Learning with the easiest or the hardest ?

[menuet]

First of all, greatings to the forum.

It's my very firts post, and I have to thanks all the people in here for the very valuable experience they provide with their messages.
I also have to appologize for my poor english (I'm from France, nobody's perfect ;-))

So, straight to the question :
I've been studying the piano for now 2 years with a very skilled pianist teacher (maybe way to skilled for me, wich may be frustrating from time to time). I'm working (average) 1 hour a day.

My teacher never really tells me what I am suppose to play next (he will just go to the next page of a book), and often wait for me to propose scores to say if it's ok or not.

Here, I'm torned between getting a "hard score" that I will definitely "love", or an "ok score" that will be playable.

There, my teacher often say "well, it depends on what you expect to get from this score" (meaning I won't really play it well, but if i'm happy with this, it's ok).

What do you guys think ?

Should I work on easy scores for several years, keeping in my I'll do better in the future, or should I try working on "hard" scores that will bring the pleasure on even if I won't get them "right" for now ?

Thx for reading !

PS: Right now I'm working on a Bach 3 voices fugue in "little prelude & fugues", a Czerny etude (little school of velocity I think, don't remember it's number) and Chopin Op 55 N 1 Nocturne (way to hard, but I got it from christmas :-)).

[molto-marcato]

Hi menuet,

first of all i think a Fuga a 3 voci and a chopin nocturne after two years is quite good for a beginner. I think that you have a good and demanding teacher can only be beneficial.

For me i always work in two directions: I usually use to work on pieces that are well one or two grades above my "current level", if you can say so. This way i'm going to improve my technique and maybe my persitence (currently working 3h a day at the piano).

On the other hand i always include pieces that are fairly easy to me, 1 or two grades below my level, because that way i improve sight reading, memorizing and increase my repertoire more quickly. But the most important thing for me is that i can instantly focus on musical issues (phrasing, accentuation, dynamics,.....) because i don't need to focus that much on technique.

As a matter of fact it seems i never start working on pieces that represent my current level  .

[nsvppp]

Hello Menuet,

Welcome to the piano street forum.

I'm sorry I can not expertly answer your question, because I am dealing with the same problem. But I can tell you that I mix both kinds of pieces. Once in a while a very hard piece, with which I try to play to the notes, but could not perform in years and at the same time more easy pieces, with which I can work on "performance skills". They are not meant to perform to others but to learn the piece more in depth.

He, at the same time molto-marcato was writing the same.

best wishes
nsvppp

[menuet]

Thank you both for your replies.

first of all i think a Fuga a 3 voci and a chopin nocturne after two years is quite good for a beginner

Well, I used to play the piano when I was a kid (but I've never study it seriously) [I'm 30]. It's more a "new beginning". (let's face the truth thought, I won't be able to "perform" the nocturne before a long time)

I think that you have a good and demanding teacher can only be beneficial.

I'm really happy with my teacher, he always have lots of explanations and exercices related to the music I'm playing. In fact, I think I could never haved really understood what piano was about without his help.

(or years, years, years after)

It's just that sometimes, I'm wondering if the time & efforts spent in just two bars are worth it, or at least could have been spent elsewhere... (I do know the answer to this, is definitely YES, it's just that piano takes patience)

---

Well, I think I'm gonna keep doing what you're telling me, easy pieces for performing issues and hard ones for techniques / pleasure of trying / motivation.

Thx again for your advices.

[elisianna]

Sounds like you are doing pretty good for two years.  Hahaha

My teacher pushes me beyond my level.  I try to practice for 5 hours a day.  I've been playing for just over three years and he wants me to memorize all of Brahms Op. 118.  (Of course I don't think I'm good enough to play that stuff very well... but he pushes me anyway...)

I think your teacher should push you to make the best of your abilities. (Of course you cannot control your teacher and make them push you... haha)

It's hard to say, because I don't know how hard the hard score is for you.  I'd suggest practicing more if you want to accomplish things faster.  You'll have to practice something difficult differently than something easier.

