Species Counterpoint

[mcgillcomposer]

now, mcgillcomposer, given the set of notes that you gave for the cantus firmus - what is the best note combination for the climax with the A bass note 1/2 way through?  what note is the farthest away (and not over an octave) that would best represent a climax.  this note is, i gather, the one that is probably going to be the highest if it is written for the soprano voice against alto.

There is nothing wrong with a spacing that is over an octave, as long as it is not like that all the way through.

For the high A (in the bass) there are quite a few possibilites: C (a 3rd or 10th above), E (5th and MAYBE a 12th above, depending on the rest of the line), F (a 6th above), A (an 8ve above)

Re: which one is best...well, it honestly depends on the rest of the line. For example, someone had an open fifth on the climax, but had used 3rds and 6ths the rest of the time. This is a nice way to highlight the climax (a new sound quality). However, this is not necessary, it is just a nice artistic touch.

BTW, counterpoint, as pedantic as you find this, I have said things that you won't find in a standard counterpoint text. In other words, I've suggested a lot more than simply following "rules".

[mcgillcomposer]

Alright, let's try something in the minor mode. This should allow a larger set of possibilities due to all of the modal inflections available.

New cantus firmus:


A up E up F down E down D up E down C down B down A

Same things apply: transpose at will, and write your line above or below.

[pianistimo]

ok.  key of a minor.  all the chords would be:  i ii dim  III aug  iv  v  VI and vii dim     now - if we want to highlight a major sound at the climax - we could use either V or VI and III aug would be very unusual sounding, right?  now, if we considered tonal centers unimportant - we would probably highlight the V as major instead of minor?  using the G# or sharp 7th - we could also add it into places and then take it away - (as with the major V) since minor scales can be natural, harmonic and melodic.  in fact, adding an occasional sharped sixth would be ok right? F#?

do you consider the F the climax merely as it is the highest note - or is E the climax - being in the middle?

[mcgillcomposer]

ok.  key of a minor.  all the chords would be:  i ii dim  III aug  iv  v  VI and vii dim     now - if we want to highlight a major sound at the climax - we could use either V or VI and III aug would be very unusual sounding, right?  now, if we considered tonal centers important - we would probably highlight the V as major instead of minor?

This line isn't really well-suited to a colour change at the climax because it occurs so early in the line (there is nothing to compare it with yet!). There is also the unique feature of this line that the F can be treated EITHER as a climax or as a neighbour note to a longer climax on the E. The climax in any small piece like this isn't that important either...don't get too caught up on what I said about the other exercise...it was simply a nice touch that I thought I would comment the author on.

Re: the chords...with modal inflections there is a lot more available to you than you've mentioned above. A common modal inflection is major VII...G B natural D.

[pianistimo]

major VII huh? ok.  that would be on the raised G# ?   so G# B# D#?  or the natural 'mode' GBD?  i guess the latter because we aren't raising the seventh in the cantus firmus.  (no B# or D# there).

one thing that is a bit unsettling to me is that we are attempting to pair alto/sop or bass/tenor and that does not give us a full idea of the chord pattern we are following.  can we just go back to full SATB?  that way i can fully state my chord progressions.

also, i'm confused because i thought fux and people like him started first with cantus firmus firmly rooted in the bass for quite some time.  it gives students the feeling that there's something solid that's going to stay the same for a while.  if it were me - i'd keep it there and only move it the following week to the tenor line - and so forth.

and, i thought the next line is automatically the alto or soprano (to compose) - although mozart and many others didn't waste time and just produced the entire SATB all at once.  now bach - because of so much counterpoint - was thinking laterally many times.  especially with the fugues (but he still had to make sure they worked vertically).

if i were teaching a course like this - the first thing i would point out is the 'balance' one is striving for between lateral and vertical.

[mcgillcomposer]

major VII huh? ok.  that would be on the raised G# ?   so G# B# D#?  or the natural 'mode' GBD?  i guess the latter because we aren't raising the seventh in the cantus firmus.  (no B# or D# there).

Right...major VII as in major triad...not #VII 

[pianistimo]

but, the root of the VII in a minor key is sharped.  perhaps the keyword is minor mode vs minor key.  students will need to understand that.

so - not remembering off the top of my head - which mode is A-A  - plagal mode of hypodorian.  W 1/2 WW 1/2 WW

[mcgillcomposer]

but, the root of the VII in a minor key is sharped.

