Being a musician is financially IMPOSSIBLE

[matterintospirit]

Cost of schooling vs. what your degree will enable you to make.  That is what is impractical.

yeah, Thal, I know, i'm just reacting to some comments that got on my nerves, and lost the point.

[gerry]

I do have an opportunity to rent a nice space at a mall complex in an upper class neighborhood.  My mom knows the owner of the building and I could get it for insanely cheap.  I have a grand piano to use, and I could decorate to make things look nice.  In terms of my personality and appearance, all I can say is that when I've taught in the past the parents have been happy and I've gotten referrals.

What an interesting concept. They have walk-in clinics at malls now and you can do just about anything else while you're there. Think of it, mom could shop while the kid gets a piano lesson Seriously, best of luck.

[thalberg]

Haha.....exactly.  Plus, there's a karate place and a dance studio in the same hallway.  Like I said, rent would be 350 dollars a month.  Not bad, don't you think?  My only concern is what would it cost to move the piano there and decorate properly.

[gerry]

Haha.....exactly.  Plus, there's a karate place and a dance studio in the same hallway.  Like I said, rent would be 350 dollars a month.  Not bad, don't you think?  My only concern is what would it cost to move the piano there and decorate properly.

Wow, you might even  look to branching out and franchising - think of it, we could all buy in and open a "Thalberg Studio" in our local malls

[nyonyo]

Haha.....exactly.  Plus, there's a karate place and a dance studio in the same hallway.  Like I said, rent would be 350 dollars a month.  Not bad, don't you think?  My only concern is what would it cost to move the piano there and decorate properly.

What you need to concern is that the $350/month is only a teaser rate for you to come!!!
You have to make sure how long that rate will last....If only for 6 months, it won't do any good.
You can tell the owner is desperate....Nobody in the world charge that low.

RS

[thalberg]

What you need to concern is that the $350/month is only a teaser rate for you to come!!!
You have to make sure how long that rate will last....If only for 6 months, it won't do any good.
You can tell the owner is desperate....Nobody in the world charge that low.

RS

Desperate?  Hmm....actually, as I mentioned, he's a close personal friend of my mom's.  My mom rents a place for her store in the same complex and pays thousands a month (of course she has way more square feet).

The 350 is a teaser rate, you are correct.  After that  it would go up to 600 or 800 or so.  It's a very, very small place.  But the good news is, because they are personal friends, they said they will not hold me to any lease, so on the day that I want to leave, I can pack up and not pay another cent.  I'm not saying this is like the deal of a lifetime, but I do think it's a nice, non-threatening way for me to give teaching a try since I do not own a house.

I don't know....tell me your opinion.  Once I am successful would $600/month rent be horrible?  I don't know.

The thing that I like is that we know these people well, so they'll probably always do whatever is most reasonable and friendly.  The mall is quite well occupied, but they just sort of always have a few smaller places that are vacant.  The place I would rent used to be a comic book store, but the guy got thrown in jail or something, I don't know what he did.  There are still superhero logos on the wall.  I kind of like them--good for kids.  Haha.

[gerry]

 There are still superhero logos on the wall.  I kind of like them--good for kids.  Haha.

You could always paste face shots of the great composers over theirs.

[thalberg]

You could always paste face shots of the great composers over theirs.

Honestly, I probably will.

[danny elfboy]

I think the point is another one.
If you really love music you WILL DO IT (no matter what) if you don't YOU WON'T
Now I'm not here saying one should love music more but that if you find what you love you find all open doors in front of you. For example my cousin realized he loved math and when he got a degree in math he said it was the easiest thing in his life whereas with whatever other matter he'd would have struggled like hell. Even though it's hard to find a job with a degree in math nowadays he found all open doors. My aunt on the other hand got a degree in dentistry and opened a studio and she was earning lot of money but she realized she didn't like it and each day was too painful to work and closed the studio and opened a restaurant where she earns way lot money but she is sure this is the true vocation of her and indeed she is fiding all door open.

I'm not saying here that money are not important but that when YOU LOVE something you are willing to DIE for it. I can think of a lot of thing I would never DIE for but few things I would indeed DIE for and those I know are the things that must be in my life ... in richness or poverty, in health or sickness, in mental stability or total folly.

I think that a pianist who regrets having studied music for a matter of money hasn't really found his real vocation and my suggestion is to keep searching that thing that makes your life totally senseful so much that you could die for that thing and so much that nothing else matter, not even whether you've a roof above your head.

I know piano teachers who when they find talented students they teach them for free.
And yet they ask no more than 15$/hour and struggle to survive to the point that they are willing to have second jobs and can't even afford vacations ... but they would do anything to keep doing what they do and that's LOVE cause they could have more money if they just chose to focus on that (ask more and to everyone) rather on what they call "a mission" in their life.

This whole "does this job pays enough?" reminds me of the difference between marrying a person for convenience or beauty/lust versus loving so much a person that you would be willing to endure everything for her: poverty, death, homelesness and more. Some people can understand the last one and remember all the human stories that show real love exists while other are just impermeable to that and keep discussing feelings like gossip articles discuss unprobable biased theory according to which men goes for look and women goes for money.

