Elitist

[comme_le_vent]

Is classical music for everyone, or just an elite class of society?

[schnabels_grandson]

Classical music is for anyone who makes it their own.

[comme_le_vent]

some people avoid- or are attracted to classical music because of it's stereotypically high-cass audience, what do you guys think about this?

and do you think that classical music should be promoted differently to people - in particular children - or should we leave things as they are - with an ever declining amount of people who liszten to it?

[Hmoll]

high-cass audience

Having seen a lot of classical audiences, I don't know if your typo should read "high-class" or "high-crass."

Classical music is beautiful. Beauty should be experienced by everyone. Why would it not be appropriate to expose, teach, or "promote" classical music to children?

[rlefebvr]

I don't know about High Class or Low Class, but I learned my Classics like every other child in America.....Watching Bugs Bunny.

:-)

Sad, but true.
Greatest thing that ever happened to Classical music is Bugs Bunny.

[faulty_damper]

I hate classical music.  It's boring.  I like Britney Spears. Her boobs are sometimes big.

There's no sex appeal in classical music.  Pianists look ugly.

...

Having said this, I didn't like classical music because all the classical music I heard were Mozart and sporadic Bugs Bunny theme music.  I still hate Mozart.

Classical music is for the sophisticated only.  Pop is for the unsophisticated as pop is easy to access, easy to listen to without having an attention span longer than the 4 minutes, 32 seconds of a pop song.  Pop music is simplistic.  Requires less skill to perform and is mostly selling an image, not the music as art, itself.

[Noah]

Is classical music for everyone, or just an elite class of society?

Classical music is for an intellectual elite. The fact that less and less people listen to proper classical music only reflects the intellectual decline of society. I am 100% for exposing and teaching classical music to children, but not by exposing them to the likes of Maksim or to Classic FM compilations.

[comme_le_vent]

really? an intellectual elite?
there is nothing intellectual about my love for 'classical' music.
most people say classical music is boring.
why do you think that is?
and how do you convert them?

[Noah]

really? an intellectual elite?
there is nothing intellectual about my love for 'classical' music.
most people say classical music is boring.
why do you think that is?
and how do you convert them?

Not everyone can appreciate classical music, just like not everyone can appreciate, say, Nietzsche. Most people think classical music is boring because they're unable to appreciate it... and you don't 'convert' them, they should come to it themselves. Honestly, I'm sick of those campaigns aiming to 'bring classical music to a wider public' or people who say I should criticise Maksim because 'at least he brings a new public for classical music', people who call pieces 'songs' etc.
Ok, I got off subject, but the point I want to make is that classical music is more intellectual and of a higher quality than other types of music, just like Camus' works are more intellectual and of a higher quality compared to Barbara Cartland's novels.

[Hmoll]

Not everyone can appreciate classical music, just like not everyone can appreciate, say, Nietzsche. Most people think classical music is boring because they're unable to appreciate it... and you don't 'convert' them, they should come to it themselves. Honestly, I'm sick of those campaigns aiming to 'bring classical music to a wider public' or people who say I should criticise Maksim because 'at least he brings a new public for classical music', people who call pieces 'songs' etc.
Ok, I got off subject, but the point I want to make is that classical music is more intellectual and of a higher quality than other types of music, just like Camus' works are more intellectual and of a higher quality compared to Barbara Cartland's novels.

I am diametrically opposed to that view. It is blindingly obvious that not everyone will appreciate or like classical music. However, without promoting it or exposing both children and adults to it, there will be huge blocks of people whose lives will never have been enriched by music. Listening to classical music is not the same as reading Nietzsche or Sartre. There are different levels where people appreciate great music. Some think of it as intellectual. Some want to analyze it. Some listen to it because they like the tune. No one has the right to say whether someone's love for music is or is not intellectual enough. That is an elitist attitude. Take a look at a video of Horowitz's return to Moscow recital. Look at the audience. The hall was jam-packed with people from all walks of life from very young to very old. They did not strike me as a particularly intellectual bunch, yet they came together for an incredible musical event that they will always remember.

