structural analysis "gypsy rondo" (trio 1, G-major, haydn)

[monkeyyy]

UPDATE: replies are never useless since I'll learn from them, but I quit analysing this piece and choose another one, since more and more difficulties came up.

Hey, I’m currently trying to analyze Gipsy Rondo (structural analysis). It seemed easy to me at first but I’ve already got some problems, I hope you can help. Sorry for my English btw ;-).
For the sheet music I use here: https://www.sheetmusicarchive.net/compositions_b/hay_gypr.pdf (for my analysis I use the piano trio version btw ;-))
In de A section, after the “|:”, what is this section supposed to be? A modulating transitional passage perhaps? Because It seems to me that it modulates for a short time to D major (cadences I--IV--I, line 4, last bar & line 5), but I’m not sure.. And a transitional passage would be a bit weird since it ends with the same melody/key were it comes from, isn’t it?.. How do you call this phrase/sentence?
Second problem, In de first couplet, line 4 bar 6, the phrases seem to be 2 bars long instead of 4.. De cadences would be  therefore: V -- I -- V -- I -- V -- I -- V -- I. From the other side, such short phrases don’t  seem correct to me, because in the rest of the piece the phrases also sound a bit like they’re two bars long were they aren’t .But how do you then have to call the cadences? They can’t be all  “I” , there should be half cadences or a variant of that? I'm confused.. 
   

[pianistimo]

as i understand this gypsy rondo:

entire A section = 16 measures

m. 1-4 are in G major and go from I - V (ending on D major chord)

then, we have the gypsy element.  you go from a D major sound to a C major sound suddenly (excepting the G# - which also brings in a bit of an a minor sound at the same time).  anyways - you notice the peculiar C natural - which seems a bit odd if there is no C# in the key signature.  so - go with the flow and call it VI or vi (sort of pentatonic sound - C D E F#G#).  and the little bridge brings it back into G major with the 1/2 step accidental suddenly cancelled again. 

the gypsies liked to play with chromaticism.  so that's the gypsy element.  just doing something you're not supposed to with the harmony.  a sort of magic trick.

that's how i see the first part.

now - to properly analyze you have to count all the measures and refer to measure numbers when you speak of cadences.  that way - we are on the same 'page.'  as i see it - this 'A' section comes back many times.  the first thing you want to do is mark all the A sections.  then go back and put in the B, C, whatever.

[pianistimo]

look at the big sections first - if you want and see how it alternates between major and minor (at key changes).

but, then also - mark all the repeats of the A section

you can see that it repeats again at the end of measure 26 (two last pick up notes) and continues to m. 34. 

now, haydn seems to like taking this first A and B section and making hay with little motives.  usually he repeats the ideas for the A with little variants - and the B with larger variants.  also, turns the next whole section into a minor key.

he liked to start adding more measures (or taking some away ) like cutting and pasting - just for fun.  for instance - you start out with 8 measures - but the B part of the first section (gypsy violin getting carried away) is 9 measures.  haydn liked to make things not fit exact form molds.   

[pianistimo]

another interesting thing is that sometimes haydn does two things at once.  for instance - he doesn't only follow typical rondo form - but almost does a sonata thingy.  look at the last 17 measures and you see a sort of 'coda.'  he liked to tag little stuff to the end of the piece

and...he liked to do all  kinds of dramatic experiments to affect transitions by delaying them.

first - analyze the piece according to rondo form and then do it again on a much larger scale with sonata form.  as i see it - he was a sort of 'lets do everything all at once' composer. 

look for:

an intro  m. 17-34 is typical of another section in the dominant

expo - in some strange way - i see the piece actually starting at the first 'minore' section after being introduced slightly earlier in the introduction at m 35.

development - 'majore' and 'minore' sections

recap - 'majore'

coda

just for fun.

[pianistimo]

now, that i think about it.  skip the idea of the intro and just start the rondo with the idea that it starts at the expo directly and that it returns at m 144 at the 'maggiore' section.  or, keep the idea that the introduction is there - and assume that he was being creative when he recapulates on the themes of the introduction INSTEAD of the themes from 'intro.'  (that's my best bet!)

so - you have in effect - a rondo form superimposed upon a sonata form (without intro- necessarily)

[monkeyyy]

Thanks pianistimo, sounds interesting!

as i understand this gypsy rondo:

entire A section = 16 measures

hmm.. in my opinion the A section is from 1 - 34.? m17-m.26 are repeated the whole piece after (or should I say between) the, what you call, the A section. And since a rondo looks like something like ABACADA.. instead of ABCABDABEAB oid..I would include it in in the A section? Why do you think it doesn't? :-)

then, we have the gypsy element.  you go from a D major sound to a C major sound suddenly (excepting the G# - which also brings in a bit of an a minor sound at the same time).  anyways - you notice the peculiar C natural - which seems a bit odd if there is no C# in the key signature.  so - go with the flow and call it VI or vi (sort of pentatonic sound - C D E F#G#).  and the little bridge brings it back into G major with the 1/2 step accidental suddenly cancelled again. 

the gypsies liked to play with chromaticism.  so that's the gypsy element.  just doing something you're not supposed to with the harmony.  a sort of magic trick.

Thanks! I didn't knew much about the gypsy component.. not to say nothing. What I don't understand "call it VI or vi".. ?! You mean IV?  

"now - to properly analyze you have to count all the measures and refer to measure numbers when you speak of cadences.  .....in the B, C, whatever."

Oui, I'm working that way indeed. I didn't include measure numbers because I thought that would be easier for you all since the score doesn't contain m. numbers..

look for:

an intro  m. 17-34 is typical of another section in the dominant

..  I would say it has the most in common with  bar 4 - 6. with is also repeated in the minore section.

expo - in some strange way - i see the piece actually starting at the first 'minore' section after being introduced slightly earlier in the introduction at m 35.

hmmz.. Í'll think about that.  
and about the rest I didn't quote, I think It's very useful! Thanks!

[monkeyyy]

now, that i think about it.  skip the idea of the intro and just start the rondo with the idea that it starts at the expo directly and that it returns at m 144 at the 'maggiore' section.  or, keep the idea that the introduction is there - and assume that he was being creative when he recapulates on the themes of the introduction INSTEAD of the themes from 'intro.'  (that's my best bet!)

so - you have in effect - a rondo form superimposed upon a sonata form (without intro- necessarily)

oke, I think I indeed see it that way, I probably didn't really understand your sonata explanation, but I get it . (though I keep the idea of a coda, that's also common for a sonata-rondo)

[pianistimo]

just think of haydn as ADHD.  you'll get it as soon as you just 'go with the flow.'  he adds a coda to the end of his rondo and an intro to the beginning.  also, he delays cadences wherever he can.  so if you take a ruler and try to measure equal 8 measure phrases - you'll end up stabbing yourself with a pencil out of frustration. 

i think the 'introduction' is where he introduces all kinds of themes and ideas to get for both A and B C D themes throughout the rondo.  after you analyze the big stuff - look at the motives he starts using and highlight them from the intro -to whatever place they are used (with different color pencil).

as i see it - the 'intro' is the entire section up to the minore section.

if you look at the minore section as the true beginning - you see a gypsy step out onto the stage and play with all his guts.  look at the fz's that begin the entire start of the minore section.

what haydn is doing is STARTING the rondo - (not with 'intro' - but he recaps to it) with a variation.  surprise!  haydn is full of surprises.

[monkeyyy]

just think of haydn as ADHD.  you'll get it as soon as you just 'go with the flow.'  he adds a coda to the end of his rondo and an intro to the beginning.  also, he delays cadences wherever he can.  so if you take a ruler and try to measure equal 8 measure phrases - you'll end up stabbing yourself with a pencil out of frustration. 

i think the 'introduction' is where he introduces all kinds of themes and ideas to get for both A and B C D themes throughout the rondo.  after you analyze the big stuff - look at the motives he starts using and highlight them from the intro -to whatever place they are used (with different color pencil).

as i see it - the 'intro' is the entire section up to the minore section.

if you look at the minore section as the true beginning - you see a gypsy step out onto the stage and play with all his guts.  look at the fz's that begin the entire start of the minore section.

what haydn is doing is STARTING the rondo - (not with 'intro' - but he recaps to it) with a variation.  surprise!  haydn is full of surprises.

oke! Though, btw, in the chamber music version, there are more Fz's in m. 16-18. I think I skip the idea of an intro, because it's not explained to us that way, but thanks for the explanation.  I think I won't look at this this evening, tomorrow there's another day. Best wishes!

[pianistimo]

but, that part immediately goes to piano - whereas in the 'minore' section - it lasts a bit longer.

i don't blame you for taking your time and creating your own ideas for what you think the structure is, though.  it's very personal and probably 'what you hear.'  if you here the rondo form mostly -stick with that.  it's not too far off. it's just that haydn liked to expand on things and it seems a bit strange - (the opening) to analyze - but gets simpler later.

[monkeyyy]

oke, thanks. I'll work it out as a rondo form . No questions about this at the moment. Though I'm still a bit hesitating about the phrase length at page two, line 4, bar 6. Would you call for example m.51-52 a phrase and m.53-m.54  or m.51-54? The last option sounds the most logical to me at first, but then I can't find half cadences (<) or how this is called in English.

[monkeyyy]

hey,
though you said it probably would get easier, I found many more difficult passages. I spended a lot of time to try to solve those problems, but finally I decided to choose another piece because it didn't help much. I chose the 3rd movement of mozart's k.311, and I found out that this one looks much more at the examples we get in the lessons, which makes it much much easier . I've already analyzed a lot, so it goes well . I hope you don't mind, still thanks for the replies because it helped me really understanding everything .

[pianistimo]

sure!  haydn set out on his own path.