is.

[soliloquy]

as i see it - you have to have a grain of a mustard seed of faith to start something with God.  you have to believe and then He does show you that He is.

Pianistimo, I want to ask you a question, and in no way is it meant to be taken as a derogatory; this question is also for anyone else who believes in God, but mostly for you because I'm sure you'll respond first.  I want to know why you have faith in God.  Is it because you simply choose to because it is favorable to a godless world, because you were brought up that way, had a divine experience etc?

[pianistimo]

one day you just wake up and find out that He's real.  then, you can't deny it anymore.  basically, i grew up in a church but i wasn't interested in doing much but playing piano for it.  i had a boyfriend and he was not interested in God at all.  around age 16.  then - between what i heard (because i think you have to hear God's word - to be aware of it) at church and what i saw from him (tending towards drugs - but he was a really nice guy) i saw i had a choice to make.  i was never interested in drugs - but, i mean lifestyle.  i realized that if i left home and ran off with him that i would be making a huge choice.  but, even more than that - i would also be making a choice for my future children.

maybe women are more inclined to believe in God because they do need security and safety and love.  God provides all of this.  if i would have seen it earlier - there would have been no need for a boyfriend at that point anyways.

to make a long story short - i decided that after several almost fatal car incidents that God was real (not my boyfriends fault - excepting his tires were bald and we ended up sliding backwards down a ski hill drive - and righting ourselves before going over an embankment --he was a good driver, too - but I think God answered that prayer).  and, then a head on collision where i prayed in an instant - as i saw headlights coming at us - and somehow the oncoming car ended up on the other side of us.  i really don't know how - to this day.  my boyfriend at the time was a very good driver - and i don't think he could afford a whole set of tires - so it wasn't the tires that made me worry.  i felt in my heart that God was forcing me to make a choice.  it was wierd.  the first time i ever felt God talking to me in my heart.

also, when i was about 8 - i was made vaguely aware that maybe God wanted me to live - because also i was in a downed plane about 15 miles out of fairbanks.  the engine stalled and the people that were flying me (independent of my parents) to circle hotsprings to meet my parents - had the good sense to not panic.  they floated the plane down, even though the engine quit.  it was way in the minuses (30 below i think) and mid-winter obviously.  they brought a tent, a coleman stove, plenty of socks, and smarts - but still the weather was terrible.  they were a God send in terms of not panicking and making it like a camping trip.  but, i remember midway through the night getting so cold and i might have prayed.  i don't remember, but i know i did in the morning.  we made a big SOS in the snow - and when the military helicopter picked us up - i think at that point i was sure God must have been watching out for us.  just a small spec in the wilderness.  i'm so glad the wolves didn't bother us either.  i don't know if anyone even had a gun.

so...to make a long winded story short - it's kind of all of the above.

[pianistimo]

once you believe in God and are baptized - though, things dramatically change.  i'm telling the truth!  i have had so many prayers answered.  even small ones.  big ones.  medium ones.  doesn't matter the size.  God is real to me.

[prometheus]

Blind faith is planted in you by your parents, like a mustard seed. And then it slowly starts to grow into something huge. I though you didn't agree with the idea that religion is an infection, a virus. But you do think faith is a mustard seed planted in you that just grows?

All faith is blind by definition. Be it religious faith or not. Faith is believing in something for which there is no evidence.

Highly doubtful that he didn't exist.

I don't understand. How can you say there when there is an utter lack of evidence for a historical Jesus.

[pianistimo]

why the large amount of christians.  it is not just one isolated proof, but many.  one of which is the Spirit of God. we can see it after baptism much clearer.  it is the opposite of self and thinking for one's self.  the Spirit of God is love.  love for others.  you don't fully comprend this until you meet God on HIS terms.

i'm not saying non-christians are not loving.  i'm saying that when you 'see' - you realize Jesus Christ gave up everything.  his fame and fortune here - and his life.  everything!  for us.  that is love!

any goal worth having takes some effort, right?!  that's the way it is with the kingdom of God (as the bible says).  you have to 'count the cost.'  the cost might be sacrificing what you want for pleasing the community and God.  noone is righteous - but if we love God we try to be 'like Him.'

[prometheus]

Jesus Christ gave up his fame and fortune? Uuh, Jesus is god and he is one of the most famous figures ever and he gave rise to a religion that ammassed tremendous wealth.

As for 'seeing god'. Accidentally, I was baptised. Probably because my grandmother wished this. Yes, it's child abuse to try to band-mark a innocent child with a religion. But even my non-religious parents felt forced to have me abused by the church.

Granted, after that I didn't have to put up with any more religion and as a result I am one of the few anti-theists that isn't angry.