[thalberg]

This whole "does this job pays enough?" reminds me of the difference between marrying a person for convenience or beauty/lust versus loving so much a person that you would be willing to endure everything for her: poverty, death, homelesness and more. Some people can understand the last one and remember all the human stories that show real love exists while other are just impermeable to that and keep discussing feelings like gossip articles discuss unprobable biased theory according to which men goes for look and women goes for money.

Danny!! You have not been around much.  We miss you.  Good to hear from you.

Well, you're still a teenager, but as you get older money matters more--not because of greed or wanting a mercedes and an iPhone, but just because it is so stressful not having anything in the bank.    I have known people in the arts with no health insurance, no savings, and having to rent places way into adulthood.  That life is okay when you're young, but you outgrow that, trust me.

[ramseytheii]

Danny!! You have not been around much.  We miss you.  Good to hear from you.

Well, you're still a teenager, but as you get older money matters more--not because of greed or wanting a mercedes and an iPhone, but just because it is so stressful not having anything in the bank.    I have known people in the arts with no health insurance, no savings, and having to rent places way into adulthood.  That life is okay when you're young, but you outgrow that, trust me.

I suspect though this might relate to an American mentality, that says to be a grown-up, you have to own your own car and be a landowner.  If not, somehow you are less than a person, or you have failed somehow.  Compare this mentality with a whole host of people in whose footsteps we follow: Mozart, Beethoven, Chopin, Liszt, and a whole host of other greats who moved from apartment to apartment, living in squalor, or in the case of Liszt, living in enforced poverty (though he had mysterious huge sums in foreign bank accounts, I don't think he ever drew on them).  I am not saying that poverty is desirable, but only that you can't say those people didn't "outgrow" something, or that they were immature somehow.

I like the example of Enescu, the composer and violinist who discovered Menuhin.  I have a book of photographs by the great photographer Yusuf Karsh, who visited Ensecu in his (Enescu's) old age to take  his picture.  He described Enescu's living conditions - I can quote exactly later on - as basically squalid; a one-room apartment, stuffed with bookshelves, a bed, and a desk and piano so close to each other that they shared the same swivel chair.  He painted a nostalgic picture of Enescu in words; Enescu was still teaching at this advanced age (90+) and said, "You never know when you will find the next Yehudi Menuhin."

We don't need to strive for this, but anyone who wants more than anything else to live their whole lives in music will be able to decide what is important and what is not, and will cut out those extra things that although peer pressure may tell us we need, those with different goals and different values don't need them.

Sorry to ramble, but let's bring up Liszt again.  He did apparently have a fortune (though it is not clear if he knew he had it), and when we think of him today, we often think of the impeccable glamour of his life.  Meeting and befriending the Emperors, Kings, Queens, Countesses, Duchesses, the Pope; being a father figure to two generations of musicians; international celebrity, etc.  But he lived in a tiny apartment, according to Alexander Siloti, without any books, fine clothes, or amenities.  He had a crucifix on the wall, paper and ink to write letters or music, and a desk (and probably a bottle of brandy).  What do we need?  Our lives are invested in the music, and as long as we have invested rightly, we will be able to continue music till the day we die, as so many before us have shown.

Walter Ramsey

[iumonito]

I think I like the model of Teleman, Haendel, Rossini, Mendelssohn, Rachmaninov, Heifetz, Paderewski, Arthur Rubinstein, Leonard Bernstein and Godowsky the like a little better.

Live comfortably, free your mind.

[ramseytheii]

I think I like the model of Teleman, Haendel, Rossini, Mendelssohn, Rachmaninov, Heifetz, Paderewski, Arthur Rubinstein, Leonard Bernstein and Godowsky the like a little better.

Live comfortably, free your mind.

Telemann - music not performed anymore except on rush hour classical radio; Handel - burned out; Rossini - burned out; Mendelssohn - burned out; Rachmaninoff - burned out; Heifetz - never tried an old piece a new way; Paderewski - career change; Rubinstein - later recordings don't compare to earlier ones; Bernstein - "He didn't age well," in the words of Gould; Godowsky - piano God and hardly rich like these others!

Walter Ramsey

[thalberg]

I suspect though this might relate to an American mentality, that says to be a grown-up, you have to own your own car and be a landowner.  If not, somehow you are less than a person, or you have failed somehow. 

Walter, you are one hundred percent correct.  That is absolutely the American mindset in my Midwestern, suburban experience.

People you describe who lived in poverty and squalor .. they had talent so large that it burned like a fire within them, and there was no controlling it or supressing it.  I do not have this kind of talent and so I cannot justify the sacrifices.  I'd be living in squalor and poverty for no reason.

[iumonito]

Telemann - music not performed anymore except on rush hour classical radio; Handel - burned out; Rossini - burned out; Mendelssohn - burned out; Rachmaninoff - burned out; Heifetz - never tried an old piece a new way; Paderewski - career change; Rubinstein - later recordings don't compare to earlier ones; Bernstein - "He didn't age well," in the words of Gould; Godowsky - piano God and hardly rich like these others!

