Developing the 4th and 5th fingers

[virtuosic1]

i made up my own exercise based on a scale (any major or minor scale, but i would use the simpler major ones to begin with to get used to the the idea). 
use fingers 3,4,5 all the time. the idea is to play triplets continuously:
start on top C and play 5,4,3 (which will be notes c,b,a), then move 5th finger down to b and play 5,4,3 again (b,a,g). carry on like this down the scale until you finish up on bottom c.
you can finish up anywhere you like really but it rounds things off nicely to finish on the tonic note.
then you can work up in reverse: 3,4,5 (c,d,e) (d,e,f) e,f,g) and so on.
you could even go right from one of the piano to the other doing it, a nice work out but not a great thrill for anyone listening!
to make the exercise purposeful (and hopefully not boring) you should be concentrating on every note to make sure you have evenness of weight/tone on each one.
bonus: it's a great way to get to know all your scales even better than if you just play straight scales. it gets nice and challenging doing the exercise when more black notes are involved, or you have to think way up and down a melodic minor.

This will have a far greater carry-over effect to the motion necessary for fluidly playing the etude:

An excellent adjunct exercise for playing this piece is to practice ascending and descending augmented triads on the beat, with the 3-4-5 fingers chromatically linking them.

CEG# together, then A - A# - B
EG#C together, then C# - D - D#

etc., etc.

This will force your hand to MOVE and adopt the subtle lilt (yes lilt, as in a dance), a subtle lift with a fast lateral movement to reposition for each new triad. Using the 3-4-5 fingers alone on exercises will not mimic the particular movement needed. The etude is not about independence and the strength of the 3-4-5- fingers alone. It's about their use while the 1-2 and 1-2-3 fingers are performing a different task. It's about sub-division of the hand, and practicing the 3-4-5 alone with indpependent finger strikes will not prepare you as well for performing the etude as the above type of exercise.

[danny elfboy]

However, I know a violinist who studied with Dorothy Lane at Julliard in New York a long time ago, and she once told him that he was doing the "position change" (which is basically the same as the thumb under movement for us pianists) as fast as possible, but that this was wrong. When performing, the position changes should ALWAYS be AS SLOW AS POSSIBLE, she said, and that's what this violinist tells all of his students ever since. According to Dorothy Lane, that's the way all of the great violinists (Heifetz, Oistrakh, Perlman etc) did, and I guess it could be applied to piano too. However, in slow tempo I often practice these thumb under movements as fast as possible and then in performance tempo only as fast as necessary for the passage.

All I can say is that I don't usually "trust" anymore the fact tha a teacher with a certain methods produce good students/pianists. This is because a student can learn properly "in spite" of ill advices. And as we've seen recently many just don't do what their teacher says, they use alternative methods or the ones they designed and then keep lying to the teacher.

So nowadays I trust only those advices and rules that

1) Have a valid and detailed explanation as to why
2) Are based on solid knowledge of anatomy and biomechanics (so when I head "the muscles of the fingers need ... I just stop reading/listening)

Everyone has different opinions and one needs a criteria to determine what is worth listening and what is plain flawed.

[fnork]

All I can say is that I don't usually "trust" anymore the fact tha a teacher with a certain methods produce good students/pianists. This is because a student can learn properly "in spite" of ill advices. And as we've seen recently many just don't do what their teacher says, they use alternative methods or the ones they designed and then keep lying to the teacher.

So nowadays I trust only those advices and rules that

1) Have a valid and detailed explanation as to why
2) Are based on solid knowledge of anatomy and biomechanics (so when I head "the muscles of the fingers need ... I just stop reading/listening)

Everyone has different opinions and one needs a criteria to determine what is worth listening and what is plain flawed.