But I have been baptised and I don't 'see' god. Yes, you need to accept him on his terms. You need blind faith to have blind faith, bla bla.

I just oppose human sacrifice and blind faith. Now stop blabbering and give me a real reason to consider the existence of god.

[ahinton]

Blind faith is planted in you by your parents, like a mustard seed. And then it slowly starts to grow into something huge. I though you didn't agree with the idea that religion is an infection, a virus. But you do think faith is a mustard seed planted in you that just grows?

All faith is blind by definition. Be it religious faith or not. Faith is believing in something for which there is no evidence.

Faith in anything is not necessarily always "planted" in someone by someone else; one can develop one's own faith - in God, in one's piano playing, in all manner of things - without that "mustard seed" necessarily having first to be planted by someone else. Can one realistically imagine, for example, that Beethoven's faith in his creative abilities was entirely "planted" in him by, say, Haydn? I think that he eventually cut the mustard, though...

I don't understand. How can you say there when there is an utter lack of evidence for a historical Jesus.

Whilst there remain many unanswered - and indeed probably unanswerable - questions on this, I do rather think that your suggestion of "an utter lack of evidence for a historical Jesus" seems to be something of an exaggeration...

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

why the large amount of christians.

Effective PR, perhaps?

i'm not saying non-christians are not loving.

I'm mightily relieved to hear it!

i'm saying that when you 'see' - you realize Jesus Christ gave up everything.

When you "see" what, exactly? All you do is read the various historical evidence, such as it is - and then you form your conclusions as to what Jesus Christ did in those parts of His life that are documented at all - and, let's face it, we do not exactly have the kind of detailed biography to go on that we might do had he lived some nineteen centuries later, do we?...

his fame and fortune here - and his life.  everything!  for us.  that is love!

"Fame and fortune". What? From a carpentry business? He wasn't exactly running Ikea, you know! Seriously, I'm not suggesting that He didn;t "give up" anything, but what exctly did He really give up? (and, whatever your andwer may be, on what precise evidence is it based?).

any goal worth having takes some effort, right?!

No one in his/her right mind would seek to argue with that!

that's the way it is with the kingdom of God (as the bible says).  you have to 'count the cost.'  the cost might be sacrificing what you want for pleasing the community and God.  noone is righteous - but if we love God we try to be 'like Him.'

Susan, you're getting on that hobby horse again! I do realise that this thread is entitled "God poll", but you're getting away from the rather more interesting question of why it is that you have faith in God. I'm quite sure that "soliloquy" was not at all suggesting that you shouldn't have it, but I for one did find your rather long answer to his question rather confusing; it seemed to me like a whole bunch of arbitrary life experiences, any one or combination of which might or might not have resulted in your acquiring Christian faith - or perhaps I didn't read it carefully enough...

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

Jesus Christ gave up his fame and fortune? Uuh, Jesus is god and he is one of the most famous figures ever and he gave rise to a religion that ammassed tremendous wealth.

As I implied in another post here, I'm far from certain that Jesus Christ was, or became, especially wealthy during his lifetime. As for the wealth amassed by certain sectors of the Christian Church, this is self-evidently something for which Jesus Christ can be expected to shoulder no responsibility whatsoever, since He did not found the business of the Christian Church even though He can be said to have founded the Church itself. This amassing of wealth has happened - to the extent that it has happened at all - over some twenty centuries and I'm not in any case all that convinced that it as great or as widespread as you might think, either, since, for example, the Church of England (the so-called "established" - i.e. "official" - Protestant Christian Church in UK) is now reckoned to be short of at least fifty million pounds purely to maintain proper upkeep of the major English cathedrals in which it conducts its business (and these places are important historical buildings in their own right, admired as such by Christians and non-Christians alike). There can be no doubt that, from a "wealth" standpoint, the Church of England has for some long time been a poorly run business and, were it not for the charitable support of many people, it would probably have had to call in either a heavy-duty business troubleshooter or the official receiver before now.

As for 'seeing god'. Accidentally, I was baptised.

How can you be baptised "accidentally"? Did someone in a Christian Church drop you in a font full of water by accident? I really don't mean to be facetious here, but I don't understand what you mean by the "accidental" aspect of your baptism.

Probably because my grandmother wished this. Yes, it's child abuse to try to band-mark a innocent child with a religion. But even my non-religious parents felt forced to have me abused by the church.