Walter Ramsey

Walter, really?

May Gould say what he may have, Berstein late music making, like he late recordings of Mahler and Brahms are beyond sublime.  And Bernstein poor was not (Neither was Gould, for that matter).

Godowsky was filthy rich.  So was Rachmaninov.  And Paderewski.  And Rubinstein.

You may dislike the music of Rossini and Mendelssohn.  I find it full of life and invigorating, like champagne.  (Really, who can stay gloomy with the Italian symphony on).  These two, were, also, very very far from poor.

I do like J.S. Bach's better, but the music of Haendel is due for a revival (particularly the operas, so full of passion!!!) and Teleman is one of the most unappreciated geniuses in the 20th and so far in the 21st century.  The guy was witty and his music is very rewarding and particularly human.

Teleman too was quite far from being a pauper.

You may think them sold-outs.  I think them a healthy model.  I much rather be Mendelssohn than Schubert.

[alzado]

I'm looping all the way back to the initial message of the thread, because I just can't wade through someting like 97 messages.

Here's my problem.  Your assumption is that the person is classically trained, and plays classical repertoire.

The goal of becoming a Ph.D. does not equate with "being a musician."

With these narrow sideboards put in place, yes, you can be sure your premise [thread title] is correct.

Having stacked the cards, so to speak.

[thalberg]

Thank you, alzado.  You're the first person who sees what I'm talking about.

And the situation does mirror myself and many of my friends.  My friends and I have doctorates and low paying jobs (except I left my job and am changing careers) and this is how the numbers would work out for us.....if some of us didn't get scholarships and others of us didn't get lots of help from mom and dad.  Even still, six figure debts exist among my friends. My numbers are actually spot on simply because I was in the conservatory/college environment for 10 years and know professors salaries and student tuitions in a very personal way.

[sassafras]

Having the soul of a musician is financially impossible. I went from high flying DC and then NYC lawyer with no time for piano to now on Social Security at $623 month and I am much happier with time and music  (and lots of books, magazines, CDs, DVDs and 8 cats). Yea, and along the way in additon to J.D. I got ThD and 3 PhDs... #$%^&*( it all as I am happiest now.

[Derek]

If you can stand it, I think one should have a job that is completely different from piano to pay the bills. Then you can have total artistic freedom at home. No rights or wrongs, no stressful competitions, no dangerously inflated egos from having massive audiences applaud for you (if you even get that far). It's just more peaceful to well...NOT be a musician professionally. But for some sick reason a lot of people desire a complete lack of peace in their lives. I'll never understand it really.  I mean...if you just CANT STAND doing anything else other than music, then I guess you don't have a choice, but most of us are pretty smart. It seems like most of us should be able to get a decent job doing something other than music. There are too many pianists. And too few people who appreciate well executed piano music that they've heard executed well thousands of times by thousands of people. It just doesn't make sense to make a career out of it anymore. Do I lack any shred of idealism? Hardly. By having a non musical career, I can do anything I want with music. To me, that's idealistic. Oh well....

[rc]

We sure have chosen difficult dreams eh?

By the Bach biography I read he actually sounds like he lead a fairly normal life.  Natural talent no doubt but also an amazing work ethic.  All his life he was building his career and improving his condition.  He was well off enough to provide a good lifestyle for his family.

That's pretty much what I'm thinking.  One day my children will exist and I want to open doors for them.  They're not going to have to worry about money and I sure as hell won't be leaving any debt behind.

That said I would still like to make money at music so that I could give more time to it.  Next weekend I will play for a wedding for the first time, perhaps this spark could grow?

[leahcim]

My friends and I have doctorates and low paying jobs

They aren't that clever then are they? A good first question might be "Where did all the money we spent go?" Someone got it, presumably selling the piano dream pays someone.

Seriously though. Not everyone is that bothered about money, so they might be perfectly happy. Although your post might suggest it is an issue.

If you get a job you're gonna be low paid. Period. That's what a job is. With the possible exception if you can get a large corporate to let you run their business instead of running your own.

IIRC Steve Jobs gets about $1 a year? Less than a pianist, but he seems to manage. Now you have your answer. Be frugal like Steve Jobs...was that it? Hmm, I dunno, you have the big brains, you figure out how Steve gets his money without needing a salary. Good Luck

[jpowell]

Richard Black is quite correct when he writes that one doesn't actually need to go to college/conservatoire at all in order to become a decent pianist. I didn't go to a music academy - in fact, I had no piano lessons between the ages of 18 and 28, at which point I found a very good teacher and had a number of lessons with her over a year period. I also often observed her teach other (younger, of course) students who were usually involved in the dreadful circus of competitions. Now I just give concerts and make CDs. I have a not so good upright piano to work on at home. That means you have to work very hard to get a good sound - so when you play on a real piano in a concert, there's really no problem at all! I've heard other pianists make remarks along these lines, so I think it's not just me.

[thalberg]

They aren't that clever then are they?

