What makes Christians unique?

[DAwud7]

The saying that science cannot explain how and y things work is beyond ignorant.

[Hannah Joy]

For the record I said science COULD explain how things work.

[chopiabin]

Who says there needs to be a "why?" for everything?

[chopiabin]

The universe (imho) is indifferent to humanity, and questioning "why?" is a purely human invention.

[Hannah Joy]

I believe there is a reason for things.
Your last three posts have ignored my questions and explanations.  Could you please stop changing the subject?

[chopiabin]

First of all, your last few posts haven't asked any questions except for one which I assume is rhetorical. I assumed you would be able to gather my feelings and responses from the questions I asked.  I feel that the universe is indifferent to humanity, and it seems highly improbable that an invisible anthropomorphic being would rule the universe from an invisible paradise in the sky.

I read an interseting thought from Nietzsche as he analyzes religion. The first religions were about our doing something to placate the gods, like making sacrifices and other rituals. As humanity and religion became more and more mature, the gods started doing more things for us, until we get to Christianity, which has god sacrificing his child to us and bowing to our needs. Now we are in the age when god is dying because we have so much control over our own lives that we don't need the belief in a benevolent nature.

[comme_le_vent]

dude, im not reading all this...........
why are religious debates so hard to read, but make such good tv?

[DAwud7]

Chopiabin that is interesting, but the original religions
(these are not really religions, but thought systems ways of thinking orthodoxes) taught that man is a part of the universe, like a apple or cat or star or moon is a part of the universe, the religions of sacrificers came thousands of years later.

[DAwud7]

Also it doesnt matter stating that it cannot explain why things work the way they do is beyond ingnorant. Look are u telling me science cannot explain why things work the way they do, Heres some advice Take some physics,Chemistry,genetics,astro physics,Molecular Physics,Astornomy,geophysics,Atomic Physics, classes (not ones that say that god says this so that is y it happens) and then tell me science cannot explain how things work and why they work the way they do.

[DAwud7]

And too take it back too the original Post. What Makes Christians unique?

  Thier inability too use any of the 5 senses they have too make observations of the world around them, but instead too place everything on one simple word FAITH. I have no Faith instead i use my Senses which make perfect sense too touch cee hear smell and taste the world around me.

[chopiabin]

But weren't the more "one with the universe" religions in Asia? I thought the first types of gods were things like the sun god, the rain god etc.

[schnabels_grandson]

I hate to get into this one, but I think DAwud7's assertion that Christians are ignorant of their surroundings is a little off.

Romans1:18-23 describes the reality of it quite well:

18:The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19:since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20:For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
21:For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22:Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23:and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.

As it was then, so it is now.  It's an empty deception.

[DAwud7]

False and incorrect 6th Gen i mentioned the lack of using yoru 5 senses too observe the natural world around u not the supernatural world of heaven and god and his invisible being. My point and words still stand christians are unique in thier inability too use thier 5 natural not super natural senses too observe the world around them. Much as many christians and scholars fail too realize the importance of the shape of the ancient alphabets and what this has too do with the meaning of the words in translation.

[DAwud7]

That is shape of the letters in the alphabet

[DAwud7]

And no the original thought systems where in place in all areas, The norsemen, the Aztecs, the olmecs, Kushites, amererites. All these and acient asian civilizations had similar one god beliefs and the god was a internal one not a external spirit.

[schnabels_grandson]

I meant that Christians use thier five physical senses to observe the creation.  We see the creation and our belief in a creator is affirmed.  Life is just to beautiful to be chance and Christians see, smell, hear, feel and taste the wonders of God's work.

[schnabels_grandson]

lol, it censored "kushites".

[xenon]

It is a sad fact that many Christian religions are corrupt from Pagan traditions.

[chopiabin]

Even if the "one with the universe religions" thing is true, my point still stands. We demanded more and more of our gods until they became one all-purpose god, and now we have him sacrificing to us.

[bitus]

6th_gen... i like your replies...
The Bitus

[DAwud7]

indeed chopiabin it is correct if u look at it from the time after the god within thought systems, but u know even withint the languages of hebrew and arabic and all these acient writing forms they are finding more in the actual shape and how the shape of the letters relate too our hands and bodies, just like our bodies have all that is within the universe within us, our writing and stuff would make sense woudl also have a part of us in it. ALso 6th u cannot observe creation too observe one must be present and Cee with thier own two eyes that wich has happened, therefore one cannot observe thier own creation. And also it is funny that they block out kushites its because it has sh*t in it hahaha.