Then it would be written viio

This is only the case in the harmonic and melodic minor version of the scale. The natural minor has a G natural and has a major chord built on this 7th scale degree. We notate this VII.

[pianistimo]

yes - but adding more major chords to a minor mode/key will make it sound more interesting, right?  especially at peak points such as the climax?

now, back to the two ideas. you are saying that a seventh in a MINOR KEY = vii o

but, MINOR MODE = anything you want?  the minor modes, to you, mean the addition of harmonic and melodic modes?  so sharping the seventh would be ok in a mode but not in minor key?

we assume from the cantus firmus that this is in the natural minor key of a.  we could call it the hypodorian mode. 

but, first before the students go to work - they must figure all the chords in each mode:

dorian, phyrigian, lydian, mixolydian

hypodorian, hypophrygian, hypolydian, hypomixolydian

that means - they have to memorize the pattern of whole and 1/2 steps in each and then write chords above to know the choices.


then, there is the problem that we get into with mixing modes.  some composers actually mix keys with modes - but pick other tonal centers than the obvious one.  and some mix several modes at once.  randomly picking two that would give the most chordal choices.

[mcgillcomposer]

yes - but adding more major chords to a minor mode/key will make it sound more interesting, right?  especially at peak points such as the climax?

now, back to the two ideas. you are saying that a seventh in a MINOR KEY = vii o

but, MINOR MODE = anything you want?  the minor modes, to you, mean the addition of harmonic and melodic modes?  so sharping the seventh would be ok in a mode but not in minor key?

we assume from the cantus firmus that this is in the natural minor key of a.  we could call it the hypodorian mode. 

but, first before the students go to work - they must figure all the chords in each mode:

dorian, phyrigian, lydian, mixolydian

hypodorian, hypophrygian, hypolydian, hypomixolydian

that means - they have to memorize the pattern of whole and 1/2 steps in each and then write chords above to know the choices.

Haha...I love your posts.

Just stick with standard modal inflections for now...don't get all hypo on me yet

[pianistimo]

standard modal inflections = a b c d e f g a  and combinations of only those notes?  no accidentals?  that means the peak is E.  no real climax there on minor v.

[mcgillcomposer]

standard modal inflections = a b c d e f g a  and combinations of only those notes?  no accidentals?

Just those plus the raised 6th and 7th if you want.

[pianistimo]

this is like being able to move from the missionary position to something else.  excuse the reference.

perhaps the first thing one needs to do in a counterpoint class is determine various kinds of climaxes.

i'm with you, though, 100%.  i think students have to learn step by step - so if you give them too many choices - they flounder.  i like your idea actually.  tell them exactly what notes and chordal options they have - and then each week - expand the options.  to me - when given too many options at the beginning - it's confusing to understand basic concepts with it. 

perhaps the first week would = all the major/minor keys and modes  - writing out on the board a 'cheat sheet' (having each student get up and write one out)

#1 write all the notes of the scale or mode - add corresponding thirds to make a triad  - draw a circle - write only the notes available in it.

#2 determine a cantus firmus and put baritone and soprano lines together

#3 determine a tenor line to blend with sop and and alto line to blend well with baritone.

#4 give some rules and examples of good and bad blends between alternate voicing (as it is sometimes not checked and sounds horrendous).

#5 check the final product by playing each voice with another.  ie baritone with alto, baritone with soprano, baritone with tenor


about a month into the class move from note-by-note counterpoint to syncopated rhythms - but drop the notes and only use rhythm scoring - with ______________________

______________________

and rhythms measured by bar lines and note heads to measure rhythm only (not on traditional score paper)

[mcgillcomposer]

this is like being able to move from the missionary position to something else.  excuse the reference.

perhaps the first thing one needs to do in a counterpoint class is determine various kinds of climaxes.

This certainly has to be discussed...but it only becomes worth discussing at length when the students begin writing longer pieces. For example, if I have you a 30-note-long  cantus, then it would be a must for conversation.