Not clever?  One of my friends gave a recital of the complete Schubert sonatas this year, which he finised in May.  The next week he promptly began a recital series of the complete Beethoven Sonatas, which is now completed.  He practices 10 hours a week and teaches the rest of the time.  In fairness, he had already played all 32 Beethoven sonatas two years prior.  Another friend entered five competitions this year, made it to the finals in all of them, and now has a full time university job.  Several of my friends have played Carnegie Hall multiple times.  But if you want to call them not clever, go ahead.

IIRC Steve Jobs gets about $1 a year? Less than a pianist, but he seems to manage. Now you have your answer. Be frugal like Steve Jobs...was that it? Hmm, I dunno, you have the big brains, you figure out how Steve gets his money without needing a salary. Good Luck

You are getting awfully condescending.  How old are you?

[thalberg]

Richard Black is quite correct when he writes that one doesn't actually need to go to college/conservatoire at all in order to become a decent pianist. I didn't go to a music academy - in fact, I had no piano lessons between the ages of 18 and 28, at which point I found a very good teacher and had a number of lessons with her over a year period. I also often observed her teach other (younger, of course) students who were usually involved in the dreadful circus of competitions. Now I just give concerts and make CDs. I have a not so good upright piano to work on at home. That means you have to work very hard to get a good sound - so when you play on a real piano in a concert, there's really no problem at all! I've heard other pianists make remarks along these lines, so I think it's not just me.

Mr Powell, I heartily endorse the career path you have chosen.  If you can ever dissuade anyone from doing a music doctorate, you will be doing them a huge favor in every way.  I wish someone had dissuaded me.  I'm not a better pianist because of the doctorate, I'm a worse one than I would have been, simply because all the time in the library did in fact drain my practice time. 

And you are absolutely right--a good piano teacher is all you need once you know your theory and history.  Graduate degrees do not help in the real world at all, unless you want a college job, many of which are no prize.  Ironically, the absolute best college jobs that pay the most are held by performers without doctorates.  Why?  because those people had better things to do than a doctorate--like practice and concertize.

[thalberg]

If you can stand it, I think one should have a job that is completely different from piano to pay the bills. Then you can have total artistic freedom at home. No rights or wrongs, no stressful competitions, no dangerously inflated egos from having massive audiences applaud for you (if you even get that far). It's just more peaceful to well...NOT be a musician professionally. But for some sick reason a lot of people desire a complete lack of peace in their lives. I'll never understand it really.  I mean...if you just CANT STAND doing anything else other than music, then I guess you don't have a choice, but most of us are pretty smart. It seems like most of us should be able to get a decent job doing something other than music. There are too many pianists. And too few people who appreciate well executed piano music that they've heard executed well thousands of times by thousands of people. It just doesn't make sense to make a career out of it anymore. Do I lack any shred of idealism? Hardly. By having a non musical career, I can do anything I want with music. To me, that's idealistic. Oh well....

Derek, I like this image.  I may go this route.

[sevencircles]

You don´t play classical music for the money, you play it because you love it in your heart and soul.

Liberace was propably the closest thing to "The last classical pianist that became very rich by playing the classical piano"

[leahcim]

Not clever?  One of my friends....blah blah blah

Indeed, then I'm sure he'll find a way of making a living with or without his qualifications.

If any of you can't then you aren't that clever. Period. Waffle on and on about how clever he is by all means but note I'm not saying he isn't. You are.

You must have paid some of the money you listed to other people and organisations some of whom are already similarly qualified - think about that.

I'm saying your whining in the OP and the thread title is fallacious and if you can't get "high paying" jobs then de facto you aren't that clever. Which is ironic if your main argument for why you can't make a particular job pay is because you got a phd. If only you'd been dumb 

I'm as thick as you can get, I left school with no particular special skills, no qualifications, had no higher education and I managed, without much effort at all, to get a job, which, as you might imagine meant I was in profit from day one, albeit it was about $800/month. So I moaned on a forum about how...oh no, hang on, after a few years I earnt the equiv of c$150k. When I was about 23. I'm sure I could have doubled that, at least, in the USA.

By contrast, over the same period some have made millions and billions, making my earnings just what they were - a good wage, but peanuts in the scheme of things. Had I a phd should I have expected 10x more? 500x? Less? You tell me. I did save some money because a piano commensurate with my abilities probably only costs $50 including delivery and first tuning - but I'm sure that never stopped Paul McCartney from buying a nice one...

OTOH, I've not earned a penny for the last 7 years. So who do I moan to about that? It's clearly not fair. I did an iq test in here and scored a lot, how much is that worth? So doesn't the world owe me a living? No? Should I list something completely asinine like it's financially IMPOSSIBLE for me to make a living...and add the rent I paid and the cost of daily cheese or tuna sandwiches to the debt I built up when I was at school?

So, IME, you'd have to be pretty dumb to not land a job if you've above average intelligence, unless it's by choice or ill health [give or take a few years of economic depression that most of us will have to live through at some point] and moreso if you think getting a qualification should make you different from anyone else in the real world. Rule : If you find people that think it matters and they'll pay you for having it, go for it, but don't expect the rest of the world to care.

