How much tension in your forearms?

[aragonaise]

I am mainly self-taught, and have began to play pieces like Chopin's Ballade in G minor and Fantasie Impromptu, but I am encountering difficulties in getting the notes right at speed. So I found myself a teacher.

She immediately pointed out the fact that I have too much tension in my forearms. She said the playing forearm should have so little tension that if one pulls the pianists arms, they would easily give away with no resistance. And as she proceeded to pull my arms as I played, they involuntarily recoil due to the tensions.

She went so far as to state that my playing problems could be solved if I can eliminate ALL tensions in my forearm. I find the idea of playing without any tension in the forearm extremely alien. How can one exact strength on the keyboard without any forearm tension? When playing fast passages,surely the forearm needs some structure instead of swaying like the wind?

So, my question to you, how much forearm tension do you hold when playing, especially con fuoco agitato parts)?

thanks for any reply.

[counterpoint]

The problem is, that tension is something static.  If your muscles are tense, you will not be able to play fast and with exact movements. You need fast reflexes - which come out of relaxed muscles. I think, your teacher is absolutely right, that you should play as relaxed as possible.

[counterpoint]

I have to add something for clarification:

in pieces marked grave or pesante, I do play indeed with much tension. This tension is not only in the forearm but in the whole body. It's the feeling like lifting something of great weight, it's almost complete virtual, because it would be very easy to play these pieces with very little power and effort. For example Bydlo from Pix of an Exhibition. You don't need the power for playing loud, but you need it for playing raw and rugged.

[ramseytheii]

The problem is, that tension is something static.  If your muscles are tense, you will not be able to play fast and with exact movements. You need fast reflexes - which come out of relaxed muscles. I think, your teacher is absolutely right, that you should play as relaxed as possible.

I thought, this is such a fantastic, concise, and perfect post, I was so pleased.  Then I saw your next one and thought, HUH?!  It's the old argument dating back to C.P.E. Bach - does your body have to experience what the music is expressing.

My answer is a resounding No.  Perhaps this was true in the days of C.P.E. Bach, whose music required a virtuosity which to us today is very limited. 

Sometimes the music and the feeling would seem to match up: for instance when you have to play fast fleeting passages, there can't be any weight in your arm, it has to also float.  But to suggest playing a pesante passage with a heavy body is crossing the line I think.  Ultimately any playing is for the ear, and the ear has to experience it as pesante, not the body.

Anyways, tension in this case as a static thing - what a wonderful idea.  The feeling you are searching for, original psoter, though, is weight and its varying degrees.  I get the impression that you actually have a native sense of how to play piano well, because you are trying to identify a feeling in words that you already know without having achieved it apparently.  And that is that the arm can be weighed down in various degrees, to affect the sound and touch of a performance.  I imagine that you know this subconciously, but don't know how to inact it, so you substitute tension for weight.

As a remedy, I would concentrate not on the forearm but the elbow.  The elbow has to be able to move in two directions, clockwise and counter-clockwise, never straight across, parallel to th ekeyboard.  If the forearm is tense, the elbow will move straight across parallel to the keyboard, and that's wrong.  But don't try and fix this problem from the forearm; try and fix it from the elbow, because it is the elbow that moves, not the forearm.

Walter Ramsey

[counterpoint]

I thought, this is such a fantastic, concise, and perfect post, I was so pleased.  Then I saw your next one and thought, HUH?!  It's the old argument dating back to C.P.E. Bach - does your body have to experience what the music is expressing.

My answer is a resounding No.  Perhaps this was true in the days of C.P.E. Bach, whose music required a virtuosity which to us today is very limited. 

Dear Walter,

yes, I'm absolutely sure, that you have to be in a special sort of tension to let the music sound raw and rugged, as I said in my second post. We don't need this often, since most music should not sound raw and rugged. But some do.

Yes, you are right, the weight of the arms is very important. Sometimes it's better to play leggiero without any armweight (that's the feeling, you have, but the physical weight of the arm is always the same, so there must be something, which takes the weight away.) Sometimes you need a full opera-like voice, that's played with "heavy" arms and relaxed fingers and wrist. Sometimes you need aggressive sound - that's not possible with relaxed fingers, believe me.