You do not say (and perhaps you prefer to keep it private, in which case I will respect that) in what ways either you were "abused" by the Church or your parents were "forced", against their own stance in such matters, knowingly to allow this to happen. Whether a simple baptism ceremony at an age when a child's consciousness of what is happening is in its infancy can reasonably be deemed to constitute "child abuse" as such is open to question; there are many aspects of human behaviour that would fall under a generally acceptable definition of "child abuse" in so-called "civilised" Western society, but I remain to be convinced that baptism itself is one of them. To "band-mark a(n) innocent child with a religion" may not necessarily constitute child abuse either, although I can see why it could in certain cases come to be thought of as rather nearer to that than would be merely subjecting one to a baptismal ceremony that in almost all cases will not even be remembered by that child; to force religion down a child's throat subsequently - especially if done in cetain ways beloved of the fundamentalists - is, however, quite a different matter.

Granted, after that I didn't have to put up with any more religion and as a result I am one of the few anti-theists that isn't angry.

I have no children of my own, but I nevertheless retain at least as much distaste for the entire business of "forcing" religion on children as you do; likewise, I have no patience with deliberately hiding the existence of religion from them either. However, just as you didn't have to end up within the Christian faith, you didn't necessarily have to end up as an atheist either (and I note your use of the more hard-line fundamentalist term "anti-theist" here, which appears to distinguish you from many other atheists who, whilst subscribing to no religious faith, are not actually opposed to others doing so); that has eventually been your own personal choice.

But I have been baptised and I don't 'see' god. Yes, you need to accept him on his terms. You need blind faith to have blind faith, bla bla.

This notion of "seeing" God is one promoted by certain Christians and simply does not admit of being taken literally, irrespective of whether or to what extent any individual Christian may him/herself choose to try to do so or to persuade others that he/she does so.

I just oppose human sacrifice

I imagine that most of us here would do that!

and blind faith. Now stop blabbering and give me a real reason to consider the existence of god.

Over to Susan here, since you are obviously not addressing this request to me.

I was not baptised, nor was I encouraged to have anything to do with religious activity or consort with religious-minded people; on the other hand, I was never DIScouraged from these things either - it was simply left up to me to decide what, if anything, I wanted to do about that. To that extent, then, no one ever coerced me to believe or disbelieve in anything. I see nothing essentially wrong with that. Not only can I not "see" God, I really cannot - like yourself - imagine how being baptised would have improved my eyesight in that respect. That said, I have never felt contempt for those who claim that they do "see" God; I merely do not understand the concept, nor am I able to identify with or respond to it as do those who do claim to be able to "see" God. Who knows? This could change. All I am determined to do is neither to encourage nor discourage any such change of stance.

The nearest I can get to grasping what's meant when people say that they "see God" is a desire to aspire to something greater and higher than those things of our temporal existence. Well, there's surely nothing wrong with that in and of itself - and it is, in any case, arguably a fairly basic human instinct; it could, for example, be reasonably argued that the Beethoven of the Op. 1 piano trios aspired to become the Beethoven of the C# minor quartet. Developing visionary qualities through exercising the creative imagination is one thing; "seeing God", however, seems to me to be quite another.

Susan - on the one hand you write about acquiring and maintaining faith as requiring effort (and you add that anything worth having is deserving of such effort), yet at other times you offer the impression that it's simply there (in the sense that "prometheus" calls it "blind faith" - i.e. not requiring any intellectual or other effort); this is clearly a contradiction in terms that seems not especially helpful to anyone who may genuinely be trying to understand why it is that you have faith in God.

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

Jesus Christ gave up his fame and fortune?

well, obviously you do not believe that, but

"As an artist you don't rake in a million marks without performing some sacrifice on the Altar of Art." -Franz Liszt

Whom do you suppose made the most money, then? - Jesus Christ or Franz Liszt? Just curious...

Best,

Alistair

[timothy42b]

Pianistimo, I want to ask you a question, and in no way is it meant to be taken as a derogatory; this question is also for anyone else who believes in God, but mostly for you because I'm sure you'll respond first.  I want to know why you have faith in God.  Is it because you simply choose to because it is favorable to a godless world, because you were brought up that way, had a divine experience etc?

I think the response to this falls in two broad categories.  Ultimately they may be only one, but for practical purposes currently they are two.

There are a large number of people like pianistimmo who believe because they mistakenly think there is proof.  When anyone intelligent examines such proof it quickly evaporates.  Sorry, but it's true.  This normally leads to anger and defensiveness on the part of the believer and derision from the onlooker. 

There is a somewhat smaller subset of people like me who, having a scientific background, have the ability to look at the evidence a little more critically and realize how silly it is.  Nevertheless, for some strange reason not fully explained, we retain a level of faith.  (Of course some of the ignorance and superstition associated had to go, but we still accept a supernatural Deity.) 

