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Topic: Chopin Fantasy In F Minor  (Read 3702 times)

Offline zhiliang

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Chopin Fantasy In F Minor
on: February 17, 2004, 05:11:56 AM
Hi,

I am currently doing this piece now. Have anyone played this piece before and can give me some interpretation ideas on it? Also, what are the great recordings of this disc?

Regards,

Zhiliang
-- arthur rubinstein --

Offline anda

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Re: Chopin Fantasy In F Minor
Reply #1 on: February 18, 2004, 06:01:54 PM
i played it some years ago, i don't have any recording but i've heard it several times played live. it's wonderful, but it can drive you crazy - i know i reached the point when i absolutely hated it (which is anyway better than being indifferent :) )

i'd say the thoughest part is getting those three sequences to be different - they're all so much alike, and it doesn't give you much room for a "personal vision", things are pretty clear, so the differences have to be subtle (i went for "color" differences - and i would advice against any differences in tempo or dynamics); also, that little recitativo in the end - pretty tough to play "dignified" (especially since it sounds so much like hush a bye baby :) )

technical problems... maybe the passage in doubles (3rds and 6ths and stuff like that) - and it repeat three times, in different keys (so much for learning hand positioning :) ); othrewise it's not much

good luck :)

Offline MikeLauwrie

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Re: Chopin Fantasy In F Minor
Reply #2 on: February 23, 2004, 01:38:34 AM
Jorge Bolet.

He is my favourite interpreter of Chopin. Although Magaloff is ok as well.

Horowitz is always worth a listen too if he has recorded it.

Offline zhiliang

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Re: Chopin Fantasy In F Minor
Reply #3 on: February 23, 2004, 05:31:23 AM
If i am not wrong Horowitz has not recorded it. I know that Rubinstein, Kissin and Zimmerman did a good recording of that piece.

Thought Bolet was better at Liszt?

Zhiliang
-- arthur rubinstein --

Offline MikeLauwrie

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Re: Chopin Fantasy In F Minor
Reply #4 on: February 23, 2004, 05:31:53 PM
I'm not sure whether Horowitz has recorded that particular piece - you could be right. But Bolet is the best for Chopin without daubt - Rubinstien is far too dated, poncy and superficial. As for Bolet recording Liszt, who cares (I'm not keen on Liszt)!

Offline MikeLauwrie

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Re: Chopin Fantasy In F Minor
Reply #5 on: February 23, 2004, 05:33:13 PM
I'm not sure whether Horowitz has recorded that particular piece - you could be right. But Bolet is the best for Chopin without daubt - Rubinstien is far too dated, poncy and superficial. As for Bolet recording Liszt, who cares (I'm not keen on Liszt)!

Offline ludwig

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Re: Chopin Fantasy In F Minor
Reply #6 on: February 26, 2004, 08:24:05 AM
Hi zhiliang

  I played the piece early last year. It was one of the more difficult pieces I've encountered, especially the large leaps and arpeggiated figures. Man they were hard! anyways, I had some master classes on it and I suppose this piece is sorta "crazy" for Chopin, it isn't typically romantic but it does have some of Chopin's more romantic melodies embedded. So I suppose the only advice I can give you is that play it as a "whole" piece and make the piece "grow," don't sectionalise it too much, it is an extremely "technical" piece but don't forget to make it Chopin, because in a piece like that, it is often the case that the technical side of things will distract you from the more romantic and organic nature of Chopin. Goodluck!
"Classical music snobs are some of the snobbiest snobs of all. Often their snobbery masquerades as helpfulnes... unaware that they are making you feel small in order to make themselves feel big..."‹‹‹

Offline zhiliang

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Re: Chopin Fantasy In F Minor
Reply #7 on: February 27, 2004, 05:23:24 AM
Quote
Hi zhiliang

  I played the piece early last year. It was one of the more difficult pieces I've encountered, especially the large leaps and arpeggiated figures. Man they were hard! anyways, I had some master classes on it and I suppose this piece is sorta "crazy" for Chopin, it isn't typically romantic but it does have some of Chopin's more romantic melodies embedded. So I suppose the only advice I can give you is that play it as a "whole" piece and make the piece "grow," don't sectionalise it too much, it is an extremely "technical" piece but don't forget to make it Chopin, because in a piece like that, it is often the case that the technical side of things will distract you from the more romantic and organic nature of Chopin. Goodluck!


Hi Ludwig,

Thanks for your comments. I would like to ask for your advice on the bottom half of the 3rd page of the Fantasy In F Minor. I know that probably we are using different scores and the paging might be different. It is teh place when we have single crotchets as melody going hand in hand with the triplets in the left hand. I am having trouble making that seems natural. Is there anyway i can improve on it?

