xenakis herma

[counterpoint]

I don't think, it's possible to judge the piece by this short video on youtube. If someone plays 6 or 7 bars from a Bach Fugue, you can't judge the work either.
And the piece can sound very different, dependent on who plays it under which circumstances.

[pies]

Why are those who aren't interested in or dislike Xenakis posting in this thread? If you don't like the music, don't click on the thread. Such a simple concept. 
I don't particularly like Liszt, so I don't post in or read Hungarian Rhapsody threads.  Some of you should apply this concept to threads on here. It might at first seem a bit difficult to kick the habit of reading about or discussing composers that you're not interested in, but with a few months of training you'll be in great shape.

[pita bread]

do you HONESTLY think this is good music?? hahahahahahahahahahahahaha

"Goodness" is relative.

What do you define as music?

[pita bread]

Why are those who aren't interested in or dislike Xenakis posting in this thread? If you don't like the music, don't click on the thread. Such a simple concept. 
I don't particularly like Liszt, so I don't post in or read Hungarian Rhapsody threads.  Some of you should apply this concept to threads on here. It might at first seem a bit difficult to kick the habit of reading about or discussing composers that you're not interested in, but with a few months of training you'll be in great shape.

Agreed. Although the forum facilitates open discussion, you don't see us go bashing and discrediting the music we dislike.

[steve_m]

h

[arensky]

Anyway here's that video: 

I didn't like Herma so much but the link to Synaphi from Kyoto in 1996 that came up off to the side was incredible. The orchestra complements his piano writing, which is quite austere and forbidding heard by itself. The different timbres and textures in Synaphi make his music easier to comprehend. I will be listening to this over the next few days, as well as Poeme Electronique, which I had never seen with the visual element. While this genre of music is not my usual cup of tea I enjoyed Synaphi on it's own merits as an intense and striking work.

[fyrexia]

well i think some of you guys has over reacted.
there is no need to say that this is bad or this is good. because the only thing you do with this thing that look like 5 years old improv is play it as it says the sheet.
what makes it dificult.... looking at the sheet and changes constantly time btw time, fff to ppp in a very fast way. maybe it  may sound like 5 years old thing but i dont think the girl will understand algebra in music. Anyway herma sound for everybodys ear atonal and nonsence....isnt it...?
But shall we still have a bit of respect to the composer that actually is a arquitect.
Respect for a piece that contains math and changes very rapidly.
a piece that need to be read and to play.
Music contains all.

Cheers

Jose

[invictious]

I forgot who Mozart was after listening to that.

[counterpoint]

because ive heard my 5 year old sister play a very similar piece!!

Perhaps in 20 or 30  years she will be the Xenakis of the 21st century...

What will you say then?

[cmg]

Thanks for your comments -- everyone -- and for the suggestions for further listening.

The analogy to Pollock's "drip paintings" is particularly helpful and a good starting point for me.  If you equate "color" with "sound," then you can begin to appreciate Xenakis' innovative compositional technique (computer/mathematical models).  Xenakis seems to be applying color with a radically new technique.

If Pollock stumbled upon a profound and radical way of expression, then why not Xenakis?  I had to look at Pollock many times before the emotional/spiritual power of his works hit me.  I'll give Xenakis a real hearing now. 

[soliloquy]

Here are the graphs I was talking about ^^  And counterpoint, you should get those sheets sometime soon IE when I get off my lazy ass to pull them off my other computer XD


Here is a visual of the thought process that went into writing "Herma"- Musique Symbolique.  These are images from his book "Formalized Music" which is part six of the Harmonologia Series.  It is not only the holy grail of all stochastic/vectoral music, it is possibly the most interesting music theory book, and you don't need a strong knowledge of general music theory to understand it.  I suggest anyone who likes to study music, whether you like Xenakis or not, get a copy of it










The scary part is that this is probably in his top 5 least complicated pieces 

[ahinton]

Here are the graphs I was talking about ^^  And cmg, you should get those sheets sometime soon IE when I get off my lazy ass to pull them off my other computer XD


Here is a visual of the thought process that went into writing "Herma"- Musique Symbolique.  These are images from his book "Formalized Music" which is part six of the Harmonologia Series.  It is not only the holy grail of all stochastic/vectoral music, it is possibly the most interesting music theory book, and you don't need a strong knowledge of general music theory to understand it.  I suggest anyone who likes to study music, whether you like Xenakis or not, get a copy of it










The scary part is that this is probably in his top 5 least complicated pieces 

I wonder what Pierre Boulez would have to say on the matter!