[wishful thinker]

Thomas autem unus ex duodecim qui dicitur Didymus non erat cum eis quando venit Iesus

Dixerunt ergo ei alii discipuli vidimus Dominum ille autem dixit eis nisi videro in manibus eius figuram clavorum et mittam digitum meum in locum clavorum et mittam manum meam in latus eius non credam

Et post dies octo iterum erant discipuli eius intus et Thomas cum eis venit Iesus ianuis clausis et stetit in medio et dixit pax vobis

Deinde dicit Thomae infer digitum tuum huc et vide manus meas et adfer manum tuam et mitte in latus meum et noli esse incredulus sed fidelis

Respondit Thomas et dixit ei Dominus meus et Deus meus

Dicit ei Iesus quia vidisti me credidisti beati qui non viderunt et crediderunt

Multa quidem et alia signa fecit Iesus in conspectu discipulorum suorum quae non sunt scripta in libro hoc

Haec autem scripta sunt ut credatis quia Iesus est Christus Filius Dei et ut credentes vitam habeatis in nomine eius

[ahinton]

Thomas autem unus ex duodecim qui dicitur Didymus non erat cum eis quando venit Iesus

Dixerunt ergo ei alii discipuli vidimus Dominum ille autem dixit eis nisi videro in manibus eius figuram clavorum et mittam digitum meum in locum clavorum et mittam manum meam in latus eius non credam

Et post dies octo iterum erant discipuli eius intus et Thomas cum eis venit Iesus ianuis clausis et stetit in medio et dixit pax vobis

Deinde dicit Thomae infer digitum tuum huc et vide manus meas et adfer manum tuam et mitte in latus meum et noli esse incredulus sed fidelis

Respondit Thomas et dixit ei Dominus meus et Deus meus

Dicit ei Iesus quia vidisti me credidisti beati qui non viderunt et crediderunt

Multa quidem et alia signa fecit Iesus in conspectu discipulorum suorum quae non sunt scripta in libro hoc

Haec autem scripta sunt ut credatis quia Iesus est Christus Filius Dei et ut credentes vitam habeatis in nomine eius

I do hope that Nils doesn't edit this one out on language grounds, especially given the obvious appositeness of "et mittam digitum meum in locum clavorum "...

Best,

Alistair

[wishful thinker]

Its all gone quiet Mr Hinton    Do you think that they are all busy declining and conjugating?

Either way, its a result 

[ahinton]

Its all gone quiet Mr Hinton 

Not for the first time here, M. le Penseur

Do you think that they are all busy declining and conjugating?

The general deafening silence certainly appears to suggest that they are declining (to answer), but whether or not they are conjugating I'm not sure I'd care to speculate; given the large number of children that she has, "pianistimo"'s obviously been good at conjugating, but I don't know whether her extensive and time-consuming participation in this forum allows her much time for that kind of activity nowadays (although no doubt she will correct me if I am wrong about that)...

Best,

Alistair

[pianistimo]

prometheus states that he believes faith is implanted in us by our parents.  how would this explain the large amount of christians who's parents are non-religious.  or, like me - who were against their parents thought-processes for many years.  my mother would read the bible- but i would roll my eyes and 'escape' her presence at times i could get away.  but, when i would go cycling i would think about things that she said - yes.  sometimes i would have a 'battle' in my mind.  is she right?  is she wrong?  i don't think she could have convinced me as God did.  He was less 'strong' if you want to call it that.  gently, i felt His presence more and more in my life.  if i was open to listening to 'the word' (bible) and conscience to do what i believed was truthful.

now, there are many religions - so if one is to take the stance of prometheus - ANY religion blindly accepted by one's parents would be unfaithful to one's own mental processes in terms of 'physical knowledge.'

BUT - there is a spiritual knowledge that PASSES physical knowledge.  it is beyond it by LOVE.  there is nothing that we don't know already that cannot be assumed into the 'whole' of love.  GOD IS LOVE.  prometheus's grandparents probably wanted to be assurred that after death - prometheus would be 'with God.'  that was a loving act and not in any way abusive, imo.  but, the example of Christ was that he was baptized at 30 years of age!  he chose to make it a public acknowledgement that God was His father and the one that He would put first in His life (before anything or anyone).

seems that around valentines - this is a good way to approach the idea of true love.  it isn't what you can get.  it is what you can give while you are alive.  Jesus could have made his life mission anything!  He could have told everyone - I am God - worship me now!  but, He didn't. He was humble.  He could have made a huge success of his carpentry or whatever - but He didn't.  He chose to be poor!  He made Himself accessible and loving to all walks of people.  the rich don't necessarily have time for the poor or those who are needing healing.  Jesus healed many people.  what is most amazing is that He could also heal people's minds.  (of course the magicians of the time didn't like that - because they could manipulate others.  when Christ would cast out demons - they couldn't manipulate these people anymore).

as i read the bible - we have a choice in this life.  good or evil.  but, we wouldn't know what good or evil WAS without the law.  God gave us the law through moses.  but, through Christ a way to overcome the law of sin and death (which all of us sin at one time or other).  He didn't want us to become discouraged in this life. 