Great art and music enriches us as people. It makes us better .Because of this people should have the opportunity to be exposed to it. Children should receive music as part of their education.

With a few exceptions, the people who post here are not particularly intellectual, and I'm not trying to be a snob here (I include myself). How many people who post here about playing Chopin Ballades ever even read Adam Mickiewicz?   How many people know what key the prelude to Tristan begins in? That is not meant as a put down to anyone, but if we are not really intellectuals here or incredibly sophisticated about music, then who are we to begrudge the motives of other average people and their love for music, or the motives of people who want to bring music to a wider audience.

[Hmoll]

  Maksim or to Classic FM compilations.

BTW, I agree with you on this. Watered down classical music is not music.

[nad]

Classical music is for an intellectual elite. The fact that less and less people listen to proper classical music only reflects the intellectual decline of society. I am 100% for exposing and teaching classical music to children, but not by exposing them to the likes of Maksim or to Classic FM compilations.

Totally agree here.

[comme_le_vent]

maksim makes music, but its not classical.

i listen to classical music alot, and all music in general too, i wouldnt call myself an intellectualist, more like a sensualist....
the reason for classical music's decline in popularity is simple - pop music is BETTER music for most people.
most people dont have enough of a love for music to be patient enough to let their ears adapt to a new style, or adapt to larger structures and more complex harmonies, melodies and rhythms.
classical music isnt for an intellectual elite at all, it is for anyone who can enjoy music without dancing or singing along.

pop musis is much much more appealing to most people, and its not because they are stupid or unintelligent - its because they simply arent musical enough.

as a person who grew up listening to rock and pop etc... i have a greater understanding of the appeal of both classical and pop - from an objective perspective.
classical music used to be more popular because people were cultured into it - they were socially obligated to listen- to go to concerts.
this is why some people think of classical music as high class and pretentious - because of the rich people who used to be its only audience.
now that everyone is free to listen to pop, and very few people are obligated to listen to classical, people are- for the most part-only going to listen to what they want.

yet still, i believe more people COULD enjoy classical music nowadays if they were convinced of it's virtues in a non-condescending and unpretentious way.

ill let this conversing continue and add more view later.........

[allchopin]

How many people who post here about playing Chopin Ballades ever even read Adam Mickiewicz?   How many people know what key the prelude to Tristan begins in?

Is this relevant to being an intellectual person?  No, not at all.  Suppose you read the author's works and you pawn his ideas off as your own.  Then you memorize every fact of every piece ever written- again, just verbatim memorization.  This is not intellect.  I think part of intellect is the utilization and combination of both knowledge and creativity to produce insight.  Classical music has been proven to increase these levels of insight in people, thereby increasing intellect.  Thus, I think that if anything, it is the so-called 'lower class' of society that needs classical exposure in order to bring them up, intellectually, with the rest of the world.  Other musical genres are also necessary in order to provide the mind with variety and contrasting sounds.  

[Hmoll]

Is this relevant to being an intellectual person?  No, not at all.  Suppose you read the author's works and you pawn his ideas off as your own.  Then you memorize every fact of every piece ever written- again, just verbatim memorization.  This is not intellect.  I think part of intellect is the utilization and combination of both knowledge and creativity to produce insight.  Classical music has been proven to increase these levels of insight in people, thereby increasing intellect.  Thus, I think that if anything, it is the so-called 'lower class' of society that needs classical exposure in order to bring them up, intellectually, with the rest of the world.  Other musical genres are also necessary in order to provide the mind with variety and contrasting sounds.  

What I posted is one example of approaching music in an intellectual way. I don't agree that listening to classical music by default increases you intellectually. It depends on how you listen. Nor do I believe that classical music necessarily should increase people intellectually. I think a lot of people listen to Mozart because of the nice melodies. There's nothing wrong with that.

In terms of the relevance of reading the poems that many people believe Chopin based his Ballades on, it is essential for an sort of understanding of these works. As is reading Jean Paul if you want to play Papillons.

