staccato/legato/marcato in bach

[pianistimo]

i used to think that this was completely arbitrary - but is there a method to this madness?  i mean - can you tell where you should mark one or the other.

baroque scholars please respond, too!  and identify yourself as such.  from the bach english suite III gavotte (which i was looking at this morning) my last teacher, whom i consider quite reputable - just sat down and marked the whole thing up in one sitting as though he was entirely sure of his markings.  how can one do this - i mean, for sure?  how do you know what to mark -where?

from this particular gavotte - the only thing i can infer - is that it is completely arbitrary.  and, yet - it sounds good. 

if i sound confused.  i am. 

being a sort of perfectionistic person - i look for rules or implications.  for me, i sorta like to hear the left hand play slurred to staccato quarter notes when the rh has four connected eighth notes.  often - do you try to do opposite touches in opposite hands.  like if the rh is staccato - the lh is legato. and as one nears the ending - you just mark everything marcato for quarter notes.  is this where a beer comes in?

[phil13]

An old teacher of mine said that all 16ths in Bach should be legato, and all 8ths staccato.

I have regarded that rule as absolute rubbish. As far as I know, there is no specific 'rule' on how to use these touches in the music of Bach, as long as you are consistent and it sounds right.

This is one of the problems I have with Glenn Gould. I really like his interpretations of Bach's music, but he never seems to use the same articulation twice in a repeating pattern!

Phil

[pianistimo]

i am just like that about glen gould.  i like things to repeat exactly, too.  i don't know why.  it's like i have to go back and fix it if it doesn't repeat the same way - unless there is dynamic change or something.  the romantics interpret things more freely i guess.

as i see it - i like what my teacher did by breaking up groups of four eighth notes into patterns of two notes slurred - two notes staccato'd  - in the left hand on the third measure.  it complements the rh later - which has two eighth notes at the end of each beat and makes you want to staccato those as well.  and it sounds harpsichordish.

now, what i find different - is that my teacher automatically slurs an entire group of notes on measures 11-14 in the rh.  why - all of a sudden - when this huge group of eighth notes is here - does he know to make this like a huge phrase?  where should one have long phrases and then other places with short little clips?

do you have to listen to a lot of these dances (gavottes - in this case) to get an idea of what the dance is about and how it should sound.  where can one go to get a better idea of each dance and what it was 'about.'  a dance site?

[pianistimo]

one thing i do notice about the difference in measure 11 is that all of a sudden - bach changes the downbeat to be the second beat instead of the first.  now, is that why the 'coverup' with legato playing?  just curious.  my instincts would have been to break up these two beats into four sections (two beats each) and accent the off-beats (beat two).  was that a baroque 'nono?'  or - could i be helping the dancers switch to dancing starting on their left foot - so the right doesn't get sore?

[gonzalo]

Bernhard said:

What is it that we have to guide us in Bach’s interpretation? We have (sometimes) the original scores. We have the writings of his son (C.P.E.) and the writings of some of his pupils/contemporaries (Forkel, Kirnberger). And we have a whole bunch of musicologist’s opinions, mostly starting in the 50s. We also have the hearsay of music teachers/pianists (Beethoven played like that – so said my teacher who was a pupil of Fisher, who was a pupil of Krause, who was a pupil of Liszt, who was a pupil of Czerny, who was a pupil of Beethoven).

And that is pretty much it.

Unfortunately, the score does not tell you that much. And the books of the time will not tell you what was common knowledge; the things that were taken for granted, the things that every musician knew. And this knowledge has been completely lost.

Baroque scores have no signs indicating how to articulate the notes/phrases, not because they should not be articulated, but because articulation was taken for granted. There was no need to notate something with which every musician was fully conversant.

 In the case of Bach and other baroque composers, the worse one can do is to listen to “intuitive” performers: The ones who did not bother to do any research and just play it “as they feel like it” (e.g. Richter). Personally I feel quite discouraged of ever really finding out how to play Baroque music properly, but I will always go for the “scholars” (Rosalyn Tureck, Angela Hewitt, Andras Schiff) over the “aesthetic guys” – the guys who go after the “if it sounds nice it is right”.