As I said, a job, even one that at first sight looks high, is usually not a lot of money - that's what a job is. Most with them are in huge debt and only a few months away, if they didn't have that job and couldn't quickly find another, from losing everything that it might appear, to the naive looking from the outside, that they own.

But I presume from your comment that you moan about your friends phds and low paying jobs because you consider some salaries a lot of money. If you're really clever then the last thing you want is a job, you should set your sights higher IMO, especially if "musician" is your goal.

That said, some people are perfectly happy doing what they do, whatever it pays and are wise enough to know what they earn determines what they can and cannot have as a result - no matter if they have a phd or not. This is fair enough. You don't seem to fall into this category though.

You come across in your first post as though you think the world owes you a living because you wanted a phd and threw lots of money to get one. This does beg the question, if you'd been more intelligent, and better then perhaps you could have got the phd cheaper, no?

If you find that condescending, don't - you're the clever one here, not me...I could spend $1M and I probably wouldn't get grade 1 piano [not the least because there certainly aren't (m)any unemployed phd piano professors looking for money around here - I can only assume they either don't exist, they make enough and don't need my money or they're writing a thread to some forum saying how difficult it is to make a living as a piano teacher]

You seem to have an issue that a career path which, let's face it,  a complete buffoon should have seen the possibilities and potential for, years before starting it, let alone finishing it, somehow isn't right and should work in some other way.

This isn't clever is it? If you jump off a building you go splat. I'd prefer to bounce and often moan on physics boards that it isn't fair. But ultimately, this is why I don't jump off a building, because I know from the start what the outcome is likely to be if I do.

If you've decided that your only career options [apparently because you once had piano lessons and now have huge debts getting a phd in a specific subject], mean that you're effectively jumping off a building and have decided, half way down, that it's unfair that you won't bounce when you hit the bottom, then you aren't as clever as you hope - not even if you're playing Brahms on the way down.

But, you're wrong anyway. It's not true. Firstly the music industry has far more potential than "professor" and afaict wealthy musicians exist, whether paid directly for being a musician or not and secondly, just because you got a qualification you can still explore other areas.

If your friends have low paid jobs and phds and you're sure they are clever, then they shouldn't have that many long-term problems, even if they want to be musicians too.

You are getting awfully condescending.  How old are you?

Old enough to know that there's nothing wrong with being young  [although anyone intelligent wouldn't need to ask ] I think you should figure out how to make a living before you worry about getting old though.

[thalberg]

Well, you're pretty much saying the doctorate/college professor route in music is not wise.  That was my point to begin with.  So really we're in agreement. 

As for your personal attacks against me, I don't see why you wasted your time.

[gyzzzmo]

The life of a musician: 

STARTUP EXPENSES:

Childhood piano lessons - parents pay
Bachelors degree: about 100K
Masters degree: about 50K
Doctorate: about 100K
Cost of a piano commensurate with one's abilities: 50K

TOTAL STARTUP EXPENSE:  300K (plus you're near 30 when you get out of school)

EARNINGS:

Starting salary of most professor jobs: 30 to 40K per year

Typically clear 2100/month after taxes

Payment on a 300K loan: about 2300/month for 30 years

Being a musician is IMPOSSIBLE!!!!!

Discuss.....

Totally disagree
Bachalors degree and Masters degree are FREE (at least in Holland it is). Also, you definitly do not need a doctorate to be a supurb musician
You do need a decent piano though + extra stuff, wich means a total of like 30-50k

gyzzzmo

[leahcim]

Well, you're pretty much saying the doctorate/college professor route in music is not wise. 

On the contrary. If that is what someone wants to do they should go for it.

What is not wise is moaning that the top of Everest is cold and lacks oxygen when you're a few feet from the top.

As for your personal attacks against me, I don't see why you wasted your time.

There's no personal attack. AFAICT you said at the start of the thread, post #3, that you weren't talking about your own personal situation?  If that wasn't true, caveat emptor. If you saw something you thought was aimed at only at you, rest assured, it wasn't. It was aimed at anyone that fit the scenario you painted or shares your stated opinions. Ergo, it wasn't personal.

[gyzzzmo]

Lets just stick to the topic Leahcim, the question if piano education isnt far too expensive (according to thals numbers :p )

At first, its pretty obvious hardly anybody has spend as many money on his study as Thalberg did and as he already admitted, it wasnt necacerry either.
In fact, the fun about learning to play the piano is that it can be as cheap as you want and as expensive. For example, Thal payed 300k, and i payed only 10k and im a prof pianist who earns more than 2k a month. Being succesfull has a big 'lucky-factor': meeting the right people and having the right mentality to handle the 'talent'.

And about our salary in general: I think we arent supposed to earn/deserve alot of money. We dont have any responsibility (compared to a $80k earning doctor). After all, will people start dying if we press the wrong note?.
Also, we have the luck as a pianist, that we can earn money by doing our hobby! I really think we're very lucky in that way, compared to most jobs.


Gyzzzmo

[Bob]

Hey, Thalberg, I vote for keeping this thread up.  I think it's interesting.

[thalberg]

Hey, Thalberg, I vote for keeping this thread up.  I think it's interesting.