Again, I am not putting people down here, but for the most part, I don't see much of an intellectual approach to music here. If it's in short supply here, then who is anyone to say music should only be intended for some sort of intellectual elite. I don't believe that.

[Noah]

I hate classical music.  It's boring.  I like Britney Spears. Her boobs are sometimes big.

Could you explain the "sometimes" ?

I do think that listening to classical music during childhood and make it part of education greatly affects the way an individual develops intelectually.
When I say that classical music is intellectual, I mean intellectually challenging... and that's why most people can't appreciate it. What comme_le_vent called impatience, I call lack of a certain intellectual capacity, of an ability to listen and appreciate.
I don't like analysing the music I listen to, but I think the fact that I'm able to appreciate it means in a way that my brain automatically analyses the music for me and makes it easy to understand. I don't think it is necessary to read books to understand most music, though a little background knowledge is necessary for some works (e.g. Shostakovich's), but in the end it should all come naturally out of personal curiosity and interest.

[allchopin]

I don't agree that listening to classical music by default increases you intellectually.

Hmm, well it has been proven (especially in kids).  I would have to say check out some studies done about children listening to Mozart.  Their spatial reasoning increases, and capacity to learn even expands.  Regarding actually playing an instrument, motor skills are also grown.

I don't see much of an intellectual approach to music here. If it's in short supply here, then who is anyone to say music should only be intended for some sort of intellectual elite.

Again, this is irrelevant.  I don't think it matters how intelligent you are to say that someone should or should not listen to certain musical genres.  What I inferred from the word 'If' is that if we did try to be more intellectual about our discussions (which I am all for), then we would suddenly have different rights (disregarding free speech for a moment).  

[Hmoll]

Hmm, well it has been proven (especially in kids).  I would have to say check out some studies done about children listening to Mozart.  Their spatial reasoning increases, and capacity to learn even expands.  Regarding actually playing an instrument, motor skills are also grown.

You are confusing intelligence with being intellectual. They're not the same. Also, many of those studies have been refuted. Bad news for the parents that pipe Mozart into the crib, but never bother to give their kids music lessons or take them to concerts after they are out of diapers.

Again, this is irrelevant.  I don't think it matters how intelligent you are to say that someone should or should not listen to certain musical genres.

I totally agree.

[allchopin]

You are confusing intelligence with being intellectual. They're not the same.

Feel free to expound... dictionary.com thinks they are the same.  I think I know what you mean though, but being intelligent will allow more ability to be intellectual.

[nad]

There's no sex appeal in classical music.  Pianists look ugly.

I must say i have seen some rather sexy and goodlooking pianists who are actually really good. Their playing makes them even more sexy lol

[comme_le_vent]

When I say that classical music is intellectual, I mean intellectually challenging... and that's why most people can't appreciate it. What comme_le_vent called impatience, I call lack of a certain intellectual capacity, of an ability to listen and appreciate.

i didnt say it was completely impatience, i said its a lack of musicality - there is a part of the brain that processes music, the greater the ability of this part of the brain - the greater their musicality.

by the way you phrase your sentences you seem to imply that your talking about intellect in a traditional sense.
there people who have extremely low general intelligence who enjoy classical music to its fullest.
the only things a more intelligent person can appreciate that they cant - are extra-musical.
so the greater the musicality of the individual, the greater their ability is to appreciate all music.
i still defend my point - that if some people were more patient - they could appreciate classical music better. some people were brought up with music of greater instant gratification, yet they still may be very musical, if they just understood that you need more patience to listen to classical music, then they would reap the rewards.

[comme_le_vent]

musicality can be divided into 2 areas - rhythmic(relations of time and accents too), and pitch(relations of pitch).
some people are great at one, and bad at the other, some people are great at both , some people are crap at both.
the greater the individual's brain's profieciancy at processing these areas - the greater their musicality.

just had to clarify that.

mainstream classical music(bach, mozart) is very rich harmonically - moreso than just about any popular music. so if that person has a good sense of pitch, they should be able to appreciate it(of course im ignoring social pressures and the individual's temperament and attitute).

people listen to classical music in a completely different way than to pop.
a major part of pop music's appeal is the 'beat', this type of danceable metronomic beat is nowhere to be found in classical music. you simply cant shake your booty to classical music.
but there is much rhythmic pleasure to be found in classical music - albeit in a more subtle and complex way.

above all things- if an open minded person is to be introduced to classical music - expain that it requires patience, and a radically different type of listening. but that in the end, it is more than worth the effort.