I agree that it's not always a good thing to listen to your teacher - everyone's different and what works for one person produces bad results for others. I have to admit that I was attempting Cortots "Rational principles of piano technique" a year ago, did basically everything the way he wrote and in the way he wanted it to be done, without any result at all. However, when I began to evaluate myself which excercises that could be useful for my technique, I did those excercises without paying attention to Cortots warning that one should only do the excercises in the order he placed them... and I actually started to learn a few things!
However, I think that  what Dorothy Lane was talking about was a basic thing for violin technique - she advised this violinist to listen to all great violinists at slow speed so that he could actually hear this SLOW "position change", and he heard that basically everyone did it - Oistrakh, Heifetz, Perlman etc. Maybe it works different for some people but one should at least try it before dismissing the idea.

[virtuosic1]

everyone's different and what works for one person produces bad results for others.

If the suggestion promotes positive results for one, it will probably be valid for the majority with normal playing mechanisms. The problem isn't the mechanics of the suggestion, it's usually in the dynamics, a faulty interpretation and implementation of the suggestion.

[danny elfboy]

this SLOW "position change", and he heard that basically everyone did it - Oistrakh, Heifetz, Perlman etc. Maybe it works different for some people but one should at least try it before dismissing the idea.

But what's like the biomechanics, physiologic and anatomic principle or reason behind this SLOW "position change". I'm not dismissing it but I need to be explained the reason for something otherwise I tend to doubt it has merit. Promoting certain ideas and techniques without explaining the principles behind them has always been how the finger-centered (those that believed there are important muscles in fingers and that they are to be trained and made stronger too) promoted their ideas.

[fnork]

But what's like the biomechanics, physiologic and anatomic principle or reason behind this SLOW "position change". I'm not dismissing it but I need to be explained the reason for something otherwise I tend to doubt it has merit. Promoting certain ideas and techniques without explaining the principles behind them has always been how the finger-centered (those that believed there are important muscles in fingers and that they are to be trained and made stronger too) promoted their ideas.

Danny,
Most of us are taught to change position (or use thumb under) as quick as we can, and it certainly helpful to practice this way, occasionally. However, in performance tempo there is really no need for changing position at that speed. You know Ravels "Ondine", right after the rhythmic figure in the right hand for the first 1 1/2 pages when the right hand has a very difficult pattern moving up and down two octaves at ppp for four bars - your hand is constantly switching position, but if you try to change position too fast, the WHOLE FIGURE will proably sound uneven - it did for me. The problem with this figure is that you try to move on to the next position (very fast) before having finished playing all of the notes in the previous position, and therefore, the sound becomes uneven. If you instead try to find EXACTLY THE RIGHT MOVEMENT for this figure, without any rushing, you will find that you can achieve this evenness. You will achieve it thanks to moving from position to position only as fast AS NECESSARY, not faster (or slower). Hope this makes sense...

[danny elfboy]

Danny,
Most of us are taught to change position (or use thumb under) as quick as we can, and it certainly helpful to practice this way, occasionally. However, in performance tempo there is really no need for changing position at that speed. You know Ravels "Ondine", right after the rhythmic figure in the right hand for the first 1 1/2 pages when the right hand has a very difficult pattern moving up and down two octaves at ppp for four bars - your hand is constantly switching position, but if you try to change position too fast, the WHOLE FIGURE will proably sound uneven - it did for me. The problem with this figure is that you try to move on to the next position (very fast) before having finished playing all of the notes in the previous position, and therefore, the sound becomes uneven. If you instead try to find EXACTLY THE RIGHT MOVEMENT for this figure, without any rushing, you will find that you can achieve this evenness. You will achieve it thanks to moving from position to position only as fast AS NECESSARY, not faster (or slower). Hope this makes sense...

Okay, but:
FAST position change is required to obtain a legato when the speed is fast.
When the speed is fast the thumb literally moves horizontally in switching position and a fast movement is necessary to obtain a legato.
SLOW position change can only be obtained by the "passing of the thumb under".
"Passing under" with the thumb can only be used efficiently and is required at slow speed.
The lateral motion of the thumb on the other hand is very unefficient at fast speed and there's less delay between contraction so it is causes of strain and uneveness.

So it's not like there are two options but different and exclusive approaches for two different circumstances.