Hey! Stop "wondering", man! Tell people what he DID have to say on it!...

Best,

Alistair

[soliloquy]

Hey! Stop "wondering", man! Tell people what he DID have to say on it!...

Best,

Alistair

Ahahaha that is a great story!  At the time it was going to be premiered in Europe, it was being played with one of Boulez's piano works also, and as most of us know, Boulez is not a fan of competition (read up on his relationships with Stockhausen and Cage if you don't know).  So Boulez was talking trash about Herma before the concert, saying how big a flop it was going to be, but the audience was so impressed with it the entire piece had to be played again as an encore XD

[ahinton]

Ahahaha that is a great story!  At the time it was going to be premiered in Europe, it was being played with one of Boulez's piano works also, and as most of us know, Boulez is not a fan of competition (read up on his relationships with Stockhausen and Cage if you don't know).  So Boulez was talking trash about Herma before the concert, saying how big a flop it was going to be, but the audience was so impressed with it the entire piece had to be played again as an encore XD

Well, we all know how Boulez used to make a habit of polemic and barbs of this kind; he hasn't quite grown out of it yet, either, although, of course, those kinds of attitudinising have arguably mellowed considerably over the years. Boulez now has, I think, at least a decent respect for Xenakis's achievements, for all that they were poles apart in the 50s and 60s when Boulez almost WAS the firebrand of Darmstadt and Xenakis was at least as much of an outsider as Carter (albeit in quite different ways). I do find it somewhat difficult to disagree with Dutilleux's unequivocally expressed concerns, years ago, about how Boulez used to seem to act as a kind of self-appointed musical dictator. Boulez's importance in the history of the music of the past century cannot be denied, yet the very fact that he seems to have broken himself on a compositional wheel of his own making might serve to remind us that, his achievements notwithstanding, cul-de-sac remains a French word...

Best,

Alistair

[elevateme_returns]

Why are those who aren't interested in or dislike Xenakis posting in this thread? If you don't like the music, don't click on the thread. Such a simple concept. 
I don't particularly like Liszt, so I don't post in or read Hungarian Rhapsody threads.  Some of you should apply this concept to threads on here. It might at first seem a bit difficult to kick the habit of reading about or discussing composers that you're not interested in, but with a few months of training you'll be in great shape.

Why aren't people that dislike Xenakis alowed to post here? Where else should we post? The thread is titled "xenakis herma", not "xenakis herma - only for people that like xenakis" !!

[nicco]

Xenakis is a stochastic composer, which means his works are written based upon mathematical principles. 

Would you call math music? Numbers, equations etc? I guess, to a certain degree i could see how it can appear like music, but it will never get to me the way Rachmaninov, Bach, Liszt etc does.

And, could those who claim to like Xenakis's music please explain exactly what is it about it that makes it appealing?

[ahinton]

Would you call math music? Numbers, equations etc? I guess, to a certain degree i could see how it can appear like music, but it will never get to me the way Rachmaninov, Bach, Liszt etc does.

No, I would not actually call it that, but at the same time I recognise that mathematical principles can inform all manner of different kinds of composition, not just those who resort to directly and overtly to mathematical processes as some of Xenakis's does.

And, could those who claim to like Xenakis's music please explain exactly what is it about it that makes it appealing?

If they respond to your invitation, they will almost certainly be able to do so only to the extent of possibly being able to tell you why it appeals to them, not why it ought or ought not to do so to you or anyone else.

Best,

Alistair

[cygnusdei]

Why do I have the feeling that those who fawn over Xenaxis are the same people who think Duchamp was a genius?

[franzliszt2]

Why can nobody give a reason for liking Xenakis instead of trying to insult those who don't

[pies]

Why can nobody give a reason for liking Xenakis instead of trying to insult those who don't

Why is a reason necessary? Why must anyone go beyond "I listened to it and liked the sound of it"? That's the case with me and probably most others on here.

My first real experience with Xenakis was Psappha (go to 26:00 in this video to watch/listen to the piece: https://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3907771827954373959 ).  I began to like the piece not because of some complex boolean math or architecture, but because I simply liked its sound. I then moved on to his piano stuff, and it was the same case.  Oddly enough, this works with your dearly loved composers and their works as well.