now - if a person is non-religious - they may or may not believe that anything happens after death.  but, a Christian - knows in their heart that is the REASON they become baptized.  just as with a marriage ceremony - you are uniting yourself with GOD to be your 'mate' in this life and the next.  He overcomes death for us.  Unless we are 'born again' of spirit - we will not inherit eternal life!  those are words from the bible.  God spoke to everyone - not just jewish people. He asked the samaritan woman - 'would you like to drink water from which you will never be thirsty again.'  she thought He was joking with her!  but, then, He goes and tells her all about her life (without having known or seen her before).  that peaked her interest because she wanted to know if He was from God. 

same with us.  God knows every hair on our heads and everything about us.  But, unless we go to Him and ask Him for help in our lives - we are pretty much on our own.  we can do as we choose.  but, are our choices the best ones?  what if there is life after death?  then, who's side will be the best?  the side of amassing great wealth here and not being able to take it with us.  or amassing wealth in the kingdom of God.  spiritual things.  these things are not noticed by the average person - but noticed by God.  if we listen to His words - we activate our minds to be responsive to what we hear from our conscience.  whether something is good or bad.  it is not that we become automotons - or have no choice.  we choose 'life' - willingly -  because Christ died so that we might live.

**once you desire to be with God now and in the future - your mind turns to seeking God.  the best way to do that is to read HIS WORD.  what he says.  it's like a piano lesson.  if you go for the lessons  and then forget what is said - it is useless.

[timothy42b]

prometheus states that he believes faith is implanted in us by our parents.  how would this explain the large amount of christians who's parents are non-religious. 

This doesn't happen.  That large amount of Christians DOES NOT EXIST.  You made this up. 

For all practical purposes, if you didn't have a good childhood experience with church, you never return to it.  This is of great concern to observers who note that baby boomers mostly did not take their kids to church, resulting in an entire generation without those fond memories.
 

[pianistimo]

one last thing, too.  baptism helps you in this life.  one you openly proclaim your service first to God then to man - you have access to the greatest fount of wisdom in the entire universe.  there is noone more wise than God to help you make decisions - to guide you - and to bless you.  without the blessings of God, this life is not worth living.  it is as though you are in a dark room without a knowledge of where the lightswitch is.  but, when you are baptized you know the lightswitch is God Himself.  He illuminates our path in good times and bad.  that is why christians often read the psalms of David.  david went through many ups and downs in His life - but never doubted that God was with him.

on the other side of the coin (as wishful thinker may have written about?) we have doubting thomas.  and yet, God shows him plainly after the ressurrection that it IS possible to be ressurrected after death.  it is the hope of our salvation that makes us see beyond what we can physically see.

[pianistimo]

dear timothy42b,

there are MANY christians who come to God through other means than their parents.  you are misstating because you have not checked your facts.  why not do a poll in some church and ask how people came to God or the knowledge.  some will say by a 'tv' program where i heard what i believed was truth.  i was not raised in a church.  some will say - i sunk into depression and could not get out of it.  i met a person and they encouraged me by teaching me about God and His ways.  some will say - i was an orphan.  i was in a war.  i almost died of cancer.  etc etc.  God comes to you where you are at - and when you seek Him you find him.  you don't have to be raised by christians.

i have met many people such as myself, too, who personally felt God calling them - despite the fact they grew up in a church.  i was not particularly religious at 16.  i was baptized around age 21 and my life completely CHANGED.  i am telling you the absolute truth.  i felt like a huge 'cloud' had lifted from my life.   i had a direction to follow and i wanted to follow it.  the first thing you notice is joy in your life.  it is because your conscience is FREE.  you put your burdens of sin and sadness on Christ and repent.  that causes you to feel very light and happy.  you no longer worry or have doubts.  also, it frees you from thinking excessively about yourself.  to think about others.  to care for your friends/family - and to generally have the 'cup full' for yourself so you can pass it on to others.

[ahinton]

prometheus states that he believes faith is implanted in us by our parents.  how would this explain the large amount of christians who's parents are non-religious.  or, like me - who were against their parents thought-processes for many years.

Although it is not as clear as it might be, I am not sure that "prometheus" meant that this always happens or that no one ever has such faith unless it is implanted by parents (grandparents, in "prometheus"'s case, anyway).

now, there are many religions - so if one is to take the stance of prometheus - ANY religion blindly accepted by one's parents would be unfaithful to one's own mental processes in terms of 'physical knowledge.'

I'm not sure that this is precisely what "prometheus" is saying, but I certainly don't buyt it anyway.

BUT - there is a spiritual knowledge that PASSES physical knowledge.