Gonzalo

[pianistimo]

thanks for looking that up, gonzalo.  i do appreciate it.  and, i have this feeling that my teacher really does have a method.  did some of the theorists at the time explain the 'dance suites' and how they should be played? 

[gonzalo]

Bernhard also wrote:

1.      Get the CD of the partitas played by Rosalyn Tureck (Phillips, Great pianists of the 20th century, vol. 93). She was not only one of the greatest Bach interpreter of all times, but also a peerless scholar who was awarded 5 doctorates from American and English universities on recognition of her work on Bach interpretation. This should give you a pretty good idea of what a “correct” interpretation of this work sounds like. Then for contrast, listen to the following: Glenn Gould (Sony), Angela Hewitt (Hyperion), Richard Goode (nonesuch), Martha Argerich (DG). This should give you a good idea of the range of deviation form the norm that is acceptable.

2.  Invest some time researching old dances. The partitas are after all dance collections, so you want to convey the rhythm excitement of a dance when playing them. Tureck actually went to the trouble to take dance classes so that she would be able to dance a sarabande and so on. She said that the music actually fits the dance pretty well, and she was in no doubt that Bach intended these pieces to accompany dancers. Think of a Waltz. Do you think you would be able to play a waltz properly if you had no idea what the dance was like? Likewise, you need to get an idea of what a Sarabande and a rondo look like, feel like, what the moves are and so on.

Theorists of the time that have written about dances are Rousseau and Grassineau.

I don't know much about Gavottes to be able to help. In spite of that, I'm going to do more research and come back later.

Gonzalo.

[gonzalo]

Regarding the gavotte in the English suite nº3, does your edition show slurs in the first phrases?  I think they were written by Bach , since they are not everywhere.


Gonzalo

[pianistimo]

no.  it does not.  my teacher wrote all of it in.  and, it sounds good - so i'm not arguing it.  i'm just curious how he could so quickly go through and mark it all and have it sound 'right.'

[gonzalo]

That may be because of some of the following reasons:

1 . Your teacher actually played this piece and invented an articulation he thought sounded nice.
2 . Your teacher played this piece and remembered an edited score of the work and proceeded to add the articulation to yours.
3. Your teacher played this piece and analysed it profoundly. So, he can judge on musical grounds what the best articulation would be.
4. Your teacher did a lot of investigation and knows the general rhythm of a gavotte, and he started marking the score with articulation marks to express that rhythm.

Gonzalo

[pianistimo]

i know he has an extensive listening collection and also has a doctorate.  i probably should have asked to borrow some cd's of the english suite just to have a listen.  used to think that was 'cheating' - to  listen to someone else's interpretation.  but, just to get a general idea - i think it's great, now.  i will listen to rosalyn tureck at the next opportunity.  perhaps buy a recording at barnes and noble next time i go.

[mattgreenecomposer]

hmmmm...difficult question.  I would not consider myself a Bach scholar but have played alot of his music and studied it in detail.  I think the general rule of thumb sixteenth's legato and eighth's legato is not a bad one.  but that's why I say "general."  There are so many exceptions, and this does not cover other note values, tempo, dynamics etc.  I would listen to recordings of Bach performances and try to emmulate the ones you like the most.  Legato is never a bad thing.  It's about control, which every pianist could use more of.
mattgreenecomposer.com

[pianistimo]

ok - if sixteenths are mostly legato and eighths staccato - why did he ALL OF A SUDDEN - change at the end of measure 10 thru measure 14 and make all the eighths legato for a really long time.  a  phrase out of it.  as a sort of contrast.

should one look to do the 'opposite' in middle sections - just for contrast?

[cygnusdei]

IMHO articulation is a non issue for Bach. What makes me shudder is improvised ornamentations, as in the kinds that conjure notes out of nowhere.

[phil13]

IMHO articulation is a non issue for Bach. What makes me shudder is improvised ornamentations, as in the kinds that conjure notes out of nowhere.

Ornamentation was a common procedure in the Baroque era, especially when a section is repeated. That is why many good editions of the WTC book II will give plenty of ornament suggestions, as well as (at least in the case of my edition) a look into where such ornaments were placed in the music (i.e. where a mordent is better than a trill, where an arpeggio can be upward, downward, or a combination of both) and more importantly, why.