Regards,

Zhiliang
-- arthur rubinstein --

Offline ludwig

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Re: Chopin Fantasy In F Minor
Reply #8 on: February 27, 2004, 12:37:05 PM
hi zhiliang,

   There are two of those passages in the piece, and the best way I found to practice them is to play on anything but the piano. ie practice on the surface of a table, on the music stand on the piano, anywhere you can still hear the fingers strike the surface but without hearing the actual notes. This way you're less likely to be distracted by the sound of the melody and the confusing LH triplets that accompanies it.  Then you should find out exactly where the LH and RH comes into place, (usually the right hand melody plays each crotchet just after the 2nd note of the groups of 3 of the triplets), so play them slowly, but not too slowly, otherwise its even harder. Then play the section only listening to the even-ness of the right hand crotchets, cos the LH comes easily, (its none stop triplets should just carry on by itself), make the right hand melody "independent" from the LH, you can even play the RH melody on the piano, while playing the LH accompaniment on your knee, or music stand etc...Tell me if these methods work =)
"Classical music snobs are some of the snobbiest snobs of all. Often their snobbery masquerades as helpfulnes... unaware that they are making you feel small in order to make themselves feel big..."‹‹‹

Offline zhiliang

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Re: Chopin Fantasy In F Minor
Reply #9 on: February 28, 2004, 04:20:52 AM
Hi,

Thank you for your advice.... Because i have tried slowing it down too and also playing just the RH to have the main line clear in my mind. Have also done hands seperate so as to be fluent in my LH triplets. I can also fit in the RH into the LH as where you have pointed out just that the meloday does not come out naturally and it sounds forced and hesitant and seems unlike what it should be. I was wondering maybe its because of my LH triplets being not really even or consistent in tempo? Or is it because of the use of rubato in the LH so much so that they dont actually go in that manner but the RH may be slightly faster or slower in certain places?

Regards,

Zhiliang
-- arthur rubinstein --

Offline ludwig

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Re: Chopin Fantasy In F Minor
Reply #10 on: February 29, 2004, 07:04:18 AM

Hmmmm.. I don't know zhiliang, because I haven't heard you play it. I mean if you have the right hand and left hand working perfectly together, you should be bringing out the melody just by dynamics, but remember, the right hand melody doesn't have to be in "strict" time anyways, so maybe think of a direction that the RH's going towards, for example, what is the direction of the melody, what notes you can bring out more than others, put stresses on, then just work your RH towards that point. Don't think of the melody as a series of notes, but two even phrases which has a heavier beginning and a more lighter ending. You don't have to have every note within the melody stand out. Maybe that'll be easier?
"Classical music snobs are some of the snobbiest snobs of all. Often their snobbery masquerades as helpfulnes... unaware that they are making you feel small in order to make themselves feel big..."‹‹‹

Offline zhiliang

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Re: Chopin Fantasy In F Minor
Reply #11 on: March 01, 2004, 04:08:06 AM
Yeah that have been really helpful, as there are like contours in the melody. I will go try it out. Thanks for your advice.

Is it true that in the first page, we have to be really strict in the time and tempo as in a March-like form? How would you visualise a form of march in that portion? What are the things that come to your mind while playing that portion?

Zhiliang
-- arthur rubinstein --

Offline ludwig

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Re: Chopin Fantasy In F Minor
Reply #12 on: March 02, 2004, 01:28:21 PM

  Yeah I would have to say that while I was playing the first page I wasn't thinking of rubato at all. Maybe a little in the more lyrical section, but not much at all. I think its very important to "setup" the beginning. The notion of a very organic and natural procession in the first page leads to the rapid climbs which eventually leads to a climax, therefor I thought it was best to keep the first page simple and calm, but in a "broadening" sort of way. What recordings of this piece do you have? or is listening to?
"Classical music snobs are some of the snobbiest snobs of all. Often their snobbery masquerades as helpfulnes... unaware that they are making you feel small in order to make themselves feel big..."‹‹‹

Offline zhiliang

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Re: Chopin Fantasy In F Minor
Reply #13 on: March 03, 2004, 03:46:29 AM
Hi Ludwig,

Currently, the only recordings i have of this piece is the one by Arthur Rubinstein, Krystian Zimmerman, Maurizio Pollini, Idil Biret. Which recordings do you own of this piece?

Are the recordings by these pianists below of this piece recommendable?

1. Arrau
2. Pletnev
3. Horowitz
4. Kissin
5. Perahia
6. Ashkenazy
7. Cherkassky
8. Solomon
9. Corto

Guess i am spoilt for selection right?  ::) But which one is good?