OK.

prometheus's grandparents probably wanted to be assurred that after death - prometheus would be 'with God.'  that was a loving act and not in any way abusive, imo.

We must be careful here; we do not know "prometheus" personally, nor those grandparents, so we are in no position to judge, or even draw reliable conclusion, as to what their motivations and intentions may have been in this regard; if it was as you describe it (without authority), then yes, it would of course have been non-abusive but, as I wrote, we do not know the precise nature of the circumstances.

Jesus could have made his life mission anything!

Especially if he'd read and absorbed some of those American self-help books that incite the contempt of "ada"! ("just kidding", as you yourself would say...)

He could have told everyone - I am God - worship me now!  but, He didn't. He was humble.  He could have made a huge success of his carpentry or whatever - but He didn't.  He chose to be poor!

Professional success and wealth are not necessarily synonymous; as a composer, I should know! In any case, I don't think that even you have sufficient evidence to prove one way or the other how successful that carpentry business might have been.

we wouldn't know what good or evil WAS without the law.  God gave us the law through moses.  but, through Christ a way to overcome the law of sin and death (which all of us sin at one time or other).

Bet He didn't give us copyright law, though! (joke! - only a joke!)

now - if a person is non-religious - they may or may not believe that anything happens after death.  but, a Christian - knows in their heart that is the REASON they become baptized.

But most people get baptised at an age when they don't and can't know know anything at all!

just as with a marriage ceremony - you are uniting yourself with GOD to be your 'mate' in this life and the next.

Oh - I thought that this kind of ceremony was all about two humans plighting their troth and "uniting" (and quite what our Australian correspondent "ada" would make of your use of the term "mate" I shudder to think - not two but THREE nations divided by a common language, perhaps [and I do NOT mean "da SDC lingo either!]).

Unless we are 'born again' of spirit - we will not inherit eternal life!

Oh, well, that's curtains for me, then - I'd have thought that one birth experience was quite enough...

God spoke to everyone - not just jewish people. He asked the samaritan woman - 'would you like to drink water from which you will never be thirsty again.'  she thought He was joking with her!  but, then, He goes and tells her all about her life (without having known or seen her before).

That might well have struck her as a classic example of the result of the kind of surveillance wherewith we are all increasingly besieged these days...

God knows every hair on our heads

Then I wish He could know just that little bit more about me! (think about it!)...

**once you desire to be with God now and in the future - your mind turns to seeking God.  the best way to do that is to read HIS WORD.  what he says.  it's like a piano lesson.  if you go for the lessons  and then forget what is said - it is useless.

Damn! I KNEW I should have taken my piano lessons more seriously; my only excuse for not doing so was that I knew right from day minus one that I'd never be a pianist...

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

one last thing, too.  baptism helps you in this life.

Not if you aren't baptised, it doesn't.

without the blessings of God, this life is not worth living.  it is as though you are in a dark room without a knowledge of where the lightswitch is.  but, when you are baptized you know the lightswitch is God Himself.

Too close a proximity of electricity and water is not a good idea, you know...

we have doubting thomas.  and yet, God shows him plainly after the ressurrection that it IS possible to be ressurrected after death.

I cannot help it, but the very word "Resurrection" conjures up just one name to me - not Jesus, not God, not Thomas, but MAHLER...

Sorry, Susan; I'm not trying to undermine your belief (as I'm sure you know), still less make fun of it or you, but we simply can't all go that way, you know...

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

there are MANY christians who come to God through other means than their parents.

I do not doubt the veracity of that.

i have met many people such as myself, too, who personally felt God calling them - despite the fact they grew up in a church.  i was not particularly religious at 16.  i was baptized around age 21 and my life completely CHANGED.  i am telling you the absolute truth.  i felt like a huge 'cloud' had lifted from my life.   i had a direction to follow and i wanted to follow it.  the first thing you notice is joy in your life.  it is because your conscience is FREE.  you put your burdens of sin and sadness on Christ and repent.  that causes you to feel very light and happy.  you no longer worry or have doubts.  also, it frees you from thinking excessively about yourself.  to think about others.  to care for your friends/family - and to generally have the 'cup full' for yourself so you can pass it on to others.

That's fine - for you. You've been very honest in telling us how this happened for you, which we can surely apprecaite for what it is. It's just that this kind of experience cannot and does not happen to everyone like that, or indeed at all.

Best,

Alistair

[prometheus]

prometheus states that he believes faith is implanted in us by our parents.

Not only that. It is also in the bible. The musterd seed of faith thing. That was my point.

how would this explain the large amount of christians who's parents are non-religious
.  or, like me - who were against their parents thought-processes for many years.