Of course you can play Bydlo with almost completely relaxed muscles. But it will not sound as it's intended by Moussorgsky.

I didn't know, that CPE said these things too, but if he did so, it's because it is a natural thing, that you have to be in a special mood (which includes tension) to be able to express this mood in your playing. If you play joyous music, you have to feel joyous - if you play music of fear, anger or depression, you have to be fearful or angry or depressed for this moment.

[danny elfboy]

She went so far as to state that my playing problems could be solved if I can eliminate ALL tensions in my forearm. I find the idea of playing without any tension in the forearm extremely alien. How can one exact strength on the keyboard without any forearm tension? When playing fast passages,surely the forearm needs some structure instead of swaying like the wind?

Well ... you need no strength to play the piano with power
Since the bed of the keys limits how much you can push down the keys, there's no difference betweem the landing on the keys of something as heavy as a bodybuilder arm and something so light as a young child arm

If you read a bit about the anatomy of the arm (and the fact that they connect at the back and the muscles of the back) you'll also find out there's no way a tensed arm exherts more power than a relaxed arm

The point is that even if you want to sound grave and pesante, making your arms tensed will not allow a "grave and pesante" sound that relaxed arms can't achieve

The first question should be.
Why do you think you play with more power when your arms are tensed?
If the answer is because "they weigh more" then think again about the limit of the keys bed

If the answer is strength then think again. Relaxation achieves way more strength then tension. This is a well known fact in martial arts. Tension actually decrease strength because of the slowing-down of blood-flow and neuromuscolar impulses

The solution to your dilemma is understanding the difference between static muscular activity vs. dynamic muscular activity.

First of all forearm tension has no effect in your playing if not decreasing the fingers movements. The fingers move thanks to the arm muscles to which are connected by long and fragile tendons. So if you tense your arms the movements of the fingers are reduced by a 70%.

Contraction is another story.
Fingers conctraction (because of the tendons links) doesn't start in the forearms but in the torso

The structure of the movement of your arm is like a long road starting at your fingertips and going up to the forearm, upper arm, shoulder blade and torso

The activity in this "road" (as you play) must be perpetual

Your playing is achieved by the "effect of gravity" in conjuction with the "dynamic muscolar activity"

Take advantage of this two physical and anatomical phenomena and you can be 8 years old having tiny frail arms and still play with the same power of a 6.4 feet bodybuilder man while still keeping your arms absolutely relaxed (as your teacher said: if pulled they have to easily give away with no resistance)

To take advantage of the gravity you must sit at an height so that the top of the white keys is level with the tip of your elbows when in playing position (you need a friend telling you, you can't turn around and see yourself)
Proper Sitting

In this position you must consider your playing as a perpetual continuum of "small raising" and "small falling" of the forearm

At the fraction of a second you hit the keys you allow an instantaneous "contraction" to allow the weight to be trasferred from the torso to the arms and hands. Immediately after you allow an instantaneous release so as to send back the weight from the hands to the torso. The contration is so short and the release follows so quickly that there's no  TENSION at all
This quick "activity" contraction-release contration-release contration-release is a "dynamic muscolar activity" and it's the opposite of the "static muscolar activity" which is the cause of hand injuries and tendonitis (not to mention unefficient movement. The secret to virtuosity is suppleness and easy movements)

A contration allows tension-less playing so you don't accumulate tension as you play
The tension can be accumulated only if the contraction is static (there's no release)
In fact the definition of muscular tension  is "chronic contraction without release which accumulates fatigue"

That's why TENSION will never be needed or seeked in piano playing. TENSION is never positive and never benign. It is always harmful. It's vital to understand the difference between contraction and tension. Tension is also known as a co-contraction; and the word says it all.