[pianistimo]

as i see it - you can have a pretty amazing climax in a short amount of time (with a small cantus firmus).  but, it has to have the firmus well established.

seriously, here - i do believe there is such a thing as a really great cantus firmus and one that is difficult to work with.  i think, now that i look at these here - they are fine!  what i mean is too large of leaps within a cantus firmus - or (as they get further along in counterpoint) a lack of choice of interesting notes.


about the leaps - could there be more than a third in some places - or is that a no no?

as i understand what you are teaching - you want to start with a semi-tonal base for your students - and then progress to 'anything goes' at the end of the year (within reason).  perhaps the true place to start is with the cantus firmus itself.  having the students write several of their own.  this makes them take ownership of their ideas.

[mcgillcomposer]

as i see it - you can have a pretty amazing climax in a short amount of time (with a small cantus firmus).  but, it has to have the firmus well established.

seriously, here - i do believe there is such a thing as a really great cantus firmus and one that is difficult to work with.  i think, now that i look at these here - they are fine!  what i mean is too large of leaps within a cantus firmus - or (as they get further along in counterpoint) a lack of choice of interesting notes.


about the leaps - could there be more than a third in some places - or is that a no no?

Certainly...read the corrections to counterpoint's 2 examples...there is a leap of a seventh in one of them...WOW! hehe

You are right...there are good cantus firmi, mediocre ones, and downright bad ones. Fauré and Kochelin have some of the best for tonal and modal counterpoint in my opinion. And re: possibilities...on the first cantus I gave you, I wrote 30 different lines...and there are A LOT more available. The new cantus has even more possibilities...a lot of them very interesting. So don't worry about a lack of options...you're in good hands, I promise : .

[mcgillcomposer]

about a month into the class move from note-by-note counterpoint to syncopated rhythms - but drop the notes and only use rhythm scoring - with ______________________

______________________

and rhythms measured by bar lines and note heads to measure rhythm only (not on traditional score paper)

I like a lot of your ideas...may I steal them? haha

Re: the progression...I would stick to the standard pedagogical progression. It has been used for so long because it truly works.

It goes, more or less, as follows:

2 voices : 1st species, 2nd species, 3rd species, 4th species, 5th species

3 voices:  1st species, 2nd species, 3rd species, 4th species, 5th species

4 voices:  1st species, 2nd species, 3rd species, 4th species, 5th species

Mixed species: 2 voices, 3 voices, 4 voices

5 voices:  1st species, 2nd species, 3rd species, 4th species, 5th species

Canons

Small pieces (Inventions in 2 and 3 parts)

Fugue (which has a whole progression on its own)

[pianistimo]

a lot of students 'get' the harmony - but fail miserably at the counterpoint.  i, for one, used to be scared to use a multiplicity of rhythmic variations (repeating too much) and note durations.  also, i rarely used rests.  so, sure - my idea would be to insert a bit about the progression of easy counterpoint to very difficult.

this would be my idea:  (stealing yours)
to look at various composers and analyze what they have done RHYTHM and VOICE LEADING only.

[mcgillcomposer]

as i see it - you can have a pretty amazing climax in a short amount of time (with a small cantus firmus).  but, it has to have the firmus well established.

seriously, here - i do believe there is such a thing as a really great cantus firmus and one that is difficult to work with.  i think, now that i look at these here - they are fine!  what i mean is too large of leaps within a cantus firmus - or (as they get further along in counterpoint) a lack of choice of interesting notes.


about the leaps - could there be more than a third in some places - or is that a no no?

as i understand what you are teaching - you want to start with a semi-tonal base for your students - and then progress to 'anything goes' at the end of the year (within reason).  perhaps the true place to start is with the cantus firmus itself.  having the students write several of their own.  this makes them take ownership of their ideas.

You're right...the principles I am teaching apply to ANY style of music (tonal or not). I would hold off for at least a while with composing their own cantus firmi...one has to know how to write a decent counterpoint before they can write a good cantus (remember, when writing a cantus, one needs to be able to see the possibilities inherent within it...this is impossible without actually knowing any counterpoint).