[schnabels_grandson]

Posted by: on: Feb 24th, 2004, 6:20pm
indeed chopiabin it is correct if u look at it from the time after the god within thought systems, but u know even withint the languages of hebrew and arabic and all these acient writing forms they are finding more in the actual shape and how the shape of the letters relate too our hands and bodies, just like our bodies have all that is within the universe within us, our writing and stuff would make sense woudl also have a part of us in it. ALso 6th u cannot observe creation too observe one must be present and Cee with thier own two eyes that wich has happened, therefore one cannot observe thier own creation. And also it is funny that they block out kus**tes its because it has s**t in it hahaha

I didn't say that I could observe creation at the time it happened, I see what was created.  If were were created, then we are creation.  If Chopin wrote a concerto, he created it, therefore we can call it Chopin's creation.

[DAwud7]

Interesting notion 6th Gen. I look at it this way if i have all the elemnets of the universe within me THen i Am the universe.

[Beet9]

Nothing, it's just a religion as stupid as all the others. Something unique to christianity is the level of annoyance it causes though.

How ignorant can you possibly get???  Just because you're an atheist or whatever doesn't mean that you have an excuse to crap on everyone else's beliefs.  

Anyway, Christians are unique because of their belief in Christ.  Otherwise, the ideas of goodness, faith, love, etc all come from other religions, esp. Judaism.

[chopiabin]

Then couldn't it be just as easily said that any religion is unique? I mean Hindus believe in Krishna and assorted other gods - that's pretty unique. In my opinion, the unique thing about Christians is (in general) their dogmatism, their exclusivity, and their hypocrisy. I think it's sad that human beings need comfort and refuse to give up the threadbare security blankets that provide it.

[lagin]

What makes Christianity unique is that in all other religions the gods want you to die for or serve them (or serve yourself in the case of humanism).  Christianity is the only "religion" where God dies for us and came in human form to serve us.  It's also the only "religion" that doesn't require us to try to make the grade, but instead everything has been paid in full, only leaving the choice to accept this gift or not up to us.  Christianity has been giving a very bad rep. by "Christians!"

[janice]

What makes Christianity unique is that in all other religions the gods want you to die for or serve them (or serve yourself in the case of humanism).  Christianity is the only "religion" where God dies for us and came in human form to serve us.  It's also the only "religion" that doesn't require us to try to make the grade, but instead everything has been paid in full, only leaving the choice to accept this gift or not up to us.  Christianity has been giving a very bad rep. by "Christians!"

Amen!!  Very well said!  You are 100% correct, that everything has been paid in full by Jesus, and all we have to do is believe and receive the free gift of salvation.

[chopiabin]

The unique thing about Christianity is it power of denial - denial of human instincts and desires, denial of science, and denial of the fact that there is no such thing as moral truth. Christianity holds at its heart the idea that humans are somehow inherently flawed - that the instincts for selfishness and self-preservation are somehow "evil" - they do not actually care about the human animal. Christianity glorifies weakness and nearly any sentiment that is anti-life - why are saints and other ascetics glorified? Because they went off and seceded from the world and refused to participate? Christians seem to be denying themselves in this world while hoping to gain more life in the next - what's wrong with this world, this life? Why do you see the natural desires, needs, and wants of humans as a flaw? We all have them - maybe that should show you that your morality is literally anti-human.

[lostinidlewonder]

What makes Christianity unique can be answered in so many ways. But I think for this matter we have to talk about hard facts. Evidence which shows why it is unique to all the other religions.
Firstly there are a number of circumstantial peices of evidence for christianity which presents it as something much more than any other religion.

1) At the same time Christ died and rose there was all of a sudden a great shift in the amount of Jews changing over to a relgion called Chrisitanity. Before christ there was of course many people proclaiming they where this and that and tried to create their own religion, but it was Christ who caused a mega change which totally uprooted Jewish religious values.