[allchopin]

musicality can be divided into 2 areas - rhythmic(relations of time and accents too), and pitch(relations of pitch).

What about volume, and extraneous uses of the piano, such as pedalling and plucking?

this type of danceable metronomic beat is nowhere to be found in classical music. you simply cant shake your booty to classical music.

Sure there is- what do you think the word 'Polonaise' means?  Or Mazurka?  Or the Waltz?  They are based off of (w/ Chopin, Polish) dances, that people could easily palpitate their posteriors to.


My theory about how one begins to like classical music is how they were first introduced to it.  If they were, for instance, forced to listen to it, or play it, then chances are they will not like it in the future (like post-traumatic stress disorder!- but not).  But if they heard it in a fun way, and had good memories associated with the music, they are going to cling to it.

[squinchy]

Erm..may I interject?

One of the reasons that not many kids are accepting classical music is because it's not "cool." Schools don't exactly stress it either; you see all the football players as the big men on campus with all the 'cool' cheerleaders [gag] on their arms, but since when have you seen that happen to the concertmaster of the orchestra or the president of the piano club? Due to slashed budgets, most schools don't even have an orchestra, much less a piano club.

I'm lucky enough to live in an area where people respect intellegence and classical music..or at least the smart/musical people aren't beaten up. We have a nice sized band/choir/string program, and a good sized chunk of the student body can say [without exaggeration] that they play the piano. I say without exaggeration because some people consider a botched version of "Heart and Soul" or that knuckle rolling thing 'playing the piano.' Most of the band/choir/string people do enjoy classical music.

Enough about the good happy stuff. What about the inner city, urban areas? I've never lived in one, but I have lived in a poor part of an urban fringe. I was quite young at the time, and one of the only things I could really remember was how rap was blasted. Everywhere. It filled your ears on the bus, on the streets, in the grocery store. I don't think I've ever head a note of classical music in a public setting in that area, except in the music room at school. The teacher had a big happy face on the wall named "FACE" and a plush duck named "EGBDF." We'd play the xylophones and glockenspiels, but only once every two weeks. There were no music assemblies or band/choir/string programs. I also remembered how there would be large people in the center of a large crowd, surrounding a smaller person, usually with a backpack and a pair of glasses. If that was the attitude towards scholarliness, the attitude towards classical music can be imagined.  

Looking at nationwide statistics, I find myself in awe at how relatively well off my area is. I imagine that others stereotype us as the rich snobs. It was reported that at a football game (that I wasn't at), the opposing crowd had signs that said, "Warm up your Lexus and GO HOME!" If not even everyone in my area has a basic enjoyment of classical music at a juvenile age, what about the nation in general?

In conclusin, I don't think that classical music is FOR an elite class, but it just happens to take root in "elite" classes more easily. The soil is softer and friendlier, and there aren't very many weeds. However, classical music should be in every garden, for it enriches the landscape.

[sorry about the length!]

Squinchy

[newsgroupeuan]

Erm..may I interject?

One of the reasons that not many kids are accepting classical music is because it's not "cool." Schools don't exactly stress it either; you see all the football players as the big men on campus with all the 'cool' cheerleaders [gag] on their arms, but since when have you seen that happen to the concertmaster of the orchestra or the president of the piano club? Due to slashed budgets, most schools don't even have an orchestra, much less a piano club.

I concur.

Reminds me of a time which one of my friends was looking though my sheet music:  "Don't you play anything interesting?"

A lot of people in my area have not listened to any classical ever.