[pianistimo]

but that is how they learn.  if they write a bad cantus firmus - then they get stuck with small choices.  if they have to re-write it - then they get more choices.  but, each week within a less and less limited parameter.

here's a site about how to create a cantus firmus:

https://www.listeningarts.com/music/general_theory/species/cf.htm

i'm sure you have many books, too.  it's just a turn-off to me personally to have a cantus firmus given to me.  it's like being told to go brush your teeth.  you are given a very set number of chords by the notes involved.  if you want to maximize your potential - you use the widest range of notes available.  the students would learn this by writing them.  you could discuss the idea of repetition of notes and patterns being very good for melodies and very bad for cantus firmus - unless limited.

take 'canon in D' - who has not puked after listening to it twice.

[mcgillcomposer]

but that is how they learn.  if they write a bad cantus firmus - then they get stuck with small choices.  if they have to re-write it - then they get more choices.  but, each week within a less and less limited parameter.

Good point, but I would prefer that they at least have an IDEA of where to begin. Trust me, even if they start writing their own after doing all of the species in two voices, they will still make errors.

[mcgillcomposer]

https://www.listeningarts.com/music/general_theory/species/cf.htm

I've been to this site before...thanks for reminding me of its existence.

The only thing I don't like about it is the fact that it gives all kinds of stipulations and rules and don't give musical reasons for the rules. I mean, some of the reasons are obvious, but others are not...especially not to a new student.

[mcgillcomposer]

take 'canon in D' - who has not puked after listening to it twice.

Haha...have you seen the comedy skit on Youtube about the canon in D?

[pianistimo]

but, it helps them realize what they are doing is giving themselves options.  for instance, ifyou allow ascending minor 6ths - then you are giving yourself some more room to have a wider tonal pallette in your harmonies above.  and, if you don't limit yourself to 6-7 notes - but a full octave - you also do that.

i will look for the canon in d on u-tube.  i'm sure it has to be the bane of weddings unless you get the version that liapunov wrote.  it's really nice.  someone gave it in the sheet music request thread and i've been working it.

ok.  maybe the students would start with a 'given' cantus firmus - and within DAYS write some of their own.  if this is neglected - i would say a fundamental stone of becoming self-sufficient has been overturned.

looking back on my theory days - i really really enjoyed 'workbooks' too - that keep on ON TRACK.  sometimes new students get off track so easily.  you could almost get started right now on a workbook of your own.  the kind i mean -are the ones that give you multiple choice or fill in the blank/notes.  students often have a time limit for how long they can study for each class.  if given several options (A B C) they can choose what they think is the best - and you can correct the next class up to 70 questions.  (literally re-using the graded papers from last year - and using good/bad examples)

another idea, also - is that there tends to be a three-sectioning out of theory students.  the ones who are interested.  the ones who are taking it for credit.  the ones that do not know why they are there.  to get the ones that do not know why they are there - to start having fun - the fundamentals have to be covered in a way that doesn't make them look stupid.  and, the ones who are taking it for credit - have to be convinced it is fun.  i think the way to do this is to accurately size up each student - and pair them in threes - one who's excited. one who's bored.  one who is oblivious.  let them give a presentation on something or other.

[pianistimo]

perhaps the first page would deal with cantus firmus and singing and how everything is related to voice (at the outset).  to ask who sings or plays an instrument in the class.  and to get some singers or instrumentalists to actually perform some of the things that are composed. 

also, to start out by having an entire cantus firmus available - excepting the penultimate note - which the students would fill in.  explain traditional ways of dealing with this note and non-traditional.  perhaps all the way through the workbook - you could have traditional on the top pages - and untraditional the opposite way - so in effect the book would start over again when turned over (working untraditional the other way).

then deal with the motion rules and mark cantus firmus errors.  the quicker students see them - the more they can deal with ROOT problems.  perhaps if the students are in groups of three - you can have the fast one write out the cantus firmus, the slower one - check it - the last one play it?  just an idea.

i'm always looking for speedy ways to do things.