Now you have to consider the strength of Jewish tradition. You see back in history there existed the Jews, but also the Babaloyians, Persians etc and they where much bigger and stronger than the Jews. But they where totally wiped out, but the jews remained. They survived no matter what, percecuted all through history even recently in WW2. But they still survive, the Jewish religion remains, but where are the Babalonains? Gone. The Jews have one thing special which was the importance of tradition, it was so strongly rooted in all their lives and so deeply entrenched in every day living that the Jewish people remained.

So this says a lot about the great shift into Christianity. Why did all these Jews all of a sudden change to worship Jesus Christ, the one who died on the cross and was raised.

2) Why did all the apostles remain faithful after Jesus death on the cross and die for the christian cause? If they had seen their leader die why would they even carry on after he promised them he would never die? Also why did Jesus brother, Thomas, who despised his brother for what he proclaimed he was, die for Christianity? This isnt to say that people dying for their religion means it should be considered right, muslims die for their religion all the time, so we should argue that muslims are right. But there is such a big difference.

Look at the muslim religion, how was it spread? It was spread by the sword, nations conquered and muslim religion applied to them. How was the Koran revelaed to Muhummad? In a cave, not in front of anyone. How was Jesus christ revealed? To so many people openly. So people will die for the believe that Muhummad recieved the koran in a cave, but no one else witnessed that, so that has to be up to utter belief. But In jesus christs case, jesus was seen by so many and these people died for something they had seen with their own eyes, and those that died after them died because they knew that their ancestors had died for something they had all seen for themselves.

3) Why is there this weird ritual of communion. Where we almost sadistically celebrate drinking blood and eating the body of our saviour?? This is a strange cult! or is it something much deeper than that? Why would people even use the cross, a device of torture to bless you. Why not chop someone in the neck for a blessing like a gulotine.

I can keep going but ill keep this short.

The sad thing is this, that as the generations move and times change we start to forget about how religions where spread, we think we know but we dont take enough time to look into it deeply enough.

I would really recommend, "The Case for Jesus Christ" By Strobel.  It is a fantastic book written by an investigative reporter who wanted to really put up a case for christ, and in the end he became a believer even saying people have been put on death row in america with less evidence. Very very good, all facts nothing left in the air. highly recommended for believers and non believers.

[pianonut]

to add to 6th gen-beethoven, lagin, janice, lostinidlewonder, and anyone else i might have forgotten - God called the 'weak' to confound the 'mighty.'  i have been a christian for a long time (not always perfect) and people often ask me why are you so happy.  even a long time ago - when i was 21 - a bus driver asked me.  i was tempted to attribute it to music or piano lessons...but the truth of the matter is that i have had what some would call a very difficult life.  in all the deepest troubles, i have prayed to God, and He HAS answered.  sometimes 'no' sometimes 'yes.'  i have found that many principles of christianity make me happy.  say, being honest.  you can't go wrong (even if you did wrong) in confessing to God your sins and trying again.  there is nothing that can separate us from the love of God except denying He exists. 

If you deny God, you take away your own opportunity to experience His love firsthand...because there is another 'god' that seeks to destroy.  this is what motivates people who kill and destroy for fun...or, sometimes those who want to destroy a person's name or character.  I think that you have to be open to good things happening in your life (and not give up on God). 

Things that have happened personally to me (miracles):

a car repair guy told me that it was a miracle i made it to his station without a part in my car breaking in half and causing problems in steering.

my daughter once got sick in the back seat of car and passed out (had been throwing up - at beginning stages of flu) and choked.  after getting her out of the car and putting her over my knees to see if she would revive (still limp),  i flagged down a passing motorist who just happened to be going to the hospital for chemotherapy treatments (daughter revived in my arms as he was driving to the hospital).

times of sickness or monetary need...people came to visit, someone brought bags of childrens clothes (same day, someone else brought food because their refrigerator stopped working that day and the freezer food would not save).

so many many things have happened (not to mention finding really great piano teachers) that i can't thank God enough for his generosity.  i don't think christianity is about favor over other people, but it is about being thankful for what you have and helping other's reach the same potential or higher.   

