Could you consider yourself a good professional, if you know only ABC notation?

[lenkaolenka]

I was participating in many disputes with teachers about ABC and Solfeggio names of music notes.

At first, I tried to reason, but what I found out soon, that majority of piano teachers in USA,UK and Canada know only one language – ABC. Practically they are half educated.

I think, it is not good idea to speak about pros and cons of 2 systems, if you know only one and stick with it.

Solfeggio – is a foundation of music literacy. It is not Kodaly system – it has to be connected with notation, writing music by ear, sight-reading notes and ear training.

I think, nobody can consider himself or herself a professional without knowing the proper Solfeggio as well as ABC. Students have to ask their potential teachers: do they know Solfeggio fluently in order to make decision – to hire or not.

[chocolatedog]

So would you say that people who can't read music but who can improvise and play by ear phenomenally cannot be thought of as professional? What about jazz musicians? By your arguments you would class them as non-professionals, twice-over. And what about teachers who have the highest academic, performing and teaching qualifications? By your argument if they don't use Solfeggio, they're not professional!...... You seem to take delight in insulting the majority of hard-working, professional - yes! professional - teachers on this forum........

[lenkaolenka]

So would you say that people who can't read music but who can improvise and play by ear phenomenally cannot be thought of as professional? What about jazz musicians? By your arguments you would class them as non-professionals, twice-over. And what about teachers who have the highest academic, performing and teaching qualifications? By your argument if they don't use Solfeggio, they're not professional!...... You seem to take delight in insulting the majority of hard-working, professional - yes! professional - teachers on this forum........

Any profession has it's requirements. If piano teachers are self-employee, it does not mean that they are free of these criteria. In music universities in the USA you have to have Solfeggio. You won't get a diploma without passing this exam.

Music is not only a language - it is a written language. Any genre of this language could and should be written down. This way literate people learn how to get better! Jazz is not an exception. If you are professional Jazz player you ought to be literate.

One thing I can add about 'hard working professionals'
One young farmer was complaining to another that for several seasons  he was hard working man and plowing the fields with no rest, but didn't get any harvest
Old farmer answered: Did you plant any seeds afterwards?

The argument that 'hard working teachers' have playing students, even winners of piano competitions are not going to work! Prodigies learn the basics with help of their inborn talent. Show me the teacher who can teach average people and below average with no exception, who can teach groups of average kids how to play and read and I will say – that's it!

We also have an old Russian saying:
Why am I so poor? Because I am not smart. Why am I not smart? Because I am so poor.

If music teachers want to prosper and have better life and more students, they have to go to the roots of problem – not stay in comfort zone in denials. 

[brahms4me]

Any profession has it's requirements. If piano teachers are self-employee, it does not mean that they are free of these criteria. In music universities in the USA you have to have Solfeggio. You won't get a diploma without passing this exam.

Absolutely wrong!  Better check your facts, my dear.

[lenkaolenka]

Absolutely wrong!  Better check your facts, my dear.

Could you, please, be more specific?
 

[chocolatedog]

If you are a professional jazz player you ought to be literate

You have just condemned many of the jazz 'greats' in that ignorant statement of yours.........and also just condemned many people who struggle with literacy through dyslexia or even blindness in its many forms.....

[lenkaolenka]

The fact that some of great jazz musicians were unable to read the music score is not a proof that the modern professional jazz musician striving to get the best performance may allow himself to be musically illiterate. For many "greats" their inability to read music has been not a cause for pride but rather regrets from the lack of music education due to their poverty or ineffective teaching system in their childhood. When some jazz musicians claim that the music literacy can restrict somehow their improvisation and inventiveness, they only acknowledge their own ignorance. In music, as in any speaking language, its general development is closely related with the development of written forms. Any genre of music inevitably tends to simplifications and stops its development if not supported by writing.

The same way we can easily imagine a 18-century theater actor who could not read and write relying only on his memory, and can hardly believe that such an actor could find a theater contract today. Literacy for actors (and musicians) is not just the ability to read their roles, but a tool for professional development.

[counterpoint]

Could you consider yourself a good professional, if you know only ABC notation?


