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Topic: Being a musician is financially IMPOSSIBLE  (Read 26717 times)

Offline epf

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Re: Being a musician is financially IMPOSSIBLE
Reply #150 on: December 01, 2007, 02:26:05 AM
$30K-$40K is actually not bad considering they just need to work twice a week, one day for choir practice for maybe about 3 hours and on Sunday performs for say 6 hours. For 9 hours worth of working, that amount of money is good.
Actually, that's for a full-time job! This person needs to work with the different music groups, the cantors, the choirs, schedule music, recruit and audition new members, and the list goes on. So, no, not nine hours -- closer to 30-40 hours per week!

Ed

Offline thalberg

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Re: Being a musician is financially IMPOSSIBLE
Reply #151 on: December 01, 2007, 02:27:17 AM
Actually, that's for a full-time job! This person needs to work with the different music groups, the cantors, the choirs, schedule music, recruit and audition new members, and the list goes on. So, no, not nine hours -- closer to 30-40 hours per week!

Ed

See, I knew it.  It's probably even more than that.

Offline nyonyo

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Re: Being a musician is financially IMPOSSIBLE
Reply #152 on: December 01, 2007, 06:19:44 AM
Actually, that's for a full-time job! This person needs to work with the different music groups, the cantors, the choirs, schedule music, recruit and audition new members, and the list goes on. So, no, not nine hours -- closer to 30-40 hours per week!

Ed
Let's analyze your statement....For our analysis, let's use a big Catholic church. Usually they hold 4 to 5 mass on Sunday. If it is in California, they may have one Spanish mass. Most likely, he will not involve in the Spanish mass. Usually, they have their own choir leader who will do everything for free. So this music director will only involve with 4 choir. Out of this 4 choir, the first mass is usually performed by non choir because most of choir members do not want to attend 7am mass.
It leaves him with three mass to take care. Let's say out of these 3 masses, two traditional and one more contemporary mass. Therefore, he needs to conduct two practice a week. Usually, it takes about 2 hours per choir, therefore, he needs to spend 4 hours to practice per week. During the weekday,  there is no singing for daily mass, so he spends no time at all.

Recruiting? Whom will he recruit during the day. Nobody goes to church in the morning or afternoon to have audition to join a choir. In addition, the number of people who are interested in joining choir is exceedingly low. Therefore, the music director should be very thrilled to have somebody who wants to join his choir.

Cantor does not need to be trained, they are usually a professional singer. Scheduling music is done once a month or even once 3 months, say for full one year he spends 24 hours to schedule the music.

Now let's total the numbers of hours
Sunday mass =  3hours x 52 weeks = 156hours
Choir practice = 4 hours x 52 weeks = 208 hours
Audition = 1 hour x 12 months = 12 hours (I do not think the audition takes a long time, if each person takes 5 min, in 12 hours, he can audition 144 people. I do not think there so many people who want to join choir)
Music Scheduling = 24 hours (per year)
Misc activity = 100 hours (to be conservative with the calculation)
Total = 500 hours

Hourly rate = $80/hr ($40,000/500hours).
This is my calculation.

Offline epf

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Re: Being a musician is financially IMPOSSIBLE
Reply #153 on: December 01, 2007, 01:12:46 PM
Let's analyze your statement....For our analysis, let's use a big Catholic church. Usually they hold 4 to 5 mass on Sunday. If it is in California, they may have one Spanish mass. Most likely, he will not involve in the Spanish mass. Usually, they have their own choir leader who will do everything for free. So this music director will only involve with 4 choir. Out of this 4 choir, the first mass is usually performed by non choir because most of choir members do not want to attend 7am mass.

We'll start here since this is a Catholic church. We have five English Masses and 1 Spanish Mass. The Music  director is responsible for selecting the music for five of the six, and works with a team for the seventh. The director works with the different groups that play at each Mass. The adult choir only has one Mass and the director leads the choir for that Mass. He works with the director of one other Mass to ensure their performance and may or may not fill in as an instrumentalist depending on who is there.

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It leaves him with three mass to take care. Let's say out of these 3 masses, two traditional and one more contemporary mass. Therefore, he needs to conduct two practice a week. Usually, it takes about 2 hours per choir, therefore, he needs to spend 4 hours to practice per week. During the weekday,  there is no singing for daily mass, so he spends no time at all.
Except that, as a member of the parish staff he has his paperwork to take care of. This is when he is selecting music, working on budgets, taking care of the sound system and scheduling repairs, scheduling the tuner to come in and tune the piano or getting someone to work on the organ (as needed). He is also working with the liturgy teams to make sure that the liturgies and the music work together.  Now, it's true that he probably will spend no more than 20 hours per week during the weekday.