[janice]

Christianity isn't exactly a "religion".  When Jesus was on earth, he despised the "religious".  "Religion" is a set of beliefs and rules to be followed if one wants to obtain salvation.  However Jesus says to just believe.  But it's a life-changing belief, not a "yeah, ok, I believe". It's more than that.  It's telling God "I will devote my life to You because of your free gift of salvation which I could never repay You for."  Christ calls us to die to SELF.  It's human nature to want to live for ourselves and be our own master, eat drink and be merry, that sort of thing--to live for the moment.  But we have an eternity to think about.  God loves each one of us SO much that He became a man (Jesus) and died a horrible death, anyone who has seen "The Passion of the Christ" will agree.  He longs for you (yes, you) to spend eternity WITH Him rather than APART from Him.  And the choice is yours.

[ted]

I have extreme difficulty with the proposition that the universe was created by a superior being who is wholly good, omnipotent and omniscient. Pointless suffering seems to be intrinsically part of our world. This cannot be attributed to the actions of human beings, that is to say moral evil. Tsunamis, animals painfully tearing one another to shreds and agonizing and pointless suffering of every conceivable variety are part and parcel of nature.

Therefore if the whole system was created by a superior being, omnipotent and omniscient, that being cannot possibly be good. In fact, it seems to me that an argument for the non-existence of an evil supreme being would be logically very difficult to construct.  I do not think any sort of supreme being exists, only that the precise form of argument against an evil one eludes me.

Christianity in particular, it seems to me, is unique in determinedly failing to address the contradiction in the undeniable presence of natural suffering created by a wholly good deity. At least certain other religions, such as Buddhism, go some way toward addressing consistency.

[janice]

Christianity in particular, it seems to me, is unique in determinedly failing to address the contradiction in the undeniable presence of natural suffering created by a wholly good deity.

Yes, I see what you mean.  However, God did NOT create evil.  God ALLOWS evil to happen.  I don't know, and I don't understand.  But I also realize that I am NOT God (thank God!)and God's thoughts and reasons are so beyond me and I choose to trust that God knows what He's doing.  Evil exists because man chooses to rebel against God and choose to live without Him.   Most of us are familiar with the story found in the book of Genesis of Joseph being sold into slavery by his brothers.  Because of a series of events, Joseph eventually is in a prestigious position.  His brothers remember what they did and feel guilty about it.  At the end of the book, in chapter 50, Joseph confronts his brothers.  His brothers are expecting his wrath, but instead they hear the words of this verse (Genesis 50:20)(Joseph is speaking to his brothers) "You meant evil against me, but God meant it for good".  See, God ALLOWS evil to happen.  And only God can bring good from this evil.

[ted]

"Evil exists because man chooses to rebel against God and choose to live without Him."

That proposition may be defendable in relation to moral evil, but what about natural suffering ? - Tsunamis, earthquakes, suffering of animals - this is inherent in nature and has little connection with human choice of any sort. The deer is torn to shreds by the lion because the act is simply a part of the design. Thousands of animals and humans suffer excruciating pain because it is built into the natural process. If the deity is omnipotent he therefore devised such occurrences, devised the cancer cell and the meningitis germ. This is the type of evil which, for me, is impossible to reconcile with the existence of a totally good, totally omnipotent, totally omniscient being.

[xvimbi]

"Evil exists because man chooses to rebel against God and choose to live without Him."

That proposition may be defendable in relation to moral evil, but what about natural suffering ? - Tsunamis, earthquakes, suffering of animals - this is inherent in nature and has little connection with human choice of any sort. The deer is torn to shreds by the lion because the act is simply a part of the design. Thousands of animals and humans suffer excruciating pain because it is built into the natural process. If the deity is omnipotent he therefore devised such occurrences, devised the cancer cell and the meningitis germ. This is the type of evil which, for me, is impossible to reconcile with the existence of a totally good, totally omnipotent, totally omniscient being.

Amen!

[lostinidlewonder]

The Bible does say that people are caught in unfortunate circumstances in life, a wrong place in the wrong time. But we have to see what is important in life. Jesus almost was confused how people treated death, he explained it very clearly, a seed must die and decay in the ground before it sprouts into a tree which will of course live so much longer than the seed did. That is what our bodies are like now. How unimportant our lives are, but how important it is to die right.