Obviously the parents don't have a monopoly in infecting children with faith. There are many other parts of society  that are similar. Come on, you know this. Why don't you believe in Isis or in Enlil or in some other dead god. Why aren't you a hindu or a muslim? There are tons of dead religions, tons of living ones and you choose the one of your parents. You claim you are an example that this idea is wrong and then you cite yourself as an example. But you claim your mother read you from the bible. I don't understand.
And even if you were not following this principle then that only makes you an exception. I never claimed there will be no exceptions.

i don't think she could have convinced me as God did.  He was less 'strong' if you want to call it that.  gently, i felt His presence more and more in my life.  if i was open to listening to 'the word' (bible) and conscience to do what i believed was truthful.

But she implanted the seed of faith.

now, there are many religions - so if one is to take the stance of prometheus - ANY religion blindly accepted by one's parents would be unfaithful to one's own mental processes in terms of 'physical knowledge.'

Yes, every religion is a primitive superstition.

[wishful thinker]

Erat autem ibi fons Iacob Iesus ergo fatigatus ex itinere sedebat sic super fontem hora erat quasi sexta
Venit mulier de Samaria haurire aquam dicit ei Iesus da mihi bibere
Discipuli enim eius abierant in civitatem ut cibos emerent
Dicit ergo ei mulier illa samaritana quomodo tu Iudaeus cum sis bibere a me poscis quae sum mulier samaritana non enim coutuntur Iudaei Samaritanis
Respondit Iesus et dixit ei si scires donum Dei et quis est qui dicit tibi da mihi bibere tu forsitan petisses ab eo et dedisset tibi aquam vivam
Dicit ei mulier Domine neque in quo haurias habes et puteus altus est unde ergo habes aquam vivam
Numquid tu maior es patre nostro Iacob qui dedit nobis puteum et ipse ex eo bibit et filii eius et pecora eius
Respondit Iesus et dixit ei omnis qui bibit ex aqua hac sitiet iterum qui autem biberit ex aqua quam ego dabo ei non sitiet in aeternum
Sed aqua quam dabo ei fiet in eo fons aquae salientis in vitam aeternam
Dicit ad eum mulier Domine da mihi hanc aquam ut non sitiam neque veniam huc haurire
Dicit ei Iesus vade voca virum tuum et veni huc
Respondit mulier et dixit non habeo virum dicit ei Iesus bene dixisti quia non habeo virum
Quinque enim viros habuisti et nunc quem habes non est tuus vir hoc vere dixisti
Dicit ei mulier Domine video quia propheta es tu
Patres nostri in monte hoc adoraverunt et vos dicitis quia Hierosolymis est locus ubi adorare oportet
Dicit ei Iesus mulier crede mihi quia veniet hora quando neque in monte hoc neque in Hierosolymis adorabitis Patrem
Vos adoratis quod nescitis nos adoramus quod scimus quia salus ex Iudaeis est
Sed venit hora et nunc est quando veri adoratores adorabunt Patrem in spiritu et veritate nam et Pater tales quaerit qui adorent eum
Spiritus est Deus et eos qui adorant eum in spiritu et veritate oportet adorare
Dicit ei mulier scio quia Messias venit qui dicitur Christus cum ergo venerit ille nobis adnuntiabit omnia
Dicit ei Iesus ego sum qui loquor tecum
Et continuo venerunt discipuli eius et mirabantur quia cum muliere loquebatur nemo tamen dixit quid quaeris aut quid loqueris cum ea
Reliquit ergo hydriam suam mulier et abiit in civitatem et dicit illis hominibus
Venite videte hominem qui dixit mihi omnia quaecumque feci numquid ipse est Christus

[ahinton]