[franzliszt2]

Thanks, your the first person to say that and not insult everyone who doesn't. Thankyou

[mephisto]

And, could those who claim to like Xenakis's music please explain exactly what is it about it that makes it appealing?

Mostly the rythm, and the timbre, but I am no hardcore Xenakis fan.

[steinwaymodeld]

Would you call math music? Numbers, equations etc? I guess, to a certain degree i could see how it can appear like music, but it will never get to me the way Rachmaninov, Bach, Liszt etc does.

And, could those who claim to like Xenakis's music please explain exactly what is it about it that makes it appealing?

music, as much as it is a 'emotional' or 'sensational' thing, is actually highly mathematical.

I urge you to get this book and start reading:

https://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0691033900/bookzone09



It explains a lot about harmony and the relationship of it with log-scale. (yes, logarithm)

so more complicated harmony has more complicated mathematical model behind it (from Bach to Chopin to Rachmaninoff to Scriabin to Webern to Ligeti to Stockhausen and such.)

The question is, where do one put down the threshold of defining what 'music' is to them.

There are people who consider Scriabin as 'non-music' (at least the late ones)
We define where we draw the line. There is no need to ask 'so you think this is music?'

Yes, indeed i think this is music, so what? I can laugh at u using the same reasoning, for liking Bach, saying 'i think it sounds like crap and my 5 yrs old sister can play like that', as we have no solid evidence of ur 5yrs old sister playing Herma, or anything that resembles Herma.

So you see, this is all subjective.

And in the end. Why can't math be music; why can't math be art?

I happen to think Math itself is a form of art, and art inevitably has essence of math (ever heard of golden ratio? or Fibonacci number? or Fractal? Those are highly mathematical and beautiful.)

I don't personally like Herma all that much, but it's definately interesting and I think it is a taste that can be acquired (which might take a while and a lot of readings).

(P.S. Louis Vuiton did sth similar last year by making handbag with color and texture looks like cheap old chinese nylon with red blue and white fabric. One might very much argue that it is not 'fashion'. Which I think LV did a ballsy move, to have people question 'what is fashion itself?', which might be very well modify and apply back to this topic.)

[pita bread]

Why aren't people that dislike Xenakis alowed to post here? Where else should we post? The thread is titled "xenakis herma", not "xenakis herma - only for people that like xenakis" !!

Answer my question!

What do you define as music?

[invictious]

^ Anything other than Xenakis.
and aleatory.




















Just kidding. Bet I got some of you.







no.

[elevateme_returns]

Answer my question!

What do you define as music?

mu·sic
–noun 1. an art of sound in time that expresses ideas and emotions in significant forms through the elements of rhythm, melody, harmony, and color. 

xenakis' music matches that definition, doesnt it?

[mephisto]

Yes

[elevateme_returns]

Answer my question!

What do you define as music?

Now you answer mine. Why shouldn't people who dislike Xenakis post in a Xenakis-related thread?

[nicco]

music, as much as it is a 'emotional' or 'sensational' thing, is actually highly mathematical.

It explains a lot about harmony and the relationship of it with log-scale. (yes, logarithm)

so more complicated harmony has more complicated mathematical model behind it (from Bach to Chopin to Rachmaninoff to Scriabin to Webern to Ligeti to Stockhausen and such.)

Ah yes of course, BUT there is a difference. Bach and those guys didnt base their compostions on numbers telling them where to put the notes. They improvised, freely, using their ears and emotions to create cadences, beutiful phrases and such. Of course you can say that its all based on a mathematical function, with the scales and harmonies and all, but its just not the same. If you start with math, equations and numbers, and build your music from that, i feel its a little backwards...u know?

[elevateme_returns]

well said!!

[soliloquy]

Now you answer mine. Why shouldn't people who dislike Xenakis post in a Xenakis-related thread?

Nowhere.  But if you are so hostile in your assertions (as you were when you first entered the thread), you can reasonably expect a hostile reaction from someone who disagrees.  Be polite and you will probably get a polite response

Ah yes of course, BUT there is a difference. Bach and those guys didnt base their compostions on numbers telling them where to put the notes. They improvised, freely, using their ears and emotions to create cadences, beutiful phrases and such. Of course you can say that its all based on a mathematical function, with the scales and harmonies and all, but its just not the same. If you start with math, equations and numbers, and build your music from that, i feel its a little backwards...u know?

It's just a different form of art.  It's really just a personal preference which only the listener him/herself can choose :O  It is similar to arguing the merits of Michelangelo to Kandinsky or Miro; each side can bash the other, but in the end it's only his/her own opinion that really matters.