[pianistimo]

something else that occurred to me, too - is that often students don't see all the 'options'  - i think towards the middle of a workbook - it would be good to have an options page (and basically do what composers do automaticallY) and diagram.  just as one does for writing a paper or anything that is planned by steps.  there must be some good ways to show all the options for something on paper.

color pencils, imo, are necessary to visually see things.  and, don't forget those students whose eyes can't take very small print in workbooks.  make it larger print!  they'll learn faster.

maybe the last part of the workbook would be examples of the composers you mentioned (and others) with areas that are missing.  ask the student to fill it in - and then compare with what the composer did in class.  discuss what process this particular composer likely used.  some were fairly self-taught - and were quite untraditional (ie debussy).  faure, on the other hand, was exceptionally trained wasn't he?  so you get a more 'classical' feel - even in his romantic pieces.  i really like the counterpoint in the 'theme and variations' of his.  you could also discuss why people like the second movement of beethovens emperor concerto.  and, what makes beethoven's 9th so enduring (ode to joy at the end).  why do people find vocal music the most memorable - and why instrumentalists are always attempting to imitate vocal or violin techniques in mastering counterpoint.  the ideas of pitches being slightly sharp going up and slightly flatter going down.

[pianistimo]

this is peripheral - but i often wondered why we never got to ornamentation in counterpoint.  often, students are confused as to where the ornamentation goes in a rhythmic sense.  this would most help piano students.  i always liked it when a theory teacher would say one or two sentences to help a particular instrumentalist or singer.  ornamentation can quickly screw up counterpoint if basic concepts are not understood.

there's a few sites on the internet that are helpful because they write out the ornamentation short-hand - and show where the beats are for particular epochs of music.  seems that the baroque era stressed some 'before the beat' stuff - whereas by the time of mozart and beethoven - you get casual and relaxed playing that isn't worried about the number of times a trill plays - but the 'effect' of the ornamentation by putting it ON the beat and doing a sort of 'wait for the main note' by playing around it.  i feel a sort of nervous energy when i listen to baroque music - and an utter relaxation when listening to classical and romantic.  seems that liszt wrote his ornamentation into the music - that is the easiest way for  pianists to read it.

paganini comes to mind as the 'ultimate' counterpointer.  basically playing with figures as though one can actually play three/four voices on one instrument as one did with bach fugues.  the effect is moving from register to register quickly and pretending that one is three or four different people or ideas at once.

sorry to blab so much - but it all goes back to haydn - because haydn was the papa of everything.  haydn understood what bach was trying to do and put it in layman's language. the more haydn you use - the better your students will comprehend, imo.  haydn was the most methodical person - and one could hardly miss a step with him.  he was also passive-agressive.  look at his 'the creation' - he messed with the forms so much - none of the movments fit traditional classical form.  also, he used counterpoint to actually match words spoken.  and, feelings felt.  in that way - he hearkened back to the modal thinking of the medieval times.  they had to match the latin spoken in the mass.

what i think is a counterpoint peak - is where 'the creation' was translated so well from german to english. 

[pianistimo]

what do you think about a section that only discusses barbershop quartets?  what makes them so appealling?  the fact that the voices are closer in range than the average SATB?  or is it?


here's a pairing of sop and bass with climax at the end instead of hte middle:

sop:   E  B A B low G A high E high A

bass: A  E F dD  upE dC    d B      d A

[Bob]

What's going on in this thread?

(wondering why chords are being discussed in a discussion of counterpoint)

[pianistimo]

bob - you could provide some good insight into counterpoint.  you're a band teacher, right?  when i watched the allentown band the other night - i did briefly think 'how do they play blow, gabriel, blow and know where to come in and exit so precisely.'  that piece is really a difficult piece.  how can they practice with everyone everyday?  they must record the band sessions and practice with them.  is this what they do?

[Bob]

Band music is different than piano.  A lot different.  Each person is just playing one note -- a lot simpler than anything two handed.  The "linear" way it's written can be more challenging -- when they add grace notes, quick/brief runs, double-tongued things, etc.  Maybe some of it can be more complicated rhythmically -- but complicated in that one line. 

And the winds can control volume and attack a lot better than piano can. 

How do they do that?  The music is generally simpler for each person for one.  Band members focus more on a specific set of technical skills -- like getting the articulations consistent, improving tone, cres/desc, etc.  And then they apply that to music -- the music is a lot more readable than piano music.  At least I think -- You're only looking at one line.  After doing that for awhile, you can pretty much sight-read it. 

I'm not putting this very easily.  Mind is frazzled today I guess.  The music is different -- Probably easy enough to sight-read. 

Everyone knows exactly where the are in the music.  If they're not playing, they're counting rests. 