Why does bad things happen? Is this to say that God doesn't exist? It seems absurd to me to say this, because then I would have to say why does God let good things happen? Because good things happen then God must exist is as absurd as saying because he lets all these bad things happen he must not exist. So to say Tsunami is proof god doesn't exist is as useless as saying, the people who miraculously survived and the speed at which the aid came to those torn by the natural disaster is proof of god. So those arguments fall apart because the strength the other way is just as strong.

Maybe the Tsunami killed many instantly, but the aid and community togetherness will last a lot longer and have to so that the nations heal. That itself is powerful evidence of goodness in this world. If the world was utterly corrupt the power nations woudl have laughed at the Tsunami sufferes plight and do nothing. There is goodness in this world, is that God inspired? Should god stop the natural force of the world that we live in? Should he put his hand over our world so that physical forces of the universe are deflected?? Are the scientists saying God exists only if he can stop the very science we trust? Because that is what we are saying when we say if Tsunami's happen God is not there. Are you trully saying that God has to stop the very nature of sciece on our very world so that he can prove he's here? God doesn't have to do anything for us! But he does because he can't help but love us. Such incredible love will make you understand that death is absolutely nothing, in death you become what you where made for.

We didn't exist a lot longer than we have existed in the body we are in now. That could have been trillions and trillions of years. What was your concept of that? You have none. What was your concept of life when you where in your mothers womb? You had none that you can now remember. What is this life we live in now? Is it like another enormous womb? When we die we are again born into another existance? It has happened before to us why not again? It is what Christianity is all about, the belief in another existance after your death. But not only that, christianity makes us understand that it is a definatly possibility that murders and prostitutes will inherit the heaven first. What an incredible thing to read for those that have never studied christianity. But it is true, those who utterly change their ways to a new life with Jesus christ will be those who God will be pleased with. We can't keep the law god set us, we just can't we are human and god doesn't require us to obey his law. The law is there so we know that we sin, but we can't keep ourselves from sin while we are in flesh, instead we uphold the word.

[ted]

Essentially my difficulty is this.

1.   There exists a supreme being.
2.   The supreme being is unconditionally good.
3.   The supreme being is omnipotent.
4.   The supreme being is omniscient.
5.   Evil and suffering exist.

If at least one of these premises is relaxed it may be possible to attain consistency. All five cannot possibly be true at once. The point I was making is that Christianity, by virtue of its insistence on the truth of all five is inconsistent.

Your post has done nothing to assuage this inconsistency. Emotional and mystical issues are not necessary to understand the blatant contradiction in a good, omnipotent deity constructing a universe firmly rooted in cruelty and suffering.

Aside from my little conundrum, I must say that I find some of your statements quite frightening.

“Such incredible love will make you understand that death is absolutely nothing, in death you become what you where made for.”

And

“That is what our bodies are like now. How unimportant our lives are, but how important it is to die right.”


These notions have been at the core of so many acts of fanaticism and cruelty. Do you really consider them to lie at the core of Christianity ?






 

[bernhard]

Why not put things in perspective?

https://micro.magnet.fsu.edu/primer/java/scienceopticsu/powersof10/index.html

Best wishes,
Bernhard

[janice]

Ted, I believe that this article will sufficiently answer your questions.  The title is "The Problem of Evil: How can a good God allow evil?" by Rick Rood.

https://www.probe.org/docs/evil.html

It's also helpful to distinguish between two types of the philosophical or apologetic aspect of the problem of evil. The first is the logical challenge to belief in God. This challenge says it is irrational and hence impossible to believe in the existence of a good and powerful God on the basis of the existence of evil in the world. The logical challenge is usually posed in the form of a statement such as this:


     1)A good God would destroy evil.
     2)An all powerful God could destroy evil.
     3)Evil is not destroyed.
     4)Therefore, there cannot possibly be such a good and powerful God.
 
It is logically impossible to believe that both evil, and a good and powerful God exist in the same reality, for such a God certainly could and would destroy evil.
On the other hand, the evidential challenge contends that while it may be rationally possible to believe such a God exists, it is highly improbable or unlikely that He does. We have evidence of so much evil that is seemingly pointless and of such horrendous intensity. For what valid reason would a good and powerful God allow the amount and kinds of evil which we see around us?
---------------
This is just part of the article.  Here's some more:

But what about natural evil--evil resulting from natural processes such as earthquakes, floods and diseases? Here it is important first to recognize that we live in a fallen world, and that we are subject to natural disasters that would not have occurred had man not chosen to rebel against God. Even so, it is difficult to imagine how we could function as free creatures in a world much different than our own--a world in which consistent natural processes allow us to predict with some certainty the consequences of our choices and actions. Take the law of gravity, for instance. This is a natural process without which we could not possibly function as human beings, yet under some circumstances it is also capable of resulting in great harm.