And yes E: Story of a Number is another great book to read if you like to study music

[nicco]

It's just a different form of art.  It's really just a personal preference which only the listener him/herself can choose :O  It is similar to arguing the merits of Michelangelo to Kandinsky or Miro; each side can bash the other, but in the end it's only his/her own opinion that really matters.

Understood No sweat

[elevateme_returns]

Nowhere.  But if you are so hostile in your assertions (as you were when you first entered the thread), you can reasonably expect a hostile reaction from someone who disagrees.  Be polite and you will probably get a polite response

but you didnt answer my question

[counterpoint]

Why shouldn't people who dislike Xenakis post in a Xenakis-related thread?

Same reason, why people who don't like piano music shouldn't post in a piano forum.   

[soliloquy]

but you didnt answer my question

because ive heard my 5 year old sister play a very similar piece!! and she was improvising. so is she a genius?? why would anyone waste so much time learning this garbage. you might aswell just hit the piano

Nope, your sister sounds like a terrible pianist.


There you go.  Answered the only question in that post.

[anodibu]

Why can nobody give a reason for liking Xenakis instead of trying to insult those who don't

Let's be honest here and look how this thread evolved. It was going pretty fine until elevateme_returns started with his provocations. I also don't think there are any insults made on this thread for not liking Xenakis. For me it's possible to critize Xenakis' music here as long as you keep it civilized and respect other people's opinions, like for example nicco's posts.

About liking Xenakis' music pies already worded it well why I like some of it. I find Xenakis best in his orchestral works, his later works are more accessible as well. I used to disregard Xenakis until I heard some of his orchestral works which I find very powerful. A l'Ile de Gorée for harpischord and ensemble is one my favourite works by any composer, it has many beautiful moments in it but of course this is all subjective.

[elevateme_returns]

To soliloquy and all fans of xenakis' music - i would just like to offer my most sincere apologies if i offended you when i said it was shite. this is just my opinion, and maybe it is probably because im not as musically advanced as those that understand it. to me it just sounds like a load of random notes, put together using maths not music.

[elevateme_returns]

Now you answer mine. Why shouldn't people who dislike Xenakis post in a Xenakis-related thread?

by the way soliloquy thats the question i wanted you to answer ^

[soliloquy]

by the way soliloquy thats the question i wanted you to answer ^

I did answer that o.O  This is what I said:

"Nowhere.  But if you are so hostile in your assertions (as you were when you first entered the thread), you can reasonably expect a hostile reaction from someone who disagrees.  Be polite and you will probably get a polite response "


You can say you dislike Xenakis, but just don't be so aggressive or obtuse about it.

[elevateme_returns]

ok so hang on - my question was

why shouldnt people who dislike xenakis post in a xenakis-related thread?

and your answer was : "nowhere" ?

[soliloquy]

ok so hang on - my question was

why shouldnt people who dislike xenakis post in a xenakis-related thread?

and your answer was : "nowhere" ?

I misread the question to say "Where does it say that someone who doesn't like Xenakis etc...".  I speed read (about 900wmp), which means the exact wording of how something is phrased is sometimes overlooked   Either way, let's not be pedantic; your question has been answered.


Just exchange "Nowhere." for "There is no reason."

[pies]

Why shouldn't people who dislike Xenakis post in a Xenakis-related thread?

Why? Because most posts by those who dislike Xenakis' work or any other odd/atonal/modern music often amount to posts like these:

cant you at least explain what it is you like about the music? if you can call it music

and

do you HONESTLY think this is good music?? hahahahahahahahahahahahaha

and

because ive heard my 5 year old sister play a very similar piece!! and she was improvising. so is she a genius?? why would anyone waste so much time learning this garbage. you might aswell just hit the piano

and

why? they make practically no musical sense! and if you love them so much, surely it must be a huge pleasure for you to just sit down and hit the piano?

which is blatant trolling.  See Sorabji threads for more examples. 
I have little faith in the possibility of those who dislike Xenakis or modern stuff keeping their posts civilized while discussing what they don't like.

In blunt terms: most people that come into threads like this one with a particular distate for what's being discussed are shitbag trolls.

[pita bread]

Now you answer mine. Why shouldn't people who dislike Xenakis post in a Xenakis-related thread?

Because there's a difference between expressing dislike and bashing.

[elevateme_returns]

hahahahahahaa