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Topic: Beethoven Sonata Op. 2 No. 3 (Read 7600 times)

pet

PS Silver Member
Jr. Member
Posts: 84

Hello Everyone,

I'm in the process of learning this sonata, and I have a few problems that I think some of you can help me with.

1. The parallel thirds in the beginning....is their anyway to get those clear? They are a pain! If I play it up to tempo, they come out semi-clear, but when I hear recordings they are crystal clear, and I always wonder if there is a certain technique, or do I just have to do certain exercizes on thirds.

2. The trills that both hands play together (for instance the beginning of the development) are never as clear as I want them to be because my left hand always messes them up (I think it's because the fourth finger is involved). Is there a certain way that I should position my left hand in order to get these trills as clear as my right, or any exercizes to strengthen the 4th finger?

3. There is a particular page, I belive it is the first page of the development (about the fourth page from the beginning)....where the right hand has broken chords. I can't get this page to save my life, and I really don't know why. It seems my hand gets stuck after every four notes, and can't get to the next group of notes fast enough, so it's always behind.

So...any suggestions?

Thanks in advance!

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pet

PS Silver Member
Jr. Member
Posts: 84

Re: Beethoven Sonata Op. 2 No. 3

Reply #1 on: July 03, 2007, 11:39:22 PM

Sorry, I put the wrong Sonata No. in the Title...it's No. 3...I changed it.

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daniloperusina

PS Silver Member
Sr. Member
Posts: 476

Re: Beethoven Sonata Op. 2 No. 3

Reply #2 on: July 04, 2007, 01:18:48 AM

1. Perhaps you try too hard. Are you really relaxed? If not, try practicing being light as a feather, e.g. practice pianissimo, practice being so light that the keys hardly move. I think this is an instance where a metronome will not help, because you are not only supposed to play them evenly, you must create a rythm, a swing. Musically, I think you must make a subtle crescendo. It's a finger-excersise matter, but perhaps even more a mind-thing. The better you can visualize in your head how it must be performed, the easier it will be to do it (if your vision is a good one, of course). Hanon-type excersises will not give you that, in this case. They might help to smooth up your fingers, though..

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quantum

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Posts: 6260

Re: Beethoven Sonata Op. 2 No. 3

Reply #3 on: July 04, 2007, 07:46:51 AM

1. Supple wrist, not stiff wrist and trying to make the fingers do more work than they need to. The fingers and wrist must work together. It's kind of like a shaking motion with the wrist. Fingers need to be firm but agile in order to hit the notes together. So your wrist is trying to be loose and supple, while fingers trying to be firm and stay in position in order to hit the notes, all the while using a slight shaking motion of the wrist and lower forearm.

Also being close to the keys helps, think like a trill.

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pet

PS Silver Member
Jr. Member
Posts: 84

Re: Beethoven Sonata Op. 2 No. 3

Reply #4 on: July 04, 2007, 02:04:31 PM

Thank you daniloperusina and quantum! You have been very helpful. Perhaps I am not relaxed enough and being too stiff. I will try to play with a light feel, and try to visualize how it should be performed. Thanks again!

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daniloperusina

PS Silver Member
Sr. Member
Posts: 476

Re: Beethoven Sonata Op. 2 No. 3

Reply #5 on: July 05, 2007, 12:09:31 AM

2. 4th finger? The trills Ab-G and Bb-Ab etc, you do use the thumb on the blacks, don't you (left hand)? If not, I recommend that you try.
Perhaps you play too many notes in the trill? I've often found that a beautiful and clear trill has more to do with rythmical delicacy and 'touch' than with speed. I also think this one needs a bit of attack on the first note, then diminuendo. Main emphasis is perhaps on using the wrist, just like quantum described so clearly.

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daniloperusina

PS Silver Member
Sr. Member
Posts: 476

Re: Beethoven Sonata Op. 2 No. 3

Reply #6 on: July 05, 2007, 12:31:44 AM

3. That's a very difficult passage! Everything you describe is the symptom of stiffness! But a passage like this will doubtlessly cause exhaustion in any pianist's hand, unless you make a clever technical solution to it.

My suggestions are:
1.Learn them really well as chords first. The slightest hesitation (which note will come next?) will tense you up.
2. When playing fortissimo, don't play every note fortissimo. That will sound unmusical. The first one of each group is enough. Also, you must still shape it into phrases, so you'll need a range of ff's, from softer to louder.
3. Don't let the fingers remain on their keys, use a detached approach.
4. Again, wrist movement. Try to let the ff come from the wrist and arm, not the fingers.
5. If it's still do difficult, do a 'Brendel solution', and let your left hand help your right!:)

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thalberg

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Sr. Member
Posts: 1950

Re: Beethoven Sonata Op. 2 No. 3

Reply #7 on: July 05, 2007, 01:02:25 AM

Quote from: pet on July 03, 2007, 11:38:19 PM

Hello Everyone,

I'm in the process of learning this sonata, and I have a few problems that I think some of you can help me with.

1. The parallel thirds in the beginning....is their anyway to get those clear? They are a pain! If I play it up to tempo, they come out semi-clear, but when I hear recordings they are crystal clear, and I always wonder if there is a certain technique, or do I just have to do certain exercizes on thirds.