Also if you practice switching position slow chances are you'll keep having problems switching position fast at performance. In fact because you'll be tempted to just increase the speed of the slow switching you'll end up concracting more rather than adjusting the movement for fast speed meaning more tension and pain and more uneveness.

Changing position shouldn't be practiced too fast or too slow, it should be practiced at performance speed so as to ingrain the coordination of performance.
A way to do this while maintaning eveness is to play what you have to play on that zone of the keyboard then move at performance speed to the first note belonging to another zone in the keyboard and instead of playing it , just wait above the note before depressing it.

In other words you can move from note to note (when the interval is very big or there a switch in keyboard area) by releasing the first note and quickly covering the second note but waiting above it to play it until the proper time has elapsed.

[ramseytheii]

I offer this detailed post of Bernhard, not to affirm or contradict, but to see the interesting replies.
----Accurate description probably not possible. Best way is to have someone (who knows what they are talking about) to show you. I will give it a try.

1.      Place your right hand on the desk in front of you (I am assumning you are at the computer so it would be a drag to go forth and back to the piano), pretending is a keyboard. Keep your fingers parallel to the keys, slightly arched as you would do. Now  - without moving anything else, fingers, hands, wrists, forearms, or arms – move your thumb top the right, under your hand. How far can you reach? It will be different for different people. It will depend how long is your thumb (mine is not very long), and how flexible your thumb joint is (I am extremely flexible). I can actually move my thumb so much under my hand (without moving anything else) that its tip appears on the other side. Notice that although you may kike to call this a “lateral” or “sideways” movement of the thumb, it is actually a “vertical” movement of the thumb, completely analogous to the vertical movement of the remaining four fingers. This is important. So let me say a bit more about it. The other four fingers when playing, go “up and down” if we take the nail and finger pad as reference points. Likewise, if you take the nail and fingerpad as reference points, the thumb movement when going under the hand is also “up and down”. It only looks “sideways” because the thumb opposes the other fingers. Anyway, this is the “thumb under” movement in splendid isolation.
2.      Now let us try to do the same thing but bringing the thumb over the hand. If you do not move anything but the thumb, it will be nearly impossible. With all my thumb flexibility, I hardly manage to bring it over the second finger. So, as you correctly surmised, you cannot have a “thumb over” movement in isolation.
3.      Now let us return to the thumb under movement. This time you are allowed to rotate your arm as you pass the thumb under. You can accomplish that by fixing one of the other four fingers on the desk/keyboard) and pivoting the hand on that finger. Try it with the second finger held firmly in place, then the third finger, then the fourth finger, then the fifth finger. Your elbow will most likely rise, but it is possible to limit the movement to a rotation of the forearm, so that the elbow is barely involved. Pivoting on the third and fourth finger are the most used in orthodox scale and arpeggio playing, but pivoting on the second is also common, with pivoting on the fifth finger being the least used. By adding this extra movements on other parts of the arms, bringing the thumb under becomes far more negotiable (as compared with moving the thumb in isolation). What about doing that with the thumb over?
4.      If you roll your whole hand (engaging the arm and forearm to help), it is now possible (although extremely awkward) to bring the thumb over the hand. But why would anyone want to go through this trouble? So we must add another movement to it: we must get the other fingers out of the way. If as you turn your hand you retrieve your fingers (like in making a fist), not only you will be able to pass your thumb over, as you will be playing with the pad of the thumb (as opposed to the side of the thumb). But you may also notice that a lot of arm-forearm and even shoulder movement will be involved to accomplish this strange and still awkward movement.
5.      Now let us try another set of movements. The logic behind this next set of movements goes as follows: the best (more efficient) movement for the thumb is “sideways” that is the side of the thumb hits the key – not the finger pad. Likewise, the most efficient movement to the other four fingers is “up and down”, that is the nail is uppermost and the finger pad hits the keys. When bringing the thumb under the hand, or over the hand (as described in item 4) the thumb is immediately in a disadvantage in regards to its most efficient manner of playing. However, if you slant your hand to the right (anywhere from 30 to 60 degrees) in relation to the keys (before you were keeping your fingers parallel to the keys, remember?) then there is no need for the thumb to go under the hand any more. Likewise. If you slant the hand to the left, the thumb can easily go over the hand (it will not really “go over” because the hand is no more there). And best of all, in both cases (under or over) the thumb will be hitting the keys on the side, which is the most efficient way.
6.      Finally, keep your hand parallel to the keys again. This time simply move your hand sideways so that the thumb hits the next note in its best position. For instance if you are playing the C major scale, play CDE (fingers parallel to the keys), then reposition your hand on FGAB, and play the F with the thumb.