Probably the most important aspect of piano technique is the ability of transferring the weight of the body from the torso to the arm (just for a fraction of a moment) and to send it back to the torso immediately

This mechanism is what controls the weight of the arms, the gradual change in volume, the dynamics and the power. Although we're by a western mentality lead to think that muscolar tension equates strength (which is contradicted by disciplines in which strength is needed) the truth is that the belief that we play with more power or roughness when our body, arms and muscles are tense is just an illusion, a neurological illusion ... we exherts more power because we believe we're doing something that increases power but actually the power come from somewhere else and not from the tensed arms and body

The basic anatomical process of playing is as follows

1) the forearm rises without tension
2) the forearm falls without tension
3) there's an optimum alignment at the moment of the impact
4) in the fraction of a second moment of the impact there's a short contraction
5) the contraction allows the weight to be transferred from the torso to the arms/hands
6) there's an instantaneous release
7) the release allows the weight to be transferred back to the torso

Tell your teacher to show you at the piano all the stages

[lisztener]

That was the best reply I have read in a long time

[counterpoint]

The basic anatomical process of playing is as follows

1) the forearm rises without tension
2) the forearm falls without tension
3) there's an optimum alignment at the moment of the impact
4) in the fraction of a second moment of the impact there's a short contraction
5) the contraction allows the weight to be transferred from the torso to the arms/hands
6) there's an instantaneous release
7) the release allows the weight to be transferred back to the torso

Is it really possible, to play Mozart's  Sonata facile 1st or 2nd movement this way? 

[pianistimo]

for me, playing chopin is slightly different than mozart.  for mozart - you can easily have the utmost relaxation because you are following scalular passagework.  with chopin -it's like playing tennis - you are running back and forth in both directions with your hands at odd moments.  (or seemingly odd at first).  this first created a lot of tension for me (although i feel very flat hands helps relax your wrist).

now, i see that you can be relaxed in chopin, too.  part of it is fingering things so you can maintain a balance in your hand (sort of like a torso balance playing tennis - although i don't play tennis - but i imagine to run this way and that - they don't overstep, overrun, or overplay).  same with piano.  excessive movements really just make you more tense than you need to be.

you all already know this.  for me - taking a few more lessons from a master teacher really helped with my chopin because i learned to make things easier for myself by pulling in and out of the black keys instead of playing precisely in the middle of the white keys and on the tips of the black keys.  i learned you can angle in and out and give yourself 'relaxation' room.  hitting black keys with a bit of an angle (pinky x to black key) and relax while playing instead of being so tense.  but, i feel it take s WAY more practice to relax in chopin.

another thing i made up is called 'ghosting.'  i call it that.  you practice your movements to get here and there just slightly over  the keys without playing them.  not much - but enough you won't be hitting the black keys and sabotaging yourself.  try differnet angles.

[danny elfboy]

Is it really possible, to play Mozart's  Sonata facile 1st or 2nd movement this way? 

You can play anything that way
It's not a process that allows just a kind of touch. It allows both delicate touch or powerful playing. The point is that even if you want to play a piece as if you wanted the sound to be so powerful to demolish the walls of your rooms, anatomically you still don't need any kind of tension, which is a co-contraction and therefore is always negative but the right amount of contraction at the moment of sound production. There's nothing tension, in the proper meaning of the word, can do for the playing that a muscle that get shorter and immediately longer can't do. Infact dynamic activity, the opposite of tension, is limitless while tension is very limited and always harmful.

[cmg]

Is it really possible, to play Mozart's  Sonata facile 1st or 2nd movement this way? 

Of course it is, and it's absolutely necessary to get a full, rounded singing tone.

Joyce Hatto's complete Mozart Sonatas recording, recently reviewed and hailed as a benchmark recording by at least two major classical CD reviewers, is a demonstration of that round, weighted sound in the Classical repertoire.

And, as pianistimo mentioned in an earlier post on Mozart, it supports the notion that Mozart was first and foremost an opera composer and his keyboard works benefit from  -- no, demand -- a vocal, singing line.

Tension is never any advantage to a pianist. 

[danny elfboy]

Tension is never any advantage to a pianist. 

Exactly. Also tension is not power
Contraction (hence muscular shortening) at the right moment and immediate release afterward (hence muscular lengthening) can produce much much more power and strength than tension (hence chronic muscular shortening)
It's an universal physiological principle which applies to all sport and physical activities: a chronically shortened muscles get tired quickly and lose strength