What about Scarlatti?

[bernhard]

Are the pairs consecutive in the Longo or Kirkpatrick numbering? Is there a chart somewhere that pairs up the paired sonatas and the single sonatas? I know that Longo groups them according to key, but I've never been convinced by his "Suite" arrangements, but maybe thata's what Scarlatti meant and I'm a dumb pregnant cat...if D. Scarlatti was not a stickler for rules, then I'm in good shape; my group changes from day to day, but I really want to do L.481  and L.186 (trusty reliable friend, probably the opener) and in the middle, L.33 in b minor. But is a tryptich wrong? What do you think, iumonito...and Bernhard...

The idea that Scarlatti sonatas should be performed in pairs (and in some cases in threes) was first put forward by Ralph Kirkpatrick in 1953 in his book “Domenico Scarlatti” (Princeton). Before that, the sonatas were performed singly. Longo, who did the first complete edition of the sonatas in 1910, grouped them in sets of five or six sonatas, trying to imitate a Baroque suite. He did the grouping in a more or less random fashion mostly according to his taste (“hmm these sonatas would go well together in recital”). His grouping is nowadays completely discredited – as is his ordering of the sonatas (which again seems to be pretty random).

In the absence of any autographs or dates, any chronological ordering of the sonatas remain pure conjecture. There is no evidence for instance that the Venice (or any other) manuscript follow a chronological order. Although Kirkpatrick assumes so, he is careful to state that this is simply for lack of a better option.

Now if we forget the chronological aspect, in the Parma and Venice manuscripts (Kirkpatrick tells us) the sonatas are indeed ordered in pairs – although not all of them. 388 are paired and 12 seem to have been conceived as triptychs (groups of three). So at least 400 out of the 555 were not intended to be performed separately.

Kirkpatrick’s numbering system implies the pairing (that is, sonatas to be paired are never apart: they follow each other).

Again, according to him, the pairing starts at sonata k99, which is paired with K100. (That is, the first 98 sonatas in his numbering are not paired sonatas). He further tells us that pairs always have the same tonic key (although one may be minor and another major – for instance, K99 is in C minor and K 100 is in C major)

Anyway, here are the paired sonatas (in Kirkpatrick's opinion):