Erat autem ibi fons Iacob Iesus ergo fatigatus ex itinere sedebat sic super fontem hora erat quasi sexta
Venit mulier de Samaria haurire aquam dicit ei Iesus da mihi bibere
Discipuli enim eius abierant in civitatem ut cibos emerent
Dicit ergo ei mulier illa samaritana quomodo tu Iudaeus cum sis bibere a me poscis quae sum mulier samaritana non enim coutuntur Iudaei Samaritanis
Respondit Iesus et dixit ei si scires donum Dei et quis est qui dicit tibi da mihi bibere tu forsitan petisses ab eo et dedisset tibi aquam vivam
Dicit ei mulier Domine neque in quo haurias habes et puteus altus est unde ergo habes aquam vivam
Numquid tu maior es patre nostro Iacob qui dedit nobis puteum et ipse ex eo bibit et filii eius et pecora eius
Respondit Iesus et dixit ei omnis qui bibit ex aqua hac sitiet iterum qui autem biberit ex aqua quam ego dabo ei non sitiet in aeternum
Sed aqua quam dabo ei fiet in eo fons aquae salientis in vitam aeternam
Dicit ad eum mulier Domine da mihi hanc aquam ut non sitiam neque veniam huc haurire
Dicit ei Iesus vade voca virum tuum et veni huc
Respondit mulier et dixit non habeo virum dicit ei Iesus bene dixisti quia non habeo virum
Quinque enim viros habuisti et nunc quem habes non est tuus vir hoc vere dixisti
Dicit ei mulier Domine video quia propheta es tu
Patres nostri in monte hoc adoraverunt et vos dicitis quia Hierosolymis est locus ubi adorare oportet
Dicit ei Iesus mulier crede mihi quia veniet hora quando neque in monte hoc neque in Hierosolymis adorabitis Patrem
Vos adoratis quod nescitis nos adoramus quod scimus quia salus ex Iudaeis est
Sed venit hora et nunc est quando veri adoratores adorabunt Patrem in spiritu et veritate nam et Pater tales quaerit qui adorent eum
Spiritus est Deus et eos qui adorant eum in spiritu et veritate oportet adorare
Dicit ei mulier scio quia Messias venit qui dicitur Christus cum ergo venerit ille nobis adnuntiabit omnia
Dicit ei Iesus ego sum qui loquor tecum
Et continuo venerunt discipuli eius et mirabantur quia cum muliere loquebatur nemo tamen dixit quid quaeris aut quid loqueris cum ea
Reliquit ergo hydriam suam mulier et abiit in civitatem et dicit illis hominibus
Venite videte hominem qui dixit mihi omnia quaecumque feci numquid ipse est Christus

They've not even replied to your last one yet...(!)

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

prometheus states that he believes faith is implanted in us by our parents.

there are MANY christians who come to God through other means than their parents.

Not only that. It is also in the bible. The musterd seed of faith thing. That was my point.

I didn't think that I'd find myself addressing you, "prometheus", when stating, as I have done before, that one cannot just accept every little phrase that's in the Bible as we have it and then take it literally. I know that some parents do instil - or attempt to instil - religious beliefs in their children and that this is by no means confined to Christian parents. It is not, however, by any means a universal practice; for one thing, not all parents are religious and, for another, not all parents who are religious do this kind of thing. I take your point about Susan's mother reading to her from the Bible, but not all religious parents would go that far and Susan's case seems, in that regard and for a number of other circumstantial reasons, to be by no means the norm here. In short, if all present-day Christians had had their Christian beliefs rammed down them by their parents at an age early enough to make it stick, there'd be a whole lot less Christians in the world than there are, not so much because some people who'd endured this treatment would have abandoned their Christianity but because the number of Christian parents who do this kind of thing is less than you think, especially nowadays.

Obviously the parents don't have a monopoly in infecting children with faith. There are many other parts of society that are similar. Come on, you know this. Why don't you believe in Isis or in Enlil or in some other dead god. Why aren't you a hindu or a muslim? There are tons of dead religions, tons of living ones and you choose the one of your parents. You claim you are an example that this idea is wrong and then you cite yourself as an example. But you claim your mother read you from the bible. I don't understand. And even if you were not following this principle then that only makes you an exception. I never claimed there will be no exceptions.

This rather smacks of being combative for the sake of it rather than entering into genuine debate. Of course you are correct to say that there are plenty of other religions, but since I have yet to read any convincing evidence that Susan opted for Christianity only because her mother happened to read to her from the Bible at a certain stage in her life, I am by no means as prepared as you are to believe that it was necessarily the case.

But she implanted the seed of faith.

Susan's mother might have done this, or she might just as easily not have done it; Susan admitted that she herself was not convinced enough to be baptised into the Christian faith until a good many years later and, it seems, no one tried to force her hand over this sooner.

Yes, every religion is a primitive superstition.

If it never goes beyond that state, it would be well-nigh worthless other than as a piece of historical curiosity; as you may realise, I am not a Christian, have never been baptised into any religious faith and have never had any mustard seeds forced down me by anyone, but those facts do not entitle me to go around telling Christians that their faith is a mere "primitive superstition", nor do I do so. It does not seem as though your own faith - that is to say anti-theism (for it is a faith, in the sense that it is something in which you have put your own faith) - has yet bequeathed upon your character a surfeit of personal tolerance, does it?!

Best,

Alistair

[prometheus]

Anti-theism is not a faith. It can be clearly observed that religion not only makes false claims, it is also harmful in many respects.

For example, Pianistimo's inability to accept the reality of darwinian evolution. Her negative opinion about homosexuals, her taking the book of a people more barbaric than the Taliban as the liternal word of god and her gullability. Religion teaches it is a a virtue to have blind faith in something that you know is probably false.


Look what it has done to the infamous Kent Hovind. Very intense faith can only lead to insanity.