Practicing long pieces

[bernhard]

"Long time no see" here.
I just finished my debut recital on the 27th February. Phew!

Wow Bernhard, once again I'm impressed by your long and eloquent reply!
One question on performing sonatas. Would you eschew playing sonata single movements as encore pieces the same way you would in the proper programme?

Nice to see you back

Yes. I agree with Dinossaurtales. There are plenty of wonderful short pieces out there. A sonata should always be performed in its entirety (just my opinion, of course ).

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[bernhard]

Bernhard - do you spend most of your time on here?  You never seem to have a short simple answer.   

Really?
 

[cziffra]

Not sure if this is too old, but:

I totally disagree. I think it's much better to read through the piece to get your own idea of it, if possible without having heard any recording of it. That way you discover the piece by yourself instead of looking for the elements you know are there because you heard them in a recording. Generally if I'm working on a piece I try to avoid listening to any recordings of it before I've learned the notes and made some idea of what my interpretation of the piece will be like.

I used to think the same until i realised: the idea that your creativity will be crushed by listening to a cd is only a testament to your lack of creativity. 

I don't mean this personally- i mean to say that if you believe more in your ability to create something new, no matter how many different versions you have heard, you will be calling upon all your resources of originality and therefore working at your best.  Cutting off your "pool of knowledge" by not listening to cd's has the effect that you do not think as originally as you would have to if you've heard it alot before. 

[pianonut]

thank you for the reply, lostinidlewonder.  i got around to reading it today (forgot my posted question), and am practicing the nocturne by listening AND viewing it (coloring it the way you explained).

i am thinking about what bernhard said, too, about not rushing to a recital.  maybe i will postpone my desires to play in the late summer to a fall or spring recital that might have more music in it (and better performed). 

[maul]

I usually work on difficult sections first, then fill in the gaps. I get each hand down, then combine the two. I work at a slow speed at first to really get the technique, fingering, and phrasing down. Then I speed up. After a couple speed ups, everything falls in place and I begin to really understand the piece. It's all downhill from there.

I find it hard to believe that some members of this board can instantly play passages at the correct speed. In more complex pieces, this simply can't be done. Most of the time there is a lot of fingering to be learned, and your brain has to process all the new information you are giving it. You have to train your brain into playing the notes, and develop the proper technique. Usually, starting out slow and speeding up is the only way to properly accomplish this. Banging away new notes at super speed isn't a good way to learn, but whatever works for you I guess.

[xvimbi]

I usually work on difficult sections first, then fill in the gaps. I get each hand down, then combine the two. I work at a slow speed at first to really get the technique, fingering, and phrasing down. Then I speed up. After a couple speed ups, everything falls in place and I begin to really understand the piece. It's all downhill from there.

I find it hard to believe that some members of this board can instantly play passages at the correct speed. In more complex pieces, this simply can't be done. Most of the time there is a lot of fingering to be learned, and your brain has to process all the new information you are giving it. You have to train your brain into playing the notes, and develop the proper technique. Usually, starting out slow and speeding up is the only way to properly accomplish this. Banging away new notes at super speed will only hurt you in the long run, but whatever works for you I guess.

Not to disagree with what you said (after all if it works, it works), but it might be better to work out fingering and technique at full speed. Then go back to slow speed and use the SAME technique and fingering to get the piece into your head and muscles by playing in slow motion. This approach avoids bumping into speed walls that can arise when a section requires different techniques at different speeds.

[maul]

I think that the process of learning fingering and technique should start out slow and develop as you speed up. I've never ran into any barriers because once I have everything in my mind (all the phrasing, fingering, dynamics), it will naturally develop at full speed into how it should be. Sure, I'll play little passages at full speed here and there, because they are easy. I'm talking more about massive Rach 3 type pieces I guess, or pieces of higher difficulty. You can't just go in and say "Hey I'm going to play this at full speed!!". If you do, it will be a mess, and I can't see any benefit from it.

[xvimbi]

I think that the process of learning fingering and technique should start out slow and develop as you speed up. I've never ran into any barriers because once I have everything in my mind (all the phrasing, fingering, dynamics), it will naturally develop at full speed into how it should be. Sure, I'll play little passages at full speed here and there, because they are easy. I'm talking more about massive Rach 3 type pieces I guess, or pieces of higher difficulty. You can't just go in and say "Hey I'm going to play this at full speed!!". If you do, it will be a mess, and I can't see any benefit from it.

It doesn't matter if it's a mess at the beginning. This is only for figuring out the correct fingering and motions. Once these are determined, then I go back to slow speed and perfect the motions while speeding up.

