When and how do you teach legato

[lallasvensson]

Hello
At the moment i tend to be obsessed by legato playing.
Tell me everything about the topic.
How to play legato on a slow phrase - on a rapid scale - legato between notes not connected and requiring a jump - finger legato in viennese classical piece- use of the pedal for the legato - legato and use of arm weight -

Dont explain to me that you teach legato with color games or stickers. i want only serious answers. thank you.

[Hmoll]

There are numerous description of how to play/teach legato. One that comes to mind in the American pianist Gieseking, and his teacher Leimer's book "Piano Technique." I think he devotes about 1/2 a chapter on teaching legato in the context of the Bach Cmaj 2 part invention. If you have not read the book, let me know, and I can send you that section.

Note: Again, I am not a professional teacher. This is how it was taught to me, and this is how I've coached, and taught others, but before I go on, your approach depends on the age and coordination of your students. Very young students may not have the finger strength or coordination for playing legato yet.

The two main issues in piano playing are 1) overlap of notes, and 2) decay of sound once a note is played.

- Start with the definition of legato - connected, smooth, etc.
- Demonstrate what it should sound like, and ask your student to play a scale - or 5 finger exercise - legato. If they can, great. In that case all you have to do is improve the sound - more overlap or tones, less overlap, more even, whatever.
- If the student is not playing legato well, explain the concept of overlapping notes. You may have to use imagery, for example walking - you can't lift up your left foot until your right foot is on the ground, etc.
- Start "small" two fingers at first. Try to get a smooth legato with just 1,2,1,2,1,2…. Then try 1,2,3,2,1,2,3,2,1…then 1,2,3,4,3,2,1,2,3,4,3,2,1, etc.
- Emphasize transferring weight to each finger.
- Once you go through this with left and right hands, try scales.
- Take passages of classical sonatas and break them into small sections, emphasize shaping the melody - which enhances the legato. In a lot of Mozart and Haydn, many people use an articulation where you pull back the second joint of the fingers - i.e. your fingertips pull back toward your wrist. This creates a very short staccato, which you need in a lot of that music. Instead, for legato, use a more downward approach, and less of a pull.

In terms of notes that require a jump, the concept of acoustical attack, sustain and decay of piano sound is important. If you play a note, it sustains for a moment, and begins to decay. In order for a slow passage with skips to sound legato, the subsequent notes need to match the level of the dynamic of the preceding note taking into account the decay.

Legato is a difficult concept, and a lot of kids have trouble with it. Even when they understand it, some don't realize the importance of it.

It is an aural concept, as well as tactile. By that, I mean they have to know what it sounds like, and what it feels like.

It may take creativity, patience, and ability to employ imagery for teachers to get some students to get it.

Demonstration exercise - play the beginning of the Chopin second Ballade with pedal, and not finger legato, then play it with pedal and finger legato. See if they can tell which is which without watching you.

Bernhard will - hopefully -  chime in soon.

[lallasvensson]

Thank you for your post. Yes i  read  the Gieseking chapter in my young years. But still legato is full of mystery for me.

I am not really convinced by overlapping notes (although still experimenting daily). Would like to hear other people s comments about that.

This usually creates some other problems (dissonances and so on) as pedalling does when wrongly used.
I believe much more in arm weight in connection to flexible wrist and elbows and flatter fingers.
Yes indeed legato cannot be played by 5 years old, it usually comes in the 7th year (again, only generalities). Before that age, the finger strength is not developed enough.

[Hmoll]

In terms of overlapping, you're right, it can be too "mushy" a sound. It depends on the piano, though. A very bright piano requires more overlap, a larger, more resonant piano will require little. So, the issue is more or less overlap. I think it is an important component to legato playing though.
You are right about weight, wrist, slightly flatter fingers, too - I just didn't have time to post all that.

If you take the way many people play Viennese Classical music - Walter Klien, e.g. - they tend to emphasise staccato, especially with fast passage work.

[lallasvensson]

Ok. What about scales which should be played totally legato ?
I usually ask for arm weight and slight accent on the first note, fingers close to the keys, wrist from down to up in downwards scales, opposite in upwards scales and crescendo or diminuendo depending on whether the scale is upwards or downwards.
Other ideas?