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Recruiting? Whom will he recruit during the day. Nobody goes to church in the morning or afternoon to have audition to join a choir. In addition, the number of people who are interested in joining choir is exceedingly low. Therefore, the music director should be very thrilled to have somebody who wants to join his choir.
That's when he is contacting the local colleges and universities trying to find qualified musicians and singers who can work in the choir or as cantors. That's when he is working with the other church music directors on issues that are bigger than those faced by a single parish or when they are working on the quarterly get-togethers (both to socialize and to sing and learn). He may also be a member of NPM (the National Pastoral Musicians Association) and have work to do for their meetings.

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Cantor does not need to be trained, they are usually a professional singer. Scheduling music is done once a month or even once 3 months, say for full one year he spends 24 hours to schedule the music.
Cantors do need to be trained. Not only in the Catholic tradition but even more so in the Judaic tradition. Being able to sing is only one part of the function. Learning to lead the people in song, to work with the time delay of an organ in the choir loft and the cantor in the front is not something that is generally covered in a university class.

Quote
Now let's total the numbers of hours
Sunday mass =  3hours x 52 weeks = 156hours
Choir practice = 4 hours x 52 weeks = 208 hours
Audition = 1 hour x 12 months = 12 hours (I do not think the audition takes a long time, if each person takes 5 min, in 12 hours, he can audition 144 people. I do not think there so many people who want to join choir)
Music Scheduling = 24 hours (per year)
Misc activity = 100 hours (to be conservative with the calculation)
Total = 500 hours

Hourly rate = $80/hr ($40,000/500hours).
This is my calculation.
Except that you forgot a whole bunch of things. For instance, Mass time is not just the hour that the Mass takes, the director has to show up early to ensure that everything is ready, has to have the music out and ready, has to stay afterward to discuss things with the choir members/musicians, with the people who want to "suggest" things. Music scheduling you're about right. Currently our audition for choir members is about 15 minutes of singing and discussion. We are constantly recruiting members for the choir. Musicians take a little longer, usually about 30 minutes as we generally have set up and tear down time to consider.

Nope, 30-40 hours per week is about what it takes.

Ed

Offline nyonyo

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Re: Being a musician is financially IMPOSSIBLE
Reply #154 on: December 01, 2007, 03:35:15 PM
Ed,

Your Church makes thing so complicated. My church here is considered one of the most prominent Catholic church in the Midwest. It was featured in the most prominent church in USA. We have Sat Mass, 7am, 9 am, 11am and no Spanish mass at all.

We only one kind of mass. It makes his life easier, only one practice a week for about two hours. In addition, we do not need to keep having audition for new musicians or singers or cantor. What happened to your church that why you need new people all the time?? It seems there are turmoils in your church. If everything is OK, the music directory should not spend a lot of time, because there is no change.

I do not understand why the audition takes so long? Are you hiring professional singers all the time? If you do, no wonder your church cannot afford paying good money to the music director. I used to live in Southern Calif, my church overthere also operates like my current church. That is why I do not see how a music director can have 40 hours worth of work. To me if a music director cannot finish the job within the amount of time like what I showed in my analysis, he or she needs to work smarter.

Offline epf

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Re: Being a musician is financially IMPOSSIBLE
Reply #155 on: December 01, 2007, 03:52:38 PM
Ed,

Your Church makes thing so complicated. My church here is considered one of the most prominent Catholic church in the Midwest. It was featured in the most prominent church in USA. We have Sat Mass, 7am, 9 am, 11am and no Spanish mass at all.
Different cultures, different expectations.

Quote
We only one kind of mass. It makes his life easier, only one practice a week for about two hours. In addition, we do not need to keep having audition for new musicians or singers or cantor. What happened to your church that why you need new people all the time?? It seems there are turmoils in your church. If everything is OK, the music directory should not spend a lot of time, because there is no change.
We have different styles of worship: cantor and organ (two Masses), a contemporary group for one Mass, a Spanish group for one Mass, choir and organ for one Mass and LifeTeen. This is what we have, so this is what we need to work with.