1.   K99 – K100
2.   K102 – K103
3.   K104 – K105
4.   K106 – K107
5.   K109 - k110
6.   K113 – K114
7.   K115 – K116
8.   K118 – K119
9.   K124 – K125
10.   K132 – K133
11.   K134 – K135 (135 – 136?)
12.   K137 – K138
13.   K140 – K141
14.   K148 – K149
15.   K150 – K151
16.   K152 – K153
17.   K154 – K155
18.   K156 – K157
19.   K158 – K 159
20.   K160 – K161
21.   K162 –K163
22.   K165 – K166
23.   K167 – K168
24.   K177 – K178
25.   K179 – K180
26.   K181 – K182
27.   K183 – K184
28.   K185 – K186 (186 – 187?)
29.   K189 – K190
30.   K192 – K193
31.   K194 – K195
32.   K199 – K200
33.   K204 – K205
34.   K206 – K207
35.   K208 – k209
36.   K211 – K212
37.   K213 –K214
38.   K215 – K216
39.   K217 – K218
40.   K219 – K220
41.   K221 – K222
42.   K223 – K224
43.   K225 – K226
44.   K228 – K229
45.   K230 – K231
46.   K232 – K233
47.   K234 -  K235
48.   K236 – K237
49.   K238 – K239
50.   K240 – K241
51.   K242 – K243
52.   K244 – K245
53.   K246 – K247
54.   K248 – K249
55.   K250 – K251
56.   K252 – K253
57.   K254 – K255
58.   K256 – K257
59.   K259 –k 260
60.   K261 – K262
61.   K263 – K264
62.   K266 – K 267
63.   K268 – K269
64.   K270 – K271
65.   K272 – K273
66.   K274 – k275 – k276
67.   K277 – K278
68.   K279 – K280
69.   K281 – K282
70.   K283 – K284
71.   K285 – K286
72.   K287 – k288
73.   K289 – K290
74.   K291 – K292
75.   K294 – K295
76.   K296 – K297
77.   K298 – K299
78.   K300 – K301
79.   K302 – K303
80.   K304 – K305
81.   K306 – K307
82.   K308 – K309
83.   K310 – K311
84.   K312 – K313
85.   K314 – K315
86.   K316 – K317
87.   K318 – K319
88.   K320 – K321
89.   K322 – K323
90.   K324 – K325
91.   K326 – K327
92.   K329 – K330
93.   K331 – K332
94.   K335 – K336
95.   K 337 – K338
96.   K339 – K340
97.   K341 – K342
98.   K343 – K344
99.   K345 – K346
100.   K347 – k348
101.   K349 – K350
102.   K352 – K353
103.   K354 –K355
104.   K356 – K357
105.   K358 – K359
106.   K360 – K361
107.   K362 – K363
108.   K364 – K365
109.   K366 – K367
110.   K368 – K369
111.   K370 – K371
112.   K372 – K373
113.   K374 – K375
114.   K376 – K377
115.   K378 – K379
116.   K380 – K381
117.   K382 - K383
118.   K384 - K385
119.   K386 - K387
120.   K388 - k389
121.   K390 - K391 
122.   K392 - K393
123.   K394 - K395
124.   K396 - K397
125.   K398 - K399
126.   K400 - K401
127.   K402 – K403
128.   K 404 – K405
129.   K406 – K407
130.   K408 – K409
131.   K410 – K411
132.   K412 – K413
133.   K414 – K415
134.   K416 – K417
135.   K418 – K419
136.   K420  - K421
137.   K422 – K423
138.   K424 – K425
139.   K426 – K427
140.   K428 – K429
141.   K431 – K432
142.   K 434 – K435 – K436
143.   K437 – K438
144.   K 439 – K440
145.   K441 – K442
146.   K443 – K444
147.   K445 – K446
148.   K447 – K448
149.   K449 – K450
150.   K452 – K453
151.   K454 – K455
152.   K456 – K457
153.   K458 – K459
154.   K460 – K461
155.   K462 – K463
156.   K464 – k465
157.   K466 – K467
158.   K468 – K469
159.   K470 – k471
160.   K472 – K473
161.   K474 – K475
162.   K476 – K477
163.   K478 – K479   
164.   K481 – K482
165.   K485 – K486 – K487
166.   K488 – K489
167.   K490 – K491 – K492
168.   K493 – K494
169.   K495 – K496
170.   K497 – K498
171.   K499 – K500
172.   K501 – K502
173.   K503 – K504
174.   K505 – K506
175.   K507 – K508
176.   K509 – K510
177.   K511 – K512
178.   K514 – K515
179.   K516 – K517
180.   K518 – k519
181.   K520 – K521
182.   K522 – K523
183.   K524 – K525
184.   K526 – k527
185.   K 528 – K529
186.   K530 – K531
187.   K532 – K533
188.   K534 – K535
189.   K536 – K537
190.   K538 – K539
191.   K540 – K541
192.   K542 – K543
193.   K544 – k545
194.   K546 – K547
195.   K548 – K549
196.   K550  - K551
197.   K552 – K553
198.   K554 – K555

I hope this helps.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[arensky]

I hope this helps.

Yes it does, thank you very much!   

[bernhard]

You are welcome

[mmccarthy]

I love Scarlatti. Right now I'm working on my fifth sonata, K. 449. It is so cheerful I feel like jumping out a window whenever I listen to it.

So far I've learned K. 466, K. 197, K. 198, and K. 183. I was hoping that K. 197 and 198 would be one of those Kirkpatrick pairs, but unfortunately it wasn't on the Bernhard list. I did learn them both at the same time, though, and they complement do each other nicely. What's funny is that, because I was using the Longo edition, I didn't know that Kirkpatrick made them neighboring pieces until after I learned them. But then again, they're in related keys, not the same tonic, so nevermind.

Are there any broad guidelines regarding the use of ornamentation in Scarlatti sonatas? I understand that more ornamentation is often added to the repeats. For what ornament goes where, though - should it just be done by the "I think this sounds nice, so I'll do it" approach, or is there a set of guidelines for "improvising" ornamentation?

