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Topic: Liszt's Gnomenreigen - why is the introduction always played so fast?  (Read 14058 times)

Offline henrah

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Liszt's Gnomenreigen - why is the introduction always played so fast?
on: January 26, 2007, 12:43:00 AM
Every rendition of this piece I've heard has the intro played so fast that the performer pays no attention to the acciaccaturas. They play them together with the main notes as a chord. Even when I play it fast I still take the acciaccaturas into account, singing out the main single-note melody.

Has anyone here played this piece? If so, do you consider the acciaccaturas in the intro? It can sound so beautiful when played slowly and considerately.

I might post a recording of the intro so you can hear what I mean.
Henrah
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Currently learning:<br />Liszt- Consolation No.3<br />J.W.Hässler- Sonata No.6 in C, 2nd mvt<br />Glière- No.10 from 12 Esquisses, Op.47<br />Saint-Saens- VII Aquarium<br />Mozart- Fantasie KV397<br /
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Offline soliloquy

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Re: Liszt's Gnomenreigen - why is the introduction always played so fast?
Reply #1 on: January 26, 2007, 12:49:43 AM
Acciaccaturas as in the apreggiation of the seconds in the RH?


Which recording(s) are you referring to specifically?
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Offline henrah

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Re: Liszt's Gnomenreigen - why is the introduction always played so fast?
Reply #2 on: January 26, 2007, 08:22:36 AM
Yes, that and also the bit after that.

The recordings I've heard are a video of Cziffra playing it (which is what first got me interested in the piece), a video of Earl Wild, a video of an asian girl playing it who I remember saying something along the lines of "If you play it too slowly it loses its line, but if you play it too fast it loses its essence." Also, Jakev2.0 just sent me a recording of Rachmaninov playing it, and he also ignores the chordal acciaccaturas in the beginning.

Maybe I have a different edition than those I've heard play it. Actually, after watching the Cziffra one again he does take note of the acciaccaturas, but he plays it so fast that they're hardly noticeable.
Henrah

P.S. Just watched Adam Gyorgy play it, and he ignores them too.
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Currently learning:<br />Liszt- Consolation No.3<br />J.W.Hässler- Sonata No.6 in C, 2nd mvt<br />Glière- No.10 from 12 Esquisses, Op.47<br />Saint-Saens- VII Aquarium<br />Mozart- Fantasie KV397<br /

Offline gruffalo

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Re: Liszt's Gnomenreigen - why is the introduction always played so fast?
Reply #3 on: January 26, 2007, 01:46:57 PM
have you heard sofronitsky's and arrau's recordings? its a matter of interpretation. if you feel it should be played slow, then do it if it doesnt go against any time or expression markings.
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Offline henrah

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Re: Liszt's Gnomenreigen - why is the introduction always played so fast?
Reply #4 on: January 26, 2007, 04:54:38 PM
True gruff. I guess what I really should be asking is: why are the acciaccaturas in the introduction ignored and played together with the melody as chords?
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Currently learning:<br />Liszt- Consolation No.3<br />J.W.Hässler- Sonata No.6 in C, 2nd mvt<br />Glière- No.10 from 12 Esquisses, Op.47<br />Saint-Saens- VII Aquarium<br />Mozart- Fantasie KV397<br /

Offline gruffalo

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Re: Liszt's Gnomenreigen - why is the introduction always played so fast?
Reply #5 on: January 27, 2007, 04:38:45 PM
oh, i see. im not sure about that. though in Arrau's recording he does put extra emphasis on a few of them before hitting the main notes.
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Offline liszt-essence

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Re: Liszt's Gnomenreigen - why is the introduction always played so fast?
Reply #6 on: January 28, 2007, 01:26:09 AM
Liszt him self said this piece was almost always played too fast.

He accused his students of turning it into scrambled eggs.. (or something like that)

Shame I can't find the exact quote. Will post it when I do
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Offline opus10no2

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Re: Liszt's Gnomenreigen - why is the introduction always played so fast?
Reply #7 on: January 28, 2007, 05:50:26 AM
Liszt was wrong, most people play it too slow.
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Offline henrah

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Re: Liszt's Gnomenreigen - why is the introduction always played so fast?
Reply #8 on: January 28, 2007, 10:27:27 AM
Quote from: liszt-essence on January 28, 2007, 01:26:09 AM
Liszt him self said this piece was almost always played too fast.

He accused his students of turning it into scrambled eggs.. (or something like that)

Shame I can't find the exact quote. Will post it when I do

Yeah, something like "You're making (fruit) salad again!" when talking about their crossed hands messing up. Don't know if it was fruit specifically, but I'm sure it was about salad.