  I would say go for the harder one.  Even if you end up playing some, and then eventually dropping it for awhile you will have gone way above your current level.  You will be better at playing, and will be able to play more difficult things than if you had just progressed more slowly with easier pieces.  For example last year in the months before the piano exam my teacher had me playing pieces that were one or two grade levels above my current level.  I didn't finish the ones that were two levels, but the one that was one I played fairly well.  After that, the pieces at my level felt SO much easier!

[aaron_ginn]

menuet,

Let me give you a different perspective from a beginner.  I've been playing since last June.  Here are the pieces I've worked on (in order) since I started playing:

1) Moonlight sonata mvt 1
2) Maple Leaf Rag
3) Moonlight sonata mvt 3 (I know, I know!!!)
4) Bach Two-part Invention 4
5) Schumann Album for the Young (Op 68. No. 1) - probably the only beginner piece here
6) Chopin Nocturne in B-flat minor (Op. 9 No. 1)
7) Chopin Mazurka in C-sharp minor (Op. 6 No. 2)

Here are the results as they stand:

1) I can play all of this but I have not touched it in a few months.  It would probably take me a week to get it back.

2) I can play about 80% of this but I haven't played it since November.  A week of intense practice would get it back.

3) I could play about 20% decently after several months of practice, but I finally gave up.  This is the only piece I can say was too much, too soon.  Those two-handed C-sharp arpeggios were simply too difficult for me.

4) This work drives me crazy.  I can play it well maybe one out of five times I play it.  The other times my fingers self-destruct somewhere.  I don't practice it very diligently anymore simply because I don't see as much progress as with other pieces.  I have immense respect for those who can play Bach well.  I didn't realize how truly difficult his works are to play.

5) This is the only piece here that I really should be able to knock out.  The problem is that it's simply boring after playing some of the more complex works listed here.  I don't really have a desire to play it well and I won't be particularly proud to play it for anyone.  It's probably why I haven't finished it yet and don't feel compelled to do so.

6) This work is graded level 8 but it has come easier to me than any other work here (except the Schumann).  I have one measure left that I need to knock out and the dynamics and tempo are still a work in progress, but I can play this piece well enough to play in an informal, public setting.  I'm surprised how well it's coming along since I've only been playing it since November.

7) I just started working on this last week.  It's coming along nicely.  I anticipate being able to play the whole thing by the end of next month.  Maybe I just have a knack for Chopin.  I don't know.

I don't really take formal lessons, I'm mainly self-taught (using Chang's book as a guide).  I do have a friend who is a piano teacher who has given me four informal lessons over the past few months, mainly to work out problems with my technique.  It has helped quite a bit with relaxation problems. 

My feeling is that tackling pieces way over my head has done wonders for me, much mor e so than playing "Twinkle, twinkle little star" ever would have done.  I'm convinced I would have completely lost interest in playing if I started simple pieces and worked my way up.  It has required an immense amount of patience (for example, an hour a day for four months to play the Maple Leaf Rag), but things are getting much easier for me as I go along.  I'm 36 years old and my goal has never been to learn to sight-read music or sit down and improvise a song.  My goal has always been to pick out a few pieces I love that I will never tire of playing, memorize them and learn to play them.  It's working well for me.  I know this is an unorthodox method of learning and I've drawn scorn from several posters here for it, but I'm having fun and it's working for me.

Good luck!

[menuet]

I try to practice for 5 hours a day.

I can't afford that a time of practicing, unfortunately.

I've been playing for just over three years and he wants me to memorize all of Brahms Op. 118. 

Considering my level, I don't even expect to work on thoose (maybe I'm wrong but it sounds very difficult), and that would be a "year project" to get thoose on notes..... (There are 6 of them, that's 2 month each, sounds something quite challenging for me.

It's hard to say, because I don't know how hard the hard score is for you.

I would say Grade 4 is ok, 5 requires some work, 6 is a challenge, more is for the sake of the fun.

  I'd suggest practicing more if you want to accomplish things faster. 