I doubt they're playing everyday.  It depends on the ensemble, but I don't see a lot of adult groups meeting everday.  That's definitely an advantage of the school system, being able to meet daily.  I doubt anyone is practicing along with a recording.  The performers are either able to work it up after a short amount of time or professional enough to sit down and sight-read it at performance level.  I don't know the Allentown group, but I bet they either perform after 1-5 rehearsals. 

The challenges are really in getting the group to "work" together.  The technical difficulty of one piece probably isn't quite what it is in piano -- I mean that very generally.  The parts in band music I've played are extremely simple on piano.  Some of the challenges for wind and percussion are just endurance -- being able to sustain a note or repeat an ostinato for a length of time.  Easy to understand, harder to do -- like if you had a direction to lift a 100lb weight and hold it for 4 seconds.  Easy to understand, harder to do.

Preciseness is also from the conductor giving everyone his or her beat.  The ensemble should keep their own time though too as a group.

I found them online.  Looks like a performance about once a week.  They probably rehearsal once before that.  I see music teachers, doctors, engineers, etc., in the ensemble.  They can read music well.  Some of those municipal bands are semi-professional.    Lol... looks like they like marches.   I'm not a grade expert, but I think it's around grad 3-4 pieces they are playing.  A lot of marches.   The concert band grading system is from 1-6.  6 would be avant garde stuff though, so that wouldn't work for a community audience.  It says municipal band, but I keep seeing a lot of army in there - conductor, arrangers, etc.   I'm getting the impression the group is probably a very good municipal band.  I haven't heard them play though.  There's probably not much to work on really, they could sight-read their music.  Or the issues they have aren't ones that will be fixed before a performance anyway.  Yeah, that's what I'm getting.  The concert schedule, the music, the pictures, personell, CDs they made... I'd be interested in hearing them.   I'm downloading their sampler....


This really has nothing to do with counterpoint though. 

[Bob]

Listening....

Yeah, they're good. Full, balanced, in tune.  Make it sound easy. 

"Can, can, can you do that can-can?"  Go Orpheius!

I've played the piece too.  I don't think it's an extremely difficult piece, but they sound good anyway.  Effortless.  Balanced.  Wood-winds don't sound harsh. 

(claps)

I'll have to get their CDs sometime.  With all that Sousa, they'd be a good reference.


Anway, back to the counterpoint.  What's going with this thread?

[Bob]

If you really want to know pianistimo, go compliment the director and ask -- Good performance!  How often do you guys rehearse?

Let's see what the band people say....
https://www.menc.org/networks/band/openforum/messages/14385.html

[pianistimo]

my hubby was going to compliment him - but he seemed to pack up rather quickly after the show - so i guess they were tired and wanted to go home.  i think his name is ronald dempkee.  have to check the spelling.  anyways - he's been the conductor for a while and seems to have a good way of getting everyone to do what he wants without resorting to name-calling and that sort of thing.  nobody is fearful of retribution if they accidentally hit a wrong note.  perhaps that is why they play so freely.  they were really good the other night.

i found some software on the internet (only $75.  ) that deals with counterpoint lessons.  perhaps that is better than making a workbook. 
https://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/6244358.stm  it's called 'counterpointer.'

[mycrabface]

Haha...have you seen the comedy skit on Youtube about the canon in D?

Yes I did! But it wasn't that funny.. Do you know who Russell Peters is?

[jlh]

this is like being able to move from the missionary position to something else.

This from Susan?

as i see it - you can have a pretty amazing climax in a short amount of time (with a small cantus firmus).  but, it has to have the firmus well established.

I thought climaxes came faster with a larger cantus firmus...

it's just a turn-off to me personally to have a cantus firmus given to me.

But you get turned on when you have to work for it?

another idea, also - is that there tends to be a three-sectioning out of theory students.  the ones who are interested.  the ones who are taking it for credit.  the ones that do not know why they are there.  to get the ones that do not know why they are there - to start having fun - the fundamentals have to be covered in a way that doesn't make them look stupid.  and, the ones who are taking it for credit - have to be convinced it is fun.  i think the way to do this is to accurately size up each student - and pair them in threes - one who's excited. one who's bored.  one who is oblivious.

Yes, I've heard 3-somes always help...

 

[ahinton]

This from Susan?