Certainly, God is capable of destroying evil--but not without destroying human freedom, or a world in which free creatures can function. And most agree that this line of reasoning does successfully respond to the challenge of the logical problem of evil.

[lostinidlewonder]

Essentially my difficulty is this.

1.   There exists a supreme being.
2.   The supreme being is unconditionally good.
3.   The supreme being is omnipotent.
4.   The supreme being is omniscient.
5.   Evil and suffering exist.

If at least one of these premises is relaxed it may be possible to attain consistency. All five cannot possibly be true at once. The point I was making is that Christianity, by virtue of its insistence on the truth of all five is inconsistent.

The sentences you write here are a little unclear. But these where presented in example through Christ, and there are texts outside of the bible which relate to christs works.

Evil and suffering exist, just look around yourself. Is murder, rape, war, is that all good? Don't get into a philosophical confusion on the definition of Good, we know what it is. We all have that sense of what is right and wrong, that may be blurred for small minorities, but on the macroscopic scale it is all defined. So we have no excuses to deny evil!

Furthermore the five points are useless for laying foundation for your spirituality if they need physical evidence.  For proof of God do you need the heavens opening up and a bright light with a booming voice of thunder and rushing water calling your name? To this I would push you to answer existance. If we cannot understand how things started why isnt it logically sound to place the explaination of the unexplainable onto God, with reason and power beyond human logic?

I would find it sad if, within the entire universe there is not any knowledge greater than the human mind. Something that if we where told and explained we wouldn't know what they where saying. For sure the univerise is created on terms far beyond human knowledge! It is the epitome of arrogance if we thought that human intelligence is supreme in the entire univerise.

Not everything can be measured, not even a single ant can be reproduced without the miricle of life growing it. No scientist with all the technolgicly of the world can reproduce life without hoping that the cells automatically grow and divide. We cannot make things grow without nature doing it for us. We can encourage and destroy growth but we cannot create it. That is evidence of God in itself!!

Here is something we cannot explain, why do cells divide and grow? What makes it know what to do? We can only guess and theorise, and we see it with out own eyes under a microscope! We cannot even mimic the actions without relying on nature. So the cycle continues, we constantly rely on nature to give us life, do we question how the wheat grows in the field? Do we even now how it happen? We know the stages, but we dont know why it happens, or how the cells divide, grow and produce wheat. But we accept it, without any wonder. We eat bread without even thinking that it was created by nature, a process totally out of human power.

That is where you get blinded and God seems to be no where. Because you expect something like an amazing sign, you don't stop and think about what life really is. It is a total mystery no matter how much theories are put together, theories are not facts, and science is built upon lots of theories yet we trust it very very dearly. This logic seems to evade people when it comes to God though.

“Such incredible love will make you understand that death is absolutely nothing, in death you become what you where made for.”

And

“That is what our bodies are like now. How unimportant our lives are, but how important it is to die right.”

These notions have been at the core of so many acts of fanaticism and cruelty. Do you really consider them to lie at the core of Christianity ?

I don't proclaim this or that to lie in the core of Christianity. The core is the belief in the ressurection and life after death. With that beleif firmly placed you start to realise how unimoprtant life really is now. This doesn't mean that you give up on life and just do whatever and say oh when i die it will be better. no definatly not. It has much deeper meaning than that. What it means is that you do not get overly desperate over your loss in this world. To all of us in this world there is one thing we must all experience, that is death.

There is no human resource out there to make you feel that death is ok. Maybe there are professionals who can talk and make you feel better, or support groups, but nothing which gives reason or answer to death. They only tell you how to cope. But Christianity gives absolute hope after death, so in reality death doesn't have such a negative effect on our lives. The most devastating thing that can happen to you becomes absorbed and filled with hope.