As you wish. 

[n_n]

I find this thread very interesting too. thought i might as well share my story.

I've played the piano since I was little, dreamed to go to music school but did not.

I ended up studying business and managed to get a master degree from a top school right after my 22nd b-day, worked at a Fortune 500 Company for a few years, and now quited my job and decided to devote the rest of my life to music.

The thing is...  I only have $ in my account to provide my living and music related expenses for ONE year. It was a big decision for me. I decided to let all my realistic concerns go to h*ll and just do what I love to do and see what happens next. Partially becos I knew if I absolutely had to, I could easily find a job tons of ppl would admire (except I myself). I only found out later that once you've tasted the "musical life", it's really hard to go back...

My orignal goal was to get into a master program in a year (I've always been practicing)and at the mean time starting my own company. However, nothing's easy. I find that a year's impossible to bring my piano playing to a top conservatory's student's level, and a start-up company takes a lot of energy. Esp. when these 2 time-consuming goals are put together, the possibility of working them both out is minimal. I haven't given up but I am seeking other possibilities now. I promised myself no matter what I do, it should be music related, and my priority will still be trying to get into a master program in piano eventually AND having some sort of income before that happens.

Now, the door to my former career road's wide open (I have tons of calls a day from companies, head hunters, etc.), and I'm just not interested, BUT it is hard for me to find even an entry level music industry job! I tried some artist management companies, even an executive assistant position required a music degree  I'm fine with music history and theory, etc, but still, I guess I'm not qualified! Hello?!  and I certainly saw some CFO level of positions in huge media companies, and of course, I'm not at such senior level yet...  life's being hard on me becos I arrogantly challenged the ordinary sad way of living. Well, I didn't hate it, but certianly wasn't passionate about it as with the piano.

The only regret I have is that I have been spending too much $ in the past few years. If I've been living as modestly as possible, I might have a lot more freedom now. Money is so annoying (i mean not having)...    A good lesson I learned was to save up as much as possible if I'm to work again, just for a better future! (man, my mom'd be so proud of me... She had been criticizing my lavish style of living...) 

That's the end of my story. I'm still trying to figure out my best way of living...

[thalberg]

Interesting story, n_n! 

I hope you find a way to make a living and be happy also.

[rachfan]

Hi thalberg,

I very much agree with your argument.  And it's not just the cost of a music education and a piano; rather, it's also the extremely limited number of opportunities, particularly in performance. 

When I graduated from high school, and also having studied piano for 10 years, I faced this same dilemma being discussed in this thread.  I had achieved, in addition to the usual high school diploma, a second one from the National Guild of Piano Teachers, the Paderewski Gold Medal, a small music scholarship, was a finalist in a regional competition hosted at New England Conservatory of Music, played in the finalists' recital at Boston University, and had just played a successful well-attended solo recital.  So a life in music was certainly a strong attraction to me.  But I tend to be a very practical thinker, even when I was a kid.  I well knew my technical weaknesses and concluded that performance was probably not in the cards for me.  I wasn't too interested in pedagogy--too many headaches. 

So what I did was attend university in a liberal arts program majoring in Political Science (although I did take a number of music courses as electives when I could fit them in).  My parents paid for my undergraduate education.  Upon graduation, I entered the corporate world.  In a few years I earned an MBA degree using the company's tuition refund program which paid for virtually all of it.  And eventually I earned a DBA (Doctor of Business Administration).  For several years I  didn't even own a piano until I bought a used Steinway M--but only doodled around with it.

When I was in my 40s, I bought a new Baldwin L and studied for another 7 years with an artist-teacher, mostly exploring/expanding repertoire.    For years, I regretted the decision in my youth not to go into music; yet I was still realistic about my limitations.  I used to occasionally correspond with my first teacher around the holidays.  She used to tell me how fortunate I was to be successful in my management career, to be well off with a wife and two fine children, and to not be dependent on piano as my livelihood, but instead be able to enjoy my music my avocation rather than vocation.  At first, I was dismissive of her observation.  My life choice to abandon piano for business still haunted me.   But as the years have gone by, I've come to appreciate her assessment and wisdom.  I'm content and reconciled with the life choices I made.  Now I'm retired and have plenty of time to enjoy piano on my own terms in my living room at home.  It doesn't get any better than that!

[thalberg]

Well rachfan,

I think you made absolutely the right decision!  Thanks for sharing.  My situation was a bit different because it was always my ambition to be a teacher right from the start.  But even still, if I had it to do over, I would have done things much more along the lines of how you did them. 

What would really encourage me is if someone had a story like mine, but with a happy ending.....I'm still in the hard part--getting retrained for something new and kicking myself for lost time.  The happy ending isn't here yet for me.

[thalberg]

oh and one other thing--they did a study of all the former contestants of the Cleveland International Piano Competition.  Guess what?  Fully 50% never played the piano again and gave it up entirely.