I thought climaxes came faster with a larger cantus firmus...

But you get turned on when you have to work for it?

Yes, I've heard 3-somes always help...

 

I managed to resist commenting on these things, for all that I could not help but notice all the double entendres; all that surprises me now is that it's taken so long for someone else not to resist so doing...(!)

Best,

Alistair

[jlh]

I managed to resist commenting on these things, for all that I could not help but notice all the double entendres; all that surprises me now is that it's taken so long for someone else not to resist so doing...(!)

Best,

Alistair

Well considering I haven't been on this thread in a few weeks, I really can't say I resisted at all. 

[pianistimo]

i was not suggesting anything beyond the norm in a theory class.  a threesome with one excited, one bored, and one who is oblivious seems rather pathetic.  (and threesomes are not allowed in the bible - although solomon had about 700 concubines and 3oo wives - so that would be about 1000 women altogether.  not sure if he was limited by threesomes - or had 20 somes.  but, anyways - the whole things is mysterious to me).

as i see it - theory classes don't have to be dull.  but, i wouldn't bring sex into it.  actually, the workbook ideas seem the best because you have 'hands on.'  with computers you don't get the same tactile sense of writing down quickly what is in your head.  sometimes the program 'finale' makes me want to scream - because i'm pacing along and then get bogged down by the inability to change time signatures within a piece.  i'm sure the capability is there - but it takes me too long to figure out these problems.  if i were handwriting the thing - it would be done.

[jlh]

i was not suggesting anything beyond the norm in a theory class.  a threesome with one excited, one bored, and one who is oblivious seems rather pathetic.  (and threesomes are not allowed in the bible - although solomon had about 700 concubines and 3oo wives - so that would be about 1000 women altogether.  not sure if he was limited by threesomes - or had 20 somes.  but, anyways - the whole things is mysterious to me).

So... the wisest man that ever lived (and indeed author of the book of Proverbs in the Bible) had more than 1000 women, and yet the Bible prohibits 3-somes?

[pianistimo]

it was his one weakness.  in fact, he was dunned for it.  his son only became king over one tribe of israel and they lost the other 10 to some guy called jeroboam.  strangely enough, it wasn't the number of wives that God was mad at - but the other gods that were worshipped because of these 'strange' wives.  how this all makes sense - i don't know.  ask God.  theory is difficult enough without threesomes brought into it.  btw, i do think this is much funnier than i let on.  although - the seriousness of a relationship could be disturbed by jealousy - which solomon must have witnessed on a grand scale.  do you ever wonder if any of these women literally fought others off of him. 

[ahinton]

i was not suggesting anything beyond the norm in a theory class.

Wow! Some members here might like to know where they might attend such theory classes (I may not be among them, but...)

a threesome with one excited, one bored, and one who is oblivious seems rather pathetic.  (and threesomes are not allowed in the bible

As I might have asked you on so many occasions I've lost count:
W H A T   H A S   T H E   B I B L E   G O T   T O   D O   W I T H   T H I S ?

although solomon had about 700 concubines and 3oo wives - so that would be about 1000 women altogether.  not sure if he was limited by threesomes - or had 20 somes.  but, anyways - the whole things is mysterious to me).

Whilst I am indeed glad to witness you publicly admitting this, I must again ask what the relevance is to Species Counterpoint...

as i see it - theory classes don't have to be dull.  but, i wouldn't bring sex into it.  actually, the workbook ideas seem the best because you have 'hands on.'

You're leaving yourself wide open (if you'll pardon the expression) yet again...

with computers you don't get the same tactile sense of writing down quickly what is in your head.

Is that your excuse for all the Biblical stuff where it ain't wanted?...

sometimes the program 'finale' makes me want to scream - because i'm pacing along and then get bogged down by the inability to change time signatures within a piece.  i'm sure the capability is there - but it takes me too long to figure out these problems.  if i were handwriting the thing - it would be done.

You're not alone in finding this program difficult - more so than Sibelius, so I understand from numerous users...

Best,

Alistair

[mcgillcomposer]

what do you think about a section that only discusses barbershop quartets?  what makes them so appealling?

The fact that they're quite often beautifully out-of-tune.