Phil

[jeremyjchilds]

Whether or not these rules have solid historical background.....

This is my understanding of current Bach performance practice...in terms of articulation. many of these rules stem from early keyboard technique, as applied to harpsichord, clavichord etc, which do not have the sustaining sound or sonority of the modern piano. Rhythmic and tonal clarity take precedence as overlying interpretive effects.

1) Longer note values more detatched than short values
2) Leapwise motion more detatched than stepwise motion
3) major cadences always detatched in bass outline (5-1) (5-6) (2-5-1) ect.
     -Especially important to break up any percieved monotony (for the listener's sake)
4) motivic units played with consistent articulation
5) Detatch before syncopation
6) Detatch upbeats
7) Detatch before subject entries.
pedal used judiciously in counterpoint.

This is only a partial list, and of course, only a fool would allow these to become a straightjacket. These are the expectations, and artistry is additionaly shown in how the performer approaches these rules.

Any of these "rules" may be broken for a specific musical reason. Hovever, if the student has no convincing reason to break these rules, it is advisable to use them as guidelines.

[pianistimo]

thanks so much, jeremy!  i really really appreciate these guidelines!  it seems that is exactly what my teacher did.  where did you find these.  or did you make some general assumptions from your marked scores?  they seem to 'hold water' with what he did.

the only thing i am perplexed about still is the reasoning behind his long phrasing in the B section - because in the A section of the gavotte I (english suite III) he broke up the lh groups of four eighth notes into two slurred notes and two staccatoed notes.  then in measure 10 - all of a sudden this is all connected. 

as noted - the beat shifts at this point to the strong beat on beat 2.  could i make an assumption here that he wanted to 'hide' this perhaps 'delicate' place so that performers could dance with the other foot - but not make it seem obvious?  i'm just still confused about this.  it makes it sound 'french.'  am i playing in a french manner in an english suite?  was my teacher playing a joke on me?

[gonzalo]

In spite of the titles, the dances in the English suites are far closer to the French style than the dances in the French suites (go figure).
Although Bach sometimes named his works “in the French Style”, or “in the Italian style”, they are actually a mixture of both, plus German counterpoint.
The name English suites is not meant to describe the style of these suites. The adjective "English" was given to them for another reason.

Gonzalo

[pianistimo]

thanks for explaining that!  it's all coming together (i think).

[jeremyjchilds]

Thanks for appreciating my guidelines...well they're not really mine.

These are not assumptions from other editions.

These were drawn from numerous pedagogy texts, while I was completing my conservatory stuff.

Take them for what they are

[arbisley]

Whether or not these rules have solid historical background.....

This is my understanding of current Bach performance practice...in terms of articulation. many of these rules stem from early keyboard technique, as applied to harpsichord, clavichord etc, which do not have the sustaining sound or sonority of the modern piano. Rhythmic and tonal clarity take precedence as overlying interpretive effects.

1) Longer note values more detatched than short values
2) Leapwise motion more detatched than stepwise motion
3) major cadences always detatched in bass outline (5-1) (5-6) (2-5-1) ect.
     -Especially important to break up any percieved monotony (for the listener's sake)
4) motivic units played with consistent articulation
5) Detatch before syncopation
6) Detatch upbeats
7) Detatch before subject entries.
pedal used judiciously in counterpoint.

This is only a partial list, and of course, only a fool would allow these to become a straightjacket. These are the expectations, and artistry is additionaly shown in how the performer approaches these rules.

Any of these "rules" may be broken for a specific musical reason. Hovever, if the student has no convincing reason to break these rules, it is advisable to use them as guidelines.

I could possibly find a logical and not a "scholarly" interpretation of why these articulations are correct. I discovered this when I started learning to play the organ; detached playing is used to emphasis certain features such as leaps, syncopation, or to make a minor part remain in the background so as not to disturb the flow of the melody. It is basically to be able to make a piece sound nice and distinguish between the voices on an organ, since there is no way of "voicing" notes individually. That's my two cent's worth!

[jeremyjchilds]

your two cents are an important truth.

I had never thought about the Organ in relation to these "rules"

Thanks for bringing this up.