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I do not understand why the audition takes so long? Are you hiring professional singers all the time? If you do, no wonder your church cannot afford paying good money to the music director. I used to live in Southern Calif, my church overthere also operates like my current church. That is why I do not see how a music director can have 40 hours worth of work. To me if a music director cannot finish the job within the amount of time like what I showed in my analysis, he or she needs to work smarter.
Well, let's see -- just because someone can sing some of the modern music does not mean they can sing Palestrina or other types of polyphony, nor does it mean they can sing Gregorian chant and know the church modal music. The same is true of musicians -- I know an excellent jazz pianist who cannot play Bach worth a darn. I can play Bach, but I'm lousy at jazz and ragtime. Also, you have to remember that the music director is part of the parish staff and has assignments that range beyond "music" and all that implies.

I guess one other thing needs to be said here: your experience is not the only experience. What you have experienced others may not and vice versa. Certainly my experiences are not yours, and trying to equate them is dangerous at best.

Ed

Offline nyonyo

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Re: Being a musician is financially IMPOSSIBLE
Reply #156 on: December 01, 2007, 06:32:38 PM
The bottom line is that a music director needs to work smartly so that he or she can focus on the quality instead of providing unending types of choir. There is in no way for a person to handle all of those things with good quality. No wonder, it becomes out of hand. People become unhappy, and you end up need to hire people all the time (as you mentioned in your earlier reply).

The Saint Dennis Church in Diamond Bar, CA and also The Holy Family Church in Inverness IL, they have the same musicians, singers, etc for YEARS. They do not keep changing. During my 12 years in Saint Dennis, they changed only once. The music director left, and his people followed him. Other than that, they have the same people.

Things need to be kept simple. Two types of choir are good enough. A combination of balance music is needed in order to satify most people in the church. The music director has the control over this. As long as the music is not extreme (all Gregorian, all rock style, all jazz style), people will not complain.

Once again, I think you may want to see why the turn over of your musician and singer is so high that make you do the hiring all the time and train them all the time.

Offline thalberg

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Re: Being a musician is financially IMPOSSIBLE
Reply #157 on: December 01, 2007, 07:17:53 PM
Nyonyo, being a musician is always really time consuming no matter what job you have.  That's just how it is.

Offline epf

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Re: Being a musician is financially IMPOSSIBLE
Reply #158 on: December 01, 2007, 08:07:52 PM
The bottom line is that a music director needs to work smartly so that he or she can focus on the quality instead of providing unending types of choir. There is in no way for a person to handle all of those things with good quality. No wonder, it becomes out of hand. People become unhappy, and you end up need to hire people all the time (as you mentioned in your earlier reply).
You and I seem to have a different definition of what a music director is. That's the job we have, and it's what the director must do. Our last director left us because he found a job six minutes from home instead of 35 minutes away. That's important when you have a new baby. The previous director was with us for many years before leaving.

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The Saint Dennis Church in Diamond Bar, CA and also The Holy Family Church in Inverness IL, they have the same musicians, singers, etc for YEARS. They do not keep changing. During my 12 years in Saint Dennis, they changed only once. The music director left, and his people followed him. Other than that, they have the same people.
We're just down the road from St. Dennis (St. Joseph in Placentia) and have had many choir members for years. However, we are also getting a lot of musicians from Cal State Fullerton and, when they graduate, they move on. No secret there -- they can't afford to live in Orange County or they want to do graduate work (we've had three cantors go study in Europe). That's real life...

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Things need to be kept simple. Two types of choir are good enough. A combination of balance music is needed in order to satify most people in the church. The music director has the control over this. As long as the music is not extreme (all Gregorian, all rock style, all jazz style), people will not complain.
But we have a mix that our parish likes. It's what the pastor wants, it's what the people want and, therefore, we have to meet their needs. Your comment that "two types of choir are good enough" is simply not our reality.

Quote
Once again, I think you may want to see why the turn over of your musician and singer is so high that make you do the hiring all the time and train them all the time.
As I said, a big part is that we get students from the university who move one when they graduate. We bring in new musicians because we do want quality music. Period.

Ed

Offline leahcim

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Re: Being a musician is financially IMPOSSIBLE
Reply #159 on: December 03, 2007, 01:41:02 PM
And leachim, I do not know what those abbreviations are--would you explain?

Sure.

"You should find it fairly straightforward to get a job as a junior / trainee programmer [or anything else for that matter] with a phd [especially a phd in AFT or AFTAA or even NRISAFTW]"


AFT = A phd in anything. I can't remember what the F was for now  :D
AFTAA, A phd in anything at all. I think the F was the same as above

Finally
NRISAFTW meant something like No, really I'm serious anything whatsoever. Once again the F is a mystery.