YES

[Kassaa]

The fact that some of great jazz musicians were unable to read the music score is not a proof that the modern professional jazz musician striving to get the best performance may allow himself to be musically illiterate. For many "greats" their inability to read music has been not a cause for pride but rather regrets from the lack of music education due to their poverty or ineffective teaching system in their childhood. When some jazz musicians claim that the music literacy can restrict somehow their improvisation and inventiveness, they only acknowledge their own ignorance. In music, as in any speaking language, its general development is closely related with the development of written forms. Any genre of music inevitably tends to simplifications and stops its development if not supported by writing.

The same way we can easily imagine a 18-century theater actor who could not read and write relying only on his memory, and can hardly believe that such an actor could find a theater contract today. Literacy for actors (and musicians) is not just the ability to read their roles, but a tool for professional development.

Literacy is not a requisite for creativity, therefore it's not necessary for a musician.

[brahms4me]

Kassaa - couldn't have said it better or more succinctly.  I know MANY great and professional jazz musicians and yes, even actors) who would be offended by these types of remarks and over generalizations.  These people are some of the best and finest musicians you could ever meet and they would further catagorize the "classical musician" as a snob of the highest caliber. 

These continual sweeping generalizations, offered as the ultimate last word, are so sad - yet, I'm not surprised by them.  I would like to think this poster is unaware of how she continually hurts and further alienates people by these kinds of remarks.  I wouldn't qualify this as a "teacher's attitude".

(btw:  I LOVE your signature line  )

[chocolatedog]

Kassaa - couldn't have said it better or more succinctly.  I know MANY great and professional jazz musicians and yes, even actors) who would be offended by these types of remarks and over generalizations.  These people are some of the best and finest musicians you could ever meet and they would further catagorize the "classical musician" as a snob of the highest caliber. 

These continual sweeping generalizations, offered as the ultimate last word, are so sad - yet, I'm not surprised by them.  I would like to think this poster is unaware of how she continually hurts and further alienates people by these kinds of remarks.  I wouldn't qualify this as a "teacher's attitude".

(btw:  I LOVE your signature line  )

And I like yours!!!!

[chocolatedog]

Oh and by the way, the oral/aural tradition was extremely strong BEFORE any music was written down.....thousands of books we have today were passed down from generation to generation by word of mouth only, and music was too.....it's writing things down which has actually killed the true spirit of music.........so in fact musicians who work entirely by ear and by rote are probably more "true" musicians........The written note stifles creativity and spontaneity...........

[brahms4me]

YES!!!!!!!!!!!  Well said.

[lenkaolenka]

So would you say that people who can't read music but who can improvise and play by ear phenomenally cannot be thought of as professional? What about jazz musicians? By your arguments you would class them as non-professionals, twice-over.

Well, as far as I understand – this is the place called 'Teaching'. Thus, we are talking about piano teachers – not performers. Let's separate this 2 groups, please.

  And what about teachers who have the highest academic, performing and teaching qualifications? By your argument if they don't use Solfeggio, they're not professional!......

Professional piano teacher is obliged to know 2 languages, because Solfeggio is essential part of music education worldwide. To say: I don't know Solfeggio and I am proud of it is the same as for doctor to say: 'I have no knowledge about physiology and I am proud of it!'. Teachers are free to use whichever language they consider more appropriate. This is fair. What is an absolutely inappropriate and unfair - when piano teacher argues in favor on one language over another, because they know only one language. In this case – these teachers are unprofessional hypocrite, who claims that they are acting in the best interest of student, but in fact aggressively defend their own ignorance.

  You seem to take delight in insulting the majority of hard-working, professional - yes! professional - teachers on this forum........

I take delight to share my knowledge with you. If my pure information is hurting your feelings, it is not my problem, I think. Knowledge and information the objects which belong to science and have no assault by default. 

[lenkaolenka]

You have just condemned many of the jazz 'greats' in that ignorant statement of yours.........and also just condemned many people who struggle with literacy through dyslexia or even blindness in its many forms.....

I am not condemning anyone!

I share with the fact, that literacy is an essential form of any language development, because when people had unwritten way to pass music from one generation to another, they had tendency to preserve the music the way it is.

When people created the most advanced way to write music down in 10th century, music as a language started to develop, because people had a chance to read and analyze previous creations.

Literacy is very important component for mind development, because people prefer to think in language that they fluently read .

For example, as a Russian immigrant I saw many children of Russian and Ukranian immigrants. Children, who never learned how read and write in language of their mothers, quickly lose to speak it, their vocabulary shrink.
Third generation of such people barely can put 2 words together.