2. The trills that both hands play together (for instance the beginning of the development) are never as clear as I want them to be because my left hand always messes them up (I think it's because the fourth finger is involved). Is there a certain way that I should position my left hand in order to get these trills as clear as my right, or any exercizes to strengthen the 4th finger?

3. There is a particular page, I belive it is the first page of the development (about the fourth page from the beginning)....where the right hand has broken chords. I can't get this page to save my life, and I really don't know why. It seems my hand gets stuck after every four notes, and can't get to the next group of notes fast enough, so it's always behind.

So...any suggestions?

Thanks in advance!

1. Is your hand big enough to hold the LH fifth while taking the bottom note with 2-1-2-1? (Mine is) It's totally cheating but it sounds super clear if you do it that way. I do. And hey, you're not leaving out notes, so it's fine I think. ----Otherwise, with just the RH Schnabel says to finger it 5-1 on C and E then 2-4 on B and D. This helps a lot.

2. For hand position, I'd really have to see what you're doing to help you. But here's some great advice---just touch the surface of each note--no stinging or unwanted accents, especially on the first note. Ease into the first note with your sense of touch. And your'e probably rushing (like I do). Slightly slow and expand the trill. And Play the trills on the surface and keep your fingers so close to the keys that you're touching the keys all the time.

3. I had a hard time with this, too. Get an anatomy book and look at the muscles involved in pronation and supination of the hand. This will help. Your problem, as you know, is that it's a long way from the last note of the groups (5th finger) to the first note of the next group (thumb). This involves pronating (turning in toward the thumb) and extension (pushing like a punch toward the fallboard). Do this rhythmically. Just a thought. No one yell at me please.

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pet

PS Silver Member
Jr. Member
Posts: 84

Re: Beethoven Sonata Op. 2 No. 3

Reply #8 on: July 05, 2007, 12:06:00 PM

Quote from: daniloperusina on July 05, 2007, 12:09:31 AM

2. 4th finger? The trills Ab-G and Bb-Ab etc, you do use the thumb on the blacks, don't you (left hand)? If not, I recommend that you try.
Perhaps you play too many notes in the trill? I've often found that a beautiful and clear trill has more to do with rythmical delicacy and 'touch' than with speed. I also think this one needs a bit of attack on the first note, then diminuendo. Main emphasis is perhaps on using the wrist, just like quantum described so clearly.

Thanks daniloperusina! I think I was using the wrong fingering on some of them...ha! I always look over fingerings in parts of music for some reason. I think my knowledge of what the notes are makes me think that I know how to play the phrases already without seeing the details. Also, I have some problems trilling with 1-2, my left hand is not use to it. However, the approach that Thalberg suggested (below) I will try, and should make some kind of difference. It's interesting that you say attack on the first note, when Thalberg says not to....hmm, I will try both ways.

Quote from: thalberg on July 05, 2007, 01:02:25 AM

1. Is your hand big enough to hold the LH fifth while taking the bottom note with 2-1-2-1? (Mine is) It's totally cheating but it sounds super clear if you do it that way. I do. And hey, you're not leaving out notes, so it's fine I think. ----Otherwise, with just the RH Schnabel says to finger it 5-1 on C and E then 2-4 on B and D. This helps a lot.

2. For hand position, I'd really have to see what you're doing to help you. But here's some great advice---just touch the surface of each note--no stinging or unwanted accents, especially on the first note. Ease into the first note with your sense of touch. And your'e probably rushing (like I do). Slightly slow and expand the trill. And Play the trills on the surface and keep your fingers so close to the keys that you're touching the keys all the time.

3. I had a hard time with this, too. Get an anatomy book and look at the muscles involved in pronation and supination of the hand. This will help. Your problem, as you know, is that it's a long way from the last note of the groups (5th finger) to the first note of the next group (thumb). This involves pronating (turning in toward the thumb) and extension (pushing like a punch toward the fallboard). Do this rhythmically. Just a thought. No one yell at me please.

Thanks Thalberg!

1. I can only reach an octave

I tried cheating with playing the bottom notes of the thirds with my left, but it looks so obvious! I will try the 5-1, 2-4 method.

2. I'm doing the exact opposite of what you suggested...could be the problem! I always attack the first note thinking that would give me a better result. I will try your approach.

3. Very interesting! I will look into this more.

Thank you so much!!!!

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minstrel

PS Silver Member
Jr. Member
Posts: 42

Re: Beethoven Sonata Op. 2 No. 3

Reply #9 on: July 13, 2007, 12:39:59 AM

The 51-42 fingering is where it's at! Way more natural then 31-42.

For the alternating chords, pay attention to the connection between the last note of a group of 4 sixteenths, and the 1st note of the next group of 4. If you can nail this connection, and can play a group of 4 in isolation (without having to move hand position -- use wrist rotation) then you will have it down.

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pet

PS Silver Member
Jr. Member
Posts: 84

Re: Beethoven Sonata Op. 2 No. 3

Reply #10 on: July 13, 2007, 01:27:58 AM

Thanks minstrel! I started to use the 14-23 fingering for the thirds, and it's working out well! As for that hard passage that you are talking about, my hands are getting use to it now, so it doesn't sound so bad. Now if only I can get those arpeggios coming down ...things would be great!

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