There are more possibilities than the ones described above, but these are the major ones. So what should we conclude from the above?

a.      Thumb under and thumb over are linguistic shortcuts at best and misleading misnomers at worst. The movements involve far more than the thumb, and in particular item 6 is really about elbow and upper arm movements, and not at all about fingers.
b.      The movements described are almost never used in the isolation described. Most likely a combination of them will be used (you will be slanting your hands, rotating the forearms, moving laterally and passing the thumb over or under at the same time and at different degrees).
c.      Most important, the specific combination of co-ordinations will depend on your physical capabilities (everyone has different hands which cannot be changed – and suppleness capabilities which can be improved to a certain extent), and of the particular musical effect you are trying to convey.

Therefore, practice has to be divided in two stages: Stage 1 is investigation and exploration of the best co-ordinations/movements – given your personal limitations – for the musical expression of the particular passage you are working on. Stage 2 – Ingraining into your subconscious the best you could come up with in stage 1.

Thumb under is essential for slow passages that must be rendered legato. Thumb over is essential for fast passages, where the complications of bringing the thumb under the hand would result in jerky playing. But ultimately, you must have a very clear idea on how a passage must sound, and keep experimenting with different sets of movements until you find the one that conveys it the best.

I hope this helps.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.
----

[virtuosic1]

Unfortunately, the thumb is the exception rather than the rule as a finger. Whether over the index finger or under the index finger, and every other permutation of range of motion possible, the only RAPID, repeatable movement of the thumb that is PRACTICAL for striking keys in conjunction with the other fingers is with a motion perpendicular to the keys, the thumb either positioned just under the relative position of the index finger or some point immediately to the left side of the index finger. You don't use the thumb to strike keys in rapid passages with the pad of the fingertip, as though jutting out, poking, or stabbing at the keys. Normal thumb strikes occur with the edge of the thumb. The fingers are brought to the key strikes vertically through a hinged action of the knuckle. The thumb is ROTATED to the keys in order to depress them similarly to the vertical downstrike of the other fingers. This is the way the thumb articulates the correct angle of downward motion to successfully depress keys in rapid successive coordination with the other fingers.  Drawing the thumb way under the fingers BEYOND the perpendicular level of the index finger is cumbersome, fatiguing, and disadvantageous, fully detrimental to relaxation, ergo velocity. Anything that works against logical, normal bio-mechanics by creating more tension in the playing mechanism than is necessary will be counterproductive.

The hand should carry the fingers to where they are needed. The hands should always be in motion, not moved jerkily in lateral motion. The hand acts the same way that a typewritter carriage does to bring the striking keys to the next location along the way in the mechanical production of sentences and musical phrases.

I haven't seen it discussed, but the entire body has an active role in this. Anyone who sits motionless at the piano isn't utilizing the entire playing mechanism. Try a simple experiment. Take off your shirt and set up a mirror in front of the piano. Watch your shoulders and pectoral muscles as you play. You'll see constant flexion. Adduction and abduction, everytime you must move the hands. Becoming more aware of what is involved in your playing mechanism will make you more aware of how to maximize your mechanical potential.

[farm boy]

I have just bought the Liszt Technical Studies.  Its confusing.  Does anyone know how to use it - in particular to strengthen 4th and 5th fingers in LH - which Studies for this?

[farm boy]

I have just acquired the Liszt Tech Exercises Book.  Can anyone tell me how to use it.  In particular I am looking to srengthen my 4th and 5th fingers on my LH.  What exercises does he have for this?