[rachfan]

I'm not surprised by the Cleveland International competitors forsaking their art and following other pursuits.  Before she passed away, my first teacher (a New England Conservatory grad with over 60 years of private studio teaching and long-standing NGPT member) told me that in her area private teachers were leaving the profession in droves for better opportunities.  Not only is the profession often not sufficiently remunerative, but students these days have so many competing pressures and demands put on them with extracurricula activities etc., that there is nearly no time left for practicing piano.  Because practicing is the sine qua non of piano, they are then doomed to fail and withdraw from lessons adding to the studio teacher's frustrations. 

The artist-teacher I studied with later (MM in Performance from Boston University, and was in the DMA program there) had competition awards, a Carnegie Hall debut behind him, recitalized, continued his piano studies with a prominent artist, etc.  But succeeding in the music business depends on a number of variables including luck.  He used to say that it made him seethe inside.  He finally packed it in, no longer performs, went back to school to take an MA in Mathematics, and now teaches college level math which he enjoys. 

Things like this are discouraging.  All things considered, although it bothered me for a very long time, in retrospect, I'm definitely glad I went into business instead.

[thalberg]

Well, thank you for the story about the person who successfully got into a new and fulfilling career.  It's been hard for me to keep my perspective during this time.  I have to keep telling myself things will get better.

What really hurts for me is that at the age of 19 I began to see that music really wasn't what I ought to be doing, and my teacher worked many hours of overtime convincing me to stay in music through the end of my bachelors degree.  It was her mission or something.  I was a pretty pliable person back then, so her efforts were successful.  Some people regret their own mistakes, which is hard.  But from this experience, I am learning that regretting trusting someone's advice is even more painful than if I had taken the wrong path based on my own judgment.

But, this thread is on the music industry, so I will not digress further.  The things you said, rachfan, are insightful and truthful and the younger generation here will benefit from reading your post.

[rachfan]

I guess that there are different jobs available across the music spectrum where one MIGHT find a livelihood apart from performance.  As to teaching, my impression is that most conservatories and university schools of music expect (for accreditation reasons at the very least) the PhD or DMA.  The person equipped with the MM these days, it seems, has a poor shot at attaining one of those slots at a regionally accreditated institution.  And any new vacancy becomes highly competitive for the PhDs, DMAs and big competition winners as well.  So in that realm, what mostly remains is private studio teaching or instructing in public school systems--with their major frustrations.  Record producers and recording engineers are possibilities, but fewer classical CDs are being turned out these days than previously.  In fact, even the number of "record" labels has shrunk too, as pianists find alternative channels for making and distributing their own CDs.  Collaborative piano (and accompanying) is sometimes a possibility depending on the degree of culture in a particular geography, number of soloists, ensembles and choruses, demand for the service, and the ability to get enough gigs to survive.  Working for a sheetmusic publisher might be a possibility, but there are not all that many firms.  If the person has the right personality, voice and music knowledge beyond just piano, DJ-ing a classical music show for an NPR affilitate might be a possibility, although those positions come available infrequently.  And there is playing for ballet troupes during practice with all its starts and stops.  I'm sure there are other opportunities, but these are some examples.

But back to conservatories and university music schools: Yes, faculty should be brutally honest with students about the very limited number of pianists enjoying "big careers", the sparse number of chairs that open up in symphony orchestras and the intense competition at auditions for those slots, etc.  They should portray it as long odds.  I believe the reason that does not happen is that (and I'll be frank) faculty wants to perpetuate tradition and a system, which includes preserving their own positions.  And those very fortunate few younger PhDs and DMAs who do get to replace retiring faculty fulfill the prophecy and become very visible role models--for a career offering but the very low probability of the potential of the possibility for gaining entry.

However, I don't only condemn music departments.  Years ago when I got an MBA at a presitigious school of business, managers with MBAs were the exception.  As more universities and colleges cashed in on the surging demand for business and management education, tens of thousands of newly minted MBAs flooded the the job markets, literally by the tens of thousands.  The very same phenomenon is true for lawyers.  They too are now a "drug on the market", and legions of very highly qualified graduates fail to penetrate the top law firms, so end up chasing deeds in county court houses.  There again, faculty fails to dwell on those unpleasant realities.  But when alumni become CEOs of companies or managing partners in big law firms, the schools are quick to bask in the glory of having put their stamp on those graduates.  Lastly, consider the sciences like marine biology, for instance.  Students flock to that major including at the graduate level, but only very few find success in entering research in the field, sea aquariums, or landing teaching positions in biology in higher education.  In short, the administration and professoriate impart knowledge as well as encourage and motivate--all the time fully knowing that out in the job markets there is not much room at the inn, nor even much hope.     



 

[nyonyo]

Thalberg,

Why are you keep dwelling in this matter? You have obtained a doctorate degree.
What you need to do is to utilize your degree. Nothing you can change or erase from your life. Take advantage of what you have. Many people do not even have music degree yet they can make decent living. There is no reason for you not to be able to make good money. Stop lurking this web site and set up a goal by the end of 2008, you should have certain number of students.

Why don't you move to California, there are abundance of Asian kids who want to learn piano. Remeber what I said earlier in this thread. Asian kids = tons of monies.
I can even help you to get a job there.