[bernhard]

Are there any broad guidelines regarding the use of ornamentation in Scarlatti sonatas? I understand that more ornamentation is often added to the repeats. For what ornament goes where, though - should it just be done by the "I think this sounds nice, so I'll do it" approach, or is there a set of guidelines for "improvising" ornamentation?

Have a look here:

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,9717.msg99193.html#msg99193
(Ornamentation of K32)

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[sergei r]

K542!

Sorry for bumping up an old topic, I just got excited about Scarlatti after learning my first sonata of his today.  By the way, I've read that when playing Scarlatti, one should articulate the semiquavers indivually. Is this true? I just want to make sure I'm interpreting it somewhat correctly. Also, does anyone have any recommendations for what I should work on from here to build up some basic Scarlatti repertory? There's so many I have no idea what to pick...I only played K542 because I found it in my old Grade 7 AMEB book which I randomly decided to look through and thought I may as well try it since I've heard a lot about Scarlatti. I was pleasantly surprised and am looking forward to working on some more of his wonderful sonatas!

[bernhard]

K542!

 does anyone have any recommendations for what I should work on from here to build up some basic Scarlatti repertory? There's so many I have no idea what to pick...

On the previous page of this very same thread (replies # 13, # 18, # 19, # 20, # 21, # 22, # 24, # 27, # 32, # 42, # 49, #53  there are over one hundred suggestions (with comments a grades). Take your pick..

Also have a look here:

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,10129.msg103508.html#msg103508
(192 sonatas graded in order of difficulty)

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[sergei r]

Thanks a lot Bernhard! I'll have to pick up that CD sheet music you mentioned some time too, all 555 sonatas sounds great. After that, there's a whole lot of Scarlatti to work on...

[bernhard]

You are welcome.

[caecilia]

Hi....

i just play scarlatti's sonata k 208 and k209. i read in internet too about k208 when it was composed and actually it's played in royal ballroom. How about k209? i can't find when it was composed and was it composed for royal too or chamber music?and why there are L classification and K classification? What are the differences between these classification?

thank you so much...

caecilia

[bernhard]

Hi....

i just play scarlatti's sonata k 208 and k209. i read in internet too about k208 when it was composed and actually it's played in royal ballroom. How about k209? i can't find when it was composed and was it composed for royal too or chamber music?and why there are L classification and K classification? What are the differences between these classification?

thank you so much...

caecilia

The first “complete “ edition of Scarlatti sonatas was in 1910, by Italian pianist Alessandro Longo. He numbered them by arbitrarily putting them together in suites. The “L” number refers to the Longo order. In the late 1950s, American musicologist and harpsichordist Ralph Kirkpatrick did a proper research on the matter, and reordered the sonatas in what he believed was the closest chronological order. K numbers refer to Kirkpatrick΄s ordering. Since then a few other numbering systems aimed at correcting Kirkpatrick΄s chronology have appeared, but the most used nowadays are the K numbers.

For the full (and fascinating) history, have a look here:

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,10849.0.html
(What is the best edition for a given composer - complete sources for Scarlatti editions)

I would be extremely wary of any information concerning the use of any sonata. As far as I know, no one knows. In any case, according to Kirkpatrick΄s research, Scarlatti sonatas are meant to be played in pairs (sometimes in threes), and K209 is paired up with K 208, therefore, they should be treated as one piece with 2 movements, so to speak. So, whatever applies to one, applies to the other.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[verywellmister]

Could I have some info on K.160 in D major?  THanks.

[bernhard]

Could I have some info on K.160 in D major?  THanks.

For all my love of Scarlatti sonatas, I must confess that this is not one of my favourites (but do not let my personal taste influence you).  Here the "exercise" aspect of it seems to predominate over the musical side.  It is mostly a study in arpeggio ans scale passage work, of intermediate difficulty (around grade 5). There are better sonatas out there.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[pianistimo]

i just read an interesting note in my edition musica budapest - 'it should be noted that in four cases it is not two, but three sonatas which belong together.  this selection contains two such cycles (K 434 - 436  and K 490 - 492).'

my teacher suggested a pairing of major/minor - with K 9 and K 119.  they seem to go together well also because they each have a different speed.  (slow/fast)

[bernhard]

i just read an interesting note in my edition musica budapest - 'it should be noted that in four cases it is not two, but three sonatas which belong together.  this selection contains two such cycles (K 434 - 436  and K 490 - 492).'

my teacher suggested a pairing of major/minor - with K 19 and K 119.  they seem to go together well also because they each have a different speed.  (slow/fast)

Yes, you can check on the pairing on reply #50 above.