I'll try and get a simple recording done today so I can show you all how I like to play the beginning.
Henrah
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Currently learning:<br />Liszt- Consolation No.3<br />J.W.Hässler- Sonata No.6 in C, 2nd mvt<br />Glière- No.10 from 12 Esquisses, Op.47<br />Saint-Saens- VII Aquarium<br />Mozart- Fantasie KV397<br /

Offline gruffalo

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Re: Liszt's Gnomenreigen - why is the introduction always played so fast?
Reply #9 on: January 28, 2007, 02:23:01 PM
whichever way you decide to play the ornaments of this piece, you should learn to play it the way it is written. they are there for a purpose, whether to be practised to gain a certain technical ability or whether he actually wanted them performed as written.
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Offline liszt-essence

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Re: Liszt's Gnomenreigen - why is the introduction always played so fast?
Reply #10 on: January 28, 2007, 02:32:14 PM
Yes

There was a specific reason why it should nót be played too fast.

If I remember correctly, the purpose of this, which is at the same time even more difficult to perform, was to make use of the silence in between, to give it a dynamic touch.

Therefore making use of the longer silence that a slow speed generates, and take advantage of that.

 So I think personally, you have to use this silence somehow, to make the whole more 'electrifying' Play the notes independently from each other, thereby utilising the distance and time they have in a relative position to each other. Which should generate a far more amazing effect than simply rushing through this.
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Offline liszt-essence

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Re: Liszt's Gnomenreigen - why is the introduction always played so fast?
Reply #11 on: January 28, 2007, 02:33:56 PM
Quote from: henrah on January 28, 2007, 10:27:27 AM
Yeah, something like "You're making (fruit) salad again!" when talking about their crossed hands messing up. Don't know if it was fruit specifically, but I'm sure it was about salad.

I'll try and get a simple recording done today so I can show you all how I like to play the beginning.
Henrah

Hahah yes that was it
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Offline theodopolis

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Re: Liszt's Gnomenreigen - why is the introduction always played so fast?
Reply #12 on: January 30, 2007, 01:44:10 PM

I think you should have a listen to Godowsky's recording(s) of the Gnomenreigen.
He takes quite a steady pace but then really takes off during the LH repeated notes.

I'd be interested to hear your take on the opening.

Thanks
Theodopolis
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Does anyone else here think the opening of Liszt's 'Orage' (AdP - Suisse No.5) sounds like the Gymnopedie from Hell?

Offline liszt-essence

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Re: Liszt's Gnomenreigen - why is the introduction always played so fast?
Reply #13 on: January 31, 2007, 02:31:48 PM
I like what Godowsky does with the piece, however it is not enough imo.

He plays the intro much slower, but really makes it dynamic, like Liszt intended. He doesn't just mindlessly rush through it, but gives a really good impression of where the piece is going to.

However, there are some parts where I wish he played with more passion and fury. Especially from 00:55 till 1:12 he plays too slowly for my taste.

The way he structures the piece if phenomenal. This is a really good basis for the piece itself to stand upon. Now, within this structure, he must release more fury in a sophisticated way, stay within that structure and control, but with more passion.

Considering two aspects, Heart and mind playing; he controls the Mind aspect. Now he should add that passion that comes from the heart and gives it the magical, finishing touch.
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Offline thorn

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Re: Liszt's Gnomenreigen - why is the introduction always played so fast?
Reply #14 on: February 13, 2007, 08:38:46 PM
Quote from: opus10no2 on January 28, 2007, 05:50:26 AM
Liszt was wrong, most people play it too slow.

Liszt was wrong about his own piece? surely he knew what he wanted?

there is no indication that the opening line should be played at a faster tempo than the rest of the piece.

however when it repeats i play it faster because the "a tempo" doesnt come until the first theme comes round
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Offline emma92

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Re: Liszt's Gnomenreigen - why is the introduction always played so fast?
Reply #15 on: February 23, 2010, 12:45:28 AM
Ye, I've heard the intro played way too fast on a lot of recordings, look up Umi Garrett's recording of it on youtube, she's only 8, she plays the intro quite slowly compared to all the others I've heard.
Her recording is definetly my favourite of the piece 8)
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Offline ramseytheii

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Re: Liszt's Gnomenreigen - why is the introduction always played so fast?
Reply #16 on: February 23, 2010, 05:32:15 AM
THe problem with most recordings is that there is no tempo variation.  They play the opening very fast, and then don't get faster when it says get faster.  It's boring, the same all the way thru.  I may comment on the video up on the audition room, now because it is the same problem.

Walter Ramsey


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Offline slow_concert_pianist

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Re: Liszt's Gnomenreigen - why is the introduction always played so fast?
Reply #17 on: February 23, 2010, 05:33:13 AM
I play it slow!!!! :D :P
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