Yes, we have talents and prodigies, we always had and always will have them! They can play, improvise and create their own music as much as they want. But if majority of people won't be able to remember more then 3-4 music notes wile listening, these musicians would play for themselves.

[chocolatedog]

Well, as far as I understand – this is the place called 'Teaching'. Thus, we are talking about piano teachers – not performers. Let's separate this 2 groups, please.
 

Professional piano teacher is obliged to know 2 languages, because Solfeggio is essential part of music education worldwide. To say: I don't know Solfeggio and I am proud of it is the same as for doctor to say: 'I have no knowledge about physiology and I am proud of it!'. Teachers are free to use whichever language they consider more appropriate. This is fair. What is an absolutely inappropriate and unfair - when piano teacher argues in favor on one language over another, because they know only one language. In this case – these teachers are unprofessional hypocrite, who claims that they are acting in the best interest of student, but in fact aggressively defend their own ignorance.
 

I take delight to share my knowledge with you. If my pure information is hurting your feelings, it is not my problem, I think. Knowledge and information the objects which belong to science and have no assault by default. 

So go join a science forum then............your only problem is what you say...........oh actually no, it's not what you say it's the way you say it.............

[lenkaolenka]

So go join a science forum then............your only problem is what you say...........oh actually no, it's not what you say it's the way you say it.............

Thank you!
If I would need a good adviser, I would definetely hire you!

[futureconcertpianist]

Hello,

I am a professional piano teacher, that is, I get paid to share my knowledge about how to play the piano, people come to me for lessons I dont go to them.
I dont know solfeg, but I do know how to train perfect pitch.
You see the problem here is, we are always learning, no matter how much you learn there will always be more to learn, and you are saying that you cannot get paid to teach without knowing something.
Well I teach what I do know, I dont teach what I dont know, my students are happy learning from me, I am happy to share the information I do know, it is a win win situation.
Also what would you do in my situation, teach piano part time so that I can go to university and further my knowledge, or work at a low paying KFC job where I honestly cannot feel happy working? I am happy teaching piano, playing piano, it is my purpose, and if someone out there wants to do what I do, that is play piano to a reasonable standard, even if I was only an intermediate pianist and people still want to be able to play piano like that, this intermediate pianist can teach what he or she knows.
this is the thing I dislike about so called educators, they like to catagorize everything into nice little boxes and say to be so and so you have to know this and that, ummm where is the fun in learning for what you are required to know because someone tells you? I learn the most from seeking knowledge from my passion and curiosity, and my students are the same, and I give them the knowledge they want to know they are obviously seeking people. I will be learning Solfege in the final semester of my degree anyway. But what good is solfege if my students have developed both interval pitch and perfect pitch?

from FutureConcertPianist....

[pianowelsh]

Perhaps a more sensative way to begin this discussion would have been looking into the benefits and pros and cons of Solfeggio and working out from there whether it really is something all professional musicians need to be with. To label half the professional world as 'unprofessional' or 'half educated' is honestly asking for trouble Lenka. I would strongly suggest that you begin another thread along the lines of 'Solfeggio discussed' and see if you get some honest discussion rather than irrate name bashing... No offence to anyone involved.  I appreciate this isnt your first language and that you feel passionately about these things BUT this is a forum and the langurage you use must be tempered a little bit of you want serious disscussion Lenka.

I personally didnt grow up with Solfeggio although privately I have made some initally forays into it. It is certainly not a requirement to obtaina degree in the UK although I know in Japan and China and of course France many of the National conservatoires set it as compulsary classes. Many of the Uk's junior colleges and music schools also teach it. However graduating alongside others who had studied it 8-10 years I saw no practical differences in our musical competancy.

[timothy42b]

Perhaps a more sensative way to begin this discussion would have been looking into the benefits and pros and cons of Solfeggio and working out from there whether it really is something all professional musicians need to be with.

That is an excellent suggestion.  Clearly teachers need to know solfeggio if (but only if) their students need to learn it.  It is not obvious that it is of any benefit to the average student.  Certainly there are many types of students, one small category being those who go on to music conservatories.  Probably they need to learn it, if only so they can later teach it! 

I would find a discussion of the benefits very interesting. 

[will]

I dont know solfeg, but I do know how to train perfect pitch.

futureconcertpianist - care to elaborate on your perfect pitch training methods?
If you create a new topic on training PP it would probably generate some interesting discussion.