[caecilia]

Dear Bernhard....

thank you very much, Bernhard....

btw i quite confuse to play k208.. i like it very much but i confuse with using sustain pedal.is it ok to use sustain pedal to play all this piece? because i think using the pedal will make the sounds "warm"

thank you

[bernhard]

Dear Bernhard....

thank you very much, Bernhard....

btw i quite confuse to play k208.. i like it very much but i confuse with using sustain pedal.is it ok to use sustain pedal to play all this piece? because i think using the pedal will make the sounds "warm"

thank you

Of course you can use the pedal. 

However consider this.

This piece was originally written for harpsichord, which has no dynamics or sustaining power. Now, I am not saying that you should imitate a harpsichord when playing Scarlatti on the piano. But I am saying that Scarlatti sonatas took into consideration the fact that there was no dynamics or sustaining power, and therefore he could not use volume or the “ringing” of notes so that their harmonics overlap as expressive devices. Like most Baroque music, the main expressive device available to composers was articulation, that is the holding down of notes for different times (or in other words, legato, detached, staccato). The other important device was ornamentation.

So before you go on and start adding dynamics and pedaling to this piece (which I recommend you do) as further expressive devices to bring the music to life, I suggest that you truly work on its articulation and ornamentation without pedal – since these are the main expressive devices and the piece was designed with them in mind. This means carefully studying the score and scrupulously observing the different note values, the ties, and that you respect the note values on each voice. This may require specific fingering (so that you hold a key down while others are being played). If you can truly bring out the articulation of this piece, you may find that either you do not need the pedal, or that the pedal will help but it may mask the articulation unless you use it very carefully.

I hope this helps.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[contrapunctus]

One of Scarlatti's main pupil's was the queen of spain and I read that she was in posession of many of Cristifori's Fortepianos, which had a dynamic range. Wouldn't Scarlatti have come in contact with these pianos? Is it not possible that he wrote some sonatas for that instrument. This would justify adding dynamics to the music although it would not justify the use of a damper pedal, since those piano's didn't have them.

[mikey6]

Listen to Pletnev's Scarlatti if you want to hear how to pedal Scarlatti

[Motrax]

Ugh... some Pletnev Scarlatti is good, in a very "huh, that's sorta unique and good I guess" sense, but for the most part I can't stand it! 

[pianistimo]

pogorelich plays scarlatti really well. 

[caecilia]

Dear Bernhard...

thank you very much... your advice's help me much... 


take care,

caecilia

[bernhard]

Dear Bernhard...

thank you very much... your advice's help me much... 


take care,

caecilia

You are welcome.

[bernhard]

One of Scarlatti's main pupil's was the queen of spain and I read that she was in posession of many of Cristifori's Fortepianos, which had a dynamic range. Wouldn't Scarlatti have come in contact with these pianos? Is it not possible that he wrote some sonatas for that instrument. This would justify adding dynamics to the music although it would not justify the use of a damper pedal, since those piano's didn't have them.

What keyboard instruments were the sonatas originally written for? And perhaps, to which instruments are they ideally suited?

1.   Did Scarlatti owned a keyboard instrument (or several like J. S. Bach), or he simply played on what his Royal patrons made available to him?

It is not known.

When Scarlatti died, seven inventories regarding his state were made. Unfortunately five of those are lost. On the two surviving ones no mention is made of any instrument of any kind. If the missing inventories are ever recovered, then we may find out more.