You ask any psycharatrist or psychologist, ask them how many Christians suffer mental illness, the statistics will astound you. It is because there is hope generated in whatever happens wrong in your life, because we know that this life is a test, dont place all your worth on it because what comes next is so much more important. Live an unjealous life, live an unjudgemental life now. All these things grow out of caring way too much for your life and gaining material, wealth etc. We must know what life is for, it isnt to get get get, but to broaden our minds with the word of God. That journey is totally different and personal for everyone, there is no one way about doing it. Church is for when you have made your mind up and want to broaded your knowledge of Gods word furthermore, but before that I think we must all make our personal journey and discovery of god. It is just that we dont make the time for it and commitment.

[ted]

Thank you for the pointer to the article but it does NOT address natural evil and suffering.

"Here it is important first to recognize that we live in a fallen world, and that we are subject to natural disasters that would not have occurred had man not chosen to rebel against God."

The whole point I have difficulty with is that suffering is not consequential to or restricted to human behaviour. It isn't just a matter of disasters affecting people but of suffering of sentient creatures in general, for example animals, which I strain my credulity to suppose held any rebellious notions against deities. 

[ted]

lostinidlewonder:

There is nothing at all unclear about the very simple premises I stated and, eloquent and devoted to your beliefs though you may be, you have NOT explained their inherent inconsistency. You mention a veritable plethora of other, quite unconnected  religious and psychological issues, which I am sure are very valid to you and important to the emotional and mental well-being of many people, but which do NOT address the underlying inconsistency.

[ted]

Nice page, Bernhard. Message understood.

[lostinidlewonder]

if you read what i wrote again ted i did ask questions. or are you too high for that?

[ted]

Although very interesting, and certainly worthy of future discussion, your questions have little to do with the consistency of the mentioned premises. Do you consider them all to be true or do you not ? That's all there is to it.

"If we cannot understand how things started why isnt it logically sound to place the explaination of the unexplainable onto God, with reason and power beyond human logic?"

Okay, I missed that one. Well, if logic is right out of things and Christians base it all on mysticism, emotion or some deeply felt irrational convictions, fair enough, that's all I wanted to know. Can't argue with that. Case closed.

[Muzakian]

Pianonut:

i have found that many principles of christianity make me happy.  say, being honest. 

Me too. Only I'm not a Christian - one can be honest and in all other respects moral without believing in God. That a belief makes you feel happy is in no way a determinant of its truth value.

Things that have happened personally to me (miracles):

a car repair guy told me that it was a miracle i made it to his station without a part in my car breaking in half and causing problems in steering.

my daughter once got sick in the back seat of car and passed out (had been throwing up - at beginning stages of flu) and choked. after getting her out of the car and putting her over my knees to see if she would revive (still limp),  i flagged down a passing motorist who just happened to be going to the hospital for chemotherapy treatments (daughter revived in my arms as he was driving to the hospital).

times of sickness or monetary need...people came to visit, someone brought bags of childrens clothes (same day, someone else brought food because their refrigerator stopped working that day and the freezer food would not save).

so many many things have happened (not to mention finding really great piano teachers) that i can't thank God enough for his generosity.  i don't think christianity is about favor over other people, but it is about being thankful for what you have and helping other's reach the same potential or higher.   

All of these events can be explained without introducing God; none of them required divine intervention to occur. Anyone who knows any probability theory would know that it is likely for us all to experience 'miracles' of this calibre in our lifetime, and that it is also likely we will experience some very unfortunate circumstances too. How is it then, that in your opinion the former occurances add to the probability of God's existence and yet the latter do not detract from it?

Janice:

"Religion" is a set of beliefs and rules to be followed if one wants to obtain salvation. However Jesus says to just believe. But it's a life-changing belief, not a "yeah, ok, I believe". It's more than that. It's telling God "I will devote my life to You because of your free gift of salvation which I could never repay You for."

Of course these beliefs must be very strong - having no empirical evidence, rational basis or consistency (see Ted's post concerning the impossibility of an all-powerful, all-knowing, all-good being), they require a very strong emotional commitment to be sustained.

As for that article: do you (or the author) really believe that the frequency and intensity of natural disasters we witness in the world today was the best God could physically do, without destroying his "master plan"? This problem, which Ted rightfully addressed, was NOT successfully countered here.

[ted]

Quite right, Muzakian. If that's the best the deity can come up with for a master plan, I suggest a child of six could do better. Human beings, by and large, just aren't bad enough to create such a monstrosity.