RS

[thalberg]

Stop lurking this web site?     I thought you were my friend.

Honestly I do not intend to dwell.  I am greatly surprised at how long this thread has lived.  It was not intended to live so long.  I started it several months ago when I was debating what career to choose.  Now I am happily in school to become a computer programmer.  No more dwelling.    

(But I will continue lurking  )

[nyonyo]

Yes, I am your friend. I just don't want you to keep regretting to what you had done. As you know, when I made most of my money from teaching, I really wanted to have office work. But now, after doing office job for 10 years, I am looking forward to my retirement and just teach piano. There is so much politics in office and we never know when we will be laid off. We have to keep up with younger guys in order to keep our job. It is very tiring! Piano teaching, however, is way simpler than office work. Just the problem, with piano teaching one must work to make money. With office work, we have a lot of time to goof around if we are not in the mood to work...Just sit and pretend working, but actually we just surf the internet and lurking in this website....hehehehe.

Once again, I did not mean to be harsh to you. I just want you to stop regretting. What you have obtained is great and utilize. By the way, why do you want to become a programmer? All of those jobs have been shipped to India and China. My company just laid off tons of IT people ( I believe about 450 people). Why don't you try medical field?

[leahcim]

Now I am happily in school to become a computer programmer.  No more dwelling.    

You sold the house to pay for the course?

Seriously though, if you want a job programming, I'd pick a field you're interested in and want to do, and go and get a job while they are still around.

You should find it fairly straightforward to get a job as a junior / trainee programmer [or anything else for that matter] with a phd [especially a phd in AFT or AFTAA or even NRISAFTW]

[epf]

Well, I'm probably foolish to add to this long running thread, but here goes nothing.

When I was in college (about a million years ago, or so it seems) I majored in Physics because I intended to work in plasma (high temperature) physics. I minored in music because my father convinced me that there was no money to be made in music unless one was exceptionally talented (far beyond my own meager talents). So, got a BS but only worked in physics for a year (turns out one needed at least a master's or, better still, a doctorate to succeed in plasma physics). Also, I discovered I had more fun "playing" with the computers I used rather than doing the physics stuff (I actually did more work in acoustics and hydrodynamics than physics per se).

Now, many years later, I see that my father was right. As the acting music director in my parish I have been looking to hire a "real" music director. Sadly, in Southern California it's hard for a church to pay a "living wage" to a musician. Most churches pay in the $30,000 to $40,000 per year range. It's hard to live here on that salary, so musicians do a lot of outside gigs: teaching, performance, etc.

And, yes, I've interviewed several people with doctorates and several with BAs and BSs in music. It's hard to make a living as a musician these days. It probably was easier when one had court musicians, court composers -- but it wasn't a life that was easy since you were always on call, always running from day to day teaching, composing, or performing but with little time to call your own.

BTW, I disagree that all IT work has been outsourced -- that's what I still do and have been doing for the last 40 years!

Ed

[nyonyo]

BTW, I disagree that all IT work has been outsourced -- that's what I still do and have been doing for the last 40 years!

Ed

I agree with you NOT all, just MOST of them.

Due to your age (60s), you must be in the high position, therefore, that kind of position cannot be outsourced.

[thalberg]

Yes, Ed, your father was right.  Also, thanks for the encouragement about programming.  My father and his two sisters are programmers, and they say the same things as you--they are not all outsourced.  There are still jobs.

And leachim, I do not know what those abbreviations are--would you explain?

[nyonyo]

Most churches pay in the $30,000 to $40,000 per year range. It's hard to live here on that salary, so musicians do a lot of outside gigs: teaching, performance, etc.


Ed

$30K-$40K is actually not bad considering they just need to work twice a week, one day for choir practice for maybe about 3 hours and on Sunday performs for say 6 hours. For 9 hours worth of working, that amount of money is good.

In regular job, we must work 2080 hours per year, so if someone makes 80K per year, his or her hourly rate only $38/hr =$80,000/2080hr. For the church musician in CA, his hourly rate is $85/hr=$40,000/(9hour/week x52weeks). Assuming that the musician is a music director, therefore, he or she does not need to practice to play the instrument.

The rest of the time that he or she does not work on chuch things can be used to teach or to do other things to make up the rest of money that is needed.

Life is really fair, isn't it.....If regular people need to work 2080 hours to make a living, and so do church musicians....

[thalberg]

$30K-$40K is actually not bad considering they just need to work twice a week, one day for choir practice for maybe about 3 hours and on Sunday performs for say 6 hours. For 9 hours worth of working, that amount of money is good.

In regular job, we must work 2080 hours per year, so if someone makes 80K per year, his or her hourly rate only $38/hr =$80,000/2080hr. For the church musician in CA, his hourly rate is $85/hr=$40,000/(9hour/week x52weeks). Assuming that the musician is a music director, therefore, he or she does not need to practice to play the instrument.

The rest of the time that he or she does not work on chuch things can be used to teach or to do other things to make up the rest of money that is needed.

Life is really fair, isn't it.....If regular people need to work 2080 hours to make a living, and so do church musicians....

I really don't think that's how it works.