I think the point I was trying to make was that, if you've got a phd you're more than overqualified for getting a job whatever the phd happens to be in.

You seem to like puzzles. Don't google use them to recruit? They've more money than sense and are open to an stupid idea they can throw lots of storage at - you might be as well to create a website and hope they buy it for a few $billion and spend the money before the (c) lawyers sue you both into oblivion :)

Offline nyonyo

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Re: Being a musician is financially IMPOSSIBLE
Reply #160 on: December 03, 2007, 03:46:33 PM
Thalberg,

Putting your PhD in your resume can be good and not good.
Some people will think that you are crazy and will not even bother to bring you for the interview. On the other hand some will appreaciate. It is hard to tell, it really depends on the person who reviews your resume.

But there is always one question that everbody will be very curious if you put your PhD in the resume "Why does a person who has a PhD want to do entry level job?". It is just hard to explain the oddness. If you only put your bachelor degree, they can over look the fact easily. You can just tell them that you want a new career because you don't find teaching piano is chanllenging any more for you(or something like that).

Offline jlh

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Re: Being a musician is financially IMPOSSIBLE
Reply #161 on: December 04, 2007, 10:02:04 AM
Thalberg,

Putting your PhD in your resume can be good and not good.
Some people will think that you are crazy and will not even bother to bring you for the interview. On the other hand some will appreaciate. It is hard to tell, it really depends on the person who reviews your resume.

But there is always one question that everbody will be very curious if you put your PhD in the resume "Why does a person who has a PhD want to do entry level job?". It is just hard to explain the oddness. If you only put your bachelor degree, they can over look the fact easily. You can just tell them that you want a new career because you don't find teaching piano is chanllenging any more for you(or something like that).


Thalberg doesn't have a PhD. ;)
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Offline thalberg

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Re: Being a musician is financially IMPOSSIBLE
Reply #162 on: December 04, 2007, 04:06:19 PM
Thalberg doesn't have a PhD. ;)

Not even my parents yet understand that a DMA is not a PhD.  It seems like the hardest thing in the world for people to grasp.

Offline nyonyo

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Re: Being a musician is financially IMPOSSIBLE
Reply #163 on: December 04, 2007, 04:42:52 PM
Not even my parents yet understand that a DMA is not a PhD.  It seems like the hardest thing in the world for people to grasp.

People just use generic name which means doctorate level.

Offline thalberg

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Re: Being a musician is financially IMPOSSIBLE
Reply #164 on: December 04, 2007, 05:32:42 PM
People just use generic name which means doctorate level.

I understand, that is why I simply do not correct people when they call it a PhD.  I know what they intended, so why bother.  I was simply responding to jlh.

However, people do understand that medical doctors don't have PhDs--they have MDs.  So there's one example.

But I have even had people tell me--"Music?  You can get a doctorate in that?  I mean, can't you just learn it all in a year?"

Offline nyonyo

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Re: Being a musician is financially IMPOSSIBLE
Reply #165 on: December 04, 2007, 07:19:42 PM
I understand, that is why I simply do not correct people when they call it a PhD.  I know what they intended, so why bother.  I was simply responding to jlh.

However, people do understand that medical doctors don't have PhDs--they have MDs.  So there's one example.

But I have even had people tell me--"Music?  You can get a doctorate in that?  I mean, can't you just learn it all in a year?"

Some people just do not have the ability to intrepret what other people mean....

Offline joyfulmusic

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Re: Being a musician is financially IMPOSSIBLE
Reply #166 on: July 31, 2008, 02:31:30 PM
I teach my students when they are preparing for college level studies to include a financial vision in their plans.  Find out how much one can make doing what one wants to do.  I even encourage them to write up a vision of their entire quality of life they are seeking.  The starving musician paradigm has been in the general consciousness for way too long.  The authentic life can and does include fulfillment of creativity and musical gifts and abundance.  I have paid my dues, divorcing a man after 29 years of poverty lifestyle.  After raising three children with him, I had to take out a mortgage to give him $65,000 to keep my home.  I have learned to apply myself to financial issues just as well as music.  That was only three years ago.  Now I am worth more in three years than I ever was married.  I teach piano and vocal coach.  There is always always always a demand for quality.  I am a hell of an instructor.  And son of a gun, I'm pretty darn good at making money too.  Musicians, and everyone, must include financial education in their process.