[comme_le_vent]

my previous post have dealt with my opinions on the MUSICAL reasons for people liking classical music and not.

you seem to be concentrating now on the social and environmental reasons.

classical music isnt cool?
classical music isnt for normal people?
classical music is for people of a higher culture?

why do you all think this is??
what is so uncool about classical music???

perhaps the shunning of extramusical appeal?
eg - sex appeal , and cool lifestyle appeal(think of rockstars), and fame and fortune?

classical music's purity has contributed to its unpopularity.

i, myself am all for crossbreeding musical genres, but not when it sucks(ie maksim).
is this the way forward? to lose purity?

and what about image and sex appeal?
people like nigel kennedy have used interesting images as promotional tools.
is this also the way forward?

what about the concerts themselves - should the archaic dress tradition continue?
what about etiquette? should people be allowed to stand or feel less restricted - or even cheer - during a concert?

the way forward, is this??

[comme_le_vent]

and britney spears' boobs - i think they used to seem bigger - but she probably used special breast enhancers.

[squinchy]

my previous post have dealt with my opinions on the MUSICAL reasons for people liking classical music and not.

you seem to be concentrating now on the social and environmental reasons.

classical music isnt cool?
classical music isnt for normal people?
classical music is for people of a higher culture?

why do you all think this is??
what is so uncool about classical music???

perhaps the shunning of extramusical appeal?
eg - sex appeal , and cool lifestyle appeal(think of rockstars), and fame and fortune?

classical music's purity has contributed to its unpopularity.
--snip--
and what about image and sex appeal?
people like nigel kennedy have used interesting images as promotional tools.
is this also the way forward?

what about the concerts themselves - should the archaic dress tradition continue?
what about etiquette? should people be allowed to stand or feel less restricted - or even cheer - during a concert?

Why, yes, I was concentrating on social and enviromental reasons. However, I don't really agree that those are the ways foward. Classical music IS about the music, just as pop/rap is about the image. They don't really sell the music-I mean-With several exceptions, all they sell is their picture and a CD with their computerized warbling/speaking.

I just think that classical music wouldn't be the same if it started becoming just like pop. Personally, I, as a female, would be disgusted or at least shocked if a [female] concert pianist wore a tiny miniskirt and a ridiculous top. Likewise, many BS [that's Britney Spears] aficionados would be shocked if they saw her in a more conservative gown. Many Chingy fans would be weirded out if he started usinc correct grammar and wearing suits during performances.

All the classical music concerts I've been to haven't been that uppity-people were in casual dress, and there was quite a bit of cheering. At a concert featuring one of my friend's mom's friend's daughter, we fifty-some friends and indirect friends of her were as loud as the shrieking girls in the front row of a BSB/NSYNC concert. That's just personal experience..maybe the concertgoers of Woolsey Hall are particularly relaxed.

most people say classical music is boring.
why do you think that is?
and how do you convert them?

I think that's because they've never heard anything REALLY good. Everyone's heard Fur Elise or Adaigo Sostenuto of the Moonlight sonata in an elevator or somewhere, but maybe that's not what touches them personally. I think that if people found a piece that the non-fans really liked, they would open up a little bit. The pieces don't have to be watered down-it could be a really fast baroque sonata or something.

I didn't like rap for a long time. I still don't really like all of it now, just as I don't have a full appreciation of romantic era piano music either. But when I heard Eminem's "Lose Yourself," I was touched, in a weird way. It made my spine shiver. It made me lose focus of what I was doing for a moment. That let me open up.

[faulty_damper]

About Britney Spears's boobs (breasts for you intellectuamal types).

Didn't you see her boobs in that movie she did?  She was wearing a bikini and they were very small, A-cups.  Then she shows up at concerts and they are D cups!  Then for some interview, they are down to B cups.  Then for some talk shows, they are C cups.  Then for other concerts, they grew back up to D cups!!!!

Anyway, about my comment about her boobs:  She's sexy (she's not but don't tell the thirteen year old boys and eight year old girls that).  Because she has what young boys want (boobs) and what girls want (to be like her [have boobs] so boys will like them) she's popular.  Her singing pop songs that are appealing to these pre-preteens and bouncing her concert-enhanced boobs is what makes her popular (part of the reason she stays popular).  If her songs sucked, she'll still be popular (they don't suck?) because she has sex appeal (only in the dark - I can't see in the dark - and only immagining it's someone else).