[mcgillcomposer]

here's a pairing of sop and bass with climax at the end instead of hte middle:

sop:   E  B A B low G A high E high A

bass: A  E F dD  upE dC    d B      d A

Do you really want to begin with  //5ths?

[pianistimo]

this would be widely spaced - so they'd be 12th and 19th.  is there such a thing.  they are widely spaced anyways.  do i need help?  yes.  it's been a few years since i took the last theory class - let alone counterpoint. 

ok.  you gave the cantus firmus - you fix it.  it's a sort of half-baked pachabel canon bass isn't it.  are you trying to frustrate me?  what do you think of the sounds alone.  (forgetting the rules for a moment)  the general flow.  the absolute contrariness of the lines.

[mcgillcomposer]

this would be widely spaced - so they'd be 12th and 19th.  is there such a thing.  they are widely spaced anyways.  do i need help?  yes.  it's been a few years since i took the last theory class - let alone counterpoint. 

ok.  you gave the cantus firmus - you fix it.  it's a sort of half-baked pachabel canon bass isn't it.  are you trying to frustrate me?  what do you think of the sounds alone.  (forgetting the rules for a moment)  the general flow.  the absolute contrariness of the lines.

There is nothing to fix in the cantus...although, I should point out that you're not using the one I gave. It was as follows: A E F E D E C B A.

Yes, there is such a thing. In fact, such a wide spacing actually makes the 5ths more noticeable (more of an accent). On a scale of 1-10, the harmonic accent you create at the opening with the 5ths is definitely in the 9-10 range. All of this aside, here is what I think about the sounds alone. Oh, and I should remark that the rules of counterpoint are there to HELP the sound, not to supress creativity.

It is assumed, when beginning species counterpoint, that the exercises are written for voice...for your example, we will have to overlook that. Instrumental writing presents many new problems, but even though you haven't indicated the instrumentation, I can point out a few things re: the flow and musicality of the line.

You have two basic sounds: a very open fifth-like sound, and a very rich 3rds/6ths-like sound. The problem is that you don't move between these different 'colours' in a coherent way. Your exercise sounds like three different sections lazily glued together...and thus, it does not flow. Also, after the very rich middle section (lots of 3rds and 6ths) the implied 6/4 sounds VERY harsh.

Secondly, counterpoint is not about strictly independent lines; it is about independent lines that WORK TOGETHER. While the cantus stays fairly grounded, the line you composed is soaring off into space.

This said, taken out of context, your line could work within a larger framework. The only thing is you'd need at least a few minutes of music to work out all of the very stark contrasts you have crammed into this short exercise.

[pianistimo]

believe it or not, mcgillcomposer, i am listening.

ok.  i need help.  take it from square one.  (please forgive the dyslexic turn of E in the cantus firmus - putting it after the D instead of before).

just taking the FIRST note in the soprano line (and - i have a question about pairing the bass and soprano first - isn't that preferrable or is it preferrable to have bass/tenor  and alto/sop paired first?)  i really don't remember - so this is a question as to how one starts this 'skeleton' of thinking.

suppose i was analyzing motion mostly.  attempting to make them contrary in motion.

[mcgillcomposer]

just taking the FIRST note in the soprano line (and - i have a question about pairing the bass and soprano first - isn't that preferrable or is it preferrable to have bass/tenor  and alto/sop paired first?)  i really don't remember - so this is a question as to how one starts this 'skeleton' of thinking.

This is a first species counterpoint exercise in 2 voices. There is no need, at this point, to consider how you would fill the other voices in...no need for skeletons. In terms of harmony, just be aware of the IMPLIED harmony...it is not always clear in 2 parts.

[pianistimo]

ok.  what would be the best interval to start a first species counterpoint (or two voice counterpoint)?  ok  bass line and what?  alto?  can you skip the tenor.  or do they have to be closer together?  although then - we wouldn't have a fifth to climax on - and would be - as you call - in sky territory again.

[mcgillcomposer]

ok.  what would be the best interval to start a two species counterpoint (or two voice counterpoint)?

There is no "best" interval. A unison, a 3rd, a 5th, and an octave are all valid options to begin a tonal counterpoint exercise. Everything is relative to how the rest of the line plays out. For example, if you want to give a sense of expansion (lines in contrary motion), then it would be quite effective to begin on a unison.