Regards,

Zhiliang
-- arthur rubinstein --

Offline ludwig

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Re: Chopin Fantasy In F Minor
Reply #14 on: March 03, 2004, 01:33:42 PM
Which recording out of the 4 do you like the best? Rubinstein and Pollini are pretty different, but good in their own ways.

1. Arrau---> I would say this recording is a pretty good one. It is however a little less "passionate," but "detailed", I would say. It does have its Chopin moments, like the romantic, lyrical/cantabile melodic lines brought out quite beautifully, but to me, it lacked the display of technical skills, maybe because it was a little slower than I would have liked in difficult bits? hmmm, don't know. But I liked this one
2. Pletnev
3. Horowitz ----> I can't remember if this is the one I heard but if it is, hmmmm ::)
4. Kissin ---> This was a very fast and unbelievably "technical" playing of the piece. It didn't sound very "natural" to me, and a little static, in the sense that it wasn't connected that greatly between sections of contrast...
5. Perahia
6. Ashkenazy--->  ;D
7. Cherkassky
8. Solomon
9. Corto

I haven't heard the others yet :( I probably played the piece in a rush and didn't investigate and develop my own "understanding" and "style" of the piece.....me bad. =)
"Classical music snobs are some of the snobbiest snobs of all. Often their snobbery masquerades as helpfulnes... unaware that they are making you feel small in order to make themselves feel big..."‹‹‹

Offline zhiliang

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Re: Chopin Fantasy In F Minor
Reply #15 on: March 04, 2004, 03:55:34 AM
Well, i really believe strongly that in this piece (and also many others), that the technical side of it is used solely to serve the musical purpose. Its not a piece full of fireworks and virtuosic passages but we have to really bring out the different emotions in it as it unfolds. To me, this fantasy could be one of Chopin's greatest solo works alongside the Ballade No. 4 and the Sonatas.

Well my favourite is still Rubinstein's recording followed closely by Zimmerman's one.

What about you?

Zhiliang
-- arthur rubinstein --

Offline trunks

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Re: Chopin Fantasy In F Minor
Reply #16 on: April 02, 2004, 01:10:17 AM
Hey zhiliang,

You already had the answer (in your signature) right before you ever initiated this topic - without a shadow of doubt Artur Rubinstein. He rules in anything and everything he ever played. Like minds are alike, and that of course include Rubinstein's mind . . . heehee ^_^

If Tamas Vasary, Maurizio Pollini and Fou Tsong have the Fantasie on disc they should be well worth the try. In particular, I am much impressed by Pollini's sheer precision.

Oh please forget about Horowitz (if any), whose Chopin is in my opinion consistently bad. Arrau's and especially Ashkenazy's Chopin (similar in their readings of Liszt and Beethoven) are bland in general but I haven't heard their Fantasie so all I could say about them is my general impression - bland.
Peter (Hong Kong)
part-time piano tutor
amateur classical concert pianist

Offline zhiliang

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Re: Chopin Fantasy In F Minor
Reply #17 on: April 02, 2004, 07:14:38 AM
Quote
Hey zhiliang,

You already had the answer (in your signature) right before you ever initiated this topic - without a shadow of doubt Artur Rubinstein. He rules in anything and everything he ever played. Like minds are alike, and that of course include Rubinstein's mind . . . heehee ^_^

If Tamas Vasary, Maurizio Pollini and Fou Tsong have the Fantasie on disc they should be well worth the try. In particular, I am much impressed by Pollini's sheer precision.

Oh please forget about Horowitz (if any), whose Chopin is in my opinion consistently bad. Arrau's and especially Ashkenazy's Chopin (similar in their readings of Liszt and Beethoven) are bland in general but I haven't heard their Fantasie so all I could say about them is my general impression - bland.


Yeah generally Horowitz does not do well on most of Chopin's pieces. But i do love his Mazurkas and his Chopin's Ballade No. 1. But i feel he is certainly very good in Russian composers like Tchaikovsky, Prokofiev, Rachmaninoff and Scriabin. Plus his Liszt and Schumann's Kinderszenen.

By the way, is Fou Tsong's Chopin's Nocturnes good?

Zhiliang

-- arthur rubinstein --

Offline trunks

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Re: Chopin Fantasy In F Minor
Reply #18 on: April 02, 2004, 09:16:41 AM
Fou Tsong is generally good at Chopin, especially the Mazurkas, Nocturnes and Etudes (hey let's celebrate his 70th birthday, born 1934, incidentally the same year as my dad's birth!).

Tamas Vasary is another underrated musician. Do dig out his Chopin.
Peter (Hong Kong)
part-time piano tutor
amateur classical concert pianist
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