[futureconcertpianist]

Hello,

You just get the students to close their eyes and to reach out and play any note and really to listen deeply into the note then guess the note and open their eyes and see how close they were and correct themselves just at the start of each lesson, instruct them to do this before each practise session, eventually they will start to recognize sounds and start to get some notes correct. What is happening is they are learning to hear the harmonics above the notes which are actually a different shape for each note on the piano (or on any instrument) so you can then learn to differentiate them.

Future. (I dont wanna talk about this more because it is so simple that is all I have to say, however you can copy and paste this to another area if you wanna start a PP topic)

[stevehopwood]

Show me the teacher who can teach average people and below average with no exception, who can teach groups of average kids how to play and read and I will say – that's it!

That's me. Most of the kids I have taught throughout my career have been average; quite a lot have been below average. I do not use Solfege. I studied it at music college (UK, Royal Northern College of Music) and could not see the relevance of it to piano playing. It seemed to me to be merely a way of helping us pass those pointless aural tests that are so beloved of music educational institutions.

lenkaolenka, someone adopting an extreme position such as yours quickly looks foolish. That person soon comes across as arrogant. Just because you hold an idea to be a self-evident truth does not mean it actually is one.

 

[Bob]

Dumb question.... Is lenka now known as musicrebel?

[Essyne]

Why the accusations around here?

Sorry, it's just something that bothered me when I first got here. Apparently I'm m1469/goldentone/ K. . . . . oh, and we can't forget - SUSAN.

*shakes head* I could never be that devout. 

[keypeg]

If you were all those people you would have to be a superb writer capable of creating life-like characters each with its own writing style, vocabulary, and personality.   
Funny question that begins this thread though: is your teacher bilingual with ABC's and non movable do solfege (as well as movable) ... actually, yup, anyone who has taught me so far has been.  It's not such a rarity after all whether or not it matters.

[Essyne]

If you were all those people you would have to be a superb writer capable of creating life-like characters each with its own writing style, vocabulary, and personality.   

Do you DOUBT me?

[Bob]

I remember seeing the lenka-o-lenka name when I was browsing around musicrebel's site.

[pianowolfi]

Why the accusations around here?

Sorry, it's just something that bothered me when I first got here. Apparently I'm m1469/goldentone/ K. . . . . oh, and we can't forget - SUSAN.

*shakes head* I could never be that devout. 

Indeed the different identities on this board are very annoying. On the other hand, if you follow the threads, it gets quite obvious who is who. For a while I found it funny to find out. I even thought if I should start new under a different username. I decided not to. I got so often accused to be somebody else when I wasn't, and now it's just something that I find very disgusting, distracting and dishonest. And, theoretically it's also against the forum rules.

[musicrebel4u]

I remember seeing the lenka-o-lenka name when I was browsing around musicrebel's site.

Indeed the different identities on this board are very annoying. On the other hand, if you follow the threads, it gets quite obvious who is who. For a while I found it funny to find out. I even thought if I should start new under a different username. I decided not to. I got so often accused to be somebody else when I wasn't, and now it's just something that I find very disgusting, distracting and dishonest. And, theoretically it's also against the forum rules.

And now here is my secret, a very simple secret; it is only with the heart that one can see rightly, what is essential is invisible to the eye.

Antoine de Saint-Exupery

[keypeg]

My favourite writer!  What was in the boa constrictor?  A hat?   

[slobone]

My favourite writer!  What was in the boa constrictor?  A hat?   

lenkaolenka apparently.

[keypeg]

Whatever was in the snake was the Prince's favourite thing.    

[seicinta]

In my book it's unnecessary to have a debate about what method is better, ABC or solfeggio. For me they are complementary. Solfeggio helps a lot to understand how the melody works in a piece and to develop a good ear. It can even help to develop absolute pitch. ABC helps a lot to understand how the harmony works in a piece. For instance all the chord symbols in Jazz and pop relate to this. As with all methods the question is how you apply it to your teaching. I disagree with lenkaolenka/musicrebel when she claims that somebody who knows "only" ABC system is half-educated. All the really professional teachers know that the best method is your own which comes from so many different teachers and classes. If you have so many tools you can work better with every particular student. We know that not all the students learn in the same way. As teachers we need first to know how they learn. And then we can search in our "toolbox" what is the best "tool".

