Mozart - Simple Keys ?

[chopianist123]

Have Mozart written any compositions that consists of 4 or more sharps or flats?

[cygnusdei]

Wow - they are few and far between, aren't they? But there is an Adagio for Violin and Orchestra in E, K. 261. Maybe he didn't like equal temperament.

[le_poete_mourant]

Probably has something to do with the fact that Mozart's music was bought by people for not just its musical value, but its entertainment value too.  If you're looking for some sheet music to play, recreationally, and you see seven sharps, you're not going to by that piece.  It's intimidating. 

[kriskicksass]

Actually, cygnusdei is pretty close to the answer.
Mozart's music came in a time when temperament was kinda floating around, and a lot of the keys with more black keys were still considered remote to the tuning systems and therefore unusable. It also should be noted that Mozart was also a great orchestral composer and classically trained, which meant that he was rooted in C Major because 1. natural tones are easier to play on stringed instruments and at times the only ones possible on valveless horns and 2. C Major is the base of traditional solfege.

For contrast, consider Beethoven's piano music. His first piano sonata is in F minor, and by the time you get to Op. 26 he's writing in A-flat minor (I think it's in Op. 26. I'm talking about the funeral march)! But, when you consider his orchestral and chamber works, he's back to basically limiting himself to three accidentals, because anything else is uncomfortable for string players.

Honestly, as a string player, I think it's great that the classical composers thought of the orchestra in their choice of keys. Composers like Tchaikovsky, who wrote his first piano concerto in B-flat Minor, are just plain mean!

[phil13]

There are a few sparse sections in the piano sonatas that are in F minor- 4 flats.

Phil

[mikey6]

For contrast, consider Beethoven's piano music. His first piano sonata is in F minor, and by the time you get to Op. 26 he's writing in A-flat minor (I think it's in Op. 26. I'm talking about the funeral march)! But, when you consider his orchestral and chamber works, he's back to basically limiting himself to three accidentals, because anything else is uncomfortable for string players.

Honestly, as a string player, I think it's great that the classical composers thought of the orchestra in their choice of keys. Composers like Tchaikovsky, who wrote his first piano concerto in B-flat Minor, are just plain mean!

What about Prok 6th Sumphony in Ebmin mu ha ha! (not being a string player, I hope that little jib works in my favour )
I was always puzzled - the op.26 sonata has a variation in Abmin yet he doesn't alter the key signiature from the major and writes in all the accidentals.

[phil13]

According to my edition, that variation (Var. III, 1st mvt.) is written in Ab minor- 7 flats. Perhaps your edition is unusual? Or were you speaking of the autograph score?

Phil

[mikey6]

I just checked my Urtext and yes, it is in 7flats - it's my Schirmer that's in 4 but I wouldn't trust that a mile from Sunday!  Does anyone know what the autograph says?

[kriskicksass]

What about Prok 6th Sumphony in Ebmin mu ha ha! (not being a string player, I hope that little jib works in my favour )

I've never run into any Prokofiev that's nice to the string players. 

[pianistimo]

the fantasy in c minor  kv 475  has a lot of chromaticism in it.  would this count?  also, some of the earliest cadenzas were free form and didn't have measured measures.  this meant that not only chromaticism was at play - but also great rhythmic freedom.

i think Mozart was always a master.  just happened that he wanted - as has been said - to be able to transfer all this quickly, if necessary, to instrumentation.  i don't think he was incapable of writing in remote keys. 

also, in the sonata k 332 - we have in measure 25-26 a leap of a min 7th (c# to b-flat).  out in the open.  this is way before 20th century music here!  quite daring, i'd say.  so even if he doesn't use remote keys- he's still pushing the boundaries in other ways.  in the second movement of this same sonata - in the 7th measure - we have the min 7th again.  and, in the last movement at m 36 - there's a really inventive systematic downing from octave, to seventh, to sixth, to fifth to fourth to third - and then a m. 42 the opposite in the lh starting with G - a single note, to a second to a third ...

he was not scared to do anything.

[pianostanley]

As far as I know, Mozart composed a two-organ Fantasie in F minor and a piano trio in E!
I wouder if there isn't any pieces composed of more than 4 accidentals!

[pianistimo]

I guess even the magic flute (opera) is in the key of E and then A-flat.  hmm.  interesting observations you've made there.  perhaps his penchant for chromaticism kinda outweighed the excitement of remote keys.  after all, he was handwriting all this music.