I remember her first album - it was a pink covering and she looked decent.  Now it's Mrs. D cups.

So what about sex appeal?  Let's look at her contemporary, Mandy Moore.  She attractive,  almost  Britney's sister.  She dyed her hair so she wouldn't be blondish like Spears.  She doesn't bare much skin.  She doesn't have huge boobs - then small - then back up to huge.  She's not as popular anymore; she wasn't as popular even back then.  But Britney was.  Probably because of her oscillating boobs.  Mandy's boobs don't oscillate -  it's always covered by *shock*  a shirt!

Sex appeal.  Classical musicians don't have it.  I mean really great ones, not a woman pianist who just passed the 8th grade exam and a "producer" "found" her because he thinks she could be the next Britney Spears and thus wants to see her boobs oscillate.

Horrowits was real sexy, don't you think, ladies?
Or Kissin.  Women just love his hair.  They show up at his concerts not to hear him play but to see his hair... (Liszt cut off locks of his hair to give to the women.  Then he started running out so he got a dog and cut off its hair to give to them)
Or Lang Lang.  Women just love his facial expressions.

So women pianists:
Agerich - she's sexy, isn't she?  I mean, you fantasize about her      playing your piano      am I right?
I can't think of others right now so Martha stands as my only example.

Sure there have been pretty women pianists but could they play?  Not that great.  But they look good playing not that great, am I right!  Someone on this forum made a comment about two violinists:  one attractive, the other not.  One plays to sold-out crowds, the other to half-empty seats.  One is clearly better than the other.  That one is the latter.

---
Just to re-state myself in words everyone will understand:

If there is ever an attractive woman pianists, and I mean with the lights on and in public hot, and she can't  even play chopsticks with proper tempo, I'd buy her CD.  Just for her picture.

To make classical popular:
Get a hot woman, and I mean with the lights on and in public hot, ... crap, I forgot what I was about to say because of my over-active imagination... something about concerts in a bikini... ... ...  Oh!  And she doesn't even have to know how to play just as long as her looks never fade, and then get her to fake it just like Britney Spears singing "Live" (lip-syncking).  And then market her with a sexy CD cover, sitting on the bench with the angle of photograph from under the piano with a shot between the legs (both the piano legs and her legs) in a see through white dress.  Yeah, I'd buy that CD titled: Plays Chopsticks.  That's a great picture don't you think?  She'll be the woman version of Maksim.  I forgot to mention Maksim under the sexy pianists.  Oh great,  I just ruinned my imagination....

[comme_le_vent]

BEST POST EVER! lol

i noticed that your from san fran - that explains alot - cos u have to be gay to have a sense of humour like that!

[squinchy]

EWW!!!

That makes me fear for the future of mankind. If that's what everyone is so interested in and overpopulation is beginning to become a problem...*shudders* Hawking is going to be wrong about us being shoulder to shoulder by 2050. We'll be overcrowded in 2020...*shudders again*

Personally, if that was how classical music was marketed, don't you think that some mothers who care would cover their children's eyes when they walked past the classical music section in the CD store? My mom would have, and then I'd never be introduced to classical music.

Note that BS's marketing methods doesn't work on certain people. I thought she was a fake idiot when the craze swept the country.

See, when the world is ruined by your fantasies, some of you will be dead. I'll still be alive to see the horror and destruction!

*hides*

[mark1]

My wife can't get into classical  She's very black and white about her musical choices. She says why listen to something that you can't understand? I cringe whenever she says this! :oNone of my friends listen to classical and immediately condemn it when they hear it.

Pop has unfortunately taken over, not all bad, I like to look at britney too. In the end it'll be Bach and chopin that is being played at a recital 200 years from now... not justin or britney! I remind my wife of this often!

As far as bieng intellectual.......why the hell not?! Be proud that it is you who is to carry on the classical repertoire into the future...or something like that.

You need money to listen to pop...
you need a brain to listen to classical.