Teaching Improvisation

[quantum]

I've taken on a rather gifted 8 yr old girl as a student.  Quite inquisitive and also likes to compose.  She is playing currently at the RCM Grade 1 level, but I believe her theory knowledge is way above her physical playing skills. 

I'd like to teach her improvisation, which I think will fill her interest in composing. 

Where would I start?  Any lesson ideas? 

Also are there any good improvisation books for beginners or young children you would recommend?

I was thinking maybe do some call and response phrases - I play a short phrase and she responds with another. 

Or maybe invent patterns using only a select group of notes.  C D E F G using the whole keyboard for example. 

Or start with a minimalist pattern, and let her expand on it while keeping the general form.

Suggestions please.

[joyfulmusic]

I've had great luck teaching a standard 12 bar blues.  I teach them the chord structure then a walking baseline.  then riff by riff I show them ideas to play.  we play together during the lesson.  This can be hard for some students.  It is scary to learn from inside of you instead of the spoon feeding that so many of this generation are used to. 

[quantum]

joyfulmusic, do you have a really simple LH bass line that a bigginer could handle easily (and still be in style)?

[quantum]

Came across this:
https://www-scf.usc.edu/~utomo/

[ted]

If you had posted that you had an adult pupil with such an interest I could probably do much to help. Regrettably, I have no experience in teaching children, and indeed, suspect that I am not much good at it.

With such a young person, I can only suggest that whatever you do, do it with a view to making spontaneous creation an act of complete freedom and joy. At risk of being unpopular, I suggest that tying her down to "musts", "ought tos", "shoulds" and formal creative restrictions of any type runs a serious risk of killing her enthusiasm. In other words, the end goal of fostering her love of creating her own music stands head and shoulders above the means you employ to do it.

Sorry, beyond that rather bald but hugely important statement I am not qualified to pass an opinion. 

Oh, of course, improvise frequently for her yourself and make sure she sees how enjoyable it is.

[pianowolfi]

Well some people who are more into what they call "absolute music" may have a different approach, but I love to play fantasy games with them: "Can you try to play an elephant?/ a snail/ a squirrel?" They love it. I give them the homework to find out a certain animal on the keys and play it for me the next time. And I have to guess what they play Or the other way around. Of course your eight year old might be too mature for that but there are so many imaginative subjects or moods or ideas that are doable for mature eight year olds as well. Improvisation is freedom. The difficulty lays in the infinite possibilities you have and the need to select the appropriate ones for the particular day/student/level. Find or let them find a certain pattern, a motif, a theme they love, some words they feel inspired by, whatever. It's all in the interaction I think. There will be a creative process for both. And it is so very important that they find a natural and relaxed way to handle the keys. It depends very much of the particular student. Some are very good in playing and transposing by ear, some are not so good. Some are very much into fantasy and imagination, some are more "technical" and try patterns (for instance mirror patterns from middle D) that repeat and repeat and repeat until you lead them tenderly to a different pattern .( and if I find a way to convert my finale files into a picture I will later post an example, but maybe it will take a while )

[ridr27]

Came across this:
https://www-scf.usc.edu/~utomo/

Thank you quantum for the link.

I would like comments from other people more educated on this subject.
What do you think of that link?
What do you think of the methods taught there?

I bet Ted has an opinion??
Anyone else?

Is it worthwhile trying to do?  Or not?

I just don't know.

Rider27

[keyofc]

pianowolf,
Those are cute and unintimidating ways to get them started - the harder we make it - the more the creative process clams up, I think

[ted]

I had a brief look at that link. At the outset, I suppose anything which stimulates creativity is good. So little is done along these lines that any attempt at all to open the field of improvisation to a beginner is laudable.

Having said that, I cannot say I am particularly impressed with the general principles given in the last "lesson".

1. "No wrong notes" - True, in an absolute sense, but randomness isn't any good either. It's much more complicated than that.

2. "Not necessarily innovation" - True, but it isn't just application of patterns either.

3. "Harmony and theory fundamental" - Not for me, unless improvisation is to be restricted to those idioms whose forms are strictly governed by these things.

4. "Transposition" - A useful exercise in mental arithmetic in the early stages perhaps but hardly fundamental surely.

My main worry about the whole thing is that I doubt it can be taught other than through listening and demonstration, ideally live, one-on-one demonstration. Notation, in particular, is just a complete hindrance guaranteed to kill spontaneity before it starts. Improvisation has absolutely no connection with notation. If improvisation is geared to "fit" notation, and the examples given are particularly trotty and hidebound - completely lacking in rhythmic life - the student might come to judge his playing on its resemblance to such things.

In short, I don't doubt the author is sincere, and any attempt is better than none, but really that isn't what improvisation is all about.

[quantum]

Came across this too:
https://improvise.nl/

[ridr27]

Ted, thank you for responding.  I respect your skill regarding improvising.

quantum.  Thank you for the new link.  I will check that one out too.

Perhaps I can take a bit from each plus the suggestions of the other posters and get an approach.