You have never run into a speed wall? Congratulations! However, I would consider adapting technique and motions during speed-up inefficient. I have done this and found more often than I wanted to that I had to change my fingering and motions. Forgetting the old ones was a problem for me. I find it more efficient to determine the correct motions at the beginning (no matter how messy), instead of changing them continually. But that's just me.

[maul]

Sure, you could try to get correct fingering by playing something fast, but in most cases you can't. In advanced pieces, you'll be killing yourself trying to play things fast on the first try, and your fingering will be mashed and useless. You'll sit there forever working out fingering if you are playing it at full speed. I find it inefficient. I like to build a solid foundation with all the elements first, then all I have to worry about is speeding it up. Which really isn't hard at all since I have everything already in my mind. I rarely change fingering on speed up, and if I do, it's a quick fix. Just my opinion and how I do things.

[xvimbi]

Sure, you could try to get correct fingering by playing something fast, but in most cases you can't. In advanced pieces, you'll be killing yourself trying to play things fast on the first try, and your fingering will be mashed and useless. You'll sit there forever working out fingering if you are playing it at full speed. I find it inefficient. I like to build a solid foundation with all the elements first, then all I have to worry about is speeding it up. Which really isn't hard at all since I have everything already in my mind. I rarely change fingering on speed up, and if I do, it's a quick fix. Just my opinion and how I do things.

The best example is a simple scale fragment. If you play it slowly, you will most likely use the thumb-under technique. Now, when you speed up, you will reach a point where this does not work anymore and you will have to switch to the "thumb-over" technique. If you realize this readily and have no problems adjusting to that, go ahead. However, many people think they must speed up the initial technique (thumb-under) and will never make progress beyond a certain point or even injure themselves. And this is the simplest example. It doesn't even involve changing fingering at higher speeds, which is often enough necessary, compared to playing the same passage slowly.

Now, there is the other camp that says, play everything first at extremely fast speeds. This is possible, and it is not messy at all, because the chunks one should be working on for this method to succeed are very small, as small as two notes. Then one should slow down until one reaches the right speed. With this method, one will certainly not hit any speed walls.

I am personally using aspects from both approaches. I work out the technique at the final speed. Again, I'm not talking about playing through the entire piece, which will indeed sound awful. Then I practice in slow motion, which is completely different from "playing slowly."

One should be aware of all these approaches, their advatages and disadvantages, try them out and then use whatever works.

(I think we have hijacked this thread...)

[steinwayguy]

There aren't too many posters I agree with as often as I do with xvimbi.

[Steve T]

Bernhard - do you spend most of your time on here?  You never seem to have a short simple answer.   

Bernhard - please ignore this comment, I for one consider it a privilege to have the benefit of your (clearly) extensive experience. I'm sure I'm not the only person here who is grateful that you take the time and trouble to explain and teach things thoroughly. Please keep it up, it helps my playing and practice 

For anyone who disagrees, you'll find a very simple fingering pattern in your computer's manual which will show you how to 'scroll' down the page...it's most useful, and quick to learn...hands seperate at first 

[xvimbi]

There aren't too many posters I agree with as often as I do with xvimbi.

I can only hope that that's a good thing

[lagin]

 What is the "thumb over" technique?  I've never had it explained.

[dinosaurtales]

Yes, please explain it - It's been mentioned several times on this board without adequate explanation as to what it means.  Thumb over ........ what, exactly?  the whole hand?  I toss my thumb UNDER all of my fingers once in a while.

[bernhard]

Yes, please explain it - It's been mentioned several times on this board without adequate explanation as to what it means.  Thumb over ........ what, exactly?  the whole hand?  I toss my thumb UNDER all of my fingers once in a while.

Er...

Have a look here for a detailed explanation of TO:

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,3100.msg27113.html#msg27113
(thumb over – hand displacement – practising with awareness – awareness is not thinking – learning by imitation)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,7226.msg72166.html#msg72166
(replies #9 and 10 – Thumb over is a misnomer: it consists of co-ordinating four separate movements).