Offline buckholtz

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Re: Being a musician is financially IMPOSSIBLE
Reply #167 on: August 29, 2008, 11:00:55 AM
Hmmm.  I totally believe this depends on where you live.  Every state of the union has a different standard for living.  Some places here in Georgia stink economically.  Picking cans up on the side of the road will make you more money than a doctorate in anything.  :P 

I made a living here in Macon, Georgia for about 5 years.  My first year as a record producer here I made 25k.  The next year, with referals and advertising, about 50k and so on.  All of a sudden we get a new mayor and BLAM! :o  Just about the entire city fell apart.  It was as if our downtown inner city was evacuated!  It became a ghost town.  There were tons of job losses.  No more folks to support their dreams of becoming performing artists.  I still have my talents as a record producer but, if I want to survive, I've got to go where the work is.  I know it seems nomad-ish but, I haven't figured out a more stable way. 

And no.  I don't have a formal music education.  I went the Hollywood route and spent time with some of the music industries most elite producers and songwriters.  That's how I learned.  I would love to be offered a teaching job!  I would love that!  I'd even do music marketing and consultation because I understand a lot about the inner workings of the "new" viral Internet/YouTube music industry.  Just not sure where to place my physical body in order for that to happen. :P

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Offline cmg

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Re: Being a musician is financially IMPOSSIBLE
Reply #168 on: August 29, 2008, 08:07:51 PM


I'd even do music marketing and consultation because I understand a lot about the inner workings of the "new" viral Internet/YouTube music industry.  Just not sure where to place my physical body in order for that to happen. :P

www.MySpace.com/buckholtz_mike

I live in NYC and know of people in the music marketing biz.  Actually, your qualifications for such a career sound perfect, given your background.  My sources tell me LA and NYC are the areas where this kind of work exists. 

See if you can track down headhunters for the field and get your resume to them.  Firms like Nokia, for one, are into this new area, so maybe contact them. 
Current repertoire:  "Come to Jesus" (in whole-notes)

Offline buckholtz

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Re: Being a musician is financially IMPOSSIBLE
Reply #169 on: August 30, 2008, 01:15:37 AM
I live in NYC and know of people in the music marketing biz.  Actually, your qualifications for such a career sound perfect, given your background.  My sources tell me LA and NYC are the areas where this kind of work exists. 

See if you can track down headhunters for the field and get your resume to them.  Firms like Nokia, for one, are into this new area, so maybe contact them. 

Thnx!!  I will!  That sounds like something I can do.  I'm extremely interested in this this field.  If anyone can network with me, allowing closer contact with LA and NYC connects, I'd be very grateful.  :D
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Offline loonbohol

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Re: Being a musician is financially IMPOSSIBLE
Reply #170 on: September 27, 2008, 05:33:13 AM
I think that composing is a good idea.


Cost :                         Bachelor=100k
                       Then each composition.
                          $70- Novice composer.
                          $500-good band vocals of not that famous.
                          $1250~2500-Incidental music of not so famous films
                          $2500+ when you are famous
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Offline pianisten1989

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Re: Being a musician is financially IMPOSSIBLE
Reply #171 on: September 27, 2008, 07:44:20 PM
Well.. You probably hav to work a lot. Like being a teacher while being a student. In that way, you'll pay atleast the rent of where you're living. You can probably arrange some concerts now and then, to earn som extra and pay some of the school-costs. Uhmm... yeah, get a billion schoolarships (whatever you can get, not only music). In that way you can get lots of money duing the education. And if you live with your parents as long as posible, you wont lose a bit less...

Offline richard black

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Re: Being a musician is financially IMPOSSIBLE
Reply #172 on: September 27, 2008, 09:24:21 PM
Quote
I think that composing is a good idea.


Cost :                         Bachelor=100k
                       Then each composition.
                          $70- Novice composer.
                          $500-good band vocals of not that famous.
                          $1250~2500-Incidental music of not so famous films
                          $2500+ when you are famous

I doubt anyone who set out to become a composer for purely financial reasons was ever a success at it. You do it because you are really full of ideas and simply must get them out and performed. If a lot of people like the results you may become rich (and of course it doesn't hurt if you're financially and practically astute - look at Andrew Lloyd Webber), but you set out on the path for other reasons, or not at all. And incidentally, if you are a composer no one could care less if you have a bachelor (or other) degree: all that matters is that your music is attractive to people for some reason.
Instrumentalists are all wannabe singers. Discuss.

Offline Bob

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Re: Being a musician is financially IMPOSSIBLE
Reply #173 on: September 27, 2008, 09:30:47 PM
:D  You're assuming you actually have to pay off those student loans.  You could make the minimum payment... forever!  Then the 100K doesn't seem so intimidating.
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