[cygnusdei]

the fantasy in c minor  kv 475  has a lot of chromaticism in it.  would this count?  also, some of the earliest cadenzas were free form and didn't have measured measures.  this meant that not only chromaticism was at play - but also great rhythmic freedom.

i think Mozart was always a master.  just happened that he wanted - as has been said - to be able to transfer all this quickly, if necessary, to instrumentation.  i don't think he was incapable of writing in remote keys. 

also, in the sonata k 332 - we have in measure 25-26 a leap of a min 7th (c# to b-flat).  out in the open.  this is way before 20th century music here!  quite daring, i'd say.  so even if he doesn't use remote keys- he's still pushing the boundaries in other ways.  in the second movement of this same sonata - in the 7th measure - we have the min 7th again.  and, in the last movement at m 36 - there's a really inventive systematic downing from octave, to seventh, to sixth, to fifth to fourth to third - and then a m. 42 the opposite in the lh starting with G - a single note, to a second to a third ...

he was not scared to do anything.

The diminished seventh interval certainly was no novelty. Off the top of my head I think of themes of the fugue of the Bach Toccata in E minor, or the A minor Fugue from WTC II, the latter being similar to the 'And with His stripes' chorus from the Messiah.

[kriskicksass]

the fantasy in c minor  kv 475  has a lot of chromaticism in it.  would this count?  also, some of the earliest cadenzas were free form and didn't have measured measures.  this meant that not only chromaticism was at play - but also great rhythmic freedom.

As far as I'm concerned, the fantasies in c minor and d minor and his cadenzas don't count because they are written-out improvisations.

The only way I can think of to explain my rationale is that improvisation is like speaking and formal composition is like writing an essay. Both need to make sense, and eloquence is nice too, but in speech we make exceptions for grammar etc. because it's all coming out fresh, whereas in an essay we're expected to follow all the rules in order to make our points not only coherent and eloquent but also "correct."

I have no doubt that Mozart was able to write in remote keys, and I'm sure that he did modulate into those keys during his improvisations, as evidenced by the two that we have. But for some reason (which I've just decided was probably monetary), he decided to work his genius inside the bounds of classical "rules," at least during formal composition. Still, as pianistimo said, he wasn't afraid to make some daring moves while staying inside those rules.

Incidentally, if Mozart wrote a two-organ fantasy in f minor, then he was probably hitting on those remote keys, which makes me wonder about his tuning system. Does anyone know if Mozart used equal temperament? I would have thought that he used a form of well-temperament, but even in those systems such keys don't usually sound too great. Perhaps he was using the unusually dissonant keys for special effect? I wouldn't put it past him, considering how little he used the minor mode.

[cygnusdei]

For something daring check out the finale of Ein Musikalischer Spaß, K. 522.

[pianistimo]

yes.  the musical joke.  well, he would wouldn't he.  that was all because of a starling that sang two odd notes at a time.  one on pitch and one off.  or, should i say - one in key and one out of key.

kriskickass certainly fits his name.  an astute observation.  saving the remote keys for little touches here and there within the realm of reasonable horn playing.

according to one of my teachers - (and whomever brought it up here) - you have to go back to period instruments to hear the whole story.  (horns playing easier in some keys than others).

of course, improvising cadenzas was probably easier in known keys, too.  'most of haydn's keyboard music was intended for the harpsichord.  the later works of mozart were performed on the fortepiano.  however,  mozart's piano was not the modern piano.'  perhaps the black notes were really small.  and, of course, the range of the keyboard.  do you ever wonder if the black notes posed some sort of risk?  more possibility of breaking down during a performance.  maybe just getting stuck easier?

the k595 concerto goes into F minor and also B minor and E minor.  at measure 224 he pretends a Return - but uses a false dominant (that of the relative minor) and not of the major key of B-flat.  so, maybe instead of working out keys for subjects- he uses these remote keys for wandering - as kriskickass said. 

[pianistimo]

about temperaments.  i tend to think that mozart was so in love with what the violin and human voice could do - that equal temperament really didn't mean that much to him.  j. chestnut argues he used meantone temperament.
 
interesting observations, cygnusdei, too - i guess you're right that the minor 7th isn't unusual in itself.  only, when used for modulations.  to just go wherever- and yet - he always comes back to the home key and makes it sound perfectly natural.  like a magic scarf.

ps i've always thought when hearing a piece of mozart's for violin or voice - that it sounds so much better when headed towards the sharp side going up and flatting the notes slightly going down.