[Hmoll]

Ok. What about scales which should be played totally legato ?
I usually ask for arm weight and slight accent on the first note, fingers close to the keys, wrist from down to up in downwards scales, opposite in upwards scales and crescendo or diminuendo depending on whether the scale is upwards or downwards.
Other ideas?

My first teacher was American, and got her MM in piano performance from a US conservatory, and what you described is exactly how I was taught. fingers close to the keys. Arm weght is strictly coordinated with the notes you play. Playing to the bottom of the keybed. Also, varying articulation - staccato in left, legato in right.  Varying curvature of fingers to find what degree of "flatness" produces the required legato without sacrificing clarity.
Also, I was always taught, and I believe, that you hear each hand better if you play scales in 10ths or 6ths.
Finally h.s. scale practice is important.

[bernhard]

Bernhard will - hopefully -  chime in soon.

Actually, have you ever though of using colours? he he I am just joking (Sorry, I couldn't resist... )

Seriously now.

I think Hmoll pretty much covered it all. (I even learned a thing or two )

I would only add that legato in the piano is really an illusion, like a magic trick. You somehow have to persuade your listeners that you are doing true magic, but it is of course all a trick (for real legato, check out the organ).

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[Hmoll]

I think Hmoll pretty much covered it all. (I even learned a thing or two )

Sorry, Bernhard, what did you say? I was just checking the weather report from Hades. They are expecting snow.

[bernhard]

Sorry, Bernhard, what did you say? I was just checking the weather report from Hades. They are expecting snow.

It has just stopped snowing here. Everything is white. Have to go out and build snowmen! (the kids are pulling me!)

[green]

wrist from down to up in downwards scales, opposite in upwards scales

Really? I seem to do the opposite... :-/

[reinvent]

I'm just curious - how much time to most of you think should be spent on arm positions, arm weight, etc. while learning scales?
Maybe I'm not doing it right then.
I mainly focus on the fingering and evenness of each note.
All advice is welcome.

[DarkWind]

I was taught in a cunning but tricky way. I don't know if anyone else has learned it, but I began with portato playing, which meant take your hand up, then just let it fall to the key. The first few lessons went on like this, but I didn't like it, as it was tiring. Then we finally started to learn normally, and she showed me how much of a difference there was between that and legato. I quickly got the concept.

[reinvent]

Darkwind,
Do you mean you picked up your hand at every note for portato?

[bernhard]

I'm just curious - how much time to most of you think should be spent on arm positions, arm weight, etc. while learning scales?
Maybe I'm not doing it right then.
I mainly focus on the fingering and evenness of each note.
All advice is welcome.

It is very easy (and tempting) to spend a lot of time on the minutiae of physical movements and positions and so on.

I do not believe this is necessary at all.

Far more important is to develop a very accurate aural image, that is to have in one’s mind a precise representation of the sound one wants to achieve. If the sound in one’s mind is clear, the arms/forearms/hands/fingers etc. will comply.

Most student who have awkward or clumsy movements (and generally inappropriate moments) are so busy concentrating on the movements that tey forget to pay attention to the sound they are producing. With children it is also common that they actually enjoy the sound they are producing even though it may be to loud, or too harsh, or rhythmically uneven. They are so excited that they are actually playing that any coarse interpretation is not only acceptable but positively great.

Rather than spend time trying to correct faulty movements and physical positions, it is far better to spend time refining the student’s perception of sound and of what is required.

Years ago, I gave one of my adult students in his first week a CD compilation of several pianists playing the piece he wanted to learn. He listened to it and could not understand why I had given him the same piece repeated several times. I was intrigued. He sincerely could not distinguish between the different interpretations. His aural sensitivity was very coarse, even though some of the interpretations were radically different. It took him almost six months to develop enough sensitivity to be able to spot different interpretations, which he eventually did. He told me he could not believe that he could not hear such differences at first (No one is born knowing these things – just like wine tasting, one needs to train one’s perception).

Correcting movements is useless until such refined perception has been cultivated. And once it has, the movements will pretty much correct themselves.

It is also important to remember that “correct” movement actually encompass a range of possibilities (that will depend on the persons physicality and on the technical/musical requirements of the piece/passage). So a fast scale will have different requirements from a slow one for instance.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.