2.   What keyboard instruments were available to him at the Portuguese/Spanish courts?

Farinelli (the famous castrato – there is a very good movie about him – who was the Spanish Court director of music, and therefore Scarlatti΄s boss) owned several keyboard instruments which he played: Several harpsichords made in different coutries, and a pianoforte (his favorite keyboard instrument according to Burney, who visited Farinelli after his retirement). This was not a Cristofori, but a Urbino (made in 1730 in Florence by Ferrini – a disciple of Cristofori). His second favourite instrument was a harpsichord (made in Spain) presented to him by the Queen of Spain (so we may well speculate that Scarlatti may have owned an instrument as well, since if the Queen was to favour Farinelli, why not her personal keyboard teacher?). A third favourite was a harpsichord (made in Spain under Farinelli΄s directions) with moveable keys, so that he could play in any key without the need to transpose.

The Queen herself had several keyboard instruments – which would have been in her apartments in her several palaces and on which she – and Scarlatti - would have played the sonatas. According to her testament these were:

12 Keyboard instruments: 7 harpsichords of different makers and 5 pianofortes made in Florence (either by Cristofori or by his disciple Ferrini). Interestingly, 2 of these pianos had been turned back into harpsichords.

The harpsichords varied in range of notes: the one with the smallest range had keys, and the largest range was on a Spanish harpsichord with 61 keys. (five octaves).

The pianos ranged from 49 to 56 keys (four octaves and a half).

Now if we look at the sonatas, most of the later, highly developed sonatas require a full five octave range, so they would not be playable on the Queen΄s pianos (the same is true of several of the harpsichords). In fact, the only instruments where these particular sonatas could have been played were in the three Spanish harpsichords with 61 keys (in the palaces of Buen Retiro, Aranjuez and Escorial).

Most of the sonatas can be played equally well in a one or two manual harpsichord (exceptions: K 21 – K48 – K106 – K109 – K110 – K535 – K554 – but even these few pieces can be played on a one manual instrument if necessary).

Scarlatti (like Bach) may have been disappointed with the early pianos at his disposal – at that point the harpsichord had more orchestral colours than the piano, so he certainly favoured the harpsichord – the main evidence for that is that his most elaborate sonatas all cover 5 octaves – and no piano available to him had that range.

However, it is equally certain that he experimented with the pianos, and there are a number of sonatas that seem peculiarly different, and that might as well have been originally intended for the pianofortes: K 148 – K149 – K150 – K151 – K152 – K153 – K154 – K155 (simplified bass line, range within the piano range).

“On grounds of style it is almost impossible to draw a definite borderline between mid-eighteenth century harpsichord music and music for the early piano” (Kirkpatrick).

Finally, Scarlatti also wrote some sonatas specifically for organ (K254 - K 255 - K287 – K288 – K328) and some that can be played on both organ and harpsichord (K41 – K58 – K93)

There is no evidence that Scarlatti used a clavichord.

All of the above is not to say that Scarlatti should not be played on the piano (the modern piano is a very different animal from a Cristofori piano). In fact I myself much prefer the sound of Scarlatti on the piano than on the harpsichord.

(Source for the information above: Ralph Kirkpatrick: “Domenico Scarlatti” – Princeton - highly recommended for anyone interested in Scarlatti).

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[contrapunctus]

Thanks Bernhard.

[bernhard]

You are welcome.

[caecilia]

Hi...
Many sonatas of Scarlatti have Spanish Rhythm....Is there anybody know how is Spanish Rhythm?does it have a special pattern? i mean dotted crochet follow by quaver or etc. Because i've heard k20 and k239, but i still confuse about Spanish Ryhthm...

thank you so much


anita

[caecilia]

Hi all...

i'm learning Scarlatti k209 now, but still confuse with its form.
1. does it have a second theme? (i mean bar 62 - 94, can it include in second theme or it's "B"form)
2. Is it in binary form? A : bar 1 till 94 (?) (because  bar 62 - 94 i think in e minor) & B : bar (96 - 171) or A : bar 1 - 61 and B : bar 62 - 171?
3. it modulated to dominant minor?is it commonly to modulate to dominant minor in Scarlatti's sonata?
4. is k209 included rounded binary form?

thank you very much

anita

[pianistimo]

wow.  good questions.  waiting for bernhard.  (i will also see if i can find anything out from my dover edition - as sometimes in the forward they explain a little bit about each piece).