I can't really expect more practicing time..... even if I should consider an hour of extra work in the morning before to go to work.

Thx for your advices.

[aaron_ginn]

I can't afford that a time of practicing, unfortunately.

Who can?  Other than professional musicians and students, or course.  Some of the posters on this board live in another world from the rest of us.

Have you looked at Chang's book, BTW?  It's a revelation, IMO.

https://members.aol.com/chang8828/contents.htm

[menuet]

....
1) Moonlight sonata mvt 1, Maple Leaf Rag, Moonlight sonata mvt 3 (I know, I know!!!), Bach Two-part Invention 4, Schumann Album for the Young (Op 68. No. 1) - probably the only beginner piece here, Chopin Nocturne in B-flat minor (Op. 9 No. 1), Chopin Mazurka in C-sharp minor (Op. 6 No. 2)

Hi aaron & thx for your input.

Here are my thoughts on your list (for me) and what my teacher said (would say) [don't forget he's a conservatory teacher] :
1) He said "well, you are not ready for this one, let's wait a while since you can really play and understand it".
2) (I don't really like this one, so i won't give it a try unless I have to)
3) He would say "don't even think about it"  (he said that for the Chopin etudes)
4) We're gonna start thoose next year or so. Before that we'll work on 3 voices fugues.
5) That I did a lot :-) He made me buy this book.
6) Not yet, maybe in two years.
7) I don't know this one, so I cannot tell.

My feeling is that tackling pieces way over my head has done wonders for me, much mor e so than playing "Twinkle, twinkle little star" ever would have done

That's my actual problem. I'm kind of bored of "twinkle twinkle". But it seems it's needed to practice fundamentals. Mixing it with other pieces seems to be the solution.

Have you looked at Chang's book, BTW?  It's a revelation, IMO.

Yep I did..... Bernhard's posts either :-)

Thx again, really glad to share thoughts with other pianists (even if I still don't call myself a pianist).

[molto-marcato]

Please note that Changs book is at least a controversial topic.

Your teachers statements seem reasonable.

@Aaron: It is very impressive to see you make such fast development especially being self taught. I would highly suggest getting yourself a teacher. I think i saw your vid. of chopin 9.1, and of yourse you got all the notes, BUT there was a lack of musicality. This is something which imo is really hard to learn without a teacher. This exactly is the reason why you find the Schumann piece so dull. You have to play with the tone, pay attention to phrasing, dynamics, accentuation, and so on. In order to learn this you should stick to the "easier" pieces, at least this is what i'm doing and my teacher was highliy suggesting this approach.

Regards

[aaron_ginn]

Please note that Changs book is at least a controversial topic.

Your teachers statements seem reasonable.

@Aaron: It is very impressive to see you make such fast development especially being self taught. I would highly suggest getting yourself a teacher. I think i saw your vid. of chopin 9.1, and of yourse you got all the notes, BUT there was a lack of musicality. This is something which imo is really hard to learn without a teacher. This exactly is the reason why you find the Schumann piece so dull. You have to play with the tone, pay attention to phrasing, dynamics, accentuation, and so on. In order to learn this you should stick to the "easier" pieces, at least this is what i'm doing and my teacher was highliy suggesting this approach.

Regards

molto-marcato,

Thanks, and you're absolutely correct on my needing to work on the musicality of the Chopin 9/1.  I've been working on it and am playing the piece much more freely than before.  Part of the problem was that I was still not familiar enough with the music that I wasn't able to play the notes on autopilot yet.  My total focus was on playing the notes all correctly such that I had little concentration left to focus on the way the piece felt.  As I continue to play the piece over and over again, things are becoming much more automatic.  I'm planning on videotaping myself playing this again in a week or two.  I think you'll agree that I've made quite a bit of progress in this area when you see the next video.

BTW, I did have a lesson this week with my friend and she gave me an exercise to address some of the issues I had regarding relaxation.  I can already feel a difference in the way I'm playing after four days.

[molto-marcato]

Looking forward to your recording 

Regards