[timothy42b]

I think it is a bad question, in that the terms are poorly defined and the assumptions not made explicit. 

I'm tempted to answer simply, on the basis of the posts above, that Christians are unique in being verbose.  Holy Long Posts!

Christians are not unique in the sense of sharing an agreed upon body of doctrine.  There are hundreds of denominations and the differences are significant.  Most but all believe their doctrines to be TRUTH and that anybody else is not a REAL Christian.  This flavor is clearly present in the OP's writing. 

Christians are not unique in the sense of sharing personality or action characteristics.  You cannot normally tell a Christian from a non Christian by his/her standards of moral behavior. 

I don't think that either one was the intent of your original question - I think they were assumed so self-evident that they need not be mentioned. 

I think there is something unique, or more properly universal, to all of the world's religions/denominations that are currently achieving great expansion and success.  They are all rigidly fundamentalistic in nature - whether Christian, Islamic, etc.  They oppose science, knowledge, and scholarship, which may limit them longterm but is highly successful shortterm. 

I think there is something fairly universal about the religions that are failing.  They are overly secularized.  (This observation I'm a little less sure of.) 

[lostinidlewonder]

The idea of Evil being, Natural disasters, animals tearing each other up for food etc, this is blurring what the meaning of evil is. Are you saying that it would be better if animals did not kill but ate all grass? Well this is what heaven is promised to be, lions will eat grass just as the deer do. Why in this life does nature have to be so voilent? At the same time i counter with, why does life have to be so beautiful?

Why do so many crops that feed the nations all grow so amazing with new technology. Why are we now learning so much about nature that we can even open up people and cure them and treat/diagnose disease. All these advancements in knowledge we just attribute to god?  Isn't that as stupid as saying, all the violent things that nature forks out to us is because of god?

Why cant these just be the nature of the world that we live in? we know that these things happen yet we do nothing about it. The tsunami torn countries knew the fact that a tsunami can happen but they do nothing to prevent it. Japan gets hit by some 10,000 earthquakes a year look at the prevention they have imposed on their building stuctures to stop death from it. We have the resource to look after our people but we choose not to do anything. Who cares about islanders, why put up Tsunami barriers to protect them, there is no money to gain out of it all. That is where the evil lies, not in the fact that nature can kill, but the fact that we know it kills but do nothing about it, and when it happens we throw our hands up and say, God hates us! That is evil.

Evil is found wherever the word of god is hidden. It is found on the tongues of humans and in what they do, it can never be found in animals or anything else. You see humans can make the choice to disregard gods word and laugh at it nothing else will, everything else highlights the power of God.  Animals are condemed to instinct but we humans have choice. We are the only beings with choice, and the only worshipping creatures. Humans can really be considered the Woshipping animals because no other creature has such a strange behaviour. This is where the concept of evil comes into the picture, since we are human and not controlled by instinct, we are controlled by choice, this is where we can choose to kill or not. Where an animal doesn't choose to kill, but kills because it must to live. It is so automatic their response they dont think, oh i will tear this up and feast on its blood, oh its going to be in so much pain when i do this! no way. That is why nature is not evil, it has no choice.








I beg for us to not try and understand the mind of god, it is something we absolutely will never understand, and do you totally understand your own parents minds? Do know their every idea in life and how they think? no of course not, but you love them as your parents. They aren't people who are there to tell u what to do, they are there to be your guardians while you grow up, and then your life guides when you're older. They have life experiece they want to share it with you. God is the same, he wants to share his promise with us all, but we have to get ourselves off the high chair and stop thinking we can argue anything away. It starts almost with raw blind faith, then you wil,l after looking into it, be revealed more of the truth every day.

[ted]

"They are all rigidly fundamentalistic in nature - whether Christian, Islamic, etc.  They oppose science, knowledge, and scholarship, which may limit them longterm but is highly successful shortterm. "

That's a good point. It also explains the steady rise in popularity of other forms of mumbo-jumbo such as fortune telling, "psychic" behaviour, spiritualism, Oriental mysticism, gurus and a heap of similar tripe. It's probably successful in the short term because it provides a substitute for thinking; it gives absolute certainty and freedom from thought or reason.