learning chopin nocturne op9 no1

[ant2006]

Hi all,
Started to learn this piece a few weeks ago, im learning it a section at a time HS then HT.
I can play the fist section pretty well up to the point where u have to play 11 notes RH and the 6 LH then 22 RH 12LH, i realise that the LH just plays at relatively the same speed but im struggling to do that whilst playing the RH.
Basically i need to sort my head out on how to play both hands together on this section as one hand tends to follow the speed of the other.
Does anyone know of any good ways to practice this? either through pieces or excercises.
Thanks.

[imbetter]

i know what you mean i struggle on this sort of thing occaisionaly as well (eg playing 16ths in presto and then 32s comming in). This piece shouldnt be played that fast to  beginn with so you shouldnt have too much trouble. But if you do have trouble play it HT slowly and then gradualy jack up the metronome. this helps alot. It has the same type of practice in hannon.

good luck

[le_poete_mourant]

This is a tricky part because of the fact that the values don't quite match up.  11 against 6 and 12 against 22 just don't come naturally.  So, for this reason, I don't think metronome work will help much.  You'll find yourself focusing too much on rhythm, and if you get caught up in being even, you won't get anywhere because it just isn't humanly  possible.  So divide up the 11 against 6 in a managable fashion:  3 against 6 and then 3 against five for the first grouping.  Divide the 12 by 22 in half, and you get another grouping of 11 against 6, which you again subdivide.  This should probably make it easier on you. 

[ant2006]

Thanks, i realised yesterday that might be a good idea before i saw your post so ill try that. I guess once you learn it thats it but its the first piece ive had to learn a part like this in, only been playing since october.

[ant2006]

im getting somewhere with it now, can play the first 11 on 6 at half speed 

[the_duck]

i'd recommend having a look at the descending b flat minor scale on the final page of the nocturne before you get much further into it. it's probably the hardest bit of the piece (particularly for people relatively new to the piano) so it will probably take the longest to perfect, and you don't want that to be lagging behind after the rest of it is mastered. as for the cross-rhythms, i'd recommend only consciously focusing on the right hand while the left hand goes on autopilot. for that you'll need to practice this bit hands separately until you can do either hand in your sleep. definitely stick at it- once you crack this piece it's an absolutely brilliant one to have in your arsenal! i learned it about 3 years ago and still play it regularly.

[danny elfboy]

Hi all,
Started to learn this piece a few weeks ago, im learning it a section at a time HS then HT.
I can play the fist section pretty well up to the point where u have to play 11 notes RH and the 6 LH then 22 RH 12LH, i realise that the LH just plays at relatively the same speed but im struggling to do that whilst playing the RH.
Basically i need to sort my head out on how to play both hands together on this section as one hand tends to follow the speed of the other.
Does anyone know of any good ways to practice this? either through pieces or excercises.
Thanks.

I'm not familiar with this piece
Can you please scan and post the section you're talking about?

[ant2006]

hi,
thanks the_duck, it seems to be coming along now with that beginning part because i have practiced both HS so much its only taken me a few days to pick up doing HT...its not perfect but il work on that, but im enjoying learning this piece..probably a bit out of my league but i dnt learn anything if it doesnt seem a challenge 2 me. Ill have a look at the end as you said,it doesnt look too bad but im sure when i try it ill be pulling my hair out...as is the usual case lol.

danny elfboy:

sorry i dont have a scanner but im sure you will be able 2 find the 1st page free on the net somewhere thats the part im working on.

[danny elfboy]

danny elfboy:

sorry i dont have a scanner but im sure you will be able 2 find the 1st page free on the net somewhere thats the part im working on.

Okay, found it


I suggest two ways to overcome your problems
One theorical and one technical

You have an irregular group of 11 notes against a regular pair group of 6 notes
You have to find a way to make the irregular group DIVIDABLE for the regular group

That's how you proceed
You make all the notes of your 11 group dotted
This means that the first D (eight note) will become three D (sixteenth notes)
So you will have 33 sixteenth notes
Now these notes must be grouped by the number of subdivisions of each movement (hence 3)
So if you group your 33 notes by groups of three you get 3 groups of 11th notes
Now you exactly know how to play your 11 against 6

B - F goes with the first 11 group
D - B goes with the second 11 group
F - F goes with the third 11 group



This is theorical to grasp the concept mathematically
As for technically train your hand to do this I suggest you to practice this in this way:


Play the first 11 group with the right hand
Now play the first eight note of the left hand (the ones against the 11 notes) hence B without letting it confuse. In other words you must just play the first note of the left hand and nothing else while letting the first 11th group flow
When you can do this you repeat the same but this time you play the first two notes of the LH group (B and F) and nothing else while letting the 11th group flow.
In other words you're training your hand to play their part without being confused by the other hand part by just adding the other hand part little by little.

When you can do this you practice adding the third note of the LH group and then the fourth note while still playing your 11 notes with the right hand. You know you have mastered the adding of one note of the LH when it doesn't confuse your right hand playing which just flow naturally. Keep doing this till you have added all 6 notes to a flowing RH playing 11 notes.

You apply the same theorical and technical principle to the 22th against the 12 notes

[ant2006]

Thanks a lot 
Ill give that a go on the 22 part, got the 1st part down almost.

[danny elfboy]

Thanks a lot 
Ill give that a go on the 22 part, got the 1st part down almost.

Remember that the 22 against 12 is the same of 11 against 6 just doubled
So divide the 22 and the 12 by two and think of that bar as two 11 against 6 to make it simpler

So the F - G - E - F go with B - F

the last sixteenth part of F - B - A - A and the first sixteenth part of G go with D - G

the last two sixteenth parts of G - G - F and E go with F - F

E - D - D - C go with B - F

the last sixteenth part of C - D - C - B and the first sixteenth part of C go with E - A

the last two sixteenth parts of C - F - E and E go with F - F
- - - -- - -

Another suggestion that came to my mind is to practice these groups separately then join them together

[ant2006]

yeah i think that what im goin 2 do with that part, im goin through bits after that as well see what i can pick up.....are those called arpeggios that the left hand plays? i haven't realy studied them yet

[danny elfboy]

yeah i think that what im goin 2 do with that part, im goin through bits after that as well see what i can pick up.....are those called arpeggios that the left hand plays? i haven't realy studied them yet

Yeah ... that's an arpeggiato bass pattern