I hope this helps.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[dinosaurtales]

So really its just a basic hand position thing.  I guess I just do that stuff naturally.  Never thought about it as a "technique"

interesting

[doowlehc]

I am a newbie here... found this great post....and even though it is a bit old I like to add my 2 cents:

I am learning Scriabin's sonata #5 and Beethoven Appasionata.  What I do is I learn a section from the exposition, analyze it with the piano (i.e. memorize the harmony, melodies, intervals, texture etc,   play it on the piano and listen how it sounds).   Then I go to the recapitulation, find the 'equivalent' passage, notice that it has been transposed by say a perfect 5th.  So I transpose what I learned from the exposition upward a perfect 5th on the keyboard, without looking at the score - I need to do this extremely slowly since i am not good in transposition on the fly.  Then I check my 'result' with what is composed on paper in the recap.  I then realize there are lots of 'suprises' - such as a bar is dropped to intense the emotions, or notes has been added to intense the texture since it is a perfect 5th 'higher up' and sound 'thinner'. 
When I practise, I practise 'equivalent' passages side by side - it makes sense to me since they usually are musically very similar if not exact.  and they require the exact same technique.  It becaomse extremely easy to memorize a piece - just memorize once in exposition and you almost have memorized the recapitulation.


Similarly I do the same with development section - again extract what was from Exposition and see how the composers developed that theme.  then memorize the harmony, melodic alteration etc... right on keyboard.  find out how he transposed or modulated, then transpose myself on keyboard and then check back what the composer wrote - again you would find lots of 'surprises'.

This makes me find learning a piece extremely interesting - as if I am entering into the composer's mind and compose togetehr with him.

Of course you should only do this if you are in no rush to learn a piece - because you would be spending time analysing and transposing, and rechecking.  But once I learned the piece, I would not just have the piece "learned in the fingers", but I can explain pretty much every note in the composition - why the composers wrote that way.  and can identify any nuances in the composition.

[bernhard]

I am a newbie here... found this great post....and even though it is a bit old I like to add my 2 cents:

I am learning Scriabin's sonata #5 and Beethoven Appasionata.  What I do is I learn a section from the exposition, analyze it with the piano (i.e. memorize the harmony, melodies, intervals, texture etc,   play it on the piano and listen how it sounds).   Then I go to the recapitulation, find the 'equivalent' passage, notice that it has been transposed by say a perfect 5th.  So I transpose what I learned from the exposition upward a perfect 5th on the keyboard, without looking at the score - I need to do this extremely slowly since i am not good in transposition on the fly.  Then I check my 'result' with what is composed on paper in the recap.  I then realize there are lots of 'suprises' - such as a bar is dropped to intense the emotions, or notes has been added to intense the texture since it is a perfect 5th 'higher up' and sound 'thinner'. 
When I practise, I practise 'equivalent' passages side by side - it makes sense to me since they usually are musically very similar if not exact.  and they require the exact same technique.  It becaomse extremely easy to memorize a piece - just memorize once in exposition and you almost have memorized the recapitulation.


Similarly I do the same with development section - again extract what was from Exposition and see how the composers developed that theme.  then memorize the harmony, melodic alteration etc... right on keyboard.  find out how he transposed or modulated, then transpose myself on keyboard and then check back what the composer wrote - again you would find lots of 'surprises'.

This makes me find learning a piece extremely interesting - as if I am entering into the composer's mind and compose togetehr with him.

Of course you should only do this if you are in no rush to learn a piece - because you would be spending time analysing and transposing, and rechecking.  But once I learned the piece, I would not just have the piece "learned in the fingers", but I can explain pretty much every note in the composition - why the composers wrote that way.  and can identify any nuances in the composition.

This is a most excellent approach . I could not agree more. As Cooke once said: one should not remember a piece in order to know it, instead one should remember a piece because one knows it.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[johnnypiano]

 Go through the whole score.  One usually finds repetitions that don’t need to be practised.  DO THIS AWAY FROM THE PIANO (and on more than one occasion, which will reveal different connections each time) analysing where every bit fits with the rest. Try to hear the sounds.  (In a Bach Fugue, it is also a good way of working at the fingering).

Sight read through a couple of times only.

Do the hardest passage first.  If one intends to perform the whole piece there’s no point in suddenly coming across a part which is too hard. I did this with the F minor Ballade, practising the ferocious coda initially.  The rest of this gruelling piece was then not so bad. At College, to the amusement of my professor. I would always do the fugue before the Bach prelude.

Establish a fingering that works for the music and for you.

Practise a favourite bit first.

Practise, in bits, a section which is not so appealing; doing it in different ways to try and make it interesting.  Analyse where it fits into the whole piece.

These are a few of my favourite methods.

[Sergey R]

I for one consider it a privilege to have the benefit of your (clearly) extensive experience. I'm sure I'm not the only person here who is grateful that you take the time and trouble to explain and teach things thoroughly. Please keep it up, it helps my playing and practice 

I agree with you there Steve. Thankyou very much Bernhard. You've taught me so much...