being two different pianists

[sznitzeln]

Hi!

Since I started playing I've had a big problem with my technique. First off, I had a lot of stage fright, and probably still do, but atleast that condition has improved. However I think this is the source of my problem. The thing is that some days I feel my technique is correct and the keys feel very comfortable, but other days I can suddenly feel almost as a beginner, and then the keys feel slippery and somehow it feels wrong even when I play a simple chord. Usually its mostly the 4:th finger that feels uncomfortable.
When I am in the "good mode" I cant understand how a particular piece I'm playing could feel unnatural or difficult, but when I'm in the other "mode" I cant understand how I will every feel at ease with the same piece.
Fortunately I think this problem is diminishing, and I remember that in my first years of study I had the bad feeling constantly. Some years after I started experiencing that my troubles went away, but always they came back sooner or later. This happened probably most often when I felt pressure or lack of self-confidence.
Has anyone experienced something like this?
The only "solution" I see is to start performing as often as possible.
ATM I am practicing romeo and juliet , prokofiev, and I will try to play it in some small church in about 6 months. (My time is limited since I am a mathematics student).
Another question is this:
After I finnish this suite I would like to learn another one, but I think its hard to find something that fits. I think the chopin etudes are a bit too difficult (not sure), so I'd like to play something that difficultywise is between prokofiev and chopin, and of course is a musical masterpiece Any suggestions?

Yours Sincerely,
Jacob S.

[pianistimo]

this is just a guess.  first of all, everyone has 'good' and 'bad' days.  it could be not sleeping well the night before - or just being 'off' on your personal mental cycle.  artists i guess learn to work through this - though i'm not sure how.

another thing is bench height.  i play terribly if the bench is too high.  it starts hurting my back quite soon after i start playing.  if i am down low - i can play for hours comfortably.

another thing is flatter hands relax you more and you end up massaging all your fingers (includig the fourth) and not worrying about any one particular finger not working.  it's like you're helping yourself relax while playing.

fourthly,  learning to analyze the form and chord structures of your piece - so that if the worst happens - you can move right to where you want to pick up and just skip over the part that is troubling (or fudge it a little until you get to the chords you know best).  this is much better than that frightful circle of repeating oneself over and over until you get to 'that spot.'

lastly, i don't know what to suggest in terms of repertoire.  it sound like you enjoy prokofiev's rendition of romeo and juliet - and so romantic/modern pieces appeal to you.  try some john field nocturnes.  that will set you up for chopin. 

[pianowolfi]

I can completely relate to what you say! This is what we all have to learn to deal with. On the one hand the self-confident artist, on the other hand the anxious and doubtful student who is afraid of "doing something wrong". I think both are extremes and need to be balanced. I have had phases where I was so self-confident that NOTHING could irritate me when I had to play for an audience. I have had also the contrary phase where  I was COMPLETELY blocked and nothing went as it was supposed to go . And I stated that with my growing as a pianist this contrast even got more extreme... If you have to play for an audience of experts this stage fright and anxiousness gets worse and worse. And when I had to fly to London for my Royal College of Music exam I was so concerned that i even could not enjoy the flight anymore (and i LOVE the feeling of being catapulted into the sky with an incredible speed! ) There was always this weak feeling in my stomach  . I am still balancing. I guess it is just the sort of struggle that will never end, though it might be getting better and better during the years... Keep it up!You have nothing to lose!

Btw what about Suite Bergamasque by Debussy? It is, played as a whole, a very challenging suite and very haunting!

[m1469]

Hi, Jacob.  So, you are sincerely mine, eh ? 

Anyhoo, I agree with most things above.  I will only add that it could be very helpful to be extremely observent of/reflective on what's actually happening, both mentally and physically, in both cases.  I will admit, sometimes I am a little lazy in doing this and if something isn't just clicking like the day before, I don't bother invesitgating why that is, and the same goes for when it is clicking, too.  Sometimes I just let it click and don't bother reflecting on why that is/was -- which I think is fine sometimes. 

But, if you are getting a different result, there must be a different behavior causing it, so why not investigate a bit ?  Sometimes it's difficult to discern what those things are exactly.  But, when it can be discerned, it is something that can be pin-pointed either/both mentally and physically, and one of those capacities affecting the other.

Just my two cents. 


m1469

[opus10no2]

I have this same problem - my recordings never reflect my true ability...unless I leave it recording long enough to forget about it.

But I think the only way to deal with this is to confront your fears, gradually, by playing around different people - what I did( I haven't played a concert) was play in music shops and simply play while people walked around...
Although the audience certainly wasn't the most discerning, watching the reactions and smiles of the children and people who observed me, it made me feel a kind of joy inside me, the joy of communicating and pleasing others with my music, and it was magical and a real boost to my confidence.

[pianowolfi]

Oh yeah and reading the above I see hat I have completely forgotten to give any advice how to improve on this. To me after all the most successful tactic was to set myself on fire before a performance, so radically that i burst almost from musical energy and inspiration. I want to communicate the music and play the hell out of myself. And I take homeopathic meds. Of course after having practised very carefully and memorized very detailedly. It almost every time ended in a "disaster" (at least in my book) when I was not completely convinced that I was really ready to do a concert, for instance in one case where a teacher had pursuaded me to do one although I did not feel ready to do it.

[sznitzeln]

Thanks for the advice!

m1469,
Sure I'm sincerely yours, that's what I said right? 
I have been trying to observe different details about the position of my hand,
but I dont think I have really found a big difference, but I agree with you that analyzing yourself is very important. On the other hand sometimes people give you the advice "dont think too much", which can also be sensible. I think that when I think of it as a problem it becomes a problem. Sometimes I walk to the piano and I know I will not have a problem.

Pianowolfi, Opus10no2, I have also noted that just playing infront of people helps...
And also, playing a concert you feel you are not ready for is really disastrous. The nerves won't get you any more ready to play, and I think its better to give concerts that you actaully can do, so your subconcious think concerts are not so bad afterall.


Pianistissimo, I have given the flatness/curvature of the hand an extreme amount of thought. When I was younger I thought that my fingers were impossible to play with because of their hyperflexibility of the last joint. "they bend the wrong way". But I have noticed lots of pianists having this (cziffra, bolet, many others). Some play with extremely flat fingers, some with very bent fingers (pollini). And of course some pieces (chopin 10.4) require quick alteration between both forms. I think anything works as long as it feels right. But I do agree that in general its not good to play on the very tips of the fingers, but rather on the "cushions"...

Another think that helped me with my playing is that I have been teaching mathematics for a class of about 20 students for a year... I was quite nervous in the beginning... now its just "going to work".

As for repertoire I do love to play romantic and modern music (not that there's anything wrong with bach, mozart). I have concidered playing Suite Bergamesque, and I'm sure its challenging and extremely beautiful, but I'm not sure its as difficult as romeo and juliet. If I were to play debussy, I might try preludes book 1, but I know there are some terrible things in there Actually how difficult are these?

Cheers

[m1469]

m1469,
Sure I'm sincerely yours, that's what I said right? 

So we have an understanding, then  .

I have been trying to observe different details about the position of my hand,
but I dont think I have really found a big difference, but I agree with you that analyzing yourself is very important.

Yes, observing in an "emotionally detached" way is best; just gathering information from what is being given back to you by your playing. 

On the other hand sometimes people give you the advice "dont think too much", which can also be sensible. I think that when I think of it as a problem it becomes a problem.

I do agree with this, however, sometimes there is something easily fixable that just takes a small amount of attention ... like tension in one finger being caused by a certain stretch required by the music, and then setting up the entire passage wrongly.  Maybe sometimes this tension is naturally not there, and therefore the piece just "flows" better.  It might be your mood, or perhaps the sensation of the "right" technique just takes over your mind and body at times.  Maybe something like this here :

Sometimes I walk to the piano and I know I will not have a problem.

But whatever the event, the info is useful.  And all of this detailed attention, in particular, I am of course talking about with primary regard to daily practise and not performance.  I think the "don't think too much about it" approach is an appropriate one at times, and always in a certain way, we do want to balance it all out. 

But, you seemed obviously concerned about and as though you were already thinking about the fact that your daily practise was not consistent in terms of the results you were getting, to have even brought it up here on the forum.  That meant to me that you felt unsure about what to do about it, and needed/wanted other tools to help you deal with it.  Perhaps, though, you have a bit of a better grasp on it already, than what you initially gave your own self credit for by bringing it up here .



Anyway, cheers !

m1469

[ted]

I have to be very careful proffering advice about technique because mine is different to say the least. I have found over many years that whether I am improvising or playing pieces, to think consciously about physical technique while playing is a sure recipe for disaster at worst and uninteresting music at best.

I honestly do not know why this is so or even if it is so for other people, but it is certainly the case for me. These days I take real delight in the yoga of my movements and I never view them as an obstacle course. When I was young I was far too concerned with "getting through" something and my music was the worse for it. Once I stopped mentally dwelling in the near past (what I had just done wrong three seconds ago) or the near future ("getting through" - doing a "good job" or what I might do wrong in three seconds time) and started enjoying the eternal present of every playing moment,  the results markedly improved.

Of course some days are better than others. If you have a hangover, a sprained finger, a couple of hangnails and spent five hours trimming the weeds with blunt clippers, then your technique will be a bit slack. But obvious physical influences excepted, the eternal present is the way to go.

[rc]

I have to be very careful proffering advice about technique because mine is different to say the least. I have found over many years that whether I am improvising or playing pieces, to think consciously about physical technique while playing is a sure recipe for disaster at worst and uninteresting music at best.

I honestly do not know why this is so or even if it is so for other people, but it is certainly the case for me. These days I take real delight in the yoga of my movements and I never view them as an obstacle course. When I was young I was far too concerned with "getting through" something and my music was the worse for it. Once I stopped mentally dwelling in the near past (what I had just done wrong three seconds ago) or the near future ("getting through" - doing a "good job" or what I might do wrong in three seconds time) and started enjoying the eternal present of every playing moment,  the results markedly improved.

Of course some days are better than others. If you have a hangover, a sprained finger, a couple of hangnails and spent five hours trimming the weeds with blunt clippers, then your technique will be a bit slack. But obvious physical influences excepted, the eternal present is the way to go.

I get this too, where my conscious mind starts screwing around with the process, going forward or backwards in time, picking apart mechanics of technique...  Recently a lot of my practice has been an effort to overcome this tendancy of the analytical mind fixing what isn't broken.  I'm coming to think that the analytic mind is useful in the early stages of learning something new, in picking things apart and experimenting with different motions, but there comes a time where we must be able to trust our subconscious to do its job.  It's probably no coincidence that you had to overcome it, as I do now.  I suspect it's a normal stage that people have to go through in learning a skill...

At the stage I'm at, I've found it useful to focus my attention between the very near future and the present sound coming out of the piano, in imagining the immediate future I'm deliberate to make my focus on the ideal sound.  So was this also a stage that you had to transcend in order to reach a better consciousness?  I wonder if not thinking of the immediate future is more applicable for free improvisation than a preconcieved composition?

You're probably right, the eternal present sounds like it's the best.  I'll play around with the concept, but I'm not sure that I'm ready for it, it may be a few steps away yet...

Funny enough, when I went to a lesson with a hangover after walking across town on a hot summer day - I played exceptionally well.  My exhaution seemed to loosen the destructive self-conscious tendancies and I was free to flow.

[ted]

"So was this also a stage that you had to transcend in order to reach a better consciousness?  I wonder if not thinking of the immediate future is more applicable for free improvisation than a preconcieved composition?"


I have to think quite hard before answering those questions, both of which have far reaching implication. I don't even know if I am just answering for me and, if so, how relevant my answers are to anybody else.

The second one, yes, definitely true for me, although the word "free" is critical to my answer.  It is possible for improvisation to contain varying degrees of conscious look-ahead. Just because I operate in a very dynamic way does not mean, of course, that it is the only way of going about things. Many professional improvisers know in considerable detail everything that is going to happen. Moreover, it is a pretty delicate question in that look-ahead can vary from the note-specific to the vaguely general in any of the musical elements.

The first one, in relation to playing pieces, I am at a loss to answer truthfully at all. This is because I cannot make up my mind whether it is better to focus on an ideal sound, as you say, and achieve it with certainty, or take a risk and hope for a nice surprise rather than an unpleasant shock. Generally speaking I prefer the latter course every time, but as I am just an old amateur who never performs, this is an all too easy thing for me to say.

For what my opinion is worth, and it is just my conjecture, I think the thought processes involved in improvisation are quite special and are not as closely related to normal musical acuity as musicians think or, more significantly perhaps, would like to think. But that is getting off the topic a bit.

[sznitzeln]

Hi!

m1469, thank you for your fine post. Observing in an "emotionally detached" way is certainly the way. Reminds me of buddism/ meditation...

Its also interesting what you say about the conciousness being in the way... I have noticed that when I learn a passage sometimes I can pass very fast from concious to subcoucious playing, and then I can play with security. But other times it takes long time to pass to the latter mode, and often these passages take very long time to get fluent.
(of course these passages may simply be more difficult...)
But sometimes a passage can get "destroyed" when I start thinking "how do i really know where my fingers are going?", and then suddenly all sorts of mistakes appear.
Not to mention when you practice something with both hands and then try to play only one of them.
Hoffman thought that even the visual display of the piano is a part of the musical memory, so when we try to play a different instrument it can be hard to remember. He thinks that it is neccessary to play on different instruments.

As for thinking ahead:
I am certain that you have to think about each tone before it is played, but I also think that everyone does that automatically. However its very good to be able to hear the whole phrase upto its culmination or "target note" during the whole phrase, and this is not automatic.

Cheers, Jacob

[loops]

Once I stopped mentally dwelling in the near past (what I had just done wrong three seconds ago) or the near future ("getting through" - doing a "good job" or what I might do wrong in three seconds time) and started enjoying the eternal present of every playing moment,  the results markedly improved.

My thoughts on this, for what they are worth: you can't immediately forget the immediate past
as the sounds you just made will mingle with what you are doing now, and to make a beautiful
sound the immediate past needs to meld with the immediate present. Also, you can't be totally unconscious
of the immediate future because you need to anticipate what yur hands will do. (Ted is talking about the
negative aspects of immediate past/immediate future, I'm talking about the positive.)

Anyway the best image I can think of is surfing. Think of time as a wave on an ocean. Immediate past
is the back of the wave. Immediate future at the front. And you have to surf it, just before the crest: that is my image of the eternal present.

[rc]

"So was this also a stage that you had to transcend in order to reach a better consciousness?  I wonder if not thinking of the immediate future is more applicable for free improvisation than a preconcieved composition?"


I have to think quite hard before answering those questions, both of which have far reaching implication. I don't even know if I am just answering for me and, if so, how relevant my answers are to anybody else.

I find your answers useful because I'm interested in learning how to improvise freely, it's something I want to be able to do.  Not at the moment though, I'm already treading the composition route - one thing at a time.  But they're thoughts I will eventually use.  I'm curious about the eternal present, it seems like a useful skill to have.

The first one, in relation to playing pieces, I am at a loss to answer truthfully at all. This is because I cannot make up my mind whether it is better to focus on an ideal sound, as you say, and achieve it with certainty, or take a risk and hope for a nice surprise rather than an unpleasant shock. Generally speaking I prefer the latter course every time, but as I am just an old amateur who never performs, this is an all too easy thing for me to say.

Maybe it's possible to use both - to have a safe ideal, but also to practice playing in different ways.  I'm reminded of Vladimir Dounin's suggestion of reversing accents in pieces.  When I gave this a try I found it difficult - I was comfortable playing a piece a certain way - but it was liberating when I got it down, I had different options in how to play it.  I imagine one could practice playing something in any way the imagination could give, to have options and prevent getting stuck in one way of playing.

I also remember there are occassional times where I would spontaniously take risks with familiar pieces, to good effect!  I'm not sure exactly how they happened, it wasn't a conscious decision.