[keypeg]

Behind the question there is the background of two entirely different schooling systems of two broad geographic regions.  The differences go deep and are not that obvious.  Unless that's known this is apples and oranges.  The question is not fair, since the author does know about these differences.

I got taught by someone of the one system, had a kind of "audial system" of my very own since I was totally uneducated musically for decades, messed myself up in physical playing (not piano) by following on-line stuff from the other system.  In extricating myself from that and getting to the bottom of it, I eventually discovered that there were two.

The solfege that Lenkaolenka was taught is not the solfege that is taught here.  Ditto for how.  I honestly don't think a dialogue is possible on that level.  In any case the question is a vehicle toward the software --- the software, in turn, is engendered in part because of the original history of the two geographically based schools and philosophies.  That gets too convoluted to discuss.

The bottom line is that both relativity and pitch has to be in our awareness at some level.

[johnk]

To me, a "professional" pianist-musician has an ability to hear tonal melody and chord progressions as degrees of the scale, and is able to apply this to the keyboard in any of the 12 keys. Thus if a singer said do you know (pick a familiar tune), and wants it in a certain key, you could play it by ear. They are also adept at reading tonal chord progressions in any of the keys, but not necessarily able to transpose when sight reading. No singer would expect an accompanist to transpose a song they were not aurally familiar with at sight. However if it was fairly tonal, you should be able to look at the music and hear it in your head, and thus given a bit of time to prepare , could play it an another key because of being aware of the scale degees of the melody and the relative chord progressions.

I think relative solfege is more useful to develop these skills. My colleague Lena, who has a similar music school Ukraine background to Lenka (Hellena / Musicrebel), has been converted to relative solfa and now uses my degree cards in her piano teaching. I dont think there is evidence that one training system produces observably more "professional" musicians.

[musicrebel4u]

I dont think there is evidence that one training system produces observably more "professional" musicians.

Of cause there is the evidence! Russian school of music produces the most professional musicians! Everybody knows that! ANY music college graduate is capable to write pretty advanced music dictations of 1, 2 and 3 voices. They have very advanced ear.

Relative system was created for illiterate choir members to sing songs with notes. This approach has nothing to do with music sight reading.

However, speech memory is one of the most important poins of support in any liearning and memorizing any music piece: to sing and play pieces in different keys drastically develop ear and music memory and promote professional perfect pitch

[tatianas]

That's a very good topic...
I was musically educated in France, so I was only taught the Solfeggio names of music notes. Now I live in the US. I took some piano classes with a private teacher. I had to learn the ABC notation which is a bit hard. When I see a note, the Solfeggio name comes first to my mind. I master now the ABC notation, but it is not the "normal" way to name the notes to me. I was lucky enough that my teacher was from eastern Europe and would use both notations for me.

I was just wondering how do you sing the notes when you only know the ABC notation??

[Bob]

I learned the letter names.  Then in college I was introduced to solfege. 

If you don't know solfege, you can sing after hearing the notes.  I wasn't aware of sight-singing until college. 

Although, there is fixed do solfege.  If you can do that, I don't see how that's much different than using letters, except for having to say more than one syllable.

[lostinidlewonder]

When you study written music you really don't consider the name of the note when sight reading, that would be information overload. Nor would you consider each individual sound in solfege.

As a matter of reference and pattern recognition of entire phrases we use letters and as more logical basis to describe our observations rather than solfege. So I do not see the application of solfege unless you are teaching little children the early basics about music. Even then we should not be expected to do acrobatics with solfege but rather be able to simply sing up the scale in it.

Why should we have to put a word with a particular sound? Why can't we just say random gibberish? The words themselves have no force. You do not need to hear a note on a piano and be able to categorize it as a specific word or letter only by using your ear. I do not see the application of this ability when studying music.

What is important however is to be able to estimate what the sound of a key we play on the piano will sound like. This often important as a memory support of our pieces. We may forget what we have to play but remember by sighting the note on the keyboard and hearing it before we play it so we can guide ourselves to that note. That is an important application of sound knowledge with your instrument.

[Bob]

It's supposed to make it easier to put a word syllable with a sound.  Helps the memory.  The monaks, Guidonian hand, and all that.

I find it useful.  Maybe it's just one sound for the melody, but the chords you can hear as